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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsDo we have too many sadists among our nation's cops and prison guards?
From the large number of cases we've seen lately of cops badly beating up innocent
civilians for no apparent reason, it wouldn't be difficult to come to the question, "Are
Police Departments Hiring Too Many Sadistically Inclined Job Applicants to be Cops?"
Sadists enjoy causing pain and suffering to others. I can imagine the numbers of
them might be even higher among prison guards, where they can beat and humiliate
prisoners and not be found out for having done so. Prison guards can do it with
impunity.
Police Departments and Prisons ought to be provided by their superiors with the means to
screen out sadistically inclined job applicants, and fire those sadists already employed,
who are found performing such acts. Such primitive types should not be given authority
over people. They, themselves, need to bear watching!
Is there any way of starting such a movement -- and nationwide? Enough is enough.!
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hollysmom
(5,946 posts)an effect of the job and the way relationships are defined in prison.
sakabatou
(42,146 posts)
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)For those who are unfamiliar...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment
The participants adapted to their roles well beyond Zimbardo's expectations, as the guards enforced authoritarian measures and ultimately subjected some of the prisoners to psychological torture. Many of the prisoners passively accepted psychological abuse and, at the request of the guards, readily harassed other prisoners who attempted to prevent it. The experiment even affected Zimbardo himself, who, in his role as the superintendent, permitted the abuse to continue.[5][6] Two of the prisoners quit the experiment early, and the entire experiment was abruptly stopped after only six days, to an extent because of the objections of Christina Maslach. Certain portions of the experiment were filmed, and excerpts of footage are publicly available.
Or better yet, watch this. It's about 20 minutes, but well worth it.
Cal33
(7,018 posts)Cal33
(7,018 posts)Last edited Mon Sep 21, 2015, 10:12 AM - Edit history (1)
more inclined to apply for such a job, to begin with. Other types of people would
find that kind of work too repulsive and depressing.
Newly hired people ought be strictly warned to avoid such behavior. Self-defense,
and I mean real self-defense (not a cooked-up story), is a different thing.
hollysmom
(5,946 posts)I don't see many ways of controlling it - there are so many corrupting power struggles in a prison. everyone wants power over others. And, just like in the real word, money talks.
Cal33
(7,018 posts)could make it a point that their staff have frequent meetings to boost up their morale
in not falling to temptation.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)sadism, per se, I suspect this is the type carrying out most of the abuse, both authoritarian followers and leaders. They tend to be very punitive and biased against anyone who gets into conflict with the authority they follow. Likely innocence, btw, often may make no difference at all -- charges put them on the wrong side of that fence.
BTW, newer technical terms are in use for these personalities, which turn up professional discussion (in part to not have it too visible, I suspect), but it's been awhile and I tend to forget them.
Cal33
(7,018 posts)Hortensis
(58,785 posts)come up with current professional search terms. Social dominance orientation theory is another that's generated a lot of writing describing a type of person who can pretty much be counted on to abuse people of lesser power.
FWIW, the authoritarian followers and leaders research findings have been confirmed many times many places, but research has developed this direction greatly.
I recently read something from Karen Stenner, who studies authoritarians and also identifies the same 3 types of conservatism, which she calls status quo conservatism, laissez-faire conservatism, and authoritarianism/social conservatism. Some snippets:
"Authoritarianism (and not conservatism, lack of
education, or religion) is the principal determinant
of intolerance of difference across time and
space and domain, that is, across any stretch of
history, all cultures and every aspect (including
racial, political and moral intolerance)."
"Conservatives, Stenner argues, will embrace racial diversity, civil liberties and moral freedom to the extent they are already institutionalized authoritatively-supported traditions, and are therefore supportive of social stability. Conservatives tend to be drawn to authoritarianism when public opinion is fractious and there is a loss of confidence in public institutions, but in general they value stability and certainty over increased uniformity. Authoritarians however, Stenner says, want difference restricted even when so doing would require significant social change and instability."
While identifying the usually nice-faced people who turn into monsters in the wrong circumstances, it's equally worth noting that this also identifies the kind of conservatives we should be working WITH, potential allies on many issues. Erasing most misunderstandings, if not all the differences, that create most of the vast gulf between us, would bring us closer together and would leave the authoritarians standing a lot more alone.
Here's a link to a Karen Stenner paper on conservatives, but Robert Altemeyer's "The Authoritarians" is a lot more fun to read.
[link:http://ussc.edu.au/s/media/docs/publications/1006_Inequality_Stenner.pdf|
LiberalArkie
(15,707 posts)Remember back with Hoffa's teamsters and how brutal they were. They are in a bubble where they only talk and listen to each other. The thought goes out of ones mouth into anothers ear and out their mouth, no thinking required. They go to their union meetings and are told how to treat "those people", they target shoot with targets of "those people". The only people they socialize with are their family and fellow union members. When they drink they go to cop bars etc. Just like the Republicans, they live in an echo chamber. Their union is going to have to step up and take the lead in cleaning it up.
Cal33
(7,018 posts)the unions were headed by the mafia. Of course all kinds of problems evolved from there.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)Read any of the many books about people's experiences in prison and this is obvious.
And the ones who don't make the police or become prison guards will be attracted to the TSA.
Cal33
(7,018 posts)some will slip through, and their sadistic drives will eventually show up. So, fire them.
Now, if the warden, himself, should be a sadist! That would be really bad!
Cal33
(7,018 posts)one do you have in mind?
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)Cal33
(7,018 posts)Dems to Win
(2,161 posts)Years ago, Ted Rall wrote a column suggesting that we should draft cops and prison guards from the general population, rather than hiring those who apply for the job. Anyone who applies wants to be a bully, so by definition, we don't want that person doing the job.
Of course, there are problems with the draft idea. Who would want to be the loser in that lottery? It violates our ideals of freedom.
But still, there are merits to the idea of giving the job to those who do not seek it.
csziggy
(34,133 posts)Even though in the original experiment students that enrolled were screened for aggression, almost immediately the "guards" began attempting to dominate the "prisoners." On a show about it I saw recently (I think on the Smithsonian Channel, but I'm not sure which channel or what show) they discussed how quickly the experiment got out of control because of this tendency.
One point made on the show that I have not read in any of the articles about it was that in other similar experiments it was found that the "guards" testosterone levels went up while the "prisoners" levels went down. The increase in testosterone was blamed for the cruelty and dominance of the "guards" - but the original Stanford Experiment only lasted six days before it was cancelled, maybe too short a time for a biological response to the situation to occur.
The testosterone results caught my attention. I've wondered for years if some of the police abuse and violence could be blamed on the use of anabolic steroids. But if simply putting people in charge of others' fates can increase testosterone, could that cause the apparent "roid rage" we see in many law enforcement officers even if they are not using steroids?
Dems to Win
(2,161 posts)At least they would be immune to testosterone poisoning.
Seriously, though, you bring up very good points. I don't know what the answer is.
csziggy
(34,133 posts)Previously I've suggested that LEOs involved in violent events with civilians should be drug tested - thinking that they had been misusing steroids. After hearing the bit about testosterone, maybe all police should be tested periodically for changes in hormones that could affect their performance.
It would make a good thesis subject!
Cal33
(7,018 posts)2 years and murderers got 7 years for their crimes. And very few Swiss were rapists
or murderers.
And the Swiss were known for treating their prisoners well. How do the Swiss manage
it? Maybe we could send our wardens there to learn from them. I 've read that the
Swedes, by our standards, are also "soft" on crime, and their crime rate is also low.
Our prisons, unfortunately, do have a reputation for brutality.
csziggy
(34,133 posts)That is far too invested in revenge and punishment. Many European countries purged themselves of this cult by evicting the followers or insisting that they obey the government without putting their religion over law.
Unfortunately here it was those Puritans and other religious fanatics who made our laws and set the standards.
Cal33
(7,018 posts)
CrispyQ
(36,437 posts)That, coupled with our love of revenge & punishment makes for a toxic mix.
Cal33
(7,018 posts)tennis at the dinner table. His father replied derisively that tennis was a game for sissies. Why
not join a team and play in a real man's game, like football?
I don't think there is any other sport where athletes collect a greater variety of serious physical
injuries than in American football, and many of these injuries last a lifetime. Behind it is the
love for the expression of the spirit of aggressiveness. I also read that Joe Louis was once
asked, what he felt about football? He smiled and said, "It's too rough for me."
Cal33
(7,018 posts)to those who are on the active job-seekers list. It doesn't count those who are still looking for
jobs on their own. I wouldn't be surprised if the real jobless rate is closer to 15%). There
are probably many of them who would be glad to work as a cop or prison guard now. They
probably would quit, though, when times become better.
whatthehey
(3,660 posts)There is no "active job seekers list" and the Household Survey, the source of UE data, just asks if you have made an attempt to get a job, even once, in the last month to be included in U3 and in an entire year to be included in U6, neither of which approaches 15%. There is absolutely no filter for "doing it on your own" versus "being on the (non existent) list", whatever that might be supposed to mean.
http://www.bls.gov/cps/cps_htgm.htm
Cal33
(7,018 posts)Labor Statistics. For years I've been reading about people describing the Official Unemployment Rate and
the real Unemployment Rate. In time I automatically came to look upon that as the truth.
I'll be looking for more info on unemployment rates.
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)But it seems to me that both are jobs that can be had with relatively little education, and grant power over others. That's gonna attract a certain kind of person....
Cal33
(7,018 posts)I mentioned that the real jobless rate is probably much higher than the official 5.5%. Many
decent people would be glad to have any job, including these. This could be a favorable
time to employ decent people, for a change.
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)I would think a better vetting process, and better training would go a long way to helping with that. Not to mention that unions need to stop protecting the bad guys. I'm looking right at the NYPD union.
Iggo
(47,545 posts)Cal33
(7,018 posts)WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)
One_Life_To_Give
(6,036 posts)Like Pyro's to the Fire Service or Moths to a Flame. This undesirable individual will be drawn to such places. I imagine just as I have come to recognize a certain vibe from Pyro's in the Fire Service. Police should be able to pick up on similar vibes from undesirables in their midst. However Vibes are not admissible in a court room or job action. Finding actionable proof can take a while.
Cal33
(7,018 posts)told frequently enough that their very job itself would tempt them to become less sensitive
and later insensitive to people in trouble, and even to become cruel to them. But if they
should ever be found to have brutalized innocent people, they would not only be fired from
their jobs, but also would face prosecution in court and pay the consequences.
And thereafter there would be morale-boosting meetings, say once a month or so, with
fellow police officers and experienced superiors, where they could discuss whatever
difficulties they had experienced....etc.....
This could serve as a part of preventing something unfortunate from happening. I suppose
police departments could also employ mental health workers for this purpose.
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)These jobs by their nature would attract sadists. They can abuse, bully and beat the crap out of people that cannot fight back.
I knew a guy in high school who wanted to be a cop. I asked him why. "So I can beat people up" was his response. And he seemed like a fairly normal person in all other ways.
Cal33
(7,018 posts)was abnormal.
