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MrScorpio

(73,630 posts)
Fri Sep 4, 2015, 01:27 PM Sep 2015

MrScorpio Talks To Everyone

Hello, Everyone, I hope that you're doing well.

First, a caveat about how this piece came about: Coincidentally, while searching the site history recently, just to see if I had previously posted a particular video in the Lounge, I just happened to come across an OP that I wrote five years ago today. It was entitled, "MrScorpio talks to 'Guys.'" http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9073202&mesg_id=9073202

The most remarkable thing about that post is the fact that it stands as the most responded to thread that I've ever written during my membership here; it had over one thousand replies. That's quite a bit, right? I wrote that OP as a response to the negative reaction I had observed against another OP written at the time by DU poster, Brickbat, entitled "Cartoon: Street Harassment." http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9062677&mesg_id=9062677

Brickbat's OP spawned a long running, more than five hundred post, back and forth discussion between many DUers on the nature of street harassment, misogyny, sexism, rape and relationships. The kind of thing that can happen anywhere and not just on DU, right? Well, while reading many of those posts, particularly by some of the male posters, a couple of days later I chose to take it upon myself to be responsible enough to use this as an opportunity to "talk" to other males about something that I found problematic in that exchange, an exchange that could have happened IRL with any number of other guys on any street corner in this country. The funny thing is that I don't have a lot unattached male friends, as my male friends are other family guys. So, between us, discussions about street harassment normally wouldn't happen. However, one never can anticipate when these opportunities to pass on knowledge will occur. So, I saw one and I took it.

What followed, as they say, is history. By the way, when I specifically mentioned responsibility, I assure you that I'm going to elaborate on that subject later.

Now to the meat of this issue: In the intervening five years and with all of the things that have happened in our society during this time, the simple truth is that certain things about how we all live as Americans should be painfully obvious to anyone paying any attention, yet perhaps they're not. Either way, I believe that something needs to be discussed. In that much of the problems of our society can be connected to the fact that we all still live in age of inequality, privilege, power and difference. However, in abiding by the rules of this power structure and hierarchy, it can influence each of our own perspectives and the course of our own actions. While some actions and perspectives are done in ways that create positive outcomes, others create general harm, even for those who ostensibly benefit from the lopsidedness of the overall power structure. It's this point that I want to discuss.

As a microcosm, going back to the problematic reaction to Brickbat's thread and which also found its way into my own, I had noticed at the time that other males were responding as if they were being attacked. Yet, no one was being attacked, no names were ever mentioned, no one was being labeled a "rapist." However, those accusations were still being made. Let's suppose that what happened in those threads was indicative of the same kinds of conversations that happen in real life. It also became apparent that certain patterns were developing right in front of me.

Understanding how something like that could happen meant that I had to take some time to listen to other voices, even if many of those were unlike my own. In these particular instances, what was painfully obvious then and as of late was the fact that many of us are choosing not listen to each other. Anyone can see that these attitudes happen in pretty much all facets of our society and just about anywhere where discussions occur. Generally, one can see that attitudes are not changing sufficiently over time and even today can happen even in a myriad of spaces and with people who profess to be liberals, progressives and Democrats. Maybe I'm being presumptuous, but I think that people who profess to fight for progressive and liberal issues should be on the same page in the fight against systemic inequality, privilege, power, difference, bias and discrimination, or at least be reading from the same book. What does it say when people on the same side are fighting against each other?

Last year, when I spent much of my time on the Discussionist, I used that opportunity to discuss, challenge and demonstrate with people who did not share my own world-view about the nature of inequality, privilege, power, difference, bias and discrimination. I did a lot of reading and thinking about what was said back and forth. There again, many of the posters there behaved as if they were being attacked even when they weren't. Now, although different forms of bias and discrimination each have their own particular elements, what revealed itself to me was a pattern of structures in the power and privilege dynamic, and they shared certain common elements.

It was clearly apparent that the reactions against discussions of sexism and misogyny here in the past mirrored the corresponding reactions against discussions on race and discrimination on the Discussionst, and oddly enough, both were indicative of the negative reactions that happen in our greater society. The kicker here is that in each case, those negative reactions were expressed by those who personally identified with the privileged position and regardless of political ideology. This article, for example, explains these same dynamics as they regard to discussions about race: http://www.salon.com/2015/04/10/white_americas_racial_illiteracy_why_our_national_conversation_is_poisoned_from_the_start_partner/

Over time many of us have witnessed this pernicious and persistent overall system of inequality, privilege, power, difference, bias and discrimination defended, mitigated, excused and the victims of this system diminished and discredited under the auspices of respectability politics. We've seen right wing efforts to discredit activists mirrored and defended by liberals. That stuff is going to be challenged, because there's no justifiable excuse for it. Yet, despite the fact that whenever these things are challenged, as invested as all we are in this society, it's clear that each one of us actively chooses to exercise our own responsibilities, whether or not as empathetic and sympathetic individuals who belong to particular groups. What's frustrating about this is whenever this is done, it's done in wildly conflicting ways, perhaps as an intentional effort to derail and conflate the issues.

Conflicts most likely occur because each of us as individuals retain varying levels of power and privilege as members of these groups within our society, an investment, one that needs to be protected at all costs. That investment can be determined for each of us simply because we were each born a certain way. The problem here is that, under such a system, different values are placed on the validity of each person. That's because where one stands within the overall hierarchy, the disparate worth of each person's perceived validity is what's important and not the logic and justification of their own argument. This is what's known as the "double standard." As an example, a stupid statement by an important person usually carries more value than a smart statement by a less important person. It should be mentioned that levels of privilege can vary. I'm aware that I retain some inherent privileges from being a straight male, but I have limitations within the hierarchy because I'm not affluent and I'm non-white.

Going back to my responsibility from five years ago, I recognized that I was writing from a position of patriarchal privilege within our society. The point that I wanted to make at that time to other males is that such a position in this hierarchy not only has a directly detrimental effect on women, but in an indirect way, on our fellow beneficiaries of male privilege as well. It's the hierarchy which inflicts a certain amount of isolating limitations on males, while at the same time serves to grant us a system of privileges. Rather than mentioning the obvious privileges of maleness, one such limitation of being in the privileged position is the fact that we need to actively educate ourselves on the intrinsic reality of those who don't retain such privileges. We all weren't necessarily born and raised in this society to know that. That intrinsic reality is something which I call forms of "normality," forms which share particular patterns:

- Sexism and misogyny are problems inflicted by and for the benefit of males within a patriarchal societal system and against the female half. Women and girls are all judged against a standard of maleness, a standard in which they will always be classified as inferior, as in the so-called "weaker" sex. However, the fact is that women have their own normality, one which does NOT have a main purpose to be subservient to men's needs and is something that sometimes needs to be pointed out to men by other men. It's our responsibility as men to tell this to each other. Male normality does not apply to women. Women are all aware of this fact simply by existing within this society, from the unequal rates of pay, to the diminishing access to medical care, to being treated as if they're unclaimed property whenever they dare to go out in public.

- Under a system of white supremacy, racial discrimination is a problem inflicted by and for the behalf of the white majority. Non-whites are all judged against a standard of whiteness, a standard in which they will always be classified as inferior. However, when Black lives are said to matter, it's meant to matter unconditionally, especially in a society which snuffs black lives out constantly. White normality does not apply to non-white people, we all have our own. One which always forces us be keenly aware our own status as non-whites in this white supremacist society, in any particular situation and as a simple matter of survival.

- Under a system of heteronormality, homophobia is a problem that's inflicted onto others by the straight majority. LGBTQIA persons are all judged against a standard of heterosexuals, a standard in which they're classified as "abnormal," "perverted" or worse. Here, some gains were recently made. In this arena gains were made when SOME of our laws were changed by the straight people who are in control of the system. However, whenever heteronormality is not considered to be the only valid form of existence, when same-sex marriages are considered to be just as unremarkable as straight marriages for example, only then can a fuller progress in this normality can be achieved. But harm to all still happens, like whenever a homophobic county clerk ceases to issues marriage licenses for everyone in order to prevent licenses being issued to same-sex couples. It's still a work in progress and we all still have a long way to go.

- Under an ablelist social hierarchy, discrimination against the disabled are problems inflicted by and for the behalf of the abled majority. What's interesting about this one is the fact that being abled in not necessarily a constant. Abled people can become disabled at the drop of a hat. It also should be pointed out that disability is not always visually apparent. Mental disabilities still retain certain stigmas; those stigmas may prevent those with treatable conditions from seeking treatment. Untreated conditions that may inflict unnecessary tragedy for everyone involved.

- Under a system of class privilege, the poor are blamed for the problems that the rich create and such blame is used to benefit those who build, maintain and control such a system. ("Why can't the poor buy more money?&quot But the truth is that poor people are not controlling or destroying our economic system, but are the first and most vulnerable to feel the detrimental effects of collapse and corruption whenever negative consequences affect us all, as well the very last to reap the rewards when they're heaped on the affluent.


That's just a few of the examples that I can come up with off the top of my head. However, I'm sure that some of you may well understand the pattern in which I'm demonstrating here and apply it for yourselves in other ways.

In spite of the fact that the unprivileged can do everything that they can to call attention to these issues and more, unless the privileged parties chose to change, things won't. The unprivileged do not all live within the same perspective world as the privileged and do not share the same normality. Privileged parties have responsibilities to change that normality in order to abolish systems of inequality, privilege, power, difference, bias and discrimination. It must change, because lop-sided systems of hierarchy eventually create general harm to all who live within them. This is not about blaming individuals, because no one person is accountable for running the system, it's about empowered groups of people doing what's right for all.

I have an idea that I haven't fully realized yet, but I've been considering a new exercise to demonstrate the fact of this interconnectedness of power and privilege, the general harm that such social systems inflict on all of us, in order to point out that the record stipulates that we can all change things for the better. Now, if folks who are familiar with my Lounge post series, "The Six Degrees of MrScorpio," already know that I play that game to demonstrate a certain quirk about me, in which I'm apparently associated in some way to practically every celebrity on the planet within a proximity of six degrees. It's a game, one that I'm proud to say that I'm very good at. But still, it's just a game.

What I've considered recently was applying that same model here in GD, because I truly suspect that most, if not all, of our socially, politically and economically regressive problems are intrinsically connected to inequality, privilege, power, difference, bias and discrimination. I was thinking about calling this exercise, "The Six Degrees of Privilege, Bias and Discrimination." The title isn't as catchy as the Lounge game, but so be it. One point behind such a thing would be to demonstrate that none of us are immune from these problems. Again, this is not to assign blame to anyone regardless of their own degree of group normality, but it can be used to demonstrate that we all have responsibilities to each other. But the most important point of all would be to use the exercise as a demonstration, showing us all that inequality, privilege, power, difference, bias and discrimination are at the CORE of our most pressing problems within our society. That in order to advance ourselves as a Americans, these systemic problems must be dealt with first and foremost and if not, they would eventually contribute to our societal collapse. Think of this too as a matter of survival.

I should point out that the main purpose of this OP that you've taken the time out of your busy, busy day to read (thank you, very much) is two-fold: On one hand, rather than as a moment in which I'm seeking to educate others, like I tried to do in that OP from five years ago, in this OP I'm simply making an announcement. I'm pointing out that people are seeing what's going on. What's going on should be painfully obvious to everyone. Patterns are clear and can be easily applied to whatever situation and for those who retain their group privileges, blindness is an individual choice. No one is fooling anyone else, not now and not ever. My Six Degrees game in the Lounge is, I'm sure, something that can be done by most other people on this planet and with similar outcomes.

Consequently, as we are all similarly connected and live within a finitely shared space within our greater society. In this shared space, whitesplaining, straightsplaining, abledsplaining and richsplaining must not be accepted paradigms to sweep away the normality of the non-privileged for the sake of the privileged. Because, accepting those paradigms would invite general regression as well. In other words, a harm against one is a harm against all. Those who are paying attention will see the struggle against our detrimental system of inequality, privilege, power, difference, bias and discrimination happening right in front of them; those who aren't will not. Being blind to problems doesn't mean that one is not harmed by them.

Either way, in the struggle, the responses from each side both are noticed and remembered. Those in that struggle understand full well who their real allies are. However, once progress is made, such as in marriage equality, there absolutely is no going back. In spite of the systems that we all are born into, with our consent or not, we are all connected. You to me, me to others, white to non-white, straight to LGBTQIA, rich to poor, men to women, abled to disabled and so on.

Let's all live like it.


In conclusion, I have some more resources for everyone. Please use them as you choose:

Allan G Johnson on The Gender Knot + Privilege, Power, and Difference




Allan G Johnson on The Gender Knot + Privilege, Power, and Difference Part 2




"How Studying Privilege Systems Can Strengthen Compassion": Peggy McIntosh at TEDxTimberlaneSchools




The REAL definition of White Supremacy (w/ SELF TEST)




wandelen | ep 1 | black dutch culture, dutch caribbean, citizenship, veganism, mental health & more




Voices from the Black Diaspora

http://strollingseries.com


28 COMMON RACIST ATTITUDES AND BEHAVIORS

http://odinsblog.tumblr.com/tagged/28%20common%20racist%20attitudes



Again, thanks for your time.
81 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
MrScorpio Talks To Everyone (Original Post) MrScorpio Sep 2015 OP
Kick! gollygee Sep 2015 #1
k&r Starry Messenger Sep 2015 #2
This is wonderful! fredamae Sep 2015 #3
Some times MrScorpio talks to me on Twitter! yuiyoshida Sep 2015 #4
Well done, MrScorpio! longship Sep 2015 #5
Sadly, I can't devote the time this OP warrants at the moment. herding cats Sep 2015 #6
I know the feeling. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Sep 2015 #8
k&r! nt steve2470 Sep 2015 #7
kicked w/ thanks! bettyellen Sep 2015 #9
Goodness, cuz, that's a LOT, lmbao Chitown Kev Sep 2015 #10
I try to read through all of the comments to a thread before posting; but, ... 1StrongBlackMan Sep 2015 #51
. libodem Sep 2015 #11
Good one! yardwork Sep 2015 #71
This is truly wonderful! K and R etherealtruth Sep 2015 #12
Awesome essay, awesome links. hunter Sep 2015 #13
Most excellent annabanana Sep 2015 #14
THANK YOU, MR SCORPIO! Dont call me Shirley Sep 2015 #15
Excellent, absolutely excellent OP... Spazito Sep 2015 #16
An excellent OP ismnotwasm Sep 2015 #17
you are one my anti ignore list olddots Sep 2015 #18
KnRnB to read in full later. TY, Mr. Scorpio. Hekate Sep 2015 #19
Great, thoughtful essay. Thanks, MrScorpio! pnwmom Sep 2015 #20
Very thoughtful, nicely done! n/t prayin4rain Sep 2015 #21
As always, Mr.S, well worth the read. TygrBright Sep 2015 #22
Yes... Chitown Kev Sep 2015 #24
+1 ... Very well stated. n/t 1StrongBlackMan Sep 2015 #52
Wow MuseRider Sep 2015 #23
If you're only reading the replies and not the entire post Glassunion Sep 2015 #25
An excellent post malaise Sep 2015 #26
Excellent, thank you for this Warpy Sep 2015 #27
I think you better write a book Flying Squirrel Sep 2015 #28
Yes. Time to write a book. brush Sep 2015 #77
Bookmarking so I can read this weekend. beac Sep 2015 #29
Damn good read! JustAnotherGen Sep 2015 #30
This is excellent gwheezie Sep 2015 #31
Indeed! lovemydog Sep 2015 #46
great read, sir. thank you. mopinko Sep 2015 #32
I don't know that you know how important a point you made here ... 1StrongBlackMan Sep 2015 #53
Dr. Seuss illustrated the phenomena BumRushDaShow Sep 2015 #33
Fine essary, MrScorpio. brer cat Sep 2015 #34
This is a thing of beauty. Squinch Sep 2015 #35
K&R! betsuni Sep 2015 #36
Yes MrScorpio, we are ALL connected. lovemydog Sep 2015 #37
Marked to read. sheshe2 Sep 2015 #38
Bumping this epic post lovemydog Sep 2015 #39
Brilliant post! smirkymonkey Sep 2015 #40
Thank you so much for the Allen Johnson videos. betsuni Sep 2015 #41
Kick. Starry Messenger Sep 2015 #42
Thank you. n/t Gormy Cuss Sep 2015 #43
I'm not sure LWolf Sep 2015 #44
Though we seem to disagree on a lot here ... 1StrongBlackMan Sep 2015 #54
We probably LWolf Sep 2015 #62
Bluntly, What's in it for the straight, white, able, middle-class male to address privilege aikoaiko Sep 2015 #45
If I may respond, as I think your question lovemydog Sep 2015 #47
Thank you. aikoaiko Sep 2015 #59
The Allan Johnson interview videos may answer some of your questions MrScorpio Sep 2015 #49
Oy. Watching 2.5 hours of Allan Johnson is harsh. I rec watching the 2nd. aikoaiko Sep 2015 #56
Any other reponses to my replies to you? aikoaiko Sep 2015 #63
I didn't get the name of the guy in the white supremacy video brush Sep 2015 #78
His name is Elijah Hamilton MrScorpio Sep 2015 #79
Kickin it up ismnotwasm Sep 2015 #48
Wow! Brava, Dear Sir... OneGrassRoot Sep 2015 #50
K&R& ... Damnnnnn, good piece. n/t 1StrongBlackMan Sep 2015 #55
K and R beveeheart Sep 2015 #57
Read through our Op and I have to say it was worth every moment, I wish I had time to AuntPatsy Sep 2015 #58
Thank you, MrScorpio. mia Sep 2015 #60
I miss your threads on Discussionist Gothmog Sep 2015 #61
Excellent post and great links. K&R emulatorloo Sep 2015 #64
Excellant Thank You rbrnmw Sep 2015 #65
MrScorpio, I predict this will become your biggest OP kcr Sep 2015 #66
DAMN Skippy.. Did you write this all by yourself? annabanana Sep 2015 #67
I gotta say hfojvt Sep 2015 #68
Has straight, white, male society ever considered you and your own whiteness threatening… MrScorpio Sep 2015 #69
I am not sure where this society is hfojvt Sep 2015 #74
Well, this is interesting… MrScorpio Sep 2015 #76
I said society hfojvt Sep 2015 #80
That's right, society isn't made up entirely of straight white males… MrScorpio Sep 2015 #81
If the Hillary campaign fails to get traction using rhetoric "A", try rhetoric "B" lumberjack_jeff Sep 2015 #70
Excellent post DemocraticWing Sep 2015 #72
REC # 100 Skittles Sep 2015 #73
K&R Jamastiene Sep 2015 #75

fredamae

(4,458 posts)
3. This is wonderful!
Fri Sep 4, 2015, 01:51 PM
Sep 2015

I am too busy today and can't properly read this right now - Thank you, very much for taking the time to write this for the rest of us.
I look forward to enough undistracted quiet time to read thoroughly!

herding cats

(19,558 posts)
6. Sadly, I can't devote the time this OP warrants at the moment.
Fri Sep 4, 2015, 02:15 PM
Sep 2015

I'm marking it for now and will read and watch all of it later.

Chitown Kev

(2,197 posts)
10. Goodness, cuz, that's a LOT, lmbao
Fri Sep 4, 2015, 03:46 PM
Sep 2015

Much to think over here.

Of course, as a gay black agnostic/atheist male, I am so in between so many of these various categories of privilege and marginality that it ain't even funny...I do talk about it on occasion, though.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/01/27/1360104/-Black-Kos-Tuesday-s-Chile

These structures of privilege are ingrained so, so deeply and are so difficult to overcome that even with me, it's still a work in progress.

 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
51. I try to read through all of the comments to a thread before posting; but, ...
Sat Sep 5, 2015, 05:39 PM
Sep 2015

I had to comment here ...

This comment, alone, indicates a clear understanding of the OP's message:

Of course, as a gay black agnostic/atheist male, I am so in between so many of these various categories of privilege and marginality that it ain't even funny


And the most telling part was the "Lmboa."

Spazito

(50,052 posts)
16. Excellent, absolutely excellent OP...
Fri Sep 4, 2015, 04:14 PM
Sep 2015

There is much in it to absorb, re-read again.

Thank you for taking the time to write this, it is truly excellent.

ismnotwasm

(41,952 posts)
17. An excellent OP
Fri Sep 4, 2015, 04:19 PM
Sep 2015

I quit discussing sexism here for the most part, as I have other places to discuss it. At this time, I don't want to discuss personal politics here either.

But coached in terms of privledge, now that's a topic that is broad enough to reach everybody. As has been said, privledge, everybody has it, it is a matter of what, and how much. This doesn't negate the larger privileges of Race and gender --as well as sexual orientation, but stands as a starting point for what could be an incredible conversation. Could be, but alas, Mr. Scorpio I think history will repeat itself.

 

olddots

(10,237 posts)
18. you are one my anti ignore list
Fri Sep 4, 2015, 04:24 PM
Sep 2015

I read and learn from every word you write , thanks again for your words .

TygrBright

(20,749 posts)
22. As always, Mr.S, well worth the read.
Fri Sep 4, 2015, 04:45 PM
Sep 2015

It's the privilege, and the assumptions that come with the privilege, and the denial that comes with the privilege.

The truly sad/funny thing about it is that here on DU I would bet there are very few individuals who are privileged in all of the five ways you mentioned, especially as a lifelong experience.

It's so easy to see the "unprivileged" status when it belongs to us-- when we're on the wrong side of the patriarchy, love the wrong people, have the wrong skin shade, live on the wrong side of the tracks, etcetera.

Some of us, I suspect, have an unconscious belief that our unprivileged status in one area exempts us from experiencing or benefiting from any kind of privilege in any other area.

But even for those of us who acknowledge the existence and benefits of the privileges we do enjoy (being straight, for example, or never having to worry about whether we'll have a warm place to sleep on a winter night,) it's easy to blind ourselves to the effects OUR privilege perpetuates on those who don't enjoy it. And all too easy to disclaim responsibility-- after all, we didn't ASK for that privilege!-- and absolve ourselves of the obligation to work against that privilege.

appreciatively,
Bright

Chitown Kev

(2,197 posts)
24. Yes...
Fri Sep 4, 2015, 04:51 PM
Sep 2015
Some of us, I suspect, have an unconscious belief that our unprivileged status in one area exempts us from experiencing or benefiting from any kind of privilege in any other area.


People do act that way. But I have taught myself to recognize some of the privilege that I have (relatively speaking) in being a male (in spite of the gay black adjectives that go with that) or even in having a little bit of edumication (Most people never asked me if I went to college, thery asked me where I went to college and what did I get my degree in, for example...even though I didn't get my degree until I was nearly 40 years old...)

MuseRider

(34,094 posts)
23. Wow
Fri Sep 4, 2015, 04:50 PM
Sep 2015

I am assuming this OP will be around a while. I will bookmark in case it isn't but that is too much for me at this time, way too much going on. However, I read through it and wanted to thank you for this effort.

It is difficult but if we all really work to see where we are and how we perpetuate this without even being aware of it we can make progress. In the mean time we have to be willing to have it pointed out to us if we mess up and not take it personally but attempt to understand and remove it with the understanding that it is for the good of all of us.

Well done. If I don't make it back before this drops away, thank you. We will never be a good, kind or comfortable society until we all accept our part in this.

Warpy

(111,106 posts)
27. Excellent, thank you for this
Fri Sep 4, 2015, 05:12 PM
Sep 2015

I'm going to repost that cartoon from DU2 since it says so much about the poisoned relationship between men and women:



Anyone who doesn't think unconscious privilege poisons relationships all over the map simply hasn't bothered to think things through.

gwheezie

(3,580 posts)
31. This is excellent
Fri Sep 4, 2015, 06:03 PM
Sep 2015

I've reread it and went to the videos. I'm going to save this as it requires several readings.

lovemydog

(11,833 posts)
46. Indeed!
Sat Sep 5, 2015, 02:42 PM
Sep 2015

It's a great read and the videos are outstanding as well. Hope you're enjoying a fine Labor Day weekend gwheezie. I'm working around the outside of my house and it feels really good getting the exercise.

mopinko

(69,966 posts)
32. great read, sir. thank you.
Fri Sep 4, 2015, 06:14 PM
Sep 2015

so important. and a fruitful exercise this 6 degrees thing.
i am a very lucky person. straight, white, well to do.
i dont think i take that for granted. i was raised poor, and know i may well die poor. at retirement age, and should be ok. but i know that a few catastrophes could easily befall me. and at 61, i am seeing agism creep in on me. not the sexy young thing i once was. the world looks at me differently now.
all you youngens would do well to remember that it will happen to you should you be lucky enough to get old.
and of course, at some point almost every one of us will be disabled, or at least a lot less able than we are right now. several broken bones over the last couple years, and knobbiness growing in my fingers and pain in my joints, remind me of that.

of course, there is also the lack of privilege for those we love. i have a daughter who is disabled, and also gender queer (her words)
shit happens to her that i can only dream of protecting her from. but isnt that privilege, too. to protect those we love is a privilege. so many can only watch and cry.

yes, we are all in this together. or we will be some day.
if only the lucky and selfish could truly suck that in.

 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
53. I don't know that you know how important a point you made here ...
Sat Sep 5, 2015, 05:56 PM
Sep 2015
shit happens to her that i can only dream of protecting her from. but isnt that privilege, too. to protect those we love is a privilege. so many can only watch and cry.


BumRushDaShow

(128,258 posts)
33. Dr. Seuss illustrated the phenomena
Fri Sep 4, 2015, 06:21 PM
Sep 2015

and some of the aftermath, very well.



Human nature for the benefit of species survival, meant that Homo Sapiens sapiens have evolved hierarchical systems in order to leverage certain traits that might excel under certain dire circumstances. However once those dire circumstances (i.e., early in humanity's evolution) disappeared, humanity just couldn't let it go and hung onto those hierarchies.... and unfortunately will continue to do so for some time.

The one thing that I do disagree with (sadly) is this -

However, once progress is made, such as in marriage equality, there absolutely is no going back.


Far too many times the pendulum swings back, thus evoking the oft-used term "the struggle", because humanity will always, or at least inevitably, fall back on relying on those ancient, primordial tactics, and will find some way to dream up new (or recycled) artificial social constructs to enforce them. But since our lifespans are quite short in terms of some of these swings, some generations may grow up in the more gender/race/abled/income neutral world... But often by mid-late life, they watch the collective memories of the "before" fade, and wind up experiencing them first hand if consistent and sometimes considerable effort is not expended to maintain the neutral as normative.

brer cat

(24,502 posts)
34. Fine essary, MrScorpio.
Fri Sep 4, 2015, 07:37 PM
Sep 2015

I appreciate your time to write and share this with us. I need time to reread it and digest it a bit.

lovemydog

(11,833 posts)
37. Yes MrScorpio, we are ALL connected.
Sat Sep 5, 2015, 12:19 AM
Sep 2015

As you say so well, 'Privileged parties have responsibilities to change that normality in order to abolish systems of inequality, privilege, power, difference, bias and discrimination.'

We at DU should keep discussing these issues of power, language, inequality, bias and discrimination. It may not make everyone comfortable. But it contributes to a more healthy atmosphere here. One way more rich than 'your chosen candidate sucks!' I've learned a lot from my women friends here, from my gay friends here, from my black friends here. We're all connected and what we say matters, how we listen to others matters.

I suggest anyone reading this to check out the African American group here at DU. Read and listen and if you'd like (and you can be respectful) post there too. It's one of the best groups here. Each of its participants are people I respect and find humorous and smart. There's so much there to read and learn. So much to learn by gaining insight into different perspectives.

This all goes way beyond anyone's preferred candidate or any elected official. It's about how we choose to live our lives and from whom we gain insight and sustenance and joy.

In spite of frustrations with the way a lot of people here talk about race, I believe we all benefit only by continuing to discuss it, continue sharing perspectives, continuing to listen.

Hope you enjoy a good weekend. Thanks for this fascinating essay. It should be discussed here for some time, from all different angles.

LWolf

(46,179 posts)
44. I'm not sure
Sat Sep 5, 2015, 12:51 PM
Sep 2015

if I will have time to watch your videos and click on your links today, as I'm supposed to be finishing another project by deadline, but this post will serve to help me find my way back to them.

You said, What I've considered recently was applying that same model here in GD, because I truly suspect that most, if not all, of our socially, politically and economically regressive problems are intrinsically connected to inequality, privilege, power, difference, bias and discrimination. I was thinking about calling this exercise, "The Six Degrees of Privilege, Bias and Discrimination." The title isn't as catchy as the Lounge game, but so be it. One point behind such a thing would be to demonstrate that none of us are immune from these problems. Again, this is not to assign blame to anyone regardless of their own degree of group normality, but it can be used to demonstrate that we all have responsibilities to each other. But the most important point of all would be to use the exercise as a demonstration, showing us all that inequality, privilege, power, difference, bias and discrimination are at the CORE of our most pressing problems within our society. That in order to advance ourselves as a Americans, these systemic problems must be dealt with first and foremost and if not, they would eventually contribute to our societal collapse. Think of this too as a matter of survival.

I wholeheartedly agree. I would request that, if I say something here that is, or seems to be, whitesplaining, straightsplaining, abledsplaining or richsplaining, point it out and correct me with patience and compassion.

Let's all live like we are connected, because we are.

 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
54. Though we seem to disagree on a lot here ...
Sat Sep 5, 2015, 06:02 PM
Sep 2015


And as such, I will make greater effort to understand and be understood.

LWolf

(46,179 posts)
62. We probably
Sun Sep 6, 2015, 07:35 PM
Sep 2015

disagree on less that it may seem on the surface. Communication can be hampered in this format.

I'll join you in those efforts.

aikoaiko

(34,153 posts)
45. Bluntly, What's in it for the straight, white, able, middle-class male to address privilege
Sat Sep 5, 2015, 02:08 PM
Sep 2015

I prefer to live my life helping the disadvantaged, the needy, and the wronged, but I don't think I have a good answer for my question.


I've heard people say that doing the correct thing is it's own reward but that not convincing.

I've heard people say that there will be incremental gains in freedom (e.g., wife who can truly assist with household income, being able to marry a person of color, etc) but they don't necessarily amount to much.

I've heard that it's in my best interest to codify and establish equality because as a straight, white, able, m-c male I will be/am a minority and retribution could be severe. Meh.

So, what do you think is in it for me?

I hope this is the type of response you were looking for in order to actually have the conversation that needs to happen.

lovemydog

(11,833 posts)
47. If I may respond, as I think your question
Sat Sep 5, 2015, 02:49 PM
Sep 2015

deserves various responses, I think what's in it for us is a richer more rewarding society. One with fewer resentments and one in which the great potential in every person can be more fully realized.

Much like with women's rights and gay rights, we must first listen to the voices of black people. And be sensitive to them as they have a lot to say. When we've heard them we can achieve friendship and benefit greatly. That's just my take. I don't want to sound glib.

I think your question is a very good one. And in the spirit of the thoughtful original post I just wanted to throw in my two cents for now. It's an ongoing dialogue and I appreciate that you chimed in with your thoughts too. I know that your questions are on other people's minds too.

It's really good to keep discussing with less fear of 'saying the wrong thing.' Hope you're enjoying a nice Labor Day weekend.

aikoaiko

(34,153 posts)
59. Thank you.
Sun Sep 6, 2015, 10:01 AM
Sep 2015

Yes, there are benefits to friendship, but I don't think that's very persuasive.

I don't mean to sound dismissive, but I Think appeals to a greater, better humanity is what most people are looking for in their day to day lives.

But again, thank you.

MrScorpio

(73,630 posts)
49. The Allan Johnson interview videos may answer some of your questions
Sat Sep 5, 2015, 04:24 PM
Sep 2015

Please take the time to check them out, if you haven't yet.

aikoaiko

(34,153 posts)
56. Oy. Watching 2.5 hours of Allan Johnson is harsh. I rec watching the 2nd.
Sat Sep 5, 2015, 08:15 PM
Sep 2015

Last edited Sun Sep 6, 2015, 12:25 PM - Edit history (3)

The 2nd Allan Johnson video contains everything the first does, plus a little more on disabilities.

Well, I'l still kind of reeling from defensiveness someone like me experiences when listening to privilege discussions.

I still don't buy the rhetorical parsing of blame and responsibility. The example of his residence hall director friend who chose applicants with a desire to serve and meet others over those who were doing it for money was to blame for the classist decisions and outcomes and he was responsible for making different decisions. I don't understand how he can say he wasn't to blame for those decisions.

I still don't understand the point of his hypothetical monopoly game where he says we don't blame the individual for being greedy because thats the nature of the game. People are greedy in monopoly because they want to win. Winning is fun in monopoly and in real life. You are what you do.

Anyway, but back to my question. What is in it for the straight, white, able, middle-class male to address privilege?

Allan Johnson doesn't really offer much. He thinks people who don't address these issues are less than human, less moral, and less spiritual. I'm pretty sure the straight, white, able, middle-class male who doesn't address privilege is perfectly comfortable with his degree of humanity/morality/spirituality (lesser though it may be according to Allan Johnson).

If that's the best answer, then so be it, but its pretty easy to understand why the straight, white, able, middle-class male may be resistant to addressing straight, white, able, middle-class male privilege. After all, its not his fault, Allan Johnson might say. He's just trying to win the game that we're all playing regardless if some have advantages or not.

eta: I finished the other videos. In the Peggy McIntosh video, once again, a distinction between guilt/blame and responsibility is claimed, but there doesn't seem to be any real distinction. She sounds like she was wracked with guilt thinking something was given to her that she did not earn. I've never quite seen anything like that. Then I realized what bothered me about McIntosh's and Johnson's videos -- they were acting like they found religion. They found the religion of washing away white sins and now they are evangelizing the good word. Its a similar narrative as Christianity where we are all born sinners (not our fault), but nevertheless we sin (complicity of living in the racist system and reaping the benefits of privilege) and our only chance at redemption is to speak the truth (whites are privileged and we must change what we do). And then we will be more human, more spiritual, more moral, and more compassionate.

Do you see that at all?

Anyway, I'll keep thinking about what you wrote and the content of the videos. Thank you for taking the time and making the effort to engage in discussion. I'll do what I can.

Eta: I watched the white supremacy test dude and I found some of his questions bizarre as examples of white supremacy. I couldn't get through the wandelen video because the soundtrack was so distracting.









brush

(53,721 posts)
78. I didn't get the name of the guy in the white supremacy video
Mon Sep 14, 2015, 08:56 PM
Sep 2015

Also, where can I find more by him?

Thank you for all the info you continue to provide for us here on DU.

AuntPatsy

(9,904 posts)
58. Read through our Op and I have to say it was worth every moment, I wish I had time to
Sat Sep 5, 2015, 10:44 PM
Sep 2015

Read the links and view the videos but these days it's kind of hit and miss, I know I lose out on many good reads for lack of time and or a more silent setting but you touched on so many issues that overwhelm so many of us and your words touched me, if we had more of you and others I've found time to listen to then perhaps I would have faith in our species,

But sadly there are simply not enough IMHO and with our history as a species simply playing the same tunes over and over my faith is no longer alive. It's good to know others still have hope and dare to dream.........

bravo



mia

(8,358 posts)
60. Thank you, MrScorpio.
Sun Sep 6, 2015, 11:57 AM
Sep 2015

I'm looking forward to reading your links and watching the videos. At first reading of your introduction, I was reminded of Philosophy 101 when we read "The Republic". I loved that class.

I can see myself in some of the "28 COMMON RACIST ATTITUDES AND BEHAVIORS".

hfojvt

(37,573 posts)
68. I gotta say
Sun Sep 13, 2015, 06:51 PM
Sep 2015

not that it will make any difference

that as a straight, white, male, society has never considered me normal.

MrScorpio

(73,630 posts)
69. Has straight, white, male society ever considered you and your own whiteness threatening…
Sun Sep 13, 2015, 06:59 PM
Sep 2015

Or just quirky?

hfojvt

(37,573 posts)
74. I am not sure where this society is
Mon Sep 14, 2015, 05:25 PM
Sep 2015

this straight white male society.

but yes, various people have considered me threatening. The cop who put me in hand cuffs was a white male. He may have been gay, but he was a white male. He called for back up too (while giving me a ticket for not wearing a seat belt) and I turn around and there are like five cop cars there.

I had just worked a ten hour night shift too. I was standing there in cuffs and I said "I need to sit down before I fall down."

Many times I get profile too, for wearing a back pack. One night I was walking home from dropping off a rental car, stopped at Wal-mart and was just about done shopping when two store security people said "you cannot have that backpack in here." and one of them - was a black guy (oh, the irony).

I kind of wanted to just walk out and leave them to deal with a cart full of stuff that I was gonna purchase, but the pop was on sale and I wanted the cheap pop, so I took their crap and the extra walking they made me do.

But those are just stories.

The other point is, even if they "just" see you are quirky, the general rule is - the world is not very nice to you.

MrScorpio

(73,630 posts)
76. Well, this is interesting…
Mon Sep 14, 2015, 07:43 PM
Sep 2015

Because, upthread you said that you've never been considered "normal" by white male society. OK.

That gave me the impression that you were aware of it, like perhaps it's surrounding you as it's surrounding all of the rest of us. I mean, you were the one who brought it up first, in regards to yourself, right?

Look, I don't know what is threatening about you, as we've never met.

However, I will hazard a guess that, whatever it is, it has absolutely nothing to do with the color of your own skin, the fact that you're a man and that you're straight. So, with that being the case, we can safely assess that your problem isn't race, gender or sexual preference based bias against you within our white supremacist, male dominated and heteronormal society.

You're a male, you're straight and you're white, so that means that within the hierarchy of patriarchy, straightness and white supremacy, you retain the status of standardized normality. You really can't claim that you've been discriminated against based on those factors alone. As I've said before in your case, it must be something else.

You've said that the world is not a nice place. On that point, I wholeheartedly agree. But consider for a moment how the world threats people when they're simply non-white, non-heterosexual, non-male or all three. It's going to treat these people badly on these factors alone and for reasons for, not of which, you will not be treated well.

So, there's no real comparison on the basis of your own whiteness, maleness and straightness. You've got something else going on there for you.






hfojvt

(37,573 posts)
80. I said society
Wed Sep 16, 2015, 02:23 AM
Sep 2015

Of course that includes the white males in society, in general.

But society is not made up entirely of white males, so I am not sure where the white male society is supposed to be.

Do you see what you have done there? My problems are not based on race, gender or sexual orientation, therefore what? They don't matter to you? or to anybody? they are insignificant compared to the problems you faced? Or my sister faced? Or Doctor D (who is gay, and always did set off even my gaydar but did not come out of the closet until his mid twenties or so) faced?

Now in my life, I have not known a lot of black people for very long. So I cannot really see how the world has treated them. Dr. D is a college friend of my sister, so I don't know him that well either. But my three sisters I have known for all of my life. The world has not treated them badly at all. If they are supposed, in this theory, to have taken a whole bunch of lumps, which I have been spared? Well, I am not seeing it at all. What is the world supposed to have done to them?

MrScorpio

(73,630 posts)
81. That's right, society isn't made up entirely of straight white males…
Fri Sep 18, 2015, 09:14 AM
Sep 2015

Which makes patriarchy, heteronormality and white supremacy so very wrong as institutionalized standards in order to judge everyone else in America.

As I've said before, I have no idea what your problems are, and they seem to be extensive. But, be that as it may, we can all safely rule out the status of your race, gender and sexual orientation as the culprits. White straight males simply aren't a disadvantaged class in this country.

 

lumberjack_jeff

(33,224 posts)
70. If the Hillary campaign fails to get traction using rhetoric "A", try rhetoric "B"
Sun Sep 13, 2015, 08:07 PM
Sep 2015

Even if you have to blow a fairly thick layer of dust off it.

I give them credit for that much.

DemocraticWing

(1,290 posts)
72. Excellent post
Mon Sep 14, 2015, 01:54 AM
Sep 2015

There's a lot of info here, but amazingly it only scratches the surface of the issues presented.

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