In The UK, Guns Aren't The Problem, It's Knives.

[RKP5637]

Last edited Sat Oct 3, 2015, 05:59 PM - Edit history (1)

There is of course the weapon of choice, but the real question is, what is the underlying cause for one to take weapons against another. Same problem, different weapon. I was just listening to this on BBC London, the fear many people have of WTF is going on.

http://news.sky.com/story/1520156/knife-offences-up-amid-rise-in-overall-crime?dcmp=snt-sf-twitter

Update: I deleted a quote from townhall.com which was here that has been pointed out to me is not a good source.

[jberryhill]

1. When a guy with a knife takes out a dozen people in a shopping mall or school, let us know

[RKP5637]

2. Yes, definitely, a gun is more lethal. Apparently they outlawed guns, then it switched, now

apparently knives are the problem. Definitely, knives are less lethal, but I wonder, is this just natural to mankind to violently attack others. If so, then that needs to be considered the root cause and also dealt with.

[Recursion]

9. Well, no: even in the UK guns are what people use to inflict mass casualties. That and bombs

But non-political bombings are AFAIK essentially unknown.

It's more difficult to get guns in the UK than in the US, so the capability to do this is lessened (though not eliminated). There also doesn't seem to be as much desire to do it in the first place.

[Jim Beard]

44. What type of guns are allowed

I know small shotguns are allowed for country dwellers but what about pistols?

[Recursion]

46. Some shotguns and .22 rimfire rifles are allowed

Though keep in mind "allowed" and "actually available" are different questions; in Cumbria in 2010 Bird used a legal .22 rimfire rifle to kill his first victim and an illegal magazined shotgun to kill the remaining 11 victims.

Pistols are essentially banned; even the UK Olympic shooting team has to go to the Channel Islands to train.

[etherealtruth]

3. apparently knives are not nearly "as effective" agents of intentional homicide as guns

http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/United-Kingdom/United-States/Crime

[RKP5637]

4. This seems so much more prevalent than in the past. I'm curious as to what the underlying socialital

dynamics are that some strike out with knives or guns, etc. That, will be the root cause IMO.
Thanks for the link!

[uppityperson]

5. Thank you. I've been wondering that also and have read too little about it

[TubbersUK]

32. Exactly

Homicide by knife hit a 30/40 year peak in the UK in 2006/07 at 272.

That's 272 too many of course but mercifully low compared to the US 'murder with firearms' figure in your chart .

[beevul]

6. Fabulous.

If that's 'civilization', I'll take a pass.

[RKP5637]

7. Yep, it will get ridiculous. Unless the root cause is understood and somehow alleviated

Last edited Sun Oct 4, 2015, 08:41 AM - Edit history (1)

or at best minimized this will likely morph on and on. What I see is the lack of a focus on what is the root cause of gun and knife violence. At one time it was mostly robberies and the like, but now it seems likely for sport. Also, likely it's indicative that some need some help with their emotions, but there is no easy route for them to get the help they need. The societal systems are failing.
It's much like putting band-aids on cancer as a treatment.

I'm sure someone/some group someplace is looking into this too.

[Recursion]

8. Ryan, Sartin, Hamilton, and Bird all used guns

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungerford_massacre

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monkseaton_shootings

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunblane_school_massacre

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumbria_shootings

I'm not aware of a knife massacre: in the UK as elsewhere, guns are the weapon of choice for lone people who want to cause a lot of carnage. (Though bombings have a much longer history in the UK than in a lot of places, but bombings for some reason almost always have a political motive.)

Interestingly, the one mass shooting in the UK since the reforms after Dunblane did not begin as a random mass spree killing but rather as a domestic murder which then escalated.

[RKP5637]

14. What are the underlying reasons we are seeing more of this in the states? Just more people now?

Yes, a gun is definitely more lethal, no question at all, but why do some individuals strike out like this. Is it a pattern, are there common causative factors at work?

[hifiguy]

25. Lots of untreated mental illness,

which is still stigmatized in US culture, and a lot of macho idiots who think gunz make them "manly."

[RKP5637]

28. Yep, I think that's a big part of it. And where to turn for help or even pay, and sometimes

people need help and they don't even realize it. Yeah, the macho thing is so damn stupid. The damn fools who think guns make a man.

[Recursion]

45. It's odd, isn't it? Even countries with higher gun violence than us don't seem to have this

I've compared us to Brazil a few times (another western Hemisphere post-colonial country with a legacy of slavery and racism and high inequality). Brazil has significantly higher gun violence than us, but has apparently only had one random mass spree shooting, at a school in Rio in 2011. Whereas it's been something of a feature of American culture for a while now.

[RKP5637]

57. It is odd. It used to be robberies, confrontations, etc. for the most part sometimes led to gun

violence. One could avoid it, what parts of town, etc., be careful, etc., etc. ... but now it just strikes out, and also against children. It is, it seems to be "something of a feature of American culture for a while now."

[smirkymonkey]

60. I have always wondered why schools are so often the target?

[RKP5637]

64. Excellent question, it's so horrific. Innocent children and they go after them. I imagine

sociologists are studying this in detail.

[Recursion]

65. Workplaces are apparently even more common

But get less sensationalistic press coverage

[Recursion]

66. Because for the most part this is done by young males

And for the most part young males are in school.

If I had to guess.

[Duckhunter935]

67. copycats

due to the 24/7 exposure they know they will get on every channel.

[RKP5637]

68. Yep, I think that's a big part of it. People on the edge and in their mind it's seen as OK to do,

plus the instant notoriety.

[Duckhunter935]

69. and it is almost never mentioned

stop publicizing the names if the idiots.

[RKP5637]

70. Yep! n/t

[Mojorabbit]

76. Yes nt

[shadowrider]

55. Here ya go

I'm not aware of a knife massacre:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2570996/At-27-dead-109-injured-gang-knife-wielding-men-attack-train-station-China.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_attacks_in_China_%282010%E2%80%9312%29

http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/crime/item/13946-china-school-knife-massacre-why-no-media-coverage

Enough for you? There are more, just google knife massacres or knife killings.

[Recursion]

56. In the UK

I'm well aware of Chinese knife massacres, which seem like part of a fairly long pattern of edged weapon massacres in East Asian history.

[TubbersUK]

10. "The rise in knife attacks has been in the UK press since 2008........" - Really ???

That's odd because according to the Guardian , the latest increase follows a four year downward trend and still shows a 50% drop from the peak six years ago.

Am I missing something or is that Sky quote in the OP a tad misleading?

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/jul/16/knife-in-england-and-wales-up-for-first-time-in-four-years

Knife crime has increased in England and Wales for the first time in four years, with the number of assaults with blades rising 13%, according to the latest set of police recorded crime figures.

The Office for National Statistics said the 2% rise in all knife crime offences in the 12 months to March marked the end of a downward trend in the previous four years but the total remained more than 50% below its peak six years ago.

[RKP5637]

12. They were discussing on BBC this morning. There is considerable concern. Yes, the Sky quote

could be misleading, but in the article it said:

Reports of knife assaults rise by 13% compared to last year, as statistics also show general crime is on the increase.

http://news.sky.com/story/1520156/knife-offences-up-amid-rise-in-overall-crime?dcmp=snt-sf-twitter

[TubbersUK]

15. Definitely misleading In my opinion

Last years' 13% rise is certainly a cause for concern but it's just wrong to characterise it as part of a long term trend as that sky quote does.

ETA: We just don't know yet.

[RKP5637]

16. Yep, they well might have read too much into it. n/t

[TubbersUK]

40. Ah, I see from down the thread

that it was actually a bastardised Sky quote courtesy of Townhall.

Sources are such a minefield sometimes - thanks for taking it out of the OP.

[RKP5637]

42. Yep!!!

[workinclasszero]

11. Which would you rather face?

A nutcase with a semi auto assault rifle that has a 30 round clip filled with hollow point bullets

Or...

A nutcase with a knife?

I can outrun a knife. A hollow point bullet? Not so much.

[RKP5637]

13. Definitely a knife. ... but my questing was, why are we seeing more of this. What are the underlying

social dynamics causing one to strike out with a gun or a knife.

[workinclasszero]

17. How do you explain evil?

I can think of no good rational reason to randomly murder innocent people.

You could say increasing social isolation, lack of upward social movement, cronic unemployment, lack of schooling, his mommy did not show him love and his daddy beat him. I dunno.

Of course millions of people live with these same issues and worse and never would whip out a gun and start killing people over it.

That scum that did the latest mass murder is fu**ing evil.

That's all I got, sorry.

[RKP5637]

19. I think that's a lot of it too. I've always felt one can be born evil and/or predisposed to it

for organic reasons, and then environmentally influenced toward evilness. So, they are on the edge, maybe even well hidden, and then eventually they act out.

I've wondered if they see these other mass killings and then see that, somehow in their mind, that it's OK to do. To me, that is a reason for good gun regulation, I suppose they could always get one, but it seems it could be made harder.

Yep, I would much rather have someone coming at me with a knife than a gun. I wonder if the politicians will do anything, so often it's a 3rd rail for them, none want to touch it. Thanks for getting back to me!

[workinclasszero]

29. Not excusing murder but. ..

Maybe there's too many people on this earth now?

Seems like there was an experiment done with animals where they were all crowded together in a small space to see what would happen.

Don't recall the type but apparently they started attacking and killing each other.

Mankind use to always have a frontier or a wild west area to go to if you didn't like where you were born.

But not anymore. Like I said, no excuse for murder but I wonder if overcrowding plays a role?

[RKP5637]

31. Yep, I'm familiar with the experiment, studied it a long time ago and have never

forgotten it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_B._Calhoun

I definitely think there are some causative factors from overcrowding and also hence IMO the devaluation of life. I think we are seeing that now, and this, coupled with limited resources on earth, is going to lead IMO to some pretty nasty times in our lives.

[workinclasszero]

37. Wow that's the study...thanks

It really seems like overcrowding could be causing some of these terrible things eh?

Could this even be an underlying cause of the world wars where millions and millions of people perished?

[RKP5637]

41. I think so. To me, people often get in the way of each other and that's when conflicts

start. Groups of people/nations have their own ideologues and are unwilling to bend. I'm wondering what's going to happen as we run out of resources. In math there's something called the 'infinity test' to see if a theorem or something is valid. You take a number to infinity as a test case. So, consider earth, run the population to infinity! Yep, that sure won't work. Question is, when do we reach the breaking point. I guess TPTB are looking into this. You and I certainly aren't the only ones concerned, but it sure does not get much coverage in MSM. And none ever talk about how to manage it.

[workinclasszero]

43. Interesting stuff

Maybe NASA needs to get cracking on that mars mission eh?

Humanity might really need a new frontier

[smirkymonkey]

62. I agree, this topic needs to be discussed more often than it is.

I think the problem is in controlling population. It's such a difficult one to solve. It would involve changing the cultural beliefs of many third world nations, and that isn't something that is going to happen very quickly or easily.

[RKP5637]

63. Yep, it will take generations to meld the pot together, so to say. n/t

[smirkymonkey]

61. That's very interesting. I think this should be it's own OP.

Thanks for the link.

[yeoman6987]

26. It started when they took prayer out of schools /scarc

Actually republicans believe that. Is there any truth to this? Or morals left the building?

Who knows I guess it could be a lot of factors.

[Shankapotomus]

49. Perhaps people are encountering more structural violence

We live under a system that requires competition. Competition breeds more hurt feelings and dissatisfaction than a system of greater cooperation.

[RKP5637]

52. IMO that is one of the underlying root causes. One feels they can't compete

for whatever reason and a shooing becomes a leveling event to them, perhaps. Definitely, we live in a society where most things are win/lose. It is not healthy. The reward system should be based on greater cooperation, not greater competition. Of course all individuals won't respond shooting, but some do. This certainly does not cover all of the causes IMO, but is likely one of the causative factors.

[muriel_volestrangler]

18. Well, thanks for the townhall.com quote, I guess - no wonder it was misleading

That's what townhall.com is for. Here's what you quoted:

In The UK, Guns Aren't The Problem, It's Knives. And The Number Of Attacks Are Surging
Matt Vespa | Jul 18, 2015

Gun ownership is an alien concept with our British cousins across the Atlantic, but that doesn’t mean that violent crime has been reduced. In fact, with no guns readily available, though there are gun crimes in the UK, knives seem to be the weapon of choice. This isn't surprising. The rise in knife attacks has been in the UK press since 2008–and they’ve increased by 13 percent since last year (via Sky News):

http://townhall.com/tipsheet/mattvespa/2015/07/18/uk-knife-attacks-are-surging-n2026497

(Sky got it right, by the way, since they started their article "Knife crime has increased for the first time in many years, annual crime statistics have revealed.&quot

I did a comparison between knife homicide in the UK and USA a couple of years ago:

Figures for 3 years of England & Wales homicides

Sharp instrument 698
Hitting, kicking, etc. 401
Blunt instrument 167
Strangulation/asphyxiation 158
Shooting 140
Other 320
Total 1,884

(note the years for recording crime don't run from Jan-Dec, for some reason. So "combined data for 2008/09 to 2010/11" means 3 years, starting 2008, 2009 and 2010)

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/science-research-statistics/research-statistics/crime-research/hosb0212/hosb0212?view=Binary

These can be compared with the US data, available for 2008 here:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2009/oct/05/us-homicide-rates
The US had a homicide by sharp instrument rate of 0.67 per 100,000 per year; England and Wales, roughly, 0.43 (about 55 million population). Hitting etc. - USA: 0.30; E&W: 0.25. So those 2 categories are roughly equal. Shooting: USA: 3.33; E&W: 0.09.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2282358

[RKP5637]

21. Thanks for this update! I've just been hearing it talked about a lot today on the BBC.

I did a Google, saw it on townhall.com and had no idea who they were, until I saw some posts, so I referred to the Sky link. I should have deleted what townhall.com said.

Thanks for the additional information you just provided.

[RKP5637]

24. I updated my OP to delete the townhall.com quote. Thanks! n/t

[TubbersUK]

47. That homicide by knife comparison is useful

I keep seeing this idea or implication that knife homicides in the UK are inordinately high and/or surging therefore gun control in the US is moot.

It's jarring because knife murders in the UK are, thankfully, fairly rare - and, as you point out, the UK rate is actually lower than that for the US .

[WinkyDink]

20. Semi-automatic knives, now?

[RKP5637]

22. Likely! When I was a kid smoking in the boy's bathroom was about the worst one could do. n/t

[Crunchy Frog]

23. Soccer riots are a big problem there too

Or at least they were the last time I spent any time there, which is awhile, admittedly.

What's their murder rate like compared with ours?

[RKP5637]

27. Someone did an analysis on it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7227728

[valerief]

30. Do they have mass stabbings every couple of weeks? nt

[Contrary1]

33. Or drive-by stabbings? n/t

[valerief]

34. I'll take cutlery over bullets any day. nt

[RKP5637]

38. Yep! Same here!!! n/t

[RKP5637]

35. I'm wondering what it might morph to next. I think the root cause for the behavior is likely

similar, but the weapon of choice is restricted. Serious restrictions would be a good start. As some have said, better to have a mass knifing attempted than a mass gun slaying attempted.

[valerief]

36. Trickle-down Thatcherism, like we have trickle-down Reaganism.

The U.S. isn't the only country that ships jobs to China and hacks away at the middle class.

[RKP5637]

39. Excellent point!!! I do think that has a lot to do with it. I think many see

the world as hopeless today to live a reasonable life. I feel sorry for kids today that have no resources from their parents. Thatcherism and Reaganism have been the most destructive forces on a society IMO in my lifetime.

[Shankapotomus]

50. There was a mass knife attack in China a while back

The attacker stabbed 20 school children. All of them lived. If the attacker had a gun I'm sure not all of those kids would have survived.

[RKP5637]

53. Definitely, guns are more lethal. Getting the availability of guns under control is the right

step IMO. And we certainly don't know all of the causative factors, and IMO that will take awhile and then to find solutions. ... but getting better control of the availability of guns is something that can be started quickly.

I find it difficult to believe that congress, etc. will sit idly by, but likely that might happen. There is so much money in guns and ammunition in this country, it's hard to tell what might happen to improve the situation.

This all said, there are responsible gun owners and they too are in agreement I've read that we need better control of the availability of guns. In one poll I saw the majority of Americans want that, but congress is DUH!

[Jeneral2885]

48. Anyone watched the hit TV series Flashpoint?

Staring the ex-Pink Ranger Amy Jo Johnson. A Canadian cop show.

"A knife's as bad as a gun. It never sticks, never jams, never runs out of ammo, and you don't need training to know how to use it."

Backwards Day episode.

[tavernier]

51. Guns are more impersonal

A lot of these macho shooters would rethink their killing spree if they had to actually plunge a knife into someone while looking them in the face, IMO. Not all, but I bet most.

[RKP5637]

54. Yep, I agree. It removes the shooter from the event. Some, not all, might think, WTF am I doing. It

gives time to think, whereas a gun is over in an instant.

[Warren Stupidity]

58. Ah I see gunzcentral has decided to expand

from "its da meds not da gunz" to the chorus of retread talking points from prior horror show events.

[RKP5637]

59. What are the causes? Why do some strike out with mass shootings, especially in the US.

Getting guns under better control is the first step IMO.

[Warren Stupidity]

74. There is a 100% correlation between guns and mass shootings.

Other countries have successfully controlled mass shootings by, shockingly, strictly regulating the type of guns that can be owned and how those guns are used.

Until we do that everything else is a distraction intended to obstruct the one obvious action a society can take to reduce gun violence.

[RKP5637]

75. Well said!!! n/t

[Mojorabbit]

77. I am finding the conversation thoughtful and interesting.

No need for nasty comments.

[Warren Stupidity]

78. I find the stigmatization of people with emotional disabilities appalling.

But that is just me. Oh, and perhaps the New York Times, which in today's edition also noted, on its front page, just how dubious this particular deflection tactic is.

[Mojorabbit]

79. The discussion was about possible reasons for this behavior

including overcrowding and comparisons to other countries for the most part. It was a fine discussion till now. My husband developed a mental illness before he took his life a little less than two years ago so you can stuff your reply.

[malaise]

71. At least knives have other uses

Guns are made to kill

[RKP5637]

72. Excellent point, malaise, as always!!!

[malaise]

73. Sometimes

Wink

[RKP5637]

80. ...