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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWhy should someone who is transgender not use the facilities they identify with?
Last edited Wed Sep 9, 2015, 01:37 PM - Edit history (2)
I am writing she/he and girls/boys, please put the genders together when you read. Perhaps "identified gender:people of the same identified gender" would be more accurate, but it seemed clumsy to write.
I sincerely do not understand the reasoning behind not allowing a person to use the facility (restroom, locker room) that they identify with.
Also, I will be on and off DU for a couple days at random times so may not be able to answer/reply quickly.
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ETA, thank you for all the replies and votes. The proper answer is they should use the facilities they identify with.
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She/he will be checking out the other girls/boys | |
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The other girls/boys will be checking out her/him | |
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The other girls/boys are in danger from her/him | |
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She/he is in danger from the other girls/boys | |
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People claim they are transgender to be voyeurs or assault others | |
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This used to be "obigatory other" but I edited it down and this one stayed blank. Odd. | |
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They should be able to use the facilities they identify with | |
20 (91%) |
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Obligatory other | |
2 (9%) |
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0 DU members did not wish to select any of the options provided. | |
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roody
(10,849 posts)is transg? I don't inspect other people using the same facilities as me. People who do should be banned.
etherealtruth
(22,165 posts)... let me assure you I have no desire to peer into stalls when someone is using the facility.
Tree-Hugger
(3,378 posts)....that they should carry papers documenting their hotomones, surgeries, etc. Hope the suggestion was in jest.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)which might in most cases be the one they identify with, but my daughter has a transgender friend who is afraid to use the boy's bathroom/locker room at school because he's afraid he'll get bullied. I feel like he should be able to use whichever he wants, and since he wants to use the girls' room, that's fine too. And when there is a school trip or trip with another group they're both in, he chooses to room with the girls. I guess I wouldn't want to see a rule that they HAVE to use the facility they identify with either.
uppityperson
(115,814 posts)I would like to know what people are worried about, why they think the way they do as understanding why someone thinks, how they think, is the first step in figuring out how to alleviate those fears.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)Someone said it would be too traumatic to buy a tampon from a vending machine in front of a transgender person. Why on earth would that be a problem? I can't even imagine why that would be an issue. It's ridiculous.
TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)I don't think most women want to walk around in a towel in front of the guys.
Oneironaut
(5,760 posts)It literally drives some people crazy if everybody doesn't think like they do / isn't like them.
gvstn
(2,805 posts)If you are a transgendered teen that you have a lot more on your mind than checking out the people in the lockerroom of the gender you identify with. It is probably the last thing on the kid's mind when they have to choose which bathroom/lockerroom to use.
The public bathroom is the last place that I could find something sexy to think about.
REP
(21,691 posts)That's not a reason for discrimination but a reason for better supervision.
Teens are very self-conscious.
They think everything that happens to them is the first time it every happened in the history of man. If Suzie has a pimple on her breast that she thinks is disgusting, guess what, Jimmy don't care about that pimple if he gets to see your breast.
I'm just saying that using a bathroom/lockerroom should not be a big deal. And you are right that supervision is necessary for the first couple weeks until everyone gets used to it. But using the bathroom being of whatever gender should not be a big deal, we all do it at home.
My mother was in a wheelchair and needed help using some public toilets. I, as a male, went into several women's bathrooms to assist and never heard one word of complaint from anyone. The women went about their business (which I could hear) but I never had one single person complain or be afraid. This is a made up problem.
REP
(21,691 posts)Many, especially those in older buildings, have common showers without stalls and locker/changing areas without privacy - everyone undresses/dresses in full view of others. When I was in school, one could opt out of showering, but changing in and out of gym uniforms was not optional. Schools with that sort of locker/shower arrangements would benefit from supervision, no matter is trans students are present or not. It's not about pimples (hint, women don't get breast pimples); it's about bullying.
Why no one said anything about you being in a handicap stall with your wheelchair-bound mother is because you were in a handicap stall with your wheelchair-bound mother. If you'd been loitering in the Ladies sans a disabled woman or a very young girl, I'm sure you would have gotten a few questions if not an escort from Security.
As a gay man, I did not know about breast pimples (thanks!).
I hated lockerrooms when I was in school (and communal showers). I'm just saying from an adult prospective it should not be a big deal. Trans or not, just changing into gym shorts isn't worth having a fight over or making laws. No trans kid cares about what the person next to them looks like unless they want to emulate some aspect of their appearance.They're not even really getting naked, just changing their outer garments. I think most schools now have shower stalls where the kids get a little privacy. Communal showers are a thing of the past (thankfully).
REP
(21,691 posts)But bullies will. That's my point. Hetero, cis kids get bullied. Kids who "look" or "act" gay get bullied. LGBT kids get bullied. A trans kid with a non-gender conforming body really could use some back up in the form of knowing NO ONE gets bullied in the locker room.
Communal showers are still in existence in some schools in the US. Not all school districts have the money to revamp crap that works.
gvstn
(2,805 posts)When bullying occurs is a crappy teacher. I'm just not sure of your point. I'm saying that anyone that identifies with a certain gender should be able to use that gender's lockerroom/bathroom and it is no big deal. What are you saying?
REP
(21,691 posts)Adults may not care, but there's more to consider than innies and outlines when schools and kids are being discussed. Discrimination isn't the answer. Supervision is. (And male coaches aren't allowed in the girls' lockers.)
gvstn
(2,805 posts)Supervision in schools is fine and good. There should be more of it in the lockerroom. But why concentrate on that when we are trying to debate whether transgendered people should be able to use the bathroom of their identified gender? Normal people just don't care what someone is doing in the other stall. I don't think so, anyway. I never have.
uppityperson
(115,814 posts)gvstn
(2,805 posts)I thought they did but didn't want to fight about it.
REP
(21,691 posts)And never on my boobs. Just one on my chin every 28 days.
I don't recall anyone I know ever complaining about boob pimples, either!
uppityperson
(115,814 posts)embarrassing. "Like, omg, I've got pimples on my boobs!!!!". Nope, more of a "oh crap" thing.
Tree-Hugger
(3,378 posts)Body acne plagues many women (and men) and is something they tend to keep hidden out of embarrassment. It's way more common than people think.
REP
(21,691 posts)I have a very localized case of a specific form of hidradenitis suppurtiva, a number of precancerous skin growths and several bouts of cellulitis or MRSA, so I'm very familiar with skin conditions no one wants to see or discuss. Even in the hottest weather I wear long pants to cover the scarring on my legs.
Tree-Hugger
(3,378 posts)I know because I get it and it's an issue I have been dealing with since I was a teenager (in my 30's) now. Males wearing certain shirts and swimwear difficult. I hear you on being covered up in hot weather.
Women do get acne on their chest.
HappyPlace
(568 posts)If it's a one holer.
I think we should be moving toward unisex restrooms.
We evolved beyond race-separated facilities, it's time we do the same with men/women/trans.
Response to HappyPlace (Reply #7)
BarstowCowboy This message was self-deleted by its author.
Shandris
(3,447 posts)If GENDER identification is a cause for using a different facility (and it absolutely should be!), and gender identification is not binary to begin with, then why try to fit into binary facilities? It's so...arbitrary.
ChazII
(6,319 posts)TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)Of which half are women, and most women are not comfortable entering a bathroom where they know men might be lurking.
MtF trans persons should use the designated female bathroom, FtM trans should use the designated male bathroom. If it's just one or two single bathrooms, use the one that's available first.
uppityperson
(115,814 posts)SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)LostOne4Ever
(9,590 posts)PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)Someone correct me if I'm wrong, I'm learning, too.
uppityperson
(115,814 posts)madville
(7,449 posts)For example it could be uncomfortable to many in a female public restroom or locker room if a former male who now identifies as a woman but still maintains a male appearance and wardrobe uses those facilities.
uppityperson
(115,814 posts)room? No, I don't think that'd work though it is how some people are.
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)As was said downthread, use the stalls. Who cares who you wash your hands with?
ileus
(15,396 posts)backscatter712
(26,355 posts)I know, some people have a really hard time with the concept that a person has a right to determine his/her/zir own identity.
randome
(34,845 posts)Segregation of bodily waste elimination is ridiculous.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]
DefenseLawyer
(11,101 posts)It's just one more thing for the repressed to freak out about.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)Here's a thread made a while ago about Austin making all single bathrooms gender neutral, holy shit did some posters go completely batshit on this.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=876383
These are single bathrooms, not stalls, it was and is fucking ridiculous.
uppityperson
(115,814 posts)because they are a hotbed of sin?
greymattermom
(5,794 posts)eom
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)As long as Big Brother is not watching you do your business, who cares?
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)in highway rest stops, for example, without fear of consequence, because they can always claim to "identify as a female", under the rules that most here seem to favor?
Please don't think I'm bigoted. I have no problem with genuine transgender people using the restroom they identify with. But as a husband and a father of daughters I'm keenly aware that there are creepy, predatory males out there and I am not as sanguine as some about making it easier for them to prey on women in public restrooms.
LostOne4Ever
(9,590 posts)[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]Why would they bother pretending to be transgender if what they are doing is already illegal?
If they are just hang out in the restroom but not bothering anyone why should they be punished?
Personally I am for gender neutral restrooms with FULL private stalls. Then, you, as their father, could make sure no one bothers them.[/font]
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)Who decides which transgender person is genuine? The gender police?
Loitering in public bathrooms is already a crime in many states. It doesn't matter what your gender identification is. You can't do that.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)For myself, as a guy I really don't care who uses which restroom. But I'm pretty sure women are safer if biological men with no medical history of being transgender are kept out of their restrooms.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)Or will the gender police "just know" which people to check?
I'm sorry, but I find your reasoning here massively offensive. Perhaps transgender people should just wear an armband that identifies them?
Tree-Hugger
(3,378 posts)How does one decide who is fit to enter a restroom without documentation and who isn't? Is there a certain feminity standard? What about women who - for reasons of personal style, genetics, endocrine issues, or whatever - don't fit into our cultures feminine ideal box? Plenty of hetero biological women out there who look stereotypically masculine. Would they need to provide documentation? A bloodied pad, perhaps?
uppityperson
(115,814 posts)backscatter712
(26,355 posts)Yep, this proposal just keeps getting better and better!
Tree-Hugger
(3,378 posts)Then they can wear special armbands as identification.
<-_---- just in case
uppityperson
(115,814 posts)their treatment? Are you seriously saying people who are transgender not only are required to have surgery and/or hormone treatment but also to carry documentation?
Seriously?
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)Nosiree, everyone processing trans people's personal medical records for the purpose of granting him/her/zir a Pee License would always be on the up and up, and there would never be abuses.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)backscatter712
(26,355 posts)Tends to keep them from, you know, being assaulted and murdered, and disowned, and fired, and evicted. Not that you've shown the slightest sign of giving a shit about that.
Tree-Hugger
(3,378 posts)Are you aware of the struggles transgender people face in this country?
Somehow, I think you are.....
MillennialDem
(2,367 posts)presenting as that gender.
As for requiring hormones, no, that's a load of baloney. Most will be on hormones by the time they do that, but it shouldn't be a requirement for a number of reasons. Some medically can't take hormones for example and others want to try out presenting as the opposite sex first.
As for surgery, just no. How dare you force a trans person to have surgery to fit your narrative of what man and woman are - not to mention not all can have the surgery medically, some can't afford it, and some don't want it (some are happy with the parts they have and tinkering with them can make them depressed or in rare cases the surgery can be a failure, leading to death or health problems - lack of orgasm, lack of bladder or bowel control, etc).
mainer
(12,157 posts)should have no problem using women's restrooms. Most women wouldn't feel threatened by the Caitlin Jenners of the world.
I would feel threatened however if a man who looks like a man comes into my rest stop restroom at night and I'm the only woman in there.
MillennialDem
(2,367 posts)but if a man who looks like a man is in your restroom, 99.9999% chance he's not an mtf trans woman, he's just a creeper who happens to be a cis man.
A trans woman is not going to go into the women's bathroom until she looks female.
mainer
(12,157 posts)I'm certainly not going to check. As long as they identify as female, and have made some attempt to look female, they can come into the women's restroom. I just don't want guys who look like guys coming in.
For as long as I can remember, I've had to escort my mother-in-law into public restrooms and stand guard outside her stall. She was so paranoid of being attacked that she wouldn't go into a public restroom alone. I suspect she was sexually abused sometime in her youth. If a man (who looked like a man) had come in, she would have been hysterical.
uppityperson
(115,814 posts)Excellent, thank you.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)winter is coming
(11,785 posts)They could just as easily dress as a maintenance worker as a woman. Statistically, your daughters are far more likely to be assaulted by someone they--and you--know. If you're going to worry about them, I'd keep an eye on neighbors, coaches, teachers, people at church, etc.
LostOne4Ever
(9,590 posts)[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]Faith in DU and in humanity greatly restored [/font]
LuvNewcastle
(17,012 posts)but it wouldn't be okay for a lot of people. Until America grows up, I think we should build extra bathrooms: male, female, and anybody. There usually aren't enough bathrooms to accommodate people in a lot of public areas, anyway. People who don't care would have an extra option when they go out, and besides, it would get the public used to the idea of gender neutral bathrooms.
KamaAina
(78,249 posts)Response to uppityperson (Original post)
Proud Liberal Dem This message was self-deleted by its author.
Tree-Hugger
(3,378 posts)Tree-Hugger
(3,378 posts)....something to be concerned about so they can work themselves into a lather.
Proud Liberal Dem
(24,770 posts)What does that stand for?
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)In other words, feminists who are bigoted against trans people. They're the Westboro Baptist Church of feminism.
Proud Liberal Dem
(24,770 posts)Wasn't there?
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)Being a grad student, I can't be on DU 24/7...
Tree-Hugger
(3,378 posts)Someone mention them in another post that expressed "concern" over transgender folks using bathrooms.
TERF's are a lot like MRAs. It would almost be hilarious if they were so fucking scary.
LostOne4Ever
(9,590 posts)[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]Or more specifically trans exclusionary radical feminist.
Same thing basically.[/font]
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)Yes, in the other thread, a certain person is seriously proposing that in order to be able to pee in the bathroom of your gender identity, you would have to present papers to the bathroom cops. Letter from your psychologist (oh, that wouldn't cause privacy problems) would serve as documentation of gender identity.
Tree-Hugger
(3,378 posts)They register with the government as transgender. The government can give them special patches or armbands (maybe bedazzled) so the rest of society can identify them.
I'm sure some people would think it's a brilliant idea.
Juicy_Bellows
(2,427 posts)Nothing quite like rolling into a long trough with ice in it. Yeeesh.
icymist
(15,888 posts)Unfortunately, some people can only find hatred and ways to hate others. If they can only see past their hatred and get educated on the matter they may find that the State issues ID and drivers license which are used for identification. Transgender people usually have to get a court order to get the name and sex changed on that identification. They must get a judge to see that they are under treatment, whether medically, psychological, or both, in order for this to happen. Sorry to rain on people's parade that only see a way to discriminate against part of the LGBT community.
LostOne4Ever
(9,590 posts)FrodosPet
(5,169 posts)This fact has been witnessed by anyone who have been to multiple sporting events and concerts.
It should not be a big deal.