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Wed Sep 30, 2015, 10:41 AM

 

Russia has started bombing ISIS/coordinating with Syrian gov.

We were training about a dozen (a dozen???) anti ISIS fighters... Russia has launched its first airstrikes, and moved long range bombers into southern Russian bases. Another angle: Russia is friendly with Al-Assad and definitely will try to keep him in charge, or at the very least a like-minded replacement.

To me this looks like we just sat on our hands for too long. I do NOT want US ground troops in Syria, but we could have done a LOT more to combat ISIS than train a few dozen locals on how to shoot straight. ISIS has been committing humane atrocities and destroying world heritage sites for way too long. Now, I guess I have to root for Putin to take out the ISIS trash, even if it means he will keep Al-Assad in power.

My rant is over, I'd like to hear others thoughts on this situation...

http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/30/politics/russia-syria-airstrikes-isis/index.html

134 replies, 9198 views

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Reply Russia has started bombing ISIS/coordinating with Syrian gov. (Original post)
GummyBearz Sep 2015 OP
stevenleser Sep 2015 #1
polly7 Sep 2015 #9
KoKo Sep 2015 #13
stevenleser Sep 2015 #16
polly7 Sep 2015 #17
stevenleser Sep 2015 #18
polly7 Sep 2015 #19
stevenleser Sep 2015 #22
polly7 Sep 2015 #27
stevenleser Sep 2015 #29
polly7 Sep 2015 #30
stevenleser Sep 2015 #32
polly7 Sep 2015 #34
uhnope Sep 2015 #88
polly7 Sep 2015 #100
uhnope Sep 2015 #102
polly7 Sep 2015 #103
uhnope Sep 2015 #107
polly7 Sep 2015 #108
uhnope Sep 2015 #111
polly7 Sep 2015 #112
uhnope Sep 2015 #113
polly7 Sep 2015 #115
jamzrockz Sep 2015 #118
polly7 Sep 2015 #119
bettyellen Sep 2015 #37
polly7 Sep 2015 #38
stevenleser Sep 2015 #39
polly7 Sep 2015 #42
stevenleser Sep 2015 #47
polly7 Sep 2015 #48
bettyellen Sep 2015 #49
polly7 Sep 2015 #50
polly7 Sep 2015 #52
bettyellen Sep 2015 #56
polly7 Sep 2015 #57
bettyellen Sep 2015 #58
polly7 Sep 2015 #59
bettyellen Sep 2015 #60
polly7 Sep 2015 #61
bettyellen Sep 2015 #65
polly7 Sep 2015 #67
bettyellen Sep 2015 #69
polly7 Sep 2015 #71
bettyellen Sep 2015 #77
betsuni Sep 2015 #104
polly7 Sep 2015 #105
polly7 Sep 2015 #120
840high Sep 2015 #41
polly7 Sep 2015 #43
Comrade Grumpy Sep 2015 #72
polly7 Sep 2015 #74
bettyellen Sep 2015 #78
stevenleser Sep 2015 #82
polly7 Sep 2015 #106
bettyellen Oct 2015 #125
polly7 Sep 2015 #109
uhnope Sep 2015 #87
Jesus Malverde Sep 2015 #92
uhnope Sep 2015 #95
Jesus Malverde Sep 2015 #96
uhnope Sep 2015 #97
Jesus Malverde Sep 2015 #98
Rex Sep 2015 #84
stevenleser Sep 2015 #86
denbot Sep 2015 #2
moondust Sep 2015 #11
ellisonz Sep 2015 #62
GreatGazoo Sep 2015 #3
KoKo Sep 2015 #12
Puzzledtraveller Sep 2015 #91
GreatGazoo Sep 2015 #99
Xolodno Sep 2015 #4
ozone_man Sep 2015 #7
karynnj Sep 2015 #5
KoKo Sep 2015 #14
GreatGazoo Sep 2015 #21
leveymg Sep 2015 #64
Comrade Grumpy Sep 2015 #114
polly7 Sep 2015 #116
Blue_Tires Sep 2015 #6
GreatGazoo Sep 2015 #20
polly7 Sep 2015 #8
KoKo Sep 2015 #15
polly7 Sep 2015 #40
ozone_man Sep 2015 #51
polly7 Sep 2015 #53
GreatGazoo Sep 2015 #85
polly7 Sep 2015 #101
KG Sep 2015 #10
geek tragedy Sep 2015 #23
stevenleser Sep 2015 #24
geek tragedy Sep 2015 #25
stevenleser Sep 2015 #28
geek tragedy Sep 2015 #31
stevenleser Sep 2015 #46
Comrade Grumpy Sep 2015 #55
geek tragedy Sep 2015 #66
Comrade Grumpy Sep 2015 #73
polly7 Sep 2015 #75
geek tragedy Sep 2015 #76
killbotfactory Sep 2015 #110
geek tragedy Sep 2015 #117
killbotfactory Oct 2015 #122
polly7 Oct 2015 #123
geek tragedy Oct 2015 #124
killbotfactory Oct 2015 #127
geek tragedy Oct 2015 #128
killbotfactory Oct 2015 #129
geek tragedy Oct 2015 #130
killbotfactory Oct 2015 #131
geek tragedy Oct 2015 #132
killbotfactory Oct 2015 #133
geek tragedy Oct 2015 #134
still_one Sep 2015 #26
romanic Sep 2015 #33
Puzzledtraveller Sep 2015 #93
Proud Liberal Dem Sep 2015 #35
Tarheel_Dem Sep 2015 #80
treestar Sep 2015 #36
840high Sep 2015 #44
KamaAina Sep 2015 #45
underthematrix Sep 2015 #54
GummyBearz Sep 2015 #63
Name removed Sep 2015 #68
davidn3600 Sep 2015 #70
fadedrose Sep 2015 #79
Tarheel_Dem Sep 2015 #81
Rex Sep 2015 #83
Puzzledtraveller Sep 2015 #90
Rex Oct 2015 #121
Puzzledtraveller Sep 2015 #89
Jesus Malverde Sep 2015 #94
Jake Stern Oct 2015 #126

Response to GummyBearz (Original post)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 10:43 AM

1. I'm not sure I am unhappy about all of this. I think we should let the Russian's own it.

 

This is the best of both worlds.

Someone beats the crap out of ISIS, and we are not responsible for the inevitable power vacuum induced catastrophic aftermath and/or prop up of a dictator.

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #1)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 01:04 PM

9. ISIS was created by the power vacuum induced by the catastrophic

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Response to polly7 (Reply #9)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 01:08 PM

13. ...!

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Response to polly7 (Reply #9)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 01:19 PM

16. Yes they were. And? nt

 

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #16)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 01:20 PM

17. And ...........

the hypocrisy.

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Response to polly7 (Reply #17)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 01:21 PM

18. No hypocrisy. Obama did not invade Iraq. We don't need another quagmire.

 

Let the Russians have the quagmire.

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #18)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 01:25 PM

19. 'The quagmire' was caused by the brutal destruction of a nation long on

the PNAC hit list. Who mentioned Obama?

At least Russia is trying to stop the death and destruction caused by the west. 'Let them have the quagmire' - what about western responsibility in causing it, funding it, and along with our 'Allies' using ISIS while at the same time pretending to want them destroyed?

You seem quite flippant about all of this ............... do the hundreds of thousands maimed and killed and tens of thousands trying to flee bother you at all? The little 3 y/o lying dead on the beach and thousands of others drowned - 'let Russia deal with the quagmire'. Typical.

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Response to polly7 (Reply #19)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 01:43 PM

22. Your posts are a rapidly accelerating gish gallop of unfocused points and accusations.

 

I love how, for instance, you have somehow made me responsible for Syria and Iraq and the deaths therein after my initial point was not wanting to be involved in another war and when I protested the Iraq war.

The illogical contortions that you have engaged in to get there are quite stunning.

No, "The West" is not responsible for Iraq. The Bush administration is responsible for Iraq. For starters, outside of the UK, most of "The West" told the Bush administration to go jump in a lake.

Outside of the use of an as yet uninvented machine to time travel back and prevent the election of George W. Bush, there is little anyone alive can do right now to change what is happening in Syria and Iraq.

The best thing the US can do is to not create further problems. If Russia wants to involve itself in a situation that external actors cannot resolve, let them.

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #22)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 02:03 PM

27. And your posts are a rapidly accelerating attempt to

paint the west as innocent in all of this misery and suffering while getting in as much red baiting as possible.

I know that you don't care about the deaths of small children, so I didn't expect an answer to that.

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Response to polly7 (Reply #27)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 02:04 PM

29. LOL, good luck with that interpretation. nt

 

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #29)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 02:05 PM

30. Yes, it's all a huge laugh.

........... and as always, disgusting.

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Response to polly7 (Reply #30)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 02:06 PM

32. As always, trying to mischaracterize other folks posts laughing at your lack of logic

 

to mean something else.

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #32)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 02:08 PM

34. Nah ................ I don't really care about anyone laughing at me,

it's making light of suffering and horror and death - especially children that disgusts me.

Go ahead and laugh at me, steven - do you think that bothers me one single fuck?

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Response to polly7 (Reply #34)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 09:03 PM

88. that's good because LOL once again

 

West bad...Gaddafi was good. We know your schtick.

Is Assad good now too, because he's fighting the "west" and Putin is on his side???? Please answer. I need another sick laugh

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Response to uhnope (Reply #88)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 10:25 PM

100. Just Gross.

You try so, so hard. I'm going to get teeny little medals for every time you bring up big bad Putin when it comes to the horror created in the ME. How fucking sick and sad is it that the horror they have suffered, and are suffering, is such a laugh for you.

The Wicked War on Syria

by Rick Sterling / September 29th, 2015

This description is widespread but misleading. In his 2007 article Seymour Hersh exposed the U.S. promotion of Sunni fundamentalists to undermine Syria and Iran. In 2010 Secretary of State Clinton pressed Syrian President Bashar al Assad to comply with Israeli and US calls to stop supporting the Lebanese resistance and break relations with Iran. Was Clinton especially hostile to the Syrian President because he did not comply with her requests/demands and soon after forged an agreement with Iran? She makes no mention of this in her book but it is obviously relevant to the issue of Syria-USA relations.

Regarding the so-called peaceful protesters, in fact, there was a violent element from the start. In Deraa in March 2011 several police were killed. In the original “capital of the revolution”, Homs, a very credible eye-witness reported armed demonstrators initiating the violence.


The solution is not impossible. What is wicked is the devastation of Syria by some of the wealthiest and most powerful countries in the world. What is wicked is the justification of this on a “humanitarian” pretense. The solution simply requires countries such as the USA and allies to stop their illegal and destructive efforts to overthrow any government they don’t like. It’s up to the people of Syria to determine their government. It’s time for the United Nations and genuine humanitarian organizations to demand the end of this war so that Syrians can start reconciliation and rebuilding.


Full article: http://dissidentvoice.org/2015/09/the-wicked-war-on-syria/

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Response to polly7 (Reply #100)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 10:30 PM

102. you didn't answer. Is Assad, like Gaddafi was, a good guy in your book

 

because he is opposed by "the West" and because he is buddies with Russia?

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Response to uhnope (Reply #102)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 10:35 PM

103. I never said Gaddafi was a 'good guy'. Stop lying.

I said he was a leader, hate him / like him... or not, who used his country's own resources to support the people of Libya and help all of Africa.

Syria was on the '7 countries in 5 years' list - did you forget about that? Awful selective memory if you have, eh?

Here is exactly what I wrote of Gaddafi. Read it and weep.

Exposed: The "Humanitarian" War In Libya

Check this out - 'The Humanitarian War' = http://www.laguerrehumanitaire.fr/english It's horrifying.

A bunch of LIES submitted to the ICC ..... by the UN - who got their 'numbers and crimes' from the NTC Prime Minister - 'word to ear'. Pages and pages redacted.

No Evidence? No Problem!!

How the CIA Used "Libyan Expatriates" To Engineer Consent For Regime Change

One of the main sources for the claim that Qaddafi was killing his own people is the Libyan League for Human Rights (LLHR), an organization linked to the International Federation of Human Rights (FIDH). On Feb. 21, 2011, LLHR General Secretary Dr. Sliman Bouchuiguir initiated a petition in collaboration with the organization U.N. Watch and the National Endowment for Democracy. This petition was signed by more than 70 NGOs.

Then a few days later, on Feb. 25, Dr. Bouchuiguir went to the U.N. Human Rights Council in order to expose the allegations concerning the crimes of Qaddafi’s government. In July 2011 we went to Geneva to interview Dr. Sliman Bouchuiguir.

"How to circumvent international law and justice 101." - originally published by http://laguerrehumanitaire.fr

A film by Julien Teil

Official Website:
http://laguerrehumanitaire.fr
Official web:
http://thehumanitarianwar.com
Official TV:
http://laguerrehumanitaire-film.rutube.ru/

Videos now here (I watched them on the original site when all of it was happening and posted these here at DU) http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article29428.htm

Must watch videos, the western trained NTC 'Prime Minister' - 'word to ear!' was the source of the 'data (all unofficial and lies, of course) that led to the UN resolution.


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What you don't know about the Libyan crisis:

...

*************************************************************************************************

The horror of Libya - to fulfill the PNAC objective of overthrowing yet another country. "7 countries in 5 years!" This was NO "Humanitarian Intervention", and certainly not for all those migrants Qaddafi had allowed in over decades, Qaddafi loyalists and others who were raped, tortured, mutilated, hung, burned to death .... all known of by the NATO 'humanitarian team'.

It was a bullshit, self-serving, western funded and backed coup against yet another sovereign nation not yet indebted to the IMF and controlling its own resources, not to mention not allowing U.S. bases 'Africom' into all of Africa.

Some of these links don't work anymore, but read and discover just what a sham this was and why.


The Untold Story in Libya

Posted by polly7 in General Discussion
Tue Oct 18th 2011, 10:06 AM

In May 2010, Libya was voted on to the UN Human Rights Council by a huge majority. The UN Watch's campaign to remove Libya from the Human Rights Council began immediately.

In March, 2011, a report, containing positive quotes from UN diplomatic delegations in many countries, was due to be presented by the UN Human Rights Council, leading to a Resolution commending Libya's progress in a wide aspect of human rights (listed in the article). March 19, 2011, the attack on Libya began.

Libya was one of only five countries without a Rothschild model central bank, Quaddafi openly discussed, in 2009, the nationalization of US, UK, Germany, Spain, Norway, Canada and Italy's oil companies, switching to the gold dinar - a single African currency that would serve as an alternative to the U.S. dollar and allow African nations to share the wealth. Libya has an abundance of water - Gaddafi’s Great Man-Made River Project project offers limitless amounts of water for Libyans and would allow them to be totally self-sufficient. In the near-future, water will be the next resource equated with money and power, other countries may be dependent on its reserves. A self-sufficient, dictator-ruled nation with control over some of the world’s most precious resource waves a big red warning flag.

In 2010 Gaddafi made a motion to the UN General Assembly to investigate the circumstances of the invasion of Iraq. He was also wasting the west's ....... 'libya's' oil on free education, housing, tolerance of immigrants, raising the standard of living in Africa, lowering infant mortality while raising life expectancy.

Many of these things are completely similar to what we learned of Iraq.


*************************************************************************************************

Yes, simply put, Nato's member nations are trying to steer back Libya Central Bank into the mainstream financial structure, under the watching eyes of the World Bank and the International Monetary Funds, to provide (reconstruction) funds to Libya with hefty interests payments - and transform a country which was free of debts into a heavily indebted country - as done everywhere else in sub-Saharan African countries.

http://businessafrica.net/africabiz/graphs...
http://businessafrica.net/africabiz/arcvol...

*************************************************************************************************

From a 'no fly zone to all out bombing of targets called out by rebels'. NATO's high-precision bombing preceeded 'rebel' incursions.

http://antemedius.com/content/libya-r2p-no...

"It's now common knowledge that British SAS, French intelligence, US Central Intelligence Agency assets, Qatar special forces and mercenaries of all stripes were parachuted as boots on the ground for months, planning and training the "rebels" and in close coordination with that philanthropic prodigy, NATO.

That was never the UN mandate - but who cares? NATO/GCC paid the bills, NATO conducted the bombing and NATO/GCC will "stabilize" the mess, according to a 70-page plan leaked by the British to Rupert Murdoch'sz Times of London."

"Expect local - and global - fireworks as far as grabbing the loot is concerned. Without even considering the (still unexplored) oil and gas wealth, Libya's foreign assets are worth at least $150 billion. Libya's central bank, now about to be privatized, has no less than 143.8 tons of gold. Then there's at least a millennium supply of fresh water, which had started to be harnessed by Gaddafi via the spectacular, multibillion dollar Great Man-Made River (GMR) project."

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"Oil-rich but with a relatively small population of 6.6. million, Gadhafi's Libya welcomed hundreds of thousands of black Africans looking for work in recent decades. "

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/01/l...

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NATO’s War on Libya is an Attack on African Development–Dan Glazebrook

6 09 2011

http://globalciviliansforpeace.com/tag/afr... /

To prevent this ‘threat of African development’, the Europeans and the USA have responded in the only way they know how – militarily. Four years ago, the US set up a new “command and control centre” for the military subjugation of the Africa, called AFRICOM. The problem for the US was that no African country wanted to host them; indeed, until very recently, Africa was unique in being the only continent in the world without a US military base. And this fact is in no small part, thanks to the efforts of the Libyan government.
Before Gaddafi’s revolution deposed the British-backed King Idris in 1969, Libya had hosted one of the world’s biggest US airbases, the Wheelus Air Base; but within a year of the revolution, it had been closed down and all foreign military personnel expelled.
More recently, Gaddafi had been actively working to scupper AFRICOM. African governments that were offered money by the US to host a base were typically offered double by Gaddafi to refuse it, and in 2008 this ad-hoc opposition crystallised into a formal rejection of AFRICOM by the African Union.

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The force used by the occupier to displace the old regime always makes sure the new regime is supine and complaint. The National Transitional Council, made up of former Gadhafi loyalists, Islamists and tribal leaders, many of whom detest each other, will be the West’s vehicle for the reconfiguration of Libya. Libya will return to being the colony it was before Gadhafi and the other young officers in 1969 ousted King Idris, who among other concessions had let Standard Oil write Libya’s petroleum laws. Gadhafi’s defiance of Western commercial interests, which saw the nationalization of foreign banks and foreign companies, along with the oil industry, as well as the closure of U.S. and British air bases, will be reversed. The despotic and collapsed or collapsing regimes in Tunisia, Libya, Egypt and Syria once found their revolutionary legitimacy in the pan-Arabism of Egypt’s Gamal Abdel Nasser. But these regimes fell victim to their own corruption, decay and brutality. None were worth defending. Their disintegration, however, heralds a return of the corporate and imperial power that spawned figures like Nasser and will spawn his radical 21st century counterparts.

Libya: Here We Go Again

Monday 5 September 2011
by: Chris Hedges, Truthdig | Op-Ed

http://www.truthout.com/libya-here-we-go-a...

*************************************************************************************************

LIBYA: Rebels execute black immigrants while forces kidnap others

http://somalilandpress.com/libya-rebels-ex...

"Many Africans have virtually nothing after years in Libya, many have been looted, robbed, while others saw their living quarters and apartments go in flames. Now they are praying to God to send them home.
While the international leaders are busy drafting resolutions to dismantle Muammar Gaddafi, the African Union has not yet commented on the situation in Libya.

Meanwhile, the International Criminal Court is said to have started a formal inquiry into possible crimes against humanity in Libya that will investigate the Libyan regime."

*************************************************************************************************

JohnPilger.com
8 September 2011

http://johnpilger.com/articles/hail-to-the...

..."I quote that not so much for its Orwellian quality but as a model of journalism's role in justifying "our" bloodbaths in advance.
This is Rupert's Revolution, after all. Gone from the Murdoch press are pejorative "insurgents". The action in Libya, says The Times, is "a revolution... as revolutions used to be". That it is a coup by a gang of Muammar Gaddafi's ex cronies and spooks in collusion with Nato is hardly news.

The self-appointed "rebel leader", Mustafa Abdul Jalil, was Gaddafi's feared justice minister. The CIA runs or bankrolls most of the rest, including America's old friends, the Mujadeen Islamists who spawned al-Qaeda.
They told journalists what they needed to know: that Gaddafi was about to commit "genocide", of which there was no evidence, unlike the abundant evidence of "rebel" massacres of black African workers falsely accused of being mercenaries. European bankers' secret transfer of the Central Bank of Libya from Tripoli to "rebel" Benghazi by European bankers in order to control the country's oil billions was an epic heist of little .

*************************************************************************************************

Sirte a 'living hell,' says aid group

http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/news/co...

Tuesday 04 October 2011 by Our Foreign Desk Printable Email

A Red Cross team finally entered the besieged Libyan town of Sirte yesterday and delivered urgently needed surgical supplies to treat about 200 wounded people.

Nato has repeatedly targeted Sirte in its seven-month bombing campaign that enabled armed rebels to topple the government of Muammar Gadaffi and gain control of most of the oil-rich state.

*************************************************************************************************

Absolutely horrible to use rape as a propaganda weapon for war, while ignoring the reality of it for all those brutalized, raped and some, murdered by the NATO supported 'rebels' - just one example of their many atrocities.

********* http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2174087 **********

http://andrewgavinmarshall.com/2011/08/26/lies-war-and-empire-nato’s-“humanitarian-imperialism”-in-libya

In early March of 2011, news headlines in Western nations reported that Gaddafi would kill half a million people.

<1> On March 18, as the UN agreed to launch air strikes on Libya, it was reported that Gaddafi had begun an assault against the rebel-held town of Benghazi. The Daily Mail reported that Gaddafi had threatened to send in his African mercenaries to crush the rebellion.<2> Reports of Libyan government tanks sitting outside Benghazi poised for an invasion were propagated in the Western media.<3> In the lead-up to the United Nations imposing a no-fly zone, reports spread rapidly through the media of Libyan government jets bombing the rebels.<4> Even in February, the New York Times – the sacred temple for the ‘stenographers of power’ we call “journalists” – reported that Gaddafi was amassing “thousands of mercenaries” to defend Tripoli and crush the rebels.<5>

Italy’s Foreign Minister declared that over 1,000 people were killed in the fighting in February, citing the number as “credible.”<6> Even a top official with Human Rights Watch declared the rebels to be “peaceful protesters” who “are nice, sincere people who want a better future for Libya.”<7> The UN High Commissioner for Human Rights declared that “thousands” of people were likely killed by Gaddafi, “and called for international intervention to protect civilians.”<8> In April, reports spread near and far at lightning speed of Gaddafi’s forces using rape as a weapon of war, with the first sentence in a Daily Mail article declaring, “Children as young as eight are being raped in front of their families by Gaddafi’s forces in Libya,” with Gaddafi handing out Viagra to his troops in a planned and organized effort to promote rape.<9>

As it turned out, these claims – as posterity notes – turned out to be largely false and contrived. Doctors Without Borders and Amnesty International both investigated the claims of rape, and “have found no first-hand evidence in Libya that rapes are systematic and being used as part of war strategy,” and their investigations in Eastern Libya “have not turned up significant hard evidence supporting allegations of rapes by Qaddafi’s forces.” Yet, just as these reports came out, Hillary Clinton declared that the U.S. is “deeply concerned by reports of wide-scale rape” in Libya.<10> Even U.S. military and intelligence officials had to admit that, “there is no evidence that Libyan military forces are being given Viagra and engaging in systematic rape against women in rebel areas”; at the same time Susan Rice, U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations, “told a closed-door meeting of officials at the UN that the Libyan military is using rape as a weapon in the war with the rebels and some had been issued the anti-impotency drug. She reportedly offered no evidence to backup the claim.”<


Untrue, says US

US says Gadhafi troops issued Viagra, raping victims
Allegation suggests troops encouraged to turn to sexual violence, envoys say

By Louis Charbonneau
updated 4/28/2011 9:31:26 PM ET

UNITED NATIONS — The U.S. envoy to the United Nations told the Security Council Thursday that troops loyal to Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi were increasingly engaging in sexual violence and some had been issued the impotency drug Viagra, diplomats said.

Several U.N. diplomats who attended a closed-door Security Council meeting on Libya told Reuters that U.S. Ambassador Susan Rice raised the Viagra issue in the context of increasing reports of sexual violence by Gadhafi's troops.

"Rice raised that in the meeting but no one responded," a diplomat said on condition of anonymity. The allegation was first reported by a British newspaper.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42809612/ns/world_news-mideastn_africa#.TqXeG96ImU8


US intel: No evidence of Viagra as weapon in Libya

http://www.msnbc .msn.com/id/42824884/ns/world_news-mide...

UN Ambassador Rice reportedly had said drug was being used in systematic rapes
NBC News and news services updated 4/29/2011 1:52:00 PM ET

UNITED NATIONS — There is no evidence that Libyan military forces are being given Viagra and engaging in systematic rape against women in rebel areas, US military and intelligence officials told NBC News on Friday.

Diplomats said Thursday that US Ambassador Susan Rice told a closed-door meeting of officials at the UN that the Libyan military is using rape as a weapon in the war with the rebels and some had been issued the anti- impotency drug. She reportedly offered no evidence to backup the claim.

While rape has been a weapon of choice in many other African conflicts, the US officials say they've seen no such reports out of Libya.


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http://www.democraticunderground.com/discu...
bvar22:

The Untold Story in Libya:

How The West Cooked Up The People's Uprising


http://whowhatwhy.com/2011/08/31/now-that-... ... /

The Global Disaster Capitalists never let a good disaster go to waste.
In the case of Libya, they used their Enforcement Arm (NATO & The US Military) to CREATE a disaster where there was none.

” For all his dictatorial megalomania, Gaddafi is a committed pan-African - a fierce defender of African unity. Libya was not in debt to international bankers. It did not borrow cash from the International Monetary Fund for any "structural adjustment". It used oil money for social services - including the Great Man Made River project, and investment/aid to sub-Saharan countries. Its independent central bank was not manipulated by the Western financial system. All in all a very bad example for the developing world.”

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/M...

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Libya: Oil, Banks, Water, the United Nations, and America’s Holy Crusade by Felicity Arbuthnot

Posted on April 5, 2011 by dandelionsalad

.."The country was commended: “for the progress made in the achievement of the Millennium Development Goals, namely universal primary education (and) firm commitment (to) health care.” There was “praise” for “cooperation with international organizations in combating human trafficking and corruption ..” and for cooperation with “the International Organization for Migration.”

“Progress in enjoyment of economic and social rights, including in the areas of education, health care, poverty reduction and social welfare” with “measures taken to promote transparency”, were also cited. Malaysia: “Commended the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya for being party to a significant number of international and regional human rights instruments.” Promotion: “of the rights of persons with disabilities” and praise for “measures taken with regard to low income families”, were cited...

.."So how does the all tie together? Libya, in March being praised by the Majority of the UN., for human rights progress across the board, to being the latest, bombarded international pariah? A nation’s destruction enshrined in a UN., Resolution?
The answer lies in part with the Geneva based UN Watch.(vii) UN Watch is : “a non-governmental organization whose mandate is to monitor the performance of the United Nations.” With Consultative Status to the UN Economic and Social Council, with ties to the UN Department of Public Information, “UN Watch is affiliated with the American Jewish Committee.” (AJC.)"

http://dandelionsalad.wordpress.com/2011/0... /

Interesting ..... the involvement in HR Watch of persons whose core values include securing energy resources.

************************************************************************************************

Colonel Muammar Gaddafi died after being stabbed with a bayonet in the anus and not in a firefight as originally claimed by Libyan authorities, according to a report on the Libyan dictator's last hours.

Two Nato missiles forced the group to leave the cars and escape on foot, seeking shelter in a drainage ditch. A bodyguard hurled grenades at approaching militiamen but one grenade "hit the concrete wall and bounced back to fall between Muammar Gaddafi and Abu Bakr Younis", Younis junior said.

"The shrapnel hit my father and he fell down to the ground. Muammar Gaddafi was also injured by the grenade, on the left side of his head," he said.

New York-based Human Rights Watch said Gaddafi was already bleeding from head wounds caused by blast shrapnel as he tried to flee Sirte, his hometown.

The charity obtained unedited mobile footage that showed militia fighters abusing Gaddafi as they took him into custody in October 2011.

"As he was being led on to the main road, a militiaman stabbed him in his anus with what appears to have been a bayonet, causing another rapidly bleeding wound," the report said.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/gaddafi-killed-bayonet-stab-anus-libya-395224



The Grand Finale - sodomized with a bayonet, beaten, tortured and murdered in the street - "We came, we saw ....... he died, lol".



**************************************************************************************************

The campaign in Libya began with an innocent sounding UN Security Council Resolution calling for the protection of civilians. Both China and Russia abstained rather than voting to veto the resolution. Then they realized they had been tricked. In her book, Clinton describes how Russia “chafed as the NATO-led mission to protect civilians accelerated the fall of Qaddafi”. In reality the NATO led mission “to protect civilians” resulted in vastly more civilian deaths than had occurred before it began.

Horace Campbell and Maximilian Forte have written two solid accounts describing the reality versus myths of regime change in Libya. Clinton’s characterization of “accelerating” the fall of Qaddafi is a cynical understatement, like her self congratulatory comment that “we came, we saw, he died” after rebels killed Qaddafi on the street. Many of the refugees drowning in the Mediterannean Sea or reaching the shores of Italy today are a direct consequence of that operation. Yet who has been held to account?


Full article: http://dissidentvoice.org/2015/09/the-wicked-war-on-syria/

************************************************************************************************

Britain, Libya and the Mediterranean - The Creation of a Humanitarian Emergency

by Dan Glazebrook / May 1st, 2015

Last week’s drownings in the Mediterranean were the foreseeable, and indeed deliberate, a result of the anti-human policies of strategic violence by a dying neo-colonial empire. They were the consequence, firstly, of a series of wars of aggression that have made life intolerable across vast swathes of Africa and West Asia, and, secondly, of the fateful EU decision last November to end Italy’s search-and-rescue programme, Mare Nostrum. This much has been admitted by politicians and commentators from across the entire British political establishment, from Nigel Farage and the Daily Telegraph to David Cameron and Ed Miliband. Whilst these admissions have often been tempered with caveats, denials, distortions and half-truths, the hideous reality behind them is increasingly impossible to deny.

NATO’s war of aggression against Libya in 2011 turned the country over to racist death squads, with hundreds of sub-Saharan migrant workers and black Libyans beaten and burnt to death by the ‘revolutionaries’ and tens of thousands illegally detained and tortured by the militias. Tawergha, the only black African town on the Mediterranean, and formerly home to around 30,000 people, is now a ghost town after NATO’s shock troops – militias with names like the ‘Brigades for the purging of black skins’ – ‘ethnically cleansed’ the region. Last week’s butchering of 30 Ethiopian workers by ISIS is but the latest chapter in the anti-African pogroms that have characterised the Libyan insurgency from the very start. This is the reality of NATO’s ‘Libyan revolution’ (led by AbdulHakim BelHaj, now leader of ISIS in Libya) and it is precisely this from which black Africans in Libya are now fleeing. As Italian Prime Minister Matteo Renzi put it, “a person has to risk his life because he needs to escape from a situation where they are chopping off the heads of those near him”.

And this head-chopping has not been restricted to Libya’s borders. NATO’s war has boosted head-choppers across the entire region, from Tunisia and Algeria to Mali, Nigeria and Cameroon. Before 2011, Boko Haram barely existed. Today, thanks to NATO opening up Libya’s arsenals to them and their friends, they are killing hundreds every week, often burning them alive in churches and mosques. As one Nigerian told a reporter last week, “We prefer to die trying (to migrate) than stay back there and die….Stay at home and get shot dead or maybe burnt to death; I just prefer to die while trying or survive.”

Yet the Libyan war itself is only the latest in a long series of acts of aggression launched by the British state and its allies, all of which continue to have disastrous consequences across the entire Middle East and North Africa region. A look at the list of where the migrants come from makes this devastatingly clear. The majority of the world’s refugees come from one of three countries: Afghanistan, Somalia and Syria. What all have in common is that they have all been subject to vicious terror campaigns by Britain, the USA and their allies: whether directly, as in Afghanistan; through allied states, as with the US-backed Ethiopian invasion of Somalia in 2006 (which toppled the first stable government the country had had in decades); or through the provision of cash, weapons and diplomatic cover to sectarian death squads, as in the case of Syria. Yemen is the latest additional source of refugees, with the Saudi bombing campaign bringing new arrivals to almost 10,000 per week.


Full article: http://dissidentvoice.org/2015/05/britain-libya-and-the-mediterranean/

Behind Every Refugee Stands an Arms Trader

http://dissidentvoice.org/2015/04/behind-every-refugee-stands-an-arms-trader/

**************************************************************************************************

Trapped in Libya: the flotsam of the West’s wars

By Vijay Prashad
Source: al-Araby
May 14, 2015

Next week, the EU will launch work on its plan to tackle the Mediterranean migrant crisis. The EU foreign policy chief Federica Mogherini has asked the UN for help to dismantle the smuggling networks.

European ambassadors have drafted a UN resolution, under chapter VII (which allows use of force), to tackle the crisis. For them the military option is the brightest light. As Mogherini said, the EU wants the authority to “use all necessary means to seize and dispose of the [smugglers’] vessels.

“Thus far in 2015, over 60,000 people have tried to cross from Libya to Europe. Of them, close to two thousand have died – a death toll 20 times higher than in 2014,” it continues.


Since 2011, Libya has been ripped apart, its social fabric torn asunder and its state structure largely absent. Nato’s bombardment precipitously destroyed the state and handed over the country to warring militias.

The threat to the refugees is a direct outcome of UN Security Council Resolution 1973, ironically under the Responsibility to Protect (R2P) banner. A new UNSC resolution is not going to be about the protection of the refugees, but to use force to destroy their lifeline. R2P has been ground under by the West’s behavior in Libya.


Full article: https://zcomm.org/znetarticle/trapped-in-libya-the-flotsam-of-the-wests-wars/


On Monday, a New York Times story demonstrated more specifically why Clinton's interactions with Blumenthal may have been a bad idea. Blumenthal, the Times reports via solid sources, was advising the Secretary of State both before and after former Libyan autocrat Muammar Qaddafi's death while also advising a group of private individuals who hoped to make money by obtaining reconstruction-type contracts in a post-Qaddafi Libya.

Much of the Libya intelligence that Mr. Blumenthal passed on to Mrs. Clinton appears to have come from a group of business associates he was advising as they sought to win contracts from the Libyan transitional government. The venture, which was ultimately unsuccessful, involved other Clinton friends, a private military contractor and one former C.I.A. spy seeking to get in on the ground floor of the new Libyan economy ...

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2015/05/18/hillary_clinton_sidney_blumenthal_libya_unofficial_adviser_represented_business.html


Just as much a fucking sham as Iraq, with the exact same results. And on ........ to Syria.


Apply exactly the same 'logic' and reasoning to Syria. Anyone with functioning grey matter should actually be able to understand all this.

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Response to polly7 (Reply #103)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 10:41 PM

107. oh jeez. a huge dump that was. Okay to play your game....

 

Does Assad "use his country's own resources to support the people of Syria"? Come on, stop avoiding the question. Do you think he's a brutal dictator or not? Or do you think he's kind of okay, that the negative info on him is a "MSM" conspiracy, and "The West Cooked Up The People's Uprising" in Syria just like in Libya?

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Response to uhnope (Reply #107)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 10:46 PM

108. Didn't like that, too complicated?

Sorry about that. Just answering to your lie.

Here, DU'er KoKo posted a great article you might enjoy:


How the US Helped ISIS---Recently Declassified Document Reveals


A recently declassified document again shows the United States’ complicity in the rise of ISIS.

By David Mizner

June 02, 2015 "Information Clearing House" - "Jacobin" - In October 2014, Vice President Joe Biden publicly criticized US allies for backing ISIS. The previous month, General Dempsey had told the Senate Armed Services Committee that America’s “Arab allies” were funding the group.

US officials were trying to distance themselves from the ISIS-supporting actions of their allies without harshly condemning them. Biden suggested that their arming of ISIS was unintentional and quickly apologized to them. (Responding to Dempsey, Senator Lindsey Graham actually defended them: “They were trying to beat Assad. I believe they realize the folly of their ways.”)

This mild criticism of allies came amid the effort of American officials to sell the decision to start bombing ISIS. By this time, the group was already entrenched in eastern Syria and western Iraq. But there’s no evidence that in the months and years prior, the Obama administration had made any attempt to prevent its client states from helping ISIS become a regional power.

The United States itself continued to send arms into Syria despite the certainty that some would end up in the hands of ISIS. “We have good relations with our brothers in the FSA,” said ISIS leader Abu Atheer in 2013, referring to the US-backed Free Syrian Army. He said ISIS bought anti-aircraft missiles and anti-tank weapons from the FSA.

A recently declassified US military intelligence document is further evidence of US complicity. Formerly classified as “secret,” an August 2012 Defense Intelligence Agency report was among a batch of documents obtained by the conservative group Judicial Watch.

The mainstream press and Republican politicians have focused on other documents in the collection: those related to the 2012 attack on the US Consulate in Benghazi, Libya. Largely overlooked is this document, which contradicts the official narrative not just about the rise of ISIS but also the makeup of the opposition in Syria and its relationship with foreign backers.

“The August 5, 2012 DIA report confirms much of what Assad has been saying all along about his opponents both inside and outside Syria,” says “terrorism analyst” Max Abrams.

The report concerns a period in time when the escalating violence in Iraq had ceased to be a prominent topic in the US press and when its coverage of the war in Syria — mirroring the discussion in Washington — focused on the Assad government, not the forces aligned against it. This may be hard to imagine now that ISIS has become the US government’s favorite monster, but during these months President Obama and his team gave major speeches on Syria that didn’t even mention the group.

Even after ISIS took Fallujah in January 2014, discussion of the group in establishment outlets was scarce. It wasn’t until later in 2014 — after continued battlefield victories and heavily publicized beheadings of westerners — that Islamic State became Public Enemy Number 1.

More of a Long Read at........

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article42026.htm

http://www.democraticunderground.com/11339855



MONDAY, MARCH 2, 2015: Noam Chomsky: After Dangerous Proxy War, Keeping...
Noam Chomsky on How the Iraq War Birthed ISIS & Why U.S. Policy Undermines the Fight Against It


(VIDEO)

As Iraq launches a new military operation to retake the city of Tikrit from the self-proclaimed Islamic State, thousands of Iraqi forces and militia fighters have converged in the city Samarra to strike nearby ISIS strongholds. The United States is expected to provide air support as part of its continued bombing campaign. The offensive comes as the Iraqi military prepares for a major U.S.-backed operation to retake Mosul from ISIS in the coming weeks. ISIS "is one of the results of the United States hitting a very vulnerable society with a sledgehammer, which elicited sectarian conflicts that had not existed," says Noam Chomsky. "It is hard to see how Iraq can even be held together at this point. It has been devastated by U.S. sanctions, the war, the atrocities that followed from it. The current policy, whatever it is, is not very likely to even patch up or even put band-aids on a cancer."

TRANSCRIPT

This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.


NOAM CHOMSKY: Patrick Cockburn, who has done by far the best reporting on this, describes it as an Alice in Wonderland strategy. The U.S. wants to destroy ISIS, but it’s opposing every force that’s fighting ISIS. So, the main state that’s opposed to ISIS is Iran. They support the Iraqi government, the Shiite government. But Iran is, you know, on our enemies list. Probably the main ground forces fighting ISIS are the PKK and its allies, which are on the U.S. terrorist list. That’s both in Iraq and in Syria. Saudi Arabia, our major ally, along with Israel, is both traditionally, for a long time, the main funder of ISIS and similar groups—not necessarily the government; rich Saudis, other people in the emirates—not only the funder, but they’re the ideological source. Saudi Arabia is committed, is dominated by an extremist fundamentalist version of Islam: Wahhabi doctrine. And ISIS is an extremist offshoot of the Wahhabi doctrine. Saudi Arabia is a missionary state. It establishes schools, mosques, spreading its radical Islamic version. So, they’re our ally. Our enemies are those who are fighting ISIS. And it’s more complex.

ISIS is a monstrosity. There’s not much doubt about that. It didn’t come from nowhere. It’s one of the results of the U.S. hitting a very vulnerable society—Iraq—with a sledgehammer, which elicited sectarian conflicts that had not existed. They became very violent. The U.S. violence made it worse. We’re all familiar with the crimes. Out of this came lots of violent, murderous forces. ISIS is one. But the Shiite militias are not that different. They’re carrying out—they’re the kind of the—when they say the Iraqi army is attacking, it’s probably mostly the Shiite militias with the Iraqi army in the background. I mean, the way the Iraqi army collapsed is an astonishing military fact. This is an army of, I think, 350,000 people, heavily armed by the United States and trained by the United States for 10 years. A couple of thousand guerrillas showed up, and they all ran away. The generals ran away first. And the soldiers didn’t know to do. They ran away after them.


http://www.democracynow.org/2015/3/2/noam_chomsky_on_how_the_iraq


By Mnar Muhawesh @mnarmuh | September 9, 2015

Editor’s note: This article has been updated to reflect recent Wikileaks revelations of US State Department leaks that show plans to destabilize Syria and overthrow the Syrian government as early as 2006. The leaks reveal that these plans were given to the US directly from the Israeli government and would be formalized through instigating civil strife and sectarianism through partnership with nations like Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Qatar and even Egypt to break down the power structue in Syria to essentially to weaken Iran and Hezbolla. The leaks also reveal Israeli plans to use this crisis to expand it’s occupation of the Golan Heights for additional oil exploration and military expansion.

While there’s certainly a conversation taking place about refugees — who they are, where they’re going, who’s helping them, and who isn’t — what’s absent is a discussion on how to prevent these wars from starting in the first place. Media outlets and political talking heads have found many opportunities to point fingers in the blame game, but not one media organization has accurately broken down what’s driving the chaos: control over gas, oil and resources.

Indeed, it’s worth asking: How did demonstrations held by “hundreds” of protesters demanding economic change in Syria four years ago devolve into a deadly sectarian civil war, fanning the flames of extremism haunting the world today and creating the world’s second largest refugee crisis?


This “civil war” is not about religion

Foreign meddling in Syria began several years before the Syrian revolt erupted. Wikieaks released leaked US State Department cables from 2006 revealing US plans to overthrow the Syrian government through instigating civil strife, and receiving these very orders straight from Tel Aviv. The leaks reveal the United State’s partnership with nations like Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Qatar and even Egypt to use sectarianism to divide Syria through the Sunni and Shiite divide to destabilize the nation to weaken Iran and Hezbolla. Israel is also revealed to attempt to use this crisis to expand it’s occupation of the Golan Heights for additional oil exploration.

According to major media outlets like the BBC and the Associated Press, the demonstrations that supposedly swept Syria were comprised of only hundreds of people, but additional Wikileaks cables reveal CIA involvement on the ground in Syria to instigate these very demonstrations as early as March 2011.


But it’s important to note the timing: This coalition and meddling in Syria came about immediately on the heels of discussions of an Iran-Iraq-Syria gas pipeline that was to be built between 2014 and 2016 from Iran’s giant South Pars field through Iraq and Syria. With a possible extension to Lebanon, it would eventually reach Europe, the target export market.

Perhaps the most accurate description of the current crisis over gas, oil and pipelines that is raging in Syria has been described by Dmitry Minin, writing for the Strategic Cultural Foundation in May 2013: ..........



Note the purple line which traces the proposed Qatar-Turkey natural gas pipeline and note that all of the countries highlighted in red are part of a new coalition hastily put together after Turkey finally (in exchange for NATO’s acquiescence on Erdogan’s politically-motivated war with the PKK) agreed to allow the US to fly combat missions against ISIS targets from Incirlik. Now note which country along the purple line is not highlighted in red. That’s because Bashar al-Assad didn’t support the pipeline and now we’re seeing what happens when you’re a Mid-East strongman and you decide not to support something the US and Saudi Arabia want to get done. (Map: ZeroHedge.com)

Divide and conquer: A path to regime change: ( ........... read more.)


Refugee’s assist a fellow Refugee holding a boy as they are stuck between Macedonian riot police officers and refugees during a clash near the border train station of Idomeni, northern Greece, as they wait to be allowed by the Macedonian police to cross the border from Greece to Macedonia, Friday, Aug. 21, 2015. Macedonian special police forces have fired stun grenades to disperse thousands of refugees stuck on a no-man’s land with Greece, a day after Macedonia declared a state of emergency on its borders to deal with a massive influx of refugees heading north to Europe. (AP Photo/Darko Vojinovic)

http://www.mintpressnews.com/migrant-crisis-syria-war-fueled-by-competing-gas-pipelines/209294/


The Wicked War on Syria

by Rick Sterling / September 29th, 2015

This description is widespread but misleading. In his 2007 article Seymour Hersh exposed the U.S. promotion of Sunni fundamentalists to undermine Syria and Iran. In 2010 Secretary of State Clinton pressed Syrian President Bashar al Assad to comply with Israeli and US calls to stop supporting the Lebanese resistance and break relations with Iran. Was Clinton especially hostile to the Syrian President because he did not comply with her requests/demands and soon after forged an agreement with Iran? She makes no mention of this in her book but it is obviously relevant to the issue of Syria-USA relations.

Regarding the so-called peaceful protesters, in fact, there was a violent element from the start. In Deraa in March 2011 several police were killed. In the original “capital of the revolution”, Homs, a very credible eye-witness reported armed demonstrators initiating the violence.


The solution is not impossible. What is wicked is the devastation of Syria by some of the wealthiest and most powerful countries in the world. What is wicked is the justification of this on a “humanitarian” pretense. The solution simply requires countries such as the USA and allies to stop their illegal and destructive efforts to overthrow any government they don’t like. It’s up to the people of Syria to determine their government. It’s time for the United Nations and genuine humanitarian organizations to demand the end of this war so that Syrians can start reconciliation and rebuilding.


Full article: http://dissidentvoice.org/2015/09/the-wicked-war-on-syria/


And another little video for you:

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Response to polly7 (Reply #108)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 10:53 PM

111. so you won't answer. LOL. Omission is a LIE also, did you know that?

 

But I think we can read between the lines. You won't even admit that Assad is a brutal dictator. That's clinical.

Information Clearinghouse, John Pilger, LOL. Anybody can cut and paste factoids to support any viewpoint. Reminds me of Rush Limbaugh, or the Flat Earth Society.

You cut and paste thousands of words and think you can get away with being an apologist for murderous dictators. You can't.



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Response to uhnope (Reply #111)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 10:55 PM

112. I don't answer to your ugly lies and innuendo.

I apologized for a murderous dictator? You lie. Again and again and again and again.

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Response to polly7 (Reply #112)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 11:02 PM

113. you were an apologist for Gaddafi and now for Assad. And for the homophobic fascist Putin

 

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5472145

It's disgusting. Why can't you at least admit that these men have been brutal dictators? WTF? You could still oppose western intervention. Really, WTF?

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Response to uhnope (Reply #113)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 11:04 PM

115. You're disgusting. Period. nt.

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Response to polly7 (Reply #100)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 11:35 PM

118. Very graphic

 

Video shows peaceful protesters desecrating the bodies of innocent police men. Throwing them down from the top a police building where they were most likely executed in cold blood. These are the people the west are supporting

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Response to jamzrockz (Reply #118)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 11:37 PM

119. Thanks jamzrockz ...

That is horrific.

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #32)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 02:15 PM

37. It's stunning how people refuse to admit Bush started this. It would be too hard to

 

Blame it ALL on Hilary and the Dems then.
DU- where Bush was awesome and Obama sucks.
And they bust your chops for appearing on Fox!

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #37)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 02:23 PM

38. WHO refused to admit Bush started this???

Omg ........ the crap you guys need to dream up to justify slamming anyone that posts something you might not agree with.

Bush was intent on fulfilling the PNAC agenda that included regime change in Iraq - which provided that vacuum now occupied by barbarious murderers - supported and funded by 'allies'.

Maybe you should read up on stuff before you claim anyone is 'denying' something.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #37)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 02:24 PM

39. For some folks, when the truth doesn't suit their agenda, it's OK to just make stuff up.

 

The agenda here of the person I am arguing with, besides twisting my words to try to make me look bad, is that the US and "The West" are the quintessential evil and Russia is good to the point of being snow white.

As I have pointed out a number of times, this is Orwellian negative nationalism. The truth for such people is a fungible concept to be either outright replaced or twisted whatever way is necessary to have the US and West look bad.

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #39)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 02:26 PM

42. Yes ........... exactly.

So stop doing it.

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Response to polly7 (Reply #42)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 02:30 PM

47. I'm not the one who can't get right the group that started the Iraq war. You've changed it several

 

times.

Is it Bush? Is it "The West"? Is it Obama? Or is it ME? LOL.

You seem to alternately blame one or several of the above.

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #47)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 02:30 PM

48. ZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

Bush certainly did represent the west and his 'coalition of the willing/bribed'. I never mentioned Obama, or you - but you always seem to make yourself the center of everything, don't you?

Childish post. Seriously.

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #39)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 02:32 PM

49. Yep! The "west" instead of Bush is willfully deceptive.....

 

And leads to bullshit posts like Obama murdered a teenager. It's all anti-Dem propaganda.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #49)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 02:33 PM

50. Lmfao. nt.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #49)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 02:37 PM

52. Who mentioned any of that?

Where the fuck are you getting all this?

Is Bush not from the west?

Who mentioned Obama? He didn't start the invasion of Iraq - why are you linking him to it. Odd. Seems you might have some sort of agenda here.

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Response to polly7 (Reply #52)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 02:46 PM

56. You need to calm down. We've seen dozens of posts here laying this all at HRC and BO's feet with no

 

Mention of Bush at all. There are loads of people trying to rewrite history here as if BO= Bush, and it's fucking repulsive and ignorant.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #56)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 02:50 PM

57. And you need to stop making shit up that wasn't mentioned. It's dishonest

and weak.

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Response to polly7 (Reply #57)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 02:53 PM

58. Just agreeing with Steve that this "the West" stuff is bullshit....

 

You may or may not beaming the many here shoveling that "they're all the same" crap. I really don't care either way. just noting that it is crap.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #58)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 02:54 PM

59. Ok, Bush and PNAC represented the East.

That's some rotten manure you're trying to shovel.

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Response to polly7 (Reply #59)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 03:11 PM

60. It's nice you're willing to be specific when pressed, thanks!

 

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #60)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 03:13 PM

61. It's disappointing an adult would believe Bush represented the east,

but thanks. I guess.

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Response to polly7 (Reply #61)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 04:28 PM

65. Not sure why you heard that one- a delusion I guess.

 

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #65)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 04:44 PM

67. Are you hearing things? I'm not.

You were happy with me that I finally tried to placate your anger or whatever it is and said Bush didn't represent the west - like changing the words in a fairy tale for a small child, so I chose east.

Got a problem with that?

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Response to polly7 (Reply #67)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 05:41 PM

69. Happy? angry? You flatter yourself. And babble on about the east as if someone

 

Was actually talking about the east. We both know better than that, don't we?

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #69)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 05:47 PM

71. You're boring. nt.

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Response to polly7 (Reply #71)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 06:11 PM

77. You're usually mildly amusing. Not this time, but often!

 

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Response to polly7 (Reply #52)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 10:36 PM

104. Slowly I turned ... step by step ... inch by inch...

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Response to betsuni (Reply #104)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 10:37 PM

105. Good for you.

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #39)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 11:40 PM

120. Clean your mirror. nt.

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Response to polly7 (Reply #27)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 02:25 PM

41. Agree with you.

 

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Response to 840high (Reply #41)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 02:26 PM

43. Thank you. :) nt.

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Response to polly7 (Reply #43)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 05:51 PM

72. Yeah, that was a stupid game of semantic nit-picking.

 

By people who are so invested in Hillary Clinton that they think everything is about her.

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Response to Comrade Grumpy (Reply #72)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 05:57 PM

74. And getting stupider and stupider all the time.

Millions of lives ruined and more every day, and it's turned into this stupid little nit-picking, dishonest, boring crap. I honestly don't see how they think they're helping her. Seriously, if I had this kind of 'support', I'd be very, very worried.

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #22)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 06:12 PM

78. Much gallop today!

 

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #78)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 07:23 PM

82. And without a point. Reread that persons posts and see if you can detect an overall

 

...point to them in that thread. There is none.

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #82)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 10:38 PM

106. Awwies .............

I left the little mean girl stuff behind in high school, why didn't you?

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #82)

Thu Oct 1, 2015, 01:22 PM

125. The point is to derail towards some imaginary conversation they'd prefer to have.

 

Some of these are real head scratchers, but the contortions it takes to try and derail like that are sort of interesting.... Sort of.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #78)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 10:46 PM

109. Snooze. nt.

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Response to polly7 (Reply #19)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 09:00 PM

87. Russia is bombing the fuck out of opponents to the brutal dictator Assad

 

Assad has been dropping barrel bombs on them already but Putin decided that wasn't enough killing of dissidents. Putin has pretty much destroyed the opposition in Russia so he needs something to do--kill people in Syria to keep his puppet Assad in power, and keep his access to the port.

Remember that next time you think the USA is only country that has ever done something wrong

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Response to uhnope (Reply #87)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 09:20 PM

92. "Russia is bombing the fuck out of opponents to the brutal dictator Assad"

They just got started, give em a chance to kill some Jihadist, unless your rooting for them. Your overwhelming concern for radical sunni militants has me concerned.



The secular government of Assad, doesn't like religious terrorists, bummer.

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Response to Jesus Malverde (Reply #92)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 09:25 PM

95. Russia is bombing the moderates

 

which helps your hero Putin so you're glad, right?

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Response to uhnope (Reply #95)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 09:30 PM

96. Moderate terrorists

Now thats funny.



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Response to Jesus Malverde (Reply #96)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 09:40 PM

97. you think it's funny that moderate opponents are being slaughtered and you call them terrorists?

 

I'll give you a chance to take that back, because it's sick, really sick, even for a Putinista.

http://www.ksby.com/story/30150547/the-latest-uk-warns-russia-against-hitting-moderate-groups

A moderate Western-backed Syrian rebel group says one of its leading officers has been killed in the Russian airstrikes in Syria's central Homs province.

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Response to uhnope (Reply #97)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 09:51 PM

98. There are no moderates only zealots fighting Assad,

and you know that. The moderates are the ones fighting for the secular regime, or they fled to the refugee camps.

The "Free Syrian Army" was never free, syrian or much of an army. It takes a lot of chutzpah to claim otherwise.

3,000 FSA Fighters Defect to ISIS in the Qalamoun Mountains
http://www.almasdarnews.com/article/3000-fsa-fighters-defect-isis-qalamoun-mountains/

More moderates

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #1)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 07:35 PM

84. The Russians are next in line for a failed unconventional war.

 

It is their turn. We got enough problems in the hundreds of spots we have our military. Besides this is just to keep a Russian friendly dictator in power, nothing more.

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Response to Rex (Reply #84)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 08:06 PM

86. Yep, let 'em have it with our compliments

 

If I were President, I would end our involvement so fast now that the Russians are in that people would doubt their memory that we were ever there.

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Response to GummyBearz (Original post)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 10:47 AM

2. Russia is bombing anti-Assad forces but not ISL

They are there to prop up their client.

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Response to denbot (Reply #2)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 01:06 PM

11. ^^^

ISIS is also an enemy of Assad so hitting a few of them once in a while will allow Pootie to justify their continued presence there.

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Response to moondust (Reply #11)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 03:14 PM

62. ^^^

This

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Response to GummyBearz (Original post)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 10:49 AM

3. based on our actions and who is funding ISIS

I think Russia just ate our lunch.

The US MIC has wanted to overthrow Assad for over 14 years. Assad is on the infamous list of "7 countries in five years" that General Wes Clark exposed on NPR.

ISIS is Saudi Arabia, Qatar and, by alliance, Turkey -- and all of them wanted Assad overthrown. So in selling the overthrow of Assad to the American public and others who ignore details, ISIS was going to be the reason we invaded Syria. They were likely going to say something like 'well bombing isn't enough and training moderate rebels didn't work out so boots on the ground....' That is all out the window now.

We weren't fighting ISIS because the real goal is/was to overthrow Assad and let the Saudis install a Sunni extremist government, a Sunni version of Iran.

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Response to GreatGazoo (Reply #3)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 01:08 PM

12. ...!

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Response to GreatGazoo (Reply #3)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 09:19 PM

91. So we underestimated Assad or

overestimated our own leadership in this endeavor it would seem.

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Response to Puzzledtraveller (Reply #91)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 09:52 PM

99. see post #8 for a more complete picture of ISIS

The goals of ISIS have overlap with the goals of the US MIC -- over throw Assad, fight Iran / Hezbollah in the region.

I have to think that since they have wanted to oust Assad for 14 years now that they wouldn't mind if ISIS did it. But Russia WOULD mind and has now moved to block the overthrow.

I expect the US will put more pressure on Iraq to stop Iran and Russia from using its airspace to resupply in Syria and the focus on ISIS will take at least a temporary backseat to a new focus on Russian aggression and over-step. I also expect McCain to make more noise and try to blame Obama for this failure of an ISIS/Saudi Frenemy policy that seems to have originated with McCain, the GOP and the House of Saud.

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Response to GummyBearz (Original post)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 11:19 AM

4. Hands were tied.

The west couldn't intervene more other than air strikes while negotiating with Iran on a nuclear deal. A deal both Israel and Saudi Arabia wanted dead...so the west could get more involved in toppling Assad.

Even then, those Air Strikes were limited to hitting ISIS primarily. Which is is the Saudi's proxy against Iranian supported Assad.

So you have, Western airstrikes hitting ISIS that is supported by the Saudi's which are troops fighting against Assad and Iranian volunteers. And the west needs Iranian cooperation on the Nuke deal.....its a real fucked up mess.

The West "tried" to get the ball rolling on developing forces that were pro-west. But being an area that has a history of being subjugated by western powers, there wasn't much appetite for that. Plus the Saudi's would have preferred something more loyal to them.

Russia gave the West its time to figure something out and nothing has worked. So, Putin said enough is enough. Assad stays for the time being.

On the plus side, you now have a large population of radicals all contained in one nation as opposed to mingling with the populace all over the world.

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Response to Xolodno (Reply #4)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 12:40 PM

7. Or, with luck, those radicals will go back to KSA

where they came from.

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Response to GummyBearz (Original post)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 12:22 PM

5. We did a lot more than just train the rebels - we flew bombing missions just like Russia and

organized others to do so. Note that Russia is also not putting in ground troops. One "advantage" they have is that the ground troops they can coordinate with are the Syrian army - barrel bombs and all.

I think the US was correct that it could not be US (or European) troops on the ground - as even a win could not be sustained without staying there forever. However, no matter who in the Obama administration spoke - there was always concern about vetting the rebels and the reality that many were connected to groups that were not really on our side. ( I have heard HRC's comments that had they trained the rebels in 2011/2012 when she and Petraeus wanted to it would have been different than now. She does have an advantage here in that as one path not taken, the end result can't be known. However, it does seem that a fair proportion of the rebels joined ISIS or Al Nusra.)

However, if you wanted to select just one event that triggered this descent into chaos, it was not the US. It was Assad ordering a violent attack on unarmed protesters. That and the subsequent atrocities he committed have made stepping backward impossible or at least quite difficult.

I suspect that given the public comments, there is some hope for a political resolution - that likely leaves Assad in until defined elections that he will be barred from. There will be some limited face saving concessions on all sides with no one happy. (Obama/Kerry will be attacked more on this than Iran if it happens with both the Republicans and HRC arguing that there could have been a better solution with Assad going off to face war crimes. In reality, it might be that - at least for the short term - the need to end the chaos and killing will have to take precedence over calls that justice requires that he face ICC charges. Consider that, the leader of Sudan, who also committed war crimes. The US manoevered around him to achieve some diplomatic goals - which led to the creation of South Sudan. Had South Sudan worked out better, it would make a great case that this was the right thing to do.

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Response to karynnj (Reply #5)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 01:13 PM

14. ...!

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Response to karynnj (Reply #5)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 01:43 PM

21. Russia has had troops in Syria since 1971 and they just added to them

http://www.popularmechanics.com/military/news/a17452/whats-so-worrying-about-russian-warplanes-and-tanks-in-syria/

Many believe that the start of the civil war was not merely "Assad ordering a violent attack on unarmed protesters" but rather Saudi-backed Islamists, snipers and weapons:

Syrians know there were abuses against demonstrators in early 2011; they also know that the President dismissed the Governor of Dara for this. They know that the armed insurrection was not a consequence of the protests but rather a sectarian insurrection that took cover under those rallies. Saudi official Anwar el-Eshki admitted to the BBC that his country had provided weapons to Islamists in Dara, and their rooftop sniping closely resembled the Muslim Brotherhood’s failed insurrection in Hama, back in 1982. Hafez al Assad crushed that revolt in a few weeks. Of the incident US intelligence said total casualties were probably ‘about 2,000’ including ‘300 to 400’ members of the Muslim Brotherhood’s elite militia. The Brotherhood and many western sources have since inflated those numbers, calling it a ‘massacre’. Armed Islamists posing as civilian victims have a long history in Syria.


http://www.globalresearch.ca/why-syrians-support-bashar-al-assad/5405208

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Response to karynnj (Reply #5)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 04:09 PM

64. Even before the first shot was fired in Daraa on 3/18/11, the opposition was armed

The first lethal confrontations that sparked the Syrian civil war were a series of armed clashes, in which eleven died. What is usually ignored is that of that number, seven Syrian policemen were killed. The first round of violence was hardly the massacre of peaceful democracy demonstrators that is usually portrayed.

The Wiki timeline shows the first fatalities of the Syrian civil war occurred on March 18, 2011 in Daraa, on the southern border with Jordan, which had long been a center of anti-regime activity.

Here are the events,, starting on March 11 that are missing from the official Wiki page:


http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/11/us-syria-iraq-idUSTRE72A3MI20110311
World | Fri Mar 11, 2011 9:37am EST
Related: World
Syria says seizes weapons smuggled from Iraq
DAMASCUS

Syria said Friday security forces seized a large shipment of weapons and explosives and night-vision goggles this week in a truck coming from Iraq.

The official news agency SANA said the shipment, intercepted at the Tanaf border crossing Monday, was intended "for use in actions that affect Syria's internal security and spread unrest and chaos." (Tanaf is the southernmost border crossing with Iraq)

It did not say how many weapons were seized. But published pictures showing dozens of grenades and pistols as well as rifles and ammunition belts.

The agency quoted the driver of the truck as saying the weapons had been loaded in Baghdad, and that he had been told he would be paid $5,000 to deliver them in Syria.


The first news report that the demonstrators were armed in the first fatal clashes with police on March 18, and that seven police were killed on March 20 was in Israel National News:

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/143026#.Vgw7925WKPE
Syria: Seven Police Killed, Buildings Torched in Protests
Continued protests in Syria claim lives of seven police and four protesters, and result in burning a courthouse and Baath Party HQ in Daraa.


By Gabe Kahn.
First Publish: 3/21/2011, 11:05 AM / Last Update: 3/21/2011, 11:17 AM

Seven police officers and at least four demonstrators in Syria have been killed in continuing violent clashes that erupted in the southern town of Daraa last Thursday.

The clashes came amidst growing political tension in the Muslim nation, whose Presidents and many senior officials have always come from Syria's influential Shia Alawite minority, when twenty students were arrested for spray-painting anti-government graffiti on a wall.

On Friday police opened fire on armed protesters killing four and injuring as many as 100 others. According to one witness, who spoke to the press on condition of anonymity, "They used live ammunition immediately -- no tear gas or anything else."

At the funerals of two of those killed opposition leaders handed authorities a list of demands, which included the release of political prisoners. In an uncharacteristic gesture intended to ease tensions the government offered to release the detained students, but seven police officers were killed, and the Baath Party Headquarters and courthouse were torched, in renewed violence on Sunday.

The latest clashes occurred after unconfirmed reports that two more protesters had been killed began to circulate. According to witnesses, Syrian security forces have encircled Daraa to impede more protesters from reaching the city. Anti-government protests are rare in Syria and have traditionally been brutally put down, but Daraa is not the only town where protests have occurred.



The "official Wiki does not reveal the essential facts that the Dara'a protests were shootouts by armed groups of rampaging demonstrators and police:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_uprising_phase_of_the_Syrian_Civil_War
Minor protests calling for government reforms began in January, and continued into March. On 3 February, a "Day of Rage" was called for by activists in Syria via the websites Facebook and Twitter, to be held on Friday, 4 February.[19] This did not result in protests in Syria.
Civil uprising (January–July 2011)
March 2011 unrest
Main article: Timeline of the Syrian civil war (January–April 2011)
Demonstration in Homs against Assad.

The unrest began on 15 March in Damascus and Aleppo, yet in the southern city of Daraa, sometimes called the "Cradle of the Revolution",[20] protests had been triggered on 6 March by the incarceration and torture of 15 young students, who were arrested for writing anti-government graffiti in the city,[21][22] "The people want the fall of the regime".[23] Demonstrators clashed with local police, and confrontations escalated on 18 March after Friday prayers. With thousands protesting, the clashes resulted in several civilian deaths. On 20 March, a mob burned down the Ba'ath Party headquarters and other public buildings. Security forces quickly responded, firing live ammunition at crowds, and attacking the focal points of the demonstrations. The two-day assault resulted in the deaths of fifteen protesters.[24]

Meanwhile, minor protests occurred elsewhere in the country. Protesters demanded the release of political prisoners, the abolition of Syria's 48-year emergency law, more freedoms, and an end to pervasive government corruption.[25] The events led to a "Friday of Dignity" on 18 March, when large-scale protests broke out in several cities, including Banias, Damascus, al-Hasakah, Daraa, Deir az-Zor, and Hama. Police responded to the protests with tear gas, water cannons, and beatings. At least 6 people were killed and many others injured.[26]

On 25 March, mass protests spread nationwide, as demonstrators emerged after Friday prayers.[24] Over 100,000 people reportedly marched in Daraa,[27] but at least 20 protesters were reportedly killed. Protests also spread to other Syrian cities, including Homs, Hama, Baniyas, Jasim, Aleppo, Damascus and Latakia. Over 70 protesters in total were reported dead.[28]
Demonstration in Douma, a Damascus suburb, against the Assad government on 8 April 2011
Crackdown
Main article: Syrian reactions to the Syrian civil war
Riot police in Damascus

Even before the uprising began, the Syrian government conducted numerous arrests of protesters, political activists and human rights campaigners, many of whom were labeled "terrorists" by the Assad government. In early February, authorities arrested several activists, including political leaders Ghassan al-Najar,[29] Abbas Abbas,[30] and Adnan Mustafa.[31]

The police often responded to the protests violently, not only using water cannons and tear gas, but also beating protesters and firing live ammunition.[32]

As the uprising began, the Syrian government waged a campaign of arrests that captured tens of thousands of people, according to lawyers and activists in Syria and human rights groups. In response to the uprising, Syrian law had been changed to allow the police and any of the nation's 18 security forces to detain a suspect for eight days without a warrant. Arrests focused on two groups: political activists, and men and boys from the towns that the Syrian Army would start to besiege in April.[33] Many of those detained experienced ill-treatment. Many detainees were cramped in tight rooms and were given limited resources, and some were beaten, electrically jolted, or debilitated. At least 27 torture centers run by Syrian intelligence agencies were revealed by Human Rights Watch on 3 July 2012.[34]

President Assad has characterized the opposition as armed terrorist groups with Islamist "takfiri" extremist motives, portraying himself as the last guarantee for a secular form of government.[35] Early in the month of April, a large deployment of security forces prevented tent encampments in Latakia. Blockades were set up in several cities to prevent the movement of protests. Despite the crackdown, widespread protests continued throughout the month in Daraa, Baniyas, Al-Qamishli, Homs, Douma and Harasta.[36]
Concessions
Main article: Timeline of the Syrian civil war (January–April 2011)
Opposition demonstration in Baniyas

During March and April, the Syrian government, hoping to alleviate the unrest, offered political reforms and policy changes. Authorities shortened mandatory army conscription,[37] and in an apparent attempt to reduce corruption, fired the governor of Daraa.[38] The government announced it would release political prisoners, cut taxes, raise the salaries of public sector workers, provide more press freedoms, and increase job opportunities.[39] Many of these announced reforms were never implemented.[40]

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Response to leveymg (Reply #64)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 11:03 PM

114. Thank you for dissecting the convenient narrative of all this all began.

 

I do it sometimes, but it does get tiresome.

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Response to leveymg (Reply #64)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 11:11 PM

116. Thank you, leveymg. nt.

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Response to GummyBearz (Original post)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 12:26 PM

6. Putin isn't doing this to "fight ISIS"

the sooner people wake up to that fact, the better off we'll be...

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Response to Blue_Tires (Reply #6)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 01:29 PM

20. it may not be Putin's top reason but fighting ISIS is part of the mix

Putin gets a whole package in this -- embarrass the West, thwart the Saudis, buddy up with Iran, support Assad, draw and kill Chechen rebels to an area outside Russia, and keep and expand Russia's port on the Mediterranean.

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Response to GummyBearz (Original post)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 12:45 PM

8. The Uses of ISIS

By Justin Podur
Source: teleSUR English
September 27, 2015

In the West, ISIS videos are used to stoke nightmares and justify police powers, and are politically valuable to fear-mongering politicians. As the collapse of Syria proceeds under the weight of the war and millions of Syrians are on the move, Westerners are being led to believe that every refugee family might be a secret ISIS cell. Local countries are hit far harder by the refugee crisis: Western countries are only taking a small fraction of the refugees.

Despite the horrors of their videos, and the airstrikes that have been organized against ISIS, the West, and its allies, have found several uses for ISIS.

ISIS provides Western allies Saudi Arabia and Qatar a way to advance their influence in the region against Iran. ISIS provides an outlet for the people that Saudi clerics have fired up to hate everyone but their sect, people who might otherwise stay in their own Gulf countries and take up arms.

ISIS provides the troops for Western ally, Turkey, to fight the Kurds, who created an autonomous zone in Iraq, have recently done so in Syria and have long been trying to advance their agenda of self-determination in Turkey.

For Western ally, Israel, ISIS bleeds Hizbollah and has helped destroy Syria, creates massive numbers of refugees, and so diverts and destroys military forces that might otherwise be facing off with Israel.


What could be more important than an end to the war and the defeat of ISIS? For the West, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, and Israel, many things: weakening Iran and Hizbollah, showing toughness to Russia, the chance of overthrowing Assad, destroying the basis for Kurdish independence. To those steering the Syrian war, these are higher priorities than the plight of millions of refugees and the destruction of several countries.


Full article: https://zcomm.org/znetarticle/the-uses-of-isis/

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Response to polly7 (Reply #8)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 01:15 PM

15. ...!

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Response to KoKo (Reply #15)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 02:25 PM

40. Thank you KoKo! nt.

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Response to polly7 (Reply #8)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 02:36 PM

51. Seems about right.

It's amazing the propaganda coming from the administration and MSM now.

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Response to ozone_man (Reply #51)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 02:39 PM

53. Thank you ozone_man. :) nt.

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Response to polly7 (Reply #8)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 07:47 PM

85. +1

war is like a crime scene. we should be looking at motives and opportunity to figure out who dunnit, or in this case 'whodoin'it'.

Plus the source of funding for ISIS was confirmed over a year ago:

http://www.oneindia.com/feature/why-does-saudi-arabia-fund-the-isis-1791158.html

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Response to GreatGazoo (Reply #85)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 10:27 PM

101. Thanks for the article GreatGazoo! nt.

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Response to GummyBearz (Original post)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 01:06 PM

10. this is not america's affair... best to take this opportunity to stay far away...

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Response to GummyBearz (Original post)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 01:45 PM

23. if Russia wants to run the Afghanistan/Vietnam/Iraq playbook in hopes

 

of getting it right this time, we should congratulate them on their determination and do everything we can to avoid doing likewise

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #23)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 01:53 PM

24. Exactly what I was saying upthread. Have at it Vladimir Vladimirovich.

 

Твоё здоровье!

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #24)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 01:55 PM

25. please proceed, president for life nt

 

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #25)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 02:03 PM

28. Yes, take it with our blessing. What will be interesting going forward is...

 

... as the Russians get more and more involved, the Russian military has historically had very little concern for civilian casualties when it is ethnic Russians and related Slavs and even less when it is other kinds of foreigners. There are many Putinistas here and I am curious what will happen when evidence of potential war crimes comes out as it almost certainly will.

Will they demand justice or make some kind of excuse? I'm betting on the excuse.

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #28)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 02:05 PM

31. they've already excused Assad's abuses, they still insist he's innocent

 

of using chemical weapons

Their source is usually Robert Parry.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #31)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 02:29 PM

46. Yep. I really expect very little good or honesty from that crowd.

 

The furious attempt to explain away Assad's use of chemical weapons was a new low for sure.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #23)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 02:42 PM

55. Russia appears to be doing exactly the same thing we are in Syria.

 

Bombing Islamist radicals.

I don't see any sign that there is going to be a massive Russian military buildup--I mean with tens or hundreds of thousands of troops.

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Response to Comrade Grumpy (Reply #55)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 04:41 PM

66. Russia is there to shore up Assad. There's little sign they're going after ISIS as opposed

 

to other anti-Assad groups.

The US didn't have a giant buildup going when it first intervened in Viet Nam either.

But, mission creep sets in. The goal is to keep Assad in power at all costs.

How high will those costs get?

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #66)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 05:55 PM

73. I don't particularly care which jihadists they're bombing.

 

I don't think Russia's goal is to keep Assad in power at all costs.

I think they are looking to lay the groundwork for a negotiated settlement that keeps the Syrian state largely intact. I can see a transition once Assad's current term is up.

That's something we could have done three or four years ago, but instead we were all "Assad must go!" no matter the results. And now we have the results of that policy.

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Response to Comrade Grumpy (Reply #73)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 05:59 PM

75. Agree with you 100%. nt.

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Response to Comrade Grumpy (Reply #73)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 06:00 PM

76. Assad is their last remaining asset in the region.

 

Their only rational reason for being there is to shore him up.

Assad was unwilling to discuss a transition from power 3-4 years ago.

This is what dictators do--they stay in power.

And what global powers (and wannabe global powers) do is cultivate assets like Assad and keep them in power.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #76)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 10:51 PM

110. To be fair, it's difficult to have an open and democratic society

when you are made a target by the worlds greatest superpower, and surrounded on all sides by countries who are willing to bankroll psychopaths intent on ethnically cleansing the state and the overthrow of the government.

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Response to killbotfactory (Reply #110)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 11:14 PM

117. The Ba'ath regime in Syria has been around for decades

 

and has always been one of the most sadistic, evil, monstrous governments on the planet. Assad's goons are every bit as cruel and vicious as the worst ISIS has to offer.

It is high idiocy to try to explain/justify their crimes by pointing at the United States.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #117)

Thu Oct 1, 2015, 12:39 AM

122. This war has nothing to do with human rights.

If we gave a shit about human rights as a principle of foreign policy, we wouldn't be allies with Saudi Arabia. Our government waged an illegal war in Iraq that has led to the death and displacement of millions. We even exported our foriegn prisoners to Syria and Libya for those regimes to torture some folks. The ones we didn't want to subject to "non-torture".

The reason these states are brutal in the first place is because they are sitting on a tinder box. They are resource rich, home to many different ethnic factions, and are targets for the US and our allies in the region because they are not pro-west.

All sides are bad in this, but it's a choice between one side which has maintained a secular and mostly peaceful and stable society where different ethnic groups lived in relative peace (before this fucking war) vs. a side that throws old gay men off of buildings, proudly massacres minorities, and enslaves women.

Tough shit to the Saudi's who want to take over the country, or the Israeli's who want to make life hard on Hezbollah and Iran, or to the West who want to shut down Russia's port. None of those goals are worth more than the lives of the people caught up in this nightmare.

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Response to killbotfactory (Reply #122)

Thu Oct 1, 2015, 01:03 AM

123. Thank you. nt.

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Response to killbotfactory (Reply #122)

Thu Oct 1, 2015, 08:31 AM

124. I do not share your eagerness to make excuses

 

for bloodthirsty tyrants.

PS You must love the job Kim Jong Il is doing.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #124)

Thu Oct 1, 2015, 03:43 PM

127. I make no excuses for the actions of Bush or Cheney. nt

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Response to killbotfactory (Reply #127)

Thu Oct 1, 2015, 03:45 PM

128. No, you only make excuses for Assad and Putin. nt

 

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #128)

Thu Oct 1, 2015, 03:48 PM

129. I opposed the Iraq War, too. I guess that makes me a Saddam apologist.

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Response to killbotfactory (Reply #129)

Thu Oct 1, 2015, 03:59 PM

130. I opposed the Iraq war, and I don't lick the boots of Assad and Putin.

 

You are actively excusing and justifying atrocities committed by a military dictatorship.

That's not progressive or anti-war.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #130)

Thu Oct 1, 2015, 04:16 PM

131. The option here is secular dictatorship vs. radical Islamic caliphate.

stop pretending their is a good option in all of this. whatever the motives of the people who rose up in protest after the Arab spring have been washed away in a river of blood. everything about this mess is digusting.

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Response to killbotfactory (Reply #131)

Thu Oct 1, 2015, 04:17 PM

132. That's the current choice because that's how Assad engineered it.

 

He wants to keep ISIS alive, because he knows if ISIS is completely defeated, there'll be little reason for anyone to keep him where he is.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #132)

Thu Oct 1, 2015, 04:25 PM

133. most governments will try to maintain power when faced with violent revolution.

especially when they are bankrolled by geopolitical enemies.

that's how the world works.

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Response to killbotfactory (Reply #133)

Thu Oct 1, 2015, 04:29 PM

134. Assad used violence against peaceful protestors.

 

That preceded the civil war.

Had Assad not been a thuggish, evil psychopathic dictator, there never would have been this civil war.

He, not the United States, is the reason there is a civil war there.

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Response to GummyBearz (Original post)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 01:57 PM

26. Better Russia than us. I am very concerned about the innocents

in the middle

and to think this was given birth by our invasion of Iraq based on a lie

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Response to GummyBearz (Original post)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 02:07 PM

33. If Russia can handle it, so be it.

The U.S. needs to stop fucking around in the ME and FOCUS ON THE PEOPLE HERE FIRST!


I hope my point came across.

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Response to romanic (Reply #33)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 09:21 PM

93. I'm with you

however there is oddly as it is, a deep almost cold waresque hatred of Russia here so anything that may directly or inadvertently cause the Putin regime to look favorable is mostly derided.

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Response to GummyBearz (Original post)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 02:08 PM

35. At one point

Obama was trying to do more in Syria but Congress lined up pretty hard against him.

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Response to Proud Liberal Dem (Reply #35)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 07:09 PM

80. Not only Congress, but the American people as well. Some of us have "selective" memories, or....

they think the rest of us are fools. Liberals were calling for the POTUS not to take action unless Congress gave him approval.

World | Sat Aug 24, 2013 8:32pm EDT

As Syria war escalates, Americans cool to U.S. intervention: Reuters/Ipsos poll
WASHINGTON | By Lesley Wroughton


Americans strongly oppose U.S. intervention in Syria's civil war and believe Washington should stay out of the conflict even if reports that Syria's government used deadly chemicals to attack civilians are confirmed, a Reuters/Ipsos poll says.

About 60 percent of Americans surveyed said the United States should not intervene in Syria's civil war, while just 9 percent thought President Barack Obama should act.

More Americans would back intervention if it is established that chemical weapons have been used, but even that support has dipped in recent days - just as Syria's civil war has escalated and the images of hundreds of civilians allegedly killed by chemicals appeared on television screens and the Internet.

The Reuters/Ipsos poll, taken August 19-23, found that 25 percent of Americans would support U.S. intervention if Syrian President Bashar al-Assad's forces used chemicals to attack civilians, while 46 percent would oppose it. That represented a decline in backing for U.S. action since August 13, when Reuters/Ipsos tracking polls found that 30.2 percent of Americans supported intervention in Syria if chemicals had been used, while 41.6 percent did not.

Taken together, the polls suggest that so far, the growing crisis in Syria, and the emotionally wrenching pictures from an alleged chemical attack in a Damascus suburb this week, may actually be hardening many Americans' resolve not to get involved in another conflict in the Middle East.


http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/25/us-syria-crisis-usa-poll-idUSBRE97O00E20130825

People have seemingly changed their minds now, but this was the situation when the POTUS wanted to intervene. He even threw it over to Congress, who didn't have the votes to grant him the AUMF.

I think it's hysterical that the Putinstas who decried PBO taking any unilateral action, seem to be now applauding King Putin for the same action.

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Response to GummyBearz (Original post)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 02:09 PM

36. Let it be Pooty Pott's problem

If he wants to think Russia is in the big leagues again.

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Response to treestar (Reply #36)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 02:28 PM

44. They are.

 

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Response to GummyBearz (Original post)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 02:28 PM

45. Actually, it's the Russians who just sat on their hands for too long.

 

Syria had close ties to the Soviet Union, which viewed it an an antidote to U.S. ally Israel. Often, when Syrians went abroad to study, it was to the USSR, most often to Russia, as Moscow and then-Leningrad were centers of learning and culture then as now.

Of course, the last time the USSR/Russia got involved in the Middle East, in Afghanistan, it was a disaster that many credit with bringing about the fall of the USSR. Perhaps the delay can be attributed to "Afghanistan syndrome", like our "Vietnam syndrome".

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Response to GummyBearz (Original post)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 02:41 PM

54. you wrote

To me this looks like we just sat on our hands for too long. I do NOT want US ground troops in Syria, but we could have done a LOT more to combat ISIS than train a few dozen locals on how to shoot straight.

Do you know what Amb Stevens was doing? He was working with some Syrian rebels to train and arm them and he's dead. THe deadliest alliances are not always apparent.

PBO asked Congress for funding to deal with Syria and they refused.The president was not sitting on his hands as you allege.

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Response to underthematrix (Reply #54)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 03:41 PM

63. You got my quote correct then made a weird left turn into no man's land

 

I said "we sat on our hands too long". Not "Obama sat on his hands too long". The congress is the most representative form of the people... therefore "WE" sat on our hands too long.

Does congress bear some fault? Absolutely. Could Obama have ordered more airstrikes without them? Well, if he could order 100, why not 1,000? Anyway, I agree with most of what Stevenleser is saying. At least someone is taking out the trash, and if Assad stays in power, well that's better than letting ISIS run amok forever. Even if they aren't Russia's main target, they will get targeted to a degree.

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Response to GummyBearz (Original post)


Response to GummyBearz (Original post)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 05:47 PM

70. Russia won't hit ISIS directly

 

Getting rid of ISIS isn't their top concern. Russia is protecting Assad.

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Response to GummyBearz (Original post)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 06:17 PM

79. I have a couple of posts with my thoughts

Putin wanted a private talk with Obama. Enemies before, kind of friendly after.

Both have a problem with Assad, but we can't touch him...not nice to kill leaders of other countries. No good will come of it.

Russia has been taking care of Assad, backing him up, etc., and might just be getting sick and tired of Assad's killings, and being the cause of every country on the planet taking refugees to get away from Assad, and that makes Russia unpopular.

So Russia trusts Obama, and Obama doesn't really trust Putin, but he's a strong believer in diplomacy - his and Putins...

Putin decides to take down Assad (dead or alive). Pilots from both countries have a celebration, then take out ISIS, They call back the refugees who nobody wanted anyway, and they get first class plane tickets to return.

Everybody now loves Russia - S. Arabia and all the other places who hated Assad. I bet even his troops didn't like him.

Wait and see.



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Response to GummyBearz (Original post)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 07:23 PM

81. One despicable dictator covering the ass of another. Who coulda guessed?

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Response to GummyBearz (Original post)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 07:33 PM

83. It is strange watching a dictator clean up an unruly mess made by the Bush administration.

 

However since we are already in wars all over the planet, I guess we can give this one to Putin. We will find another war to keep the MIC fat and happy.

Besides, Putin is not there to beat ISIS...he is doing so to keep Assad in power imo. This is just more national building by superpowers...SSDD.

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Response to Rex (Reply #83)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 09:17 PM

90. Our current admin stoked the flames too.

None of that helped but I get what you are saying.

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Response to Puzzledtraveller (Reply #90)

Thu Oct 1, 2015, 12:13 AM

121. We need to figure out why the hell we are still in Afghanistan.

 

I mean, there is no trophy for sticking it out 'just because'. I am worried about the continuing unraveling going on all over the ME and Europe and Asia.

Mostly due to Bush policy whatever the fuck that was. The turd that can't be flushed.

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Response to GummyBearz (Original post)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 09:16 PM

89. Russia indeed has more of an interest in seeing Isis squashed.

We know why, but what did we do? Well, we created the monster.

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Response to Puzzledtraveller (Reply #89)

Wed Sep 30, 2015, 09:21 PM

94. The monster was created by our friends.



If you want somebody who will fight to death against Hezbolla...you go after zealots.


Why would our friends create a monster?

“The end of the Assad regime would sever Hezbollah’s lifeline to Iran, eliminate a long-standing threat to Israel, bolster Lebanon’s sovereignty and independence, and inflict a strategic defeat on the Iranian regime. It would be a geopolitical success of the first order. More than all of the compelling moral and humanitarian reasons, this is why Assad cannot be allowed to succeed and remain in power: We have a clear national security interest in his defeat. And that alone should incline us to tolerate a large degree of risk in order to see that this goal is achieved.

http://www.mccain.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/2012/3/post-e460be36-c488-e7de-8c38-64c3751adfce

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Response to GummyBearz (Original post)

Thu Oct 1, 2015, 02:20 PM

126. Since it turned out that whacking Saddam and Gaddhafi

led to every stripe of extremist feces floating to the surface why do we INSIST on toppling ANOTHER Middle Eastern asshole?

Westerners have the heart of a lion and the memory of a goldfish. We are so amped by idealism and wrapped up in perforating today's new, new Hitler that we appear to forget that actions have consequences. ISIS and it's ilk are a very real one that came from our meddling.

If folks have such seething hate for Assad then they're free to join their jihadist fellow travelers and do something about it.

They are not free, however, ask me to support the waste of even more blood and money to topple their bete noire.

Stay the fuck out of the Middle East. Stop giving arms and money to jihadists.

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