Vatican Observers: It’s Likely That The Pope Will Shitcan The Guy Who Sprung Kim Davis On Him

[RKP5637]

Excellent if this happens!

http://www.joemygod.com/2015/10/02/vatican-observers-its-likely-that-the-pope-will-shitcan-the-guy-who-sprung-kim-davis-on-him/

According to a report published today by the New York Times, Vatican observers expect US Papal Nuncio Carlo Vigano to be removed at the “first respectable opportunity” for his “grave misstep” in secretly orchestrating the Pope’s meeting with Kim Davis. They write:

But if Archbishop Viganò is held responsible for what is seen as a grave misstep on an important papal trip, he is likely to be removed at the first respectable opportunity, according to several church analysts. “Nobody in the Catholic Church wants another Regensburg,” said Massimo Faggioli, an associate professor of theology and director of the Institute for Catholicism and Citizenship at the University of St. Thomas in St. Paul, Minn.

[Human101948]

1. But...but...people here were assuring me that he approved the entire episode...

Who do I trust? I'm sooooooooo confused!

[RKP5637]

3. Stay tuned for the next episode in this comedy of errors and distortions!

[Baitball Blogger]

17. I wish our American leaders would be as swift to reach the

the obvious consequences of such an action. In America, someone at that level would be bulletproof because of a satchel of blackmail that he could use against his employer. Especially if we're talking politics.

[RKP5637]

18. And is sometimes/often? seen as a badge of honor! n/t

[NonMetro]

21. My Goodness! The Vatican Spin On This Would Make Any DC Pol Proud!

They sure are concerned about this "bad impression" made by the Pope's meeting with Kim Davis, aren't they? Oh, we get it: he didn't really mean to! It was an accident! He has gay friends! The janitor did it! The dog ate his meeting schedule! He's old: he doesn't know how to google Kim Davis on his I-Pad!

Of course, they aren't much concerned about the fact that the Pope trashed gay marriage in front of our congress and Supreme Court.

[RKP5637]

22. The dog ate my homework!

RCC has been trashing LGBT forever, now, were're supposed to believe, oh, they love LGBT. Yet another WTF in the world of WTF's.

[A Simple Game]

27. It seems this Pope is practicing something that has long only gotten lip service in most of the

Christian religions. Hate the sin, but love the sinner. This Pope also seems to be happy letting God be the judge, not man.

This Pope met with a gay couple, one of them has long been a friend, and this happened before the Davis "meeting". That is from the friends mouth.

That the Pope had nothing to do with the setup of the "meeting" that wasn't a meeting other than to be an unknowing participant has become obvious, that anyone would doubt that is almost incomprehensible.

[NonMetro]

29. Well, On That, You See:

Hold on, I need to find my spin notes on that. Hm, let's see..now where did I put those?

[TexasProgresive]

2. K&R

So where are all the Francis bashers who jumped on the kimmy story as completely true?

[Orrex]

4. To be fair, most of them bash Frankie for his support of anti-LGBT and anti-women dogma

The Davis thing was just another log on the fire, but the fire still burns without it.

[Octafish]

23. Really?

"I want you to know that in my work there is absolutely no place for homophobia." -- Pope Francis

[niyad]

36. and, while nobody is looking (they think): Vatican fires gay priest on eve of synod

Vatican fires gay priest on eve of synod

VATICAN CITY (AP) — The Vatican on Saturday fired a monsignor who came out as gay on the eve of a big meeting of the world's bishops to discuss church outreach to gays, divorcees and more traditional Catholic families.


Monsignor Krzysztof Charamsa, left, and his boyfriend Eduard, surname not given, pose for a photo as they leave a restaurant after a news conference in downtown Rome, Saturday Oct. 3, 2015.


The Vatican took action after Krzysztof Charamsa, a mid-level official in its doctrine office, came out in newspaper interviews in Italy and Poland saying he was happy and proud to be a gay priest, and that he was in love with a man whom he identified as his boyfriend.

"The decision to make such a pointed statement on the eve of the opening of the synod appears very serious and irresponsible, since it aims to subject the synod assembly to undue media pressure," the Vatican spokesman, the Rev. Federico Lombardi, said in a statement.

As a result, Charamsa could no longer work at the Vatican or its pontifical universities, he said. Despite his dismissal, Charamsa remains a priest, although Lombardi hinted that his superiors could take further action.


. . . .

http://www.mail.com/news/world/3863332-vatican-fires-gay-priest-eve-synod.html#.23140-stage-hero1-8

[Retrograde]

44. There's that whole vow of celibacy thing

If a priest remains celibate it shouldn't matter who he's not having sex with. Once he goes around acknowledging a boyfriend, though, that says he's not observing his vows.

[niyad]

45. celibacy?? you mean, like all the pedophile priests--you know, the ones who are NOT being fired?

[Orrex]

49. Shh...

We're not supposed to talk about that. Look! Frankie says stuff about capitalism--isn't he awesome?

[niyad]

51. I know. just cannot help myself from pointing out the obvious hypocrisy

[MH1]

56. I strongly suspect that if a priest announced he were a pedophile,

That priest would also be fired pretty quickly.

It's not that someone "accused" this guy of having a boyfriend, he announced it himself. So it would definitely seem to violate the celibacy policy. If a priest announced that he had secretly married a woman, or even that he had a "girlfriend" in the normal societal sense of the term, I would expect they'd be fired too.

That said, I don't believe the Pope or the Catholic Church has a positive, progressive, equal view of LGBT rights. They are very backward in this area. Anyone who thinks otherwise is either a moron, not paying attention at all, or seriously confused. But sometimes there are other reasons for a decision.

(I also prefer the Episcopal approach to the marriage thing in general. I think the Catholic Church should drop the celibacy requirement for priests altogether. But I expect a more inclusive approach to gays in the church, before that happens. In other words, I don't expect either any time soon.)

[niyad]

63. you are correct, neither is going to happen any time soon. the fact that even priests who are

convicted are not fired is very telling. the fact that there are diocese that declare bankruptcy rather than pay the court-ordered settlements is very telling.

[Orrex]

48. Yes, really. Where have you been?

Tell me about his efforts to establish marriage equality in the church, and just how progressive are his views on reproductive freedom?

Take your time, I'll wait.

[Octafish]

55. Pope held private meeting with same-sex couple in U.S.

By Daniel Burke, CNN Religion Editor
Updated 8:38 AM ET, Sat October 3, 2015

(CNN)The day before Pope Francis met anti-gay county clerk Kim Davis in Washington last week, he held a private meeting with a longtime friend from Argentina who has been in a same-sex relationship for 19 years.

Yayo Grassi, an openly gay man, brought his partner, Iwan Bagus, as well several other friends to the Vatican Embassy on September 23 for a brief visit with the Pope. A video of the meeting shows Grassi and Francis greeting each other with a warm hug.

In an exclusive interview with CNN, Grassi said the visit was arranged personally with the Pope via email in the weeks ahead of Francis' highly anticipated visit to the United States.

"Three weeks before the trip, he called me on the phone and said he would love to give me a hug," Grassi said.

SNIP...

Earlier on Friday, the Vatican said that the meeting with Davis was not intended as a show of support for her cause and "the only real audience granted by the Pope at the nunciature (embassy) was with one of his former students and his family."

"That was me," Grassi said.

Grassi, who is 67, added that he is willing to talk about his private moment with the pontiff because he was upset about media coverage of the Pope's meeting with Davis.

"I want to show the truth of who Pope Francis is," he said.

Pope Francis taught Grassi in literature and psychology classes at Inmaculada Concepcion, a Catholic high school in Sante Fe, Argentina, from 1964-1965. Grassi, who said he is an atheist, moved to the United States in 1978 and runs a catering business in Washington.

CONTINUED...

http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/02/us/pope-gay-washington/index.html

That's what CNN calls "Exclusive" news report. It's something more people should know, don't you think, Orrex?

[Orrex]

61. Did he marry them? No? Then it's window-dressing.

You're far too easily impressed, as long as the message is one that you want to hear.

[LanternWaste]

68. Many meetings are of substance, other merely window dressing...

Many meetings are of substance, other merely window dressing... depending on what better validates our biases.

[RKP5637]

5. Good question. I think many hope for truthfulness, but sadly anymore truth is

consistently distorted and often presented first for $$$$$'s.

[Bluenorthwest]

9. Still going to call out bigotry, even if those who are committed to Francis don't like it.

Kim Davis is just the most recent manifestation of an ongoing relationship between the Vatican and the religious right in opposing equality and choice. The Vatican and their supporters on DU have not yet managed to answer for the conference last November....Davis is small fry to a Pope who convenes with Tony Perkins of FRC. Small fry. A distraction from the main event....

"Vatican Strengthens Ties with Evangelicals and Mormons Against Gay Marriage"
American evangelical leaders say they are also leaving hopeful of the journey ahead. “The content of the colloquium was important, but perhaps more so were the connections made between people who share come concerns but who didn’t know each other before,” Moore says. “I am leaving the colloquium much more optimistic than I was when I arrived.”

Adds Tony Perkins, president of the Family Research Council: “The atmosphere was almost euphoric as the attendees from six of the world’s seven continents broke from the historic gathering to return to their respective nations renewed in their stand for marriage,” he says. “The courts may declare otherwise, and Hollywood may depict its demise, but the union of a man and a woman as the natural and enduring definition of marriage will endure until the end.”
http://time.com/3597245/vatican-evangelicals-mormons-gay-marriage/


Almost Euphoric!!!!

[bullwinkle428]

13. Okay, let's look at the various spins the Vatican placed on this story.

1. Never said a single word about the two of them meeting.

2. "We cannot confirm nor deny that a meeting took place."

3. "Okay, we can't deny that a meeting took place."

4. "Yeah, so she met him, but it was more like a receiving line at a wedding or Bar Mitzvah, where she barely made any contact with him".

5. "Okay, so there was a meeting, but he really had no idea what she was all about. He meets with all kinds of people! What's the big deal?"

6. "Poor doddering, feeble old Francis got horn-swaggled by a mutinous lieutenant."

[riderinthestorm]

15. Best summation I've seen.

[kwassa]

40. #6 is your own invention.

No one has said or implied that.

[Orrex]

50. Then the guy who got fired was acting on Frankie's instructions?

[rug]

52. That does not flow from the statement.

Logic!

[restorefreedom]

26. i said if it were true,

i would stop defending him here becsuse it seemed like a betrayal of his attempt to modernize the church's attitude and approach

if THIS is true and he was punked and fires the person responsible, then that is more in keeping with who i thought he was

i should have known that opportunistic slacker was lying all along

[rug]

53. There were a lot of opportunists in the "Fuck the Pope" thread as well.

[restorefreedom]

57. yes no doubt

i was kind of with him until the kimmee incident. glad it was a fabrication (or extreme exaggeration)

[Bluenorthwest]

6. Showbiz. I mean, last November the Vatican held a 3 Day anti marriage equality conference in Rome

Invited participants included Tony Perkins of Family Research Council, Maggie Gallagher of NOM, Rick Warren, the So Baptist leadership and so forth.
Are they going to apologize for that and claim they were duped into producing a massive event, tricked into inviting dozens of extreme right wing bigots to convene with them? Who will they fire? Muller, who organized the Rome conference also organized the Philly conference which also banned all LGBT voices and groups, Francis just made a huge deal out of promoting that even in our Congress and of course he attended that event.
http://time.com/3597245/vatican-evangelicals-mormons-gay-marriage/

[RKP5637]

8. Exactly!!! Showbiz!!! And advertising, Religion, Inc. n/t

[Bluenorthwest]

10. Francis' defenders on DU will not address the facts of that November conference.

They just ignore the facts.

[RKP5637]

11. Many use selective tuning. n/t

[Bluenorthwest]

12. That's a nice way to put it.

nt

[RKP5637]

14. There's an interesting theoretical paper on this ...

http://www.cse.yorku.ca/~tsotsos/Selective_Tuning/Selective_Tuning.html

[MH1]

34. I did address your post about that conference elsewhere.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=1223084


I'm not sure if you consider that "addressing the facts" to your satisfaction.

Personally I think only a MORON would try to claim that the Pope or the Catholic Church have changed in any fundamental, official way their position on gay marriage or LGBT rights. The only claim in that area is that he has striven, at least somewhat, to tone down the rhetoric and emphasis on that position, while prioritizing other issues where they can rightfully claim to be more progressive.

I also think only a moron denies the reality of climate change and the magnitude of its consequences. Those consequences will affect LGBT as much as anyone else, possibly more. So here we have a world leader with a tremendous amount of influence, trying to point his followers to pay attention to THAT, and here someone goes and steps on his message and pulls the focus back to exactly where he doesn't want it to be.

[niyad]

47. see post 36 for more evidence of ignoring the facts.

[awoke_in_2003]

25. Bingo

Not jumping on him for one event, but for a history of homophobic actions

[BarackTheVote]

66. People can change

What Jorge Mario Bergoglio does is different from what Bishop Bergoglio does is different from what Pope Francis does. Bishops have to toe the line, the Pope doesn't. One anecdote I recently heard came after Bishop Bergoglio made a disparaging comment about gays and called homosexuality "the devil's work." This same friend that he met in D.C., Yayo Grassi, wrote him a letter expressing his distress at then Bishop Bergoglio's statement. I believe the letter was to the effect of "I thought you were better than that." Bergoglio responded to the letter with a sincere apology and said "you are right, bigotry has no place in the Church." Pope Francis is a man who is willing to learn from the experiences of others, with sympathy and empathy. I wasn't always okay with LGBT, but then one of my cousins came out, and we had many conversations and I realized my mistake. Sometimes, yes, "I have a gay friend" is a copout, but sometimes those gay friends can completely change your worldview, and I believe that's the case with Pope Francis.

[bemildred]

7. Yep. nt

[katsy]

16. Glad to hear this.

But the Vatican shouldn't be forgiven until they shitcan bigoted dogma against the lgbt community and women for that matter.

No compromise on human rights. None.

[SidDithers]

19. Shitcan the guy who arranged for Kim Davis to meet the Pope...

but just shuttle that pedophile priest to a new congregation.

Strange priorities, there.

Sid

[catbyte]

20. Why would he even meet with her if it wasn't because of her bigotry? She isn't even a

fucking Catholic, for crying out loud. Pope Francis has said he doesn't accept same sex marriage, so why the kerfuffle? Because it makes him look bad? Why hide your true opinion? Didn't he say that public employees have the right to refuse to do their job if they disagree with the concept of same sex marriage? I don't see the Vatican calling Davis a liar, either. The church's position on this is just as despicable as Davis's is.

[RKP5637]

24. Yep! RCC is trying to play the middle road for PR, while still trashing LGBT.

RCC destroyed some beautiful relationships of mine with their hogwash. Some just gotta believe every word they utter with no discretionary/critical thinking involved.

[demmiblue]

39. Yeah, I don't get it... they are two peas in a pod regarding LGBT issues.

[TexasProgresive]

59. Here's the quote which doesn't mention Same Sex Marriage

"I can't have in mind all the cases that can exist about conscientious objection … but yes, I can say that conscientious objection is a right that is a part of every human right. It is a right. And if a person does not allow others to be a conscientious objector, he denies a right."

I absolutely agree with it. People have a right to be conscientious objectors. This included Kim Davis. I had friends that were C.O. during the Vietnam kerfuffle and were draft eligible. They paid a price of being pariahs to family and community and some were forced into non-military service as hospital orderlies (military) They did not complain about any of it because it was part and parcel of their decision to be C.O.. Kim Davis is not a C.O. if she was she would have tendered her resignation at the time the Supreme Court handed down the decision.

I believe the Popes answer to the reporter's question was carefully crafted to show support for those who protest against laws etc but not to give blanket support to bigots who happen to be public officials and refuse to serve the public.

[Anansi1171]

28. I guess Opus Dei is alive and well in the Church after all.

What really would have been creepy is to learn that Ted Cruz and Mike Huckabee were in a fist fight to attend the meeting.

[packman]

30. I say let's have a Select Republican Senate Committee

look into this.

[RKP5637]

31. Definitely a TOP PRIORITY for this congress and their bizarre investigations by committee. n/t

[dae]

32. I hope someone does this episode justice on her Wikipedia page.

[zalinda]

33. Lapsed Catholic here, now Agnostic (I guess)

It is very possible the pope did not know who Davis is, and did not knowingly greet her. It would be the same thing as some respected dignitary from another country presenting his guests for Obama. The pope and Obama would assume that the guests for the quick meet and greet would have been vetted. These are busy men, who rely on people to do what is needed.

As for the pope, he did warmly hug a former student and his male partner, even if it was for a minute or so. There is a video of it, as the couple wanted a record of it.

This pope has done more for the world than any pope before him. Even without touching the women, gay, abortion subjects, his underlings (I don't know what else to call them) are fighting him. Let him take a breath. We have no idea what his views are about the taboo subjects, maybe he is liberal or conservative, but at least we know he is leading in the right direction. He is going to take on the pedophile priests, he has met with some of the survivors.

He is not the past popes, he is himself. Dragging the church into the 21st century is hard work, especially when some are working against you. There is so much that needs to be corrected. I hope he will succeed, not for the church, but for the world.

Yes, I admire the man. The good that he has accomplished is remarkable. If what he is advocating is all he can get done in his lifetime, he will have helped save the planet and the poor, and that is a good thing.

Z

[RKP5637]

37. As some of my friends have said, one does not know for sure what he thinks

about many topics, there is some much baggage he carries with the church. He could be very outspoken and violent about LGBT. I've not heard that.

Herding cats is a very difficult job, I think that's what he does. As you said and I agree: "He is not the past popes, he is himself. Dragging the church into the 21st century is hard work, especially when some are working against you. There is so much that needs to be corrected. I hope he will succeed, not for the church, but for the world."

[niyad]

35. what in the HELL is "the first respectable opportunity"? some time after we have all, they hope,

forgotten this disgusting incident?

[RKP5637]

41. There must be some very super dissonant meetings going on in the Vatican about PR. n/t

[niyad]

43. may all their homophobic, woman-hating heads explode.

[RKP5637]

58. Ditto!!! n/t

[Deadshot]

38. Frank's PR team is in full scrub mode.

[RKP5637]

42. Yeah! I would love to be a fly on the wall! n/t

[hughee99]

46. What's the Italian word for "shitcan"? Nt

[Heddi]

54. Wait...so he'll shitcan this guy

but not the hundreds (or more) priests who are known to have molested children and the higher ups who knew about it and allowed it to happen by moving them to different locations....

BFD. Fire Bernard Law and then we'll talk.

[totodeinhere]

60. This type of double talking BS makes me sick. What does "at the first respectable opportunity"

mean? Jesus (no pun intended,) if they want to fire the guy fire him now. And meanwhile, the Vatican just fired a gay priest.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10141223768

[niyad]

64. that was my question, as well.

[BarackTheVote]

65. Archbishop Viganò

turns 75 in January, the age at which Bishops must put in a mandatory request for retirement. Francis is expected to "accept" this request, whether Viganò wants him to or not.

And priests can't have significant others, period. It's a violation of their oath of celibacy.

[totodeinhere]

67. Yes I know, and that's why this pope is just as regressive as the rest of them. Celibacy has

outlived its usefulness long ago and if he can't even do away with that then he is a fraud.

[BarackTheVote]

69. I don't agree with that

celibacy has its place. Being a priest is not an ordinary job. One shouldn't become a priest with the intention to make a livelihood, and with no livelihood, what is there to pass on to your children for their support? The oath of celibacy started because priests and bishops were trying to bequeath Church property to their families, which is understandable, but Church property, at the time even up to the present day in places, is like Federal Land. Could you imagine if a mayor or governor tried to will public land to their children? That said, if it is decided that priests can marry, then I wouldn't have a particular problem with it, but I don't think it's something that has outlived its usefulness.

[hifiguy]

62. Accountability for screwing up?

What a concept. Wish we had it in our government and business sectors.