Why Liberals Separate Race from Class

[Catherina]

This is worth reading in entirety. Snips don't do this justice

Why Liberals Separate Race from Class

The tendency to divorce racial disparities from economic inequality has a long liberal lineage.
by Touré F. Reed


Demonstrators in the June 1968 Poor People's March in Washington, DC. Warren K. Leffler / Library of Congress

The horizontal organization of Black Lives Matter ensures a diversity of perspectives among participants and even branches. Nevertheless, the now-commonplace claim at the heart of the recent Black Lives Matter protests against Sanders is that white liberals have long reduced racism to class inequality in order to deflect attention from racial disparities.

This is not just wrong, but the formulation — which ultimately treats race as unchanging and permanent rather than a product of specific historical and political economic relations — undermines both the cause of racial equality in general and pursuit of equitable treatment in the criminal justice system in particular.
...

But by the 1950s, the anticommunism of the Cold War had a chilling effect on class-oriented civil rights politics, setting the stage for analyses of racism that divorced prejudice from economic exploitation — the fundamental reason for slavery and Jim Crow. Indeed, this was the era in which racism was recast as a psychological affliction rather than a product of political economy.

...

This is why the March on Washington demands included not just anti-discrimination measures, but a full-employment economy, jobs programs, and a minimum-wage increase. Randolph and Rustin would go on to ally with economist Leon Keyserling to draft the 1966 Freedom Budget For All, which laid out a plan for social-democratic policies addressing black poverty by confronting its ultimate source — the erosion of well-paying jobs for low-skilled workers that had once served as the pathway to the middle class for white people.

...

If one views the excesses and failures of the criminal justice system solely through the lens of race, then victims of police brutality and prosecutorial misconduct tend to be black or Latino. However, if one understands race and class are inextricably linked, then the victims of police brutality are not simply black or Latino (and Latinos outnumber blacks in federal prisons at this point) but they tend to belong to groups that lack political, economic, and social influence and power.

From that vantage point, the worldview expressed by Johnson and others misses the mark and falls into the same trap that, ironically, liberals have offered a stratum of credentialed black Americans for decades: opportunity within a market-driven political and economic framework that disparages demands for social and economic justice for all (including most black people) as socialist, communist, un-American, or even class-reductionist.

https://www.jacobinmag.com/2015/08/bernie-sanders-black-lives-matter-civil-rights-movement/

[Wounded Bear]

1. This is a good read...K & R...

Well thought out column.

[AuntPatsy]

2. Good understanding of this explosive issue that seems to have been influenced ...

[AOR]

3. Good read Catherina...

[malaise]

4. Thanks Catherina

Long time no see

[starroute]

5. It's all true, but that doesn't make it wrong to focus on racism

Capitalism is built on exploitation of the poor and powerless. In the US, that has mainly meant poor black people. Racism is a way of sweeping that fact under the rug -- either through the racist arguments that black people are poor because they're lazy/stupid/inferior or through the "you can't change people's hearts" way of implying that racism is wrong but there's not much you can do about it.

But if you stop taking racism as a given and start thinking about what needs to be done to eliminate it, you immediately come up against the problem of exploitation. And the only ways to end black exploitation are either by substituting some other oppressed minority -- which would be morally unacceptable to almost everyone at this point -- or by moving towards an economic system that doesn't require exploitation to wring profit out of what would otherwise be a healthy, self-sustaining system.

So by all means, let's strive for racial justice -- but let's also look beyond that to the larger context.

[navarth]

7. +1

[Catherina]

11. Of course not, we agree on that

and so does the author, but to focus on race alone, while excluding the economics because the many levels above the most brutally exploited don't what to give up what they "got", is a disservice to fighting racism.

Stokely Carmichael, the genius who coined the term institutional racism and explained it in depth, wrote extensively about this. You can't separate the two because they're joined at the hip. I think you can focus on one or the other at a given time but eventually you end up focusing on the other also. You said it much better "But if you stop taking racism as a given and start thinking about what needs to be done to eliminate it, you immediately come up against the problem of exploitation. "

I don't think we disagree, or the author either, especially in light of your last sentence.

[socialist_n_TN]

36. Agree with both of you........

And welcome back Catherina!

[Catherina]

39. Hi my friend!

I must say I'm delighted that Sanders' candidacy is bringing up these important issues and that obviously enough people had been giving them serious thought.

[socialist_n_TN]

42. Yep. I really do believe that was his first goal with his candidacy........

Now that he's drawing supporters, the job is to turn those supporters into revolutionaries. Or at least into a mass anti-austerity/anti-neoliberal movement.

[Catherina]

61. If so, I hope the movement is sound enough in basic theory

to stay strong

[mmonk]

6. Recommended.

Jacobin Mag is one of my usual reads.

[RufusTFirefly]

18. Another Jacobin fan

I probably don't read it as regularly as you do, mmonk, but whenever I decide to read it, I'm almost always glad I did.

[mmonk]

35. .

[hifiguy]

8. Bookmarked for later.

Looks most interesting.

[OneGrassRoot]

9. K&R...thank you! n/t

[Baitball Blogger]

10. I could be wrong, but didn't some Black American DUers

try to separate the BLM movement from economic equality? I remember having a difference of opinion with someone who felt the two were separate issues . I argued that the only way that minorities will be able to find a true egalitarian society is to change the demographics of the status quo. The only way to do that is through economic equality.

[Catherina]

14. Not all Black DUers, just a few who claim to speak for everyone

Last edited Sat Aug 22, 2015, 09:01 PM - Edit history (1)

and the loudest ones agitating and separating the two weren't even Black, just helping hands looking to exploit any opening they can to denigrate a rich Black tradition of fighting for social, civil and economic justice.

I refer you to a wonderful thread "I am happy Bernie Sanders added a Racism and Racial Justice plank...however" by Noiretextatique, one of the most consistent, Black, left voices on this forum for years.

In it she posted an article "Without Economic and Educational Justice, There Is No Racial Justice"

You'll notice how studiously her thread was ignored by some prominent white Clinton supporters flinging mud at Sanders because he refuses to separate the two.

[Baitball Blogger]

20. Thank you for the response.

Last edited Sat Aug 22, 2015, 10:02 PM - Edit history (1)

I live in an elitist white community and I know how they game the system. It's all about political access and economic rewards.

If we are committed to supporting an equalitarian society we need to start recognizing that there is a polarity in their discriminatory practices. One end uses excessive police force to disrupt the lives of minorities. The other end uses tribalism and hubris to directly undermine the rights of minorities by excluding them from the decision-making process in their own communities.

[Catherina]

22. +1000 "It's all about political access and economic rewards" n/t

[Dragonfli]

26. There is a reason for D politicians Who have adopted a hybrid theory of governance

to try to separate the two, for the followers of this hybrid Democratic path (first proposed by the DLC/Third Way branch of the party), It is important to support (or at least appear to support) certain social issues in order to retain some key demographic votes with long ties to the party while embracing a neoliberal approach to fiscal policies, free trade, and privatization.

Their theory simply was/is to adopt certain policies they felt would gain votes from the Reagan supporting Demographic (and also attract large donations from special interests that prosper from neoliberal policies) while keeping the minority, feminist and LGBT vote.

To see supporters of such politicians twist themselves in knots to separate the two falls neatly within the game plan. It is hard to say if vocal supporters of candidates that follow the hybrid path do so deliberately or unwittingly. I imagine that would depend on the individual.

It is the only way they can win, they need the minority vote but they are fiscally committed to right wing policies that lead directly to income inequality and economic injustice. They have in fact already lead us with help from the extreme right wing Republicans directly to a new gilded age we "enjoy" that is reaching Dickensian proportions.

The Left is just a hated thorn in their side at this point and economic populism is the threat they fear the most.
They must divide us along social and economic lines in order to conquer us.

Hence the barrage of attempts (some of them rather nasty) to separate issues that are really two parts of a whole needed for both the social and economic equality that is required if we are to have a healthy happy and just society.

I wrote an OP once that explained these hybrids for those less aware of the party's history and the rise of this faction.

New Democrats, The DLC and the Third Way

Here is a relevant snip:

....After the landslide electoral losses to Ronald Reagan in the 1980s, a group of prominent Democrats began to believe their party was in need of a radical shift in economic policy and ideas of governance. The Democratic Leadership Council (DLC) was founded in 1985 by Al From and a group of like-minded politicians and strategists. They advocated a political "Third Way" as a method to achieve the electoral successes of Reaganism by adopting similar economic policies (Reagan Democrats and Moderate Republicans would provide burgeoning new constituencies after adding these new economic policies and politicians to our tent they contended) While hoping to retain, woman, minorities and other social issues allies with long ties to the party. Such would be their new Democratic coalition forged between fiscal right and social left under the "New" Democratic banner. The DLC disbanded in 2011 during an apparent re-branding of the New Democrat movement when money ties to the Koch bros. and Koch representatives placed on the DLC's board embarrassingly became common knowledge among the Democratic left...

Good to see you again, it has been a while my friend, excellent OP by the way.

[Catherina]

28. As if I didn't love you enough already! Thanks 4 an astute, awesome post

It is important to support (or at least appear to support) certain social issues in order to retain some key demographic votes with long ties to the party while embracing a neoliberal approach to fiscal policies, free trade, and privatization.

Their theory simply was/is to adopt certain policies they felt would gain votes from the Reagan supporting Demographic (and also attract large donations from special interests that prosper from neoliberal policies) while keeping the minority, feminist and LGBT vote.

...

economic populism is the threat they fear the most. They must divide us along social and economic lines in order to conquer us.

It's great to see you again, still fighting the great fight for justice.

[Baitball Blogger]

30. Token support for minorities, is what it boils down to.

You can't say that the neo-liberals and their small government co-conspirators haven't learned something from Title 8. At least for the last decade they have shown they are very adept at finding just the right token minority to dispel any appearance of discrimination. But even if that person is committed to Civil Right causes, he will always find more offers to improve his own personal financial position, than opportunities to really make a difference in the world.

[stranger81]

67. This deserves to be its own OP.

Your first and second paragraphs drive right to the heart of the matter.

[kwassa]

32. You're wrong. Almost all black DUers disagree with this type of analysis.

Most black Americans would also disagree with this analysis.

[Baitball Blogger]

60. How are you going to change the Police Department's antagonistic process,

Last edited Sun Aug 23, 2015, 02:08 PM - Edit history (1)

if you don't first eliminate the public perceptions that drive it? It's easier to see how all the moving pieces work together when you study a small town culture.

In small towns you get the full picture. Length and width. Specifically, you can see how the white elite game the system, skirting the laws to enrich friends, family and business associates. No one will stop them. Not the FBI, the state attorneys office and especially not the police department. That's because their mission is generally defined by the status quo in the community. In other words, their salary is paid by the very same people who will wilt like a flower when they see a PoC walk down their streets.

So, in order to redefine the mission, you have to redefine the status quo.

Personally, I think "shadow government" is more appropriate. The fact that this backwater construct still exists today defies common sense because our American identity is founded on the concept of equality. In contrast, the status quo's purpose is to retain power, and resist change.

I can use a small town culture to demonstrate how they resist change. Keep in mind that the status quo is a socially constructed monster. It grows whenever its turf is threatened. It can pull in new members for the most inane of reasons. For example, if there is someone in the community who presents a challenge to their power, they will respond by pulling all the stops to watch that individual. That can mean increased police surveillance or it can mean contacting neighbors to ask for their assistance. Sometimes it might even involve asking for permission to use a driveway to station a car. (As a side note, when they are asking the gullible neighbor for this favor, they are not just asking for a favor, they are also forcing him to take a side.)

The purpose behind watching the house is not just an intimidation tactic, but also serves to observe who this person is socializing with to stop any political challenges before they begin.

Given this hostile environment I am asking you, how are you going to find allies, how are you going to grow a political movement when the entire system is set up to frustrate you before you even start?

So, do you see how we are all being stymied on both ends of this social experiment? In sum, the key to change is to change the demographics of the status quo. That's the only way to make our criminal justice system more egalitarian in their mission statements. We will get their faster together, with a strategy supported by the BLM and a push for economic equality.

[kwassa]

77. Public perceptions are being changed about the police. That is what BLM ....

has accomplished, to focus public perception on police killings of minorities. Because of their activism, every incident is now pounced upon by both mass media and the Internet.

and the basic technological change of putting cameras on the police officers themselves makes them totally accountable for the first time in history. No longer are their interactions with citizens private. No longer is it a policeman's word against a citizen's word in front of a judge.

This is what will change things.

[noiretextatique]

72. how can you possibly know what most black americans think?

or most black DUers? i posted a similar thread about this: i believe racism and economic injustice are inextricably linked.

[kwassa]

74. I know a lot of black people. Don't you?

I don't think socialism is a sell anywhere but in a small subset of black America.

As to black DUers, I could be wrong, but you are the only black Sanders supporter I know on DU. Correct me if I am wrong.

I think racism and economic injustice are intertwined, but that the proximate cause of economic injustice towards black Americans is not capitalism, but racism.

[noiretextatique]

78. how about common sense?

i experience far less racism than a poor black person with limited education. the black person i am talking about is the one that chris rock and others love the make fun of and differentiate themselves from. and since you know a lot of black people, you know what i am talking about. socialism will be a tough sell, but common sense isn't such a tough sell, especially if people stop screaming SOCIALISM, when the alternative is more waiting for the magic moment when hearts and minds change. the problem for most of us in america is vulture capitalism and oliogarchy, which continues to increase the ever-widening gap between the 1% and the rest of us. that's not a theoretical situation: it is the current reality. bernie sanders is talking about fairness...nothing more. i think it is high time black people, the most loyal democratic demographic, get something other than lip service from the democratic party. and "doing something about racism" is not on the top of my list. i'd like to see some jobs programs, some investment in schools, and more affordable housing. it would be great to get some changes in police procedures and and other changes in the criminal justice system too. even if bernie doesn't win the nomination, he will certainly force the nominee to address some issues. especially now that his new press secretary is working to incorporate BLM into his campaign.

[kwassa]

81. There is no way Sanders will not be painted as a socialist.

That is his Achilles heel, for most Americans, because socialism is a half-step from communism in the mind of most Americans. Most Americans have no idea what socialism or communism is, but still think them very bad things.

What really has to be sold to those Americans who are not progressives is that this capitalist oligarchy exists, because the dominant story over the past couple of decades is that our entrepreneurs and capitalists are our greatest heroes.

[m-lekktor]

51. yeah the ones who claim all AA's hate other AA critics of Obama.

I know for certain I don't speak for all teh gays!!

[beam me up scottie]

12. K & R

Really glad you're back, Catherina.

[Catherina]

23. Thanks. I'm glad to be back too

[Beartracks]

13. Very good analysis; makes sense of a lot of things. n/t

[LWolf]

15. This webpage is not available

ERR_SSL_VERSION_OR_CIPHER_MISMATCH

I would love to read the rest, but the link doesn't work for me.

Maybe I'll try another browser.

Meanwhile, thanks for this.

[Catherina]

16. Are you using Chrome?

If you can't get to it, let me know and I'll PM it to you. Also, here's the cache link if that helps: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:QBQBjBOnd0oJ:https://www.jacobinmag.com/2015/08/bernie-sanders-black-lives-matter-civil-rights-movement/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk

[LWolf]

19. I WAS using chrome;

Firefox worked, and I got to read the whole thing.

I have to say, it was well worth it, and I plan to dive back in and read it again.

Of course, as someone older, who remembers a bit about the earlier civil rights movement, this resonated with me. It makes sense to me, where Johnson's assertions did not.

Not that I can claim much; I was a child. I did hear the (white) adults in my family discussing it, and they were in full support.

I want to be open-minded. I want to listen, and give other people the benefit of the doubt for their pov. And, as a caucasion, no matter my experiences with black friends, family, co-workers, neighbors, and other acquaintances, I'm on the outside looking in.

So the disruptions have caused quite a bit of introspection on my part, and that's a good thing. One of the things that I realized is this: I wasn't paying as much attention as I should have been. And that's shameful. It was all at a distance; not liking racial injustices, and wishing they didn't exist, is simply not the same as stepping up to the plate in solidarity. So, for me, the disruptions have served a purpose. I'm paying attention.

That said, I still think that social and economic justice are linked, and need to be addressed at the same time.

One thing from this article that I didn't know, or if I did, had relegated to the cluttered storage closet of my brain, was that earlier civil rights leaders argued for keeping racial and economic justice linked.

Thanks for sharing this!

[Catherina]

25. I'm glad FF worked

but more than that, thanks for such an eloquent response. Because I was so impressed with Prof Reed's article, I just ordered a book you might be interested in.

Not Alms but Opportunity

The Urban League and the Politics of Racial Uplift, 1910-1950

By Touré F. Reed



Illuminating the class issues that shaped the racial uplift movement, Touré Reed explores the ideology and policies of the national, New York, and Chicago Urban Leagues during the first half of the twentieth century. Reed argues that racial uplift in the Urban League reflected many of the class biases pervading contemporaneous social reform movements, resulting in an emphasis on behavioral, rather than structural, remedies to the disadvantages faced by Afro-Americans.

Reed traces the Urban League's ideology to the famed Chicago School of Sociology. The Chicago School offered Leaguers powerful scientific tools with which to foil the thrust of eugenics. However, Reed argues, concepts such as ethnic cycle and social disorganization and reorganization led the League to embrace behavioral models of uplift that reflected a deep circumspection about poor Afro-Americans and fostered a preoccupation with the needs of middle-class blacks. According to Reed, the League's reform endeavors from the migration era through World War II oscillated between projects to "adjust" or even "contain" unacculturated Afro-Americans and projects intended to enhance the status of the Afro-American middle class. Reed's analysis complicates the mainstream account of how particular class concerns and ideological influences shaped the League's vision of group advancement as well as the consequences of its endeavors.

http://uncpress.unc.edu/browse/book_detail?title_id=1520

This is the first book I know of that examines the consequences of those economic biases. Chapters 4-6 are about the Urban League's relationship with organized labor so you know I want to read that!

[LWolf]

31. Oh, no.

You don't know me, so you had no idea that I have about 5,000 books, not counting what's on the kindle, and a pile about 20 high I'm working on, and I can't ever seem to resist adding to that pile.

I will add it.

[Catherina]

62. I'll send you an extra duster

[LWolf]

64. Okay.

I put it on my kindle so the hard copy pile doesn't topple.

[RufusTFirefly]

17. Excellent read. Recommended.

Thanks for posting, Catherina!

[DirkGently]

21. Great read. I have felt this needed saying

but didn't feel I was the one to say it.

Nicely done.

[nashville_brook]

24. cogent, drama-free analysis of the realities of change.

thank you!

[slipslidingaway]

27. Bookmarking for later, thank you :) n/t

[Gormy Cuss]

29. Interesting read.

Although I have a few quibbles with the author (he totally mischaracterized HOPE VI and he calls centrist Democrats "centrist liberals, " an oxymoron if ever there were one) I agree with him that social and economic justice are inextricably connected. Where I disagree is that I think the efforts to separate them were a conservative and centrist notion, not one of liberals. I've never liked the shift towards centrist politics in the Democratic party and it's one of the reasons I'm not fond of having another Clinton as the candidate.

What I find unsettling are not those who focus solely on social justice, it's the ones who want to ignore that and focus solely on economic justice as if there isn't still a massive, racist, elephant in the room.

[Catherina]

38. Class and race operate both separately and together to impoverish people.

Class and race operate both separately and together to impoverish people. Racism does not explain everything. The greatest leaders of the civil rights movement understood that. Martin Luther King Jr understood it which is why he was focusing on economic issues and anti-capitalism before he was assassinated.



It is impossible to work for economic justice without combating racism but it is entirely possible to focus on racism and ignore economic justice. That's very convenient for maintaining the status quo of economic injustice - blame it on an "attitude". That's why the whitewashed version of civil rights taught in schools totally leaves out, or barely mentions, how civil rights leaders tied economic issues to the struggle.

I think the problem is that many people in America think that racism is an attitude. And this is encouraged by the capitalist system. So they think that what people think is what makes them a racist. Racism is not an attitude.

If a white man wants to lynch me, that’s his problem. If he’s got the power to lynch me, that’s my problem. Racism is not a question of attitude; it’s a question of power.

Racism gets its power from capitalism. Thus, if you’re anti-racist, whether you know it or not, you must be anti-capitalist. The power for racism, the power for sexism, comes from capitalism, not an attitude.

You cannot be a racist without power. You cannot be a sexist without power. Even men who beat their wives get this power from the society which allows it, condones it, encourages it. One cannot be against racism, one cannot be against sexism, unless one is against capitalism.

— Stokely Carmichael, in answer to a question about racism and sexism

Brother Malcolm put it more succinctly

"You can't have racism without capitalism. If you find antiracists, usually they're socialists or their political philosophy is that of socialism."

— Malcolm X

[sabrina 1]

45. I don't see anyone here separating the two. Well, let me correct that. I DO see people here

attempting to dismiss Economic Equality as proposed by Sen. Sanders for minorities, attempting to separate it from racism. Arguing eg, that 'economic equality won't cure racism'. So, let's not empower the oppressed by ensuring econ0omic justice, is their argument. Let's ignore the fact that it is the POOR who fill our despicable Private Prison complexes.

So yes, there are those who have tried to separate the two.

[Gormy Cuss]

46. I see people here who almost reflexively try to shift a racial injustice topic into an economic one

It's as tiresome as those who try to shift #BLM into "all lives matter."

And quite frankly, it's doubly tiresome to see either from supporters of Democratic candidates. If I wanted to be part of a party of division, distraction, and deflection I'd be a GOPer.

[sabrina 1]

48. What's really tiresome is to see such an enormous issue, ignored mostly by the same people

who have suddenly become 'concerned' but were nowhere to be found over the past number of years, being used for political purposes. This didn't just start when primary season began. Though it sure is getting a whole lot more attention than the Ferguson protests received from those who have suddenly found the issue.

No issue as big as this should ever be used as a political football. I am willing to bet that after the election, many of the 'concerned' will no longer be so concerned. That has been the pattern in every election, and how exactly has anything changed again?

[kwassa]

33. This analysis is mistaken, of course. It is, of course, from a socialist magazine ....

And reflects that belief system.

The horizontal organization of Black Lives Matter ensures a diversity of perspectives among participants and even branches. Nevertheless, the now-commonplace claim at the heart of the recent Black Lives Matter protests against Sanders is that white liberals have long reduced racism to class inequality in order to deflect attention from racial disparities.

This is not just wrong, but the formulation — which ultimately treats race as unchanging and permanent rather than a product of specific historical and political economic relations — undermines both the cause of racial equality in general and pursuit of equitable treatment in the criminal justice system in particular.

Now, these two paragraphs make no sense at all. Nothing in what BLM has said treats race as unchanging and permanent. This author just made that up. Even if it was true, the conclusion he draws cannot be drawn from what he just said.

Indeed, Sanders is more likely to draw links between economic inequality generally and racial disparities in employment, housing, wealth and incarceration than President Carter, the Clintons, or even President Obama.

That is fine, but that is not what BLM is talking about. They are talking about racism as the SOURCE of income inequality for black people, not income equality as the source of racism. One can't treat income inequality for minorities without addressing the racism that started and kept it in place for this history of this country.

Not all income inequality is the same. One size does not fit all. It does not all have the same source.

Racism is a separate cause of income inequality, and continues to exist despite laws to prevent it. It needs to be treated as the separate social ill that it is, not to be lumped in with income inequality, which in fact can't be solved without ending racism in all areas of American life.

[stevenleser]

40. +10^10^100. The piece is extremely poorly written and makes points that don't follow at all.

And that's before you get into the fact that the article completely mis-characterizes what BLM is about, as you note.

Articles like these and those who promote them have no answer for the fact that rich people of color suffer a massive amount of racism just as poor people of color do. Racism is a fact of everyday life for people of color, and not just in matters of finance and economics.

[sabrina 1]

47. So are you ssaying that you do not support Economic Equality/Justice for minorities? That appears

to be the argument from some. I have asked for clarification on this argument before and still haven't received it.

Are you saying that our jails are filled with rich minorities then, and could you provide some statistics for that claim?

And how do YOU propose to cure 'hate'? By ignoring everything else and not empowering those who are victims of racism? How does THAT cure racism? Seems to me that is exactly how things are right now, and our politicians have had DECADES to fix it, yet it appears to be worse than ever. So, we've ignored Economic Equality and here we are today.

So since not facing the gross economic injustices minorities have faced for so long hasn't worked, WHAT is the objection to fighting to provide what has been missing for so long?

I ask because I see what you have stated over and over again, but nothing to explain why you object to empowering those who are without power by ensuring economic justice and equality which they are currently being denied.

Money in this country is POWER. That is a fact.

[NuclearDem]

49. "So are you ssaying that you do not support Economic Equality/Justice for minorities?"

No, he's not. That's amazingly dishonest of you to suggest.

What's being said is what the AA members of DU have been saying: economic justice is not the same thing as racial justice. The two complement each other, and there's quite a bit of overlap, but money doesn't cure societal stereotypes about race.

[sabrina 1]

50. What does any of that have to do with fighting for economic equality? And just WHO has ever said

that money will cure racism? Please provide some links to any, just one, comment here or anywhere else, where it has been argued that 'money will cure racism'. Thanks.

Since no one has ever done that, the enormous angst over proposals to FIX the economic inequalities that are undeniable regarding minorities in this country says that 'we shouldn't be focusing on this injustice' to me. What else can be taken from the months of objections to proposals to provide economic equality and justice for minorities? It is ludcrous to suggest that anyone proposing to fix this enormous problem is saying that it will 'cure racism'.

[kwassa]

53. You are diverting the topic. This thread is about BLM, not income equality per se.

[sabrina 1]

55. The topic is 'why Liberals Separate Racism from Class'. That is what the title of the OP

reads to me.

There certainly has been an effort to divert from what has been and still IS, a huge issue for minorities, which is the enormous economic inequality re minorities that simply cannot be denied.

I see an effort to make the claim that BECAUSE granting that equality WON'T cure racism, the issue is irrelevant. If that is not the argument, then all those who are creating that impression need to say is 'we agree that this is an issue that CAN and SHOULD be addressed, especially by our Representatives who have the power to do something about it'. But they have NOT, apparently or we would not still be talking about it, and our jails would not still be filled with POOR minorities.

[kwassa]

73. No, the issue of income equality is not irrelevant.

But don't attempt to say racism is a subset of income inequality, when it is it's own separate and very important issue.

Racism is not resolvable by our congressional representatives alone. It is resolvable by white Americans learning of the facts of how racism has created advantages for them that they don't see, and then do everything possible in all levels of society to make it disappear, in every aspect of their lives.

[Number23]

87. It's not just the AA posters on DU. Huge majorities of black people everywhere have been saying this

including Bernie Sanders own press secretary.

“One of my suggestions, he took it and ran with it on Meet the Press, is that racial inequality and economic inequality are parallel issues,” she said. “I [told him,] you know, economic equality is an issue. It’s something we need to address. But for some people it doesn’t matter how much money you make, it doesn’t matter where you went to school, it doesn’t matter what your parents do. It doesn’t matter that Sandra Bland had a job and was on her way to teach for her alma mater. It doesn’t matter. None of that matters.”
http://www.buzzfeed.com/evanmcsan/bernie-sanders-campaign-adds-young-black-woman-as-new-public#.hb9VwZ32zY

Though of course that won't stop anyone from pretending that everyone black who disagrees with them is just trying to "speak for all black people." Wonder if they feel that way about the tiny minority of black people who agree with them?

[Uncle Joe]

52. I have to wonder if O.J. Simpson had been poor, not having celebrity and economic power would the

police have followed him at a slow paced chase until he stopped and made an arrest without killing him

Can you imagine a poor, average income or non celebrity black man being accused of killing a white woman, how would the police treat him?

[sabrina 1]

54. I think we know the answer to that Uncle Joe!

See Eric Garner eg, who was murdered by cops over a .50c cigarette and such a 'threat' to society it took several cops to 'save' us from this terrible threat.

I am truly puzzled by the arguments AGAINST providing economic equality, which is clearly a huge issue, for minorities.

[Uncle Joe]

56. It don't get it either, sabrina?

[NuclearDem]

57. You don't get it because those arguments don't exist.

Nobody is arguing against economic justice. What's being pointed out is that economic justice isn't the sole means of addressing problems faced by the AA community. Hiring discrimination, driving while black, and countless stereotypes about AAs won't disappear with economic justice.

[Uncle Joe]

58. Nobody is saying it will, but economic justice will go a long way toward leveling the playing field.

What's been happening since Reaganomics, including the War on Drugs, for profit prisons, putting the mentally ill out of hospitals and the ridiculous disparities in wealth that have taken place over the past 30+ years under both Republican and Democratic Administrations have only served to intensify racism.

Minorities have been persecuted more harshly in proportion to whites by the police and justice system.

Whites that have seen their standard of living erode over that period of time have come under increased financial stress and they look for a scapegoat, and as they say shit rolls down hill, so the weakest, minorities, the poor and homeless become natural targets of their misplaced anger.

That's why Trump is doing so well, he's an expert at diverting their anger from the true cause of our national calamity.

[MountCleaners]

84. Right-wing economics...

Right-wing economics are advocated by people who feel that the black community does not deserve special consideration, or is not worth listening to.

Black people aren't voting for their billionaire-funded politicians, and they refuse to acknowledge this as legitimate criticism.

So, it IS racism that gives these economics their political power.

Study libertarian, anti-federal government politics - as articulated online - you'll see that black people's opinions, as well as the opinions of those who live around them, in urban areas, do NOT matter.

The politics are racist and we have to stop shying away from calling them that.

[bettyellen]

68. Shameless bullshit allegation - and you know it is. Twisting the truth that they are sometimes

Seperate issues and economic justice alone won't cure all racism has NOTHING to do with being against economic equality for POC.
You should be ashamed of yourself for making that accusation. A new low has been reached.

[sabrina 1]

69. Sorry, but that is how it is coming across.

The SC ruling on Marriage Equality won't cure Homophobia either. So should we not have supported progress on what is an essential Civil Right just because we cannot cure those who are filled with hatred? Do you deny that the country no longer DENYING a right, IS empowering and that it is necessary to correct the theft of rights from any group who has had those rights denied?

What IS the point of those who are constantly attacking the premise that Economic Equality is an essential right that needs to be fought for, for minorities?

[bettyellen]

71. No one said it - so stop saying they did. It's nonsense.

[mmonk]

41. Who is "they"? It is just a charge being thrown about. Capitalism requires division, an hierachy

if you will when operated as a complete system. In the US, it began as slavery.

[Lisa D]

43. Great post.

[PragmaticLiberal]

44. Well said kwassa.

[noiretextatique]

75. how do you propose to end racism in all areas of American life?

frankly, i could care less if someone asshole is a racist, but a racist cop could be a big problem for me. i do not think it is possible to end racism in hearts and minds, and in any case, it is not a task i would undertake. i do think providing people with a living wage, decent schools, and meaningful jobs would go a long way to making the economic realities of racism become less and less meaningful. and after too many years of civil rights: we still have an entrenched underclass that hasn't seen any investment in improving their lives. even this discussion is centering on class, in a way. i don't know that a poor single mother in South Central would consider racism her number one problem. it might be the low wages she makes, or the terrible schools her kids attend, or the shitty housing options she has, or that there are no banks in her neighborhood or that even with ACA, she still has limited healthcare options.

[kwassa]

80. Educate the public about the history of racism and it's effects.

Most people don't know history, white or black.

Ta-Nehisi Coates' "The Case for Reparations" should be taught in schools.

To provide the black underclass with the public support needed to generate the solutions they need, the public needs to see their responsibility in creating the situation in the first place.

[socialist_n_TN]

82. Yet you don't even mention the profit motivation that caused ....

the actual concept of "race" in the first place. The theory of "races" was invented so that white Christians could justify kidnapping, buying and selling human beings to super-size their profits in the marketplace. That's why you'll never get rid of racism under capitalism. Getting rid of racism, and really even talking about racism, interferes in the super profits made off of the idea of racism.

You can't have capitalism without racism.

[kwassa]

83. Race was around long before capitalism.

If you think otherwise, you don't know history.

When the lighter ancient Egyptians were in power, they called the darker group "the evil race of Ish". When the darker ancient Egyptians were in power, they called the lighter group "the pale, degraded race of Arvad".[2] These differences also related to different cultural groups who competed for power. For example, the Ancient Egyptian sacred text called Book of Gates identifies four ethnic categories that are now conventionally labeled "Egyptians", "Asiatics", "Libyans", and "Nubians" (see Ancient Egypt and race), but such distinctions tended to conflate differences as defined by physical features such as skin tone, with tribal and national identity.

Classical civilizations from Rome to China tended to invest the most importance in familial or tribal affiliation than an individual's physical appearance (Dikötter 1992; Goldenberg 2003). Societies still tended to equate physical characteristics, such as hair and eye colour, with psychological and moral qualities, usually assigning the highest qualities to their own people and lower qualities to the "Other", either lower classes or outsiders to their society. For example, an historian of the 3rd century Han Dynasty in the territory of present-day China describes barbarians of blond hair and green eyes as resembling "the monkeys from which they are descended."[2] (Gossett, pp. 4).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_race_concepts

[stevenleser]

90. You're right but that person will never be able to accept that. If you have bought into

Marx and the whole "Every problem in the world is class struggle" malarkey, you will try to fit every peg into that triangular hole no matter the shape of the peg.

[historylovr]

34. K & R

[daleo]

37. Good article.

[daredtowork]

59. I'm so glad someone spelled this out

It's so hard to respond to comments about the false social/economic dichotomy with a short post. You can't just say "because history" - then you need examples. However, you can't post that same thing over and over and over again. I think I'm going to keep the link to this article handy. "Because history...LINK". Aaaah, lifting the burden of having to repeat myself over and over feels sooooooooo good!

Thank you!

[Catherina]

63. You're welcome n/t

[hifiguy]

65. Great article!

Finally got the chance to read the whole thing. Nice to know I was right all along.

[bettyellen]

66. Who treats race as "permanent and unchanging"- link please!

Because I think that is pretty much a bullshit premise.

[noiretextatique]

76. race is not permanent and unchanging

i take that to mean this: oprah, as a black woman, does not have the same experience as an unemployed mother of four children who relies on welfare. oprah can probably be pulled over by a racist cop, but because of who she is, her experience would probably be different than mine. ergo, to claim that race, and racism affect all black people equally is a bullshit premise. the black people who are most adversely affected by racism are the same ones who are most adversely affected by economic inequality, generally speaking. there are always some exceptions, but i think that is true. with economic power, some black people can insulate themselves, at least to some extent, from the racism that poorer black people can never escape.

[Romulox]

70. Class issues threaten both Parties' financial backers. Social ones do not. nt

[noiretextatique]

79. i am wondering where all those outraged black Duers are?

now that i've had a white person tell me he knows not only what most black DUers think, but he know what most black americans think also. if he was a bernie supporter...this would be a MAJOR problem, probably worthy of its own OP. Clinton supporter...not so much. GOT IT.

[kwassa]

85. You know where to find them.

Here on GD. Many of them have had posts alerted on in GDP.

but most of all the AfAm group. Have you missed the past month of conversation on Bernie Sanders and black people? I am not getting the sense that you have been following the conversation.

I don't support any of the current Democratic candidates. There is not a great one out there.

[kwassa]

86. and here is the rest of Bernie's problem, from today's NYT.

But while Mr. Sanders went out of his way at both stops to reach out to black leaders, the thousands of people who came to hear him bellow, “We are going to end institutional racism,” as he did here on Saturday night, were overwhelmingly white.

And that poses a problem. If Mr. Sanders, who is climbing in polls and attracting the largest crowds of the campaign, hopes to broaden his support and be more than a footnote in the story of Hillary Rodham Clinton’s road to the Democratic nomination, he must demonstrate a capacity to draw support from African-American voters. And that is likely to require a more targeted effort here in South Carolina.

South Carolina “could be up for grabs if Secretary Clinton is overconfident and thinks that the African-American community will just support her, and especially if Senator Sanders continues to show his commitment and interest in the community,” Earl Simmons, a senior pastor at the Maple Creek Missionary Baptist Church in Greer, said after the private meeting in Greenville.

But Mr. Sanders gives essentially the same populist speech wherever he goes, whether his audience members are Iowan or South Carolinian, black or white.

Mr. Sanders said in an interview after an event in Sumter on Saturday that African-Americans “should vote for me” because they would benefit from his war on income inequality and because of his civil rights record. Asked if he needed to hit issues of racial justice harder, Mr. Sanders referred testily to a passage on criminal justice reform in his hour-and-15-minute stump speech: “What do you think I just spent 15 minutes talking about?”

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/23/us/politics/a-shift-in-tone-as-bernie-sanders-speaks-on-criminal-justice-in-south-carolina.html?_r=0

[Catherina]

88. Don't get me started

I'm so focused on getting Sanders elected, otherwise all we're going to get is more lip service, that I'm not wasting my time even reading the posts of people who haven't been on the same side for any important issues, especially when they try to confuse the terminology and facts. The time for discussion was yesterday. Today is action and change. The hope and wait part is so yesterday.





Original on file at Birmingham Public Library

And I love how the same people who have a vested economic interest in keeping poor people divided over *attitudes*, dismiss brother after brother and sister after sister as *radicals*. "Oh they don't represent the majority" "They're fringe" "No one in the Black community pays attention to Cornel West or Tavis or blah blah blah". Well hah, poor people are rising up under our noses and all this talk that racism and economic injustice don't go hand in hand is to keep us separated like people can't smell the same old bullshit.

You remember right here, for the 2008 elections, we had some PUMA, overtly racist prolific Clinton supporter here for months telling us how we should be grateful and kissing her ass or go back to mopping floors? And not a single moderator would delete her vile shit. Not a single Clinton supporter would call her on it, they just pretended they didn't see it and when called on it with direct links, they either disappeared for a while or explained it away. Even when you wrote to the mods with direct quotes after the alers failed, her posts remained. I sent Skinner a very upset note I was that mad and to do him credit, he tombstoned her right then and there and sent me a really nice note apologizing we were subjected to that and letting me know he got rid of her. Go back to mopping floors my ass. Be grateful my ass.

I think this is what is scaring the status quo more than anything. There's been a class war going on for decades racism is just a sideline they use to divide and conquer, to obscure what's really going on and deceive people by playing on their fears. Socioeconomic status is the largest factor in racial injustice, poverty, joblessness, imprisonment, lack of healthcare, but they don't want us talking about it because we might unite. The Black voting bloc might back Sanders instead and be their worst nightmare since Martin Luther King started talking about workers rights for all colors and travelled to Memphis to support a LABOR strike by Black sanitation workers and organized the Poor People's March a few weeks before they decided enough was enough with all that socialist talk and gunned him down.

Brother Cornel West, who's treated like a rock star on the streets where the direct actions are taking place against racial injustice, just endorsed Sanders with the explicit caveat that

“I’m not a Hillary Clinton fan at all,” he said resolutely. “So if he uses his power to hand it over to her I’ll be deeply upset.”

The Clinton camp tried the race card in 2007-2008. That failed miserably and backfired spectacularly. Now they're trying to play the opposite race card and just as clumsily too. Helllloooo! Think people are that dumb?

Mopping floors. Carrying bags. Attitudes. Change hearts instead of economics. Got it.

KISS MY BLACK ASS (not you of course, the oppressors trying to keep us divided)

Tim Russert told me that, according to his sources, Bill Clinton, in an effort to secure an endorsement for Hillary from Ted Kennedy, said to Kennedy, “A few years ago, this guy would have been carrying our bags.”

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2012/09/10/lets-be-friends

[noiretextatique]

92. Not SOCIALISM...not from MLK!?

no wonder Black people didn't support him

[kwassa]

93. Your inability to discuss the issues is telling.

I'm so focused on getting Sanders elected, otherwise all we're going to get is more lip service, that I'm not wasting my time even reading the posts of people who haven't been on the same side for any important issues, especially when they try to confuse the terminology and facts. The time for discussion was yesterday. Today is action and change. The hope and wait part is so yesterday.

Which is a fabulous way of avoiding discussing the subject. Good for you. This shows how fragile your argument must be.

Neither Cornel West nor Tavis Smiley enjoy wide support in the black community, for their relentless shitting on the Obama administration. Like it or not, Obama is revered by most African-Americans, as seen in his approval ratings in a wide variety of areas.

Your mileage might vary, but nonetheless, that is the fact. Obama is loved, Cornel, not so much. Cornel coming out for Bernie will not get Bernie many black votes.

[Waiting For Everyman]

89. Some would rather control what others think

than actually achieve equality and justice.

Of course, controlling what others think isn't even possible, so it's just throwing away a chance to actually do something, for a big bag of hubris.

It will be interesting to see how many people choose which path, this time.

[greymattermom]

91. Because liberals know folks like Julian Bond

and other families like the Bond family. I was part of one of the memorials requested by the Bond family at the lake at the old fourth ward in Atlanta. At time his ashes were placed in the Gulf of Mexico, friends all over the country placed flowers in local lakes, rivers, the ocean and even swimming pools. There were middle class and upper class blacks in many regions of the South before desegregation, and liberals know this. It's not always an intellectual knowledge, we actually know them.

[Blue_Tires]

94. ttt

[Zorra]

95. Great article, very thoughtful, thanks. nt