I am Latina but pass as White

[artislife]

What I experience is different from what one of my brother experiences. What we all can do when we see racism in action and use our White Privilege to change this society one incident at a time.

https://www.facebook.com/Upworthy/videos/1116344198406437/?fref=nf

Nothing is going to change unless we all are willing to change. We can accomplish so much when we join TOGETHER.

[FreakinDJ]

1. Me too

[mmonk]

2. Yes, I have seen this before (both in video and action).

[patricia92243]

3. I was not aware that Latinos did not consider themselves white. If not white, then

what color?

In writing, things can seem sort of blunt. I certainly do not mean it that way.

[artislife]

4. When people shout at you to GO HOME

Or call you Bean Dip, Illegal, Spick, Wet Back.....get it?

White people don't consider Latinos White.


That sounds blunt...but the last 10 years has been worse than it was when I was growing up. Look at all the rhetoric about the border, the posses, the laws!

My brother who looked Mexican, was stopped for a traffic "infringement" in Texas. He was detained for a week without being charged and no call to a lawyer. Then just released. Just like that.

He is the sibling who was (he is now dead, wow..this hurts to write) the get along to go along out of us. Because it was his survival mechanism.

[hedgehog]

13. "White people don't consider Latinos White." - I think that it is more accurate to say that

some white people don't consider Latinos white. I think it is foolish for any white person to refuse to acknowledge white privilege just because they personally don't see themselves as racist. I think it is foolish for any white person not to recognize that to a person of color, we may be / must be seen as a possible problem. There are few ways, short of flaunting a Confederate flag, to indicate whether as a white person I am hostile to people of color or not. It's painful to admit that I am seen as a default racist because of my white skin, but foolish to deny. It's also very , very harmful to believe that just because I , as a white person, see myself as non-racist, that therefore all white people are non-racist.

From my own perspective as an elderly white woman - I try to treat all people with respect, but I don't know if I succeed.

[artislife]

17. Yes I am sorry I meant some White people

There is good and bad everywhere.

[hedgehog]

21. No, don't be sorry - I think white people need to hear the point of view of someone

who has to assume that any white person is a potential problem until proven otherwise. For example - 99 out of 100 white cops may be OK, but a POC has to assume that they've encountered that 1 out of 100 who is dangerous.

[Skittles]

89. thank you for that

no one likes to be stereotyped

[artislife]

91. :)

[BlueJazz]

23. People actually call you that crap ? I need to get out more.

Maybe I Don't need to get out more. That's truly sad and disgusting. Damn...

[Skittles]

90. sometimes I wish I could hear it

so I could kick some racist ass

[BlueJazz]

92. I'd make you promise to save some for me. Been awhile since I've felt "the fury"

[Drahthaardogs]

100. It did not used to be that way.

I grew up in Colorado. I was looking at the 1920 census. The Mexican heritage was considered white. Look at old draft cards. Same thing. Hispanic not white is a new thing. Only Americans are so obsessed with race. Mexicans do not do race anymore on their records and have not sice 1824.

[artislife]

102. That might be true

But who did Trump go after first?

What is the main problem for many on the right? The "open" border.

The border crossing I take to go to Vancouver BC from Seattle



http://adventureawaits.com/2013/09/family-adventure-peace-arch/

They loved it. I argue that Peace Arch is probably the nicest international border crossing on planet Earth. Ranger Jason, Robin and crew have been doing a fantastic job maintaining the grounds & gardens. The park looked great as always.

Mexican border



When I drove my brother up to Vancouver when he came, he was pissed. You know what is on the Peace arch?


Does the US think of Mexico and her people as children of a common mother?

This.

the inscription on the U.S. side of the Peace Arch reads "Children of a common mother", and the words on the Canadian side read "Brethren dwelling together in unity". Within the arch, each side has an iron gate mounted on either side of the border with an inscription above reading "May these gates never be closed".

[Prism]

145. What's (very morbidy) amusing is the racial confusion

My sister-in-law is Mexican, with darker skin and tapered eyes. However, she has an odd first name and my brother's Irish last name. She worked very hard to learn English over the last seven years and has largely eliminated her accent.

The result? Everyone assumes she's Filipina. It is the strangest thing. And, living in a somewhat rural area where there are enclaves of Mexican immigrant communities, people will complain to her in a racially insulting way about local non-English speakers. In this regional area's eyes, there are locals and Mexican immigrants. She's considered a local. The stories she tells about the racists she encounters and how they try to enlist her as a co-conspirator.

Now her kids, my niece and nephew, have her skin tone and dark coloring, but they don't have her tapered eyelids. So, they look more traditionally latino. And, yep, people have no problem assuming the kids are Mexican (despite being half-white).

To add stupidity to ignorance, I have dark hair and eyes while my brother is blonde/blue. When he and I have been out together with the kids, people always assume they're mine. And in making the association, on several occasions it's been assumed I'm mixed latino. I'm the whitest white Irish person ever. Sunlight and I do not get on. I have freckles across my nose and cheeks. But put in a confusing racial situation, people start making assumptions.

There's this bizarre needs to categorize and associate some people have. To create their in groups and out groups. I wish they would just knock it off already. People are people. That's all the assumption we need ever make.

[artislife]

146. I so get that!

I had two brothers, one has died, that didn't look like brothers but if you put me in between them you could see the family resemblance. One brother had the Irish complexion and eye and hair coloring but Mexican features and the other had almost black hair and very chocolate colored eyes and Olive complexion with Irish features. Me, I have the fine Irish hair, hazel eyes, Native cheek bones and an Irish nose. I turn mahogany in the summer if I sit out and tan.


It would be great if we had a live and let live attitude towards other humans, but we are surely not there yet.

[Prism]

147. You guys sound like my boyfriend's family

He comes from an Irish-American mother and a Chinese father with tan complexion. They're three brothers. The eldest is pale with hazel eyes and wavy brown/red hair. The middle, my boyfriend, has asian features around his eyes and black hair - he's pretty identifiable as biracial. The youngest is full on asian with a darker skin tone.

We call it the genetic kaleidoscope, lol.

[artislife]

150. Genetic kaleidoscope, I like it! nt

[Igel]

6. We live in a very racialized society.

Whatever the problem, whatever the effect, the first cause many look to is race. Those who can't find a cause for some problem in race still are urged by many to first look for a racial cause for every effect possible.

When you look at stats for race, they're either black/white/Nat. Am/Asian or they break them down black/non-Latino white/Latino (etc.) or use the official term "Hispanic".

However, in my lifetime there's been this alternative push to redefine racial boundaries as white/non-white. Sometimes it's been for political solidarity and power-oriented coalition building. Sometimes it's been because some whites see the racial breakdown that way and it's easy to stereotype. Sometimes because it's safest to assume ill-will on the part of others, whatever that means for the present state of social capital in the US and the future of social capital in the US.

Among many who go with the primary classification being white/non-white, there are those who need to further break down demographics into smaller racial categories. If "Latino" isn't a coherent racial category, it undermines the entire idea that for every effect we should seek a racial cause. For those people, this causes too much cognitive dissonance. "Ethnic discrimination" has less of an "this is absolute evil" tinge to it, and allows for changeable surface characteristics and not innate, genetic traits to be the reason for the discrimination. That leads to nasty, hard-to-win arguments. Race is safe space.

Had a friend who asked if I considered him white because he was told (by somebody who wasn't) that he, too, wasn't. I said yes, he was white, and it really confused him. When he asked a bunch of other people, he got a huge range of responses. "Yes, you're white." "No, you're brown." "You're not black, so you're white." One even responded, "How can you be white, you're Muslim?"--that all-too-common confusion of religion and race that even some DUers are prone to. (To which somebody else in the Muslim Student's Association who was present said he most certainly wasn't Muslim, he was Shi'ite. Those Sa'udis.)

The guy's impression at the time was that those consciously left-of-center tended to insist he not be classified as white; moderates and conservatives trended mixed. This was the Southland, not the South, and it was years ago before the current hyperpolarization reached its present fevered pitch, so take "conservative" with a grain of salt if you're from much of the country. He was amused when, a few months later, he was hired and he had to check the racial classification box. His employer--a largish employer--said that he should check the "white" box.

We say race is socially constructed. We say society is diverse. Then we not only expect we demand to the point of presupposition that in this diverse social-construction there be single-minded answers to every question. Often because we assume that the only diversity that actually counts is racial, reinforcing and emphasizing distinctions to reinforce group boundaries even as we demand that some (but just those we don't like, given our particular philosophy) be eliminated. Sometimes because it's necessary for political goals to make this kind of simplistic assumption--nuance and complexity, uncertainty and ambiguity are inherently the evil of a lot of ideology.

Some pass for being white because they are white, it just surprises them when their perceptions, assumed to be universal, aren't everybody's. In some cases they "pass" not because the other person thinks they're white but because the other person really doesn't care. (And in cases when the person can't possibly think they're passing, confirmation bias tends to come up with some other opinion-protecting reason for the lack of discrimination, or discrimination is still identified according to a kind of modern quantum rule.)

My usual response when somebody says Latino =/= white is to point out that Xuxa was Latino. She wasn't indio nor Afro-Brazilian, to be sure (the hair/eye colors are her own).

I consciously avoid importing gender/case distinctions from other languages into English. I did not say that Putin's wife was Mrs. Putina (khotya by po-russki tak nazyvalas'), nor do I say that Obama met with Putinym. I only call Tatyana Tolstaya or Navratilova by their feminine-adjective surnames because they do; if either was unknown in the US I'd refer to one as Tatyana Tolstoy and the other as Navratilov. Having disposed of long-standing gender-based nouns (actor/actress), we're pretty much left with the adjectives blond(e) and brunet(te) and those are fading fast even among speakers of relatively standard English. Seems like a bad idea to dispose of one set of gendered adjectives on political/ideological grounds and then flip around and insist on them on the same political/ideological grounds.

[REP]

11. Anyone who thinks Latino/a / Hispanic isn't "white" should visit Spain

In the US, it seems what many think of as Latino/Hispanic is a person at least partially descended from the indigenous people of the Americas, and not someone who looks stereotypically white (that is, fair skin, light eyes, etc) and has a Spanish surname. A person classified as "Hispanic" may speak only Nahautl or K'iche'.

[a la izquierda]

14. If Spaniards are Latinos...

Are Italians?

[monicaangela]

25. Neither Spaniards nor Italians

are Latinos: A Latino or Latina is a person who was born or lives in South America, Central America, or Mexico or a person in the U.S. whose family is originally from South America, Central America, or Mexico.

[meow2u3]

28. Spaniards, Italians, Portuguese, etc. are Latins, but not Latinos

They're from Latin Europe, derived from the languages that came from Latin.

BTW, French, Romanians, and even some Swiss and Moldovans are also Latin.

[1939]

77. I think it is about one-eighth of the Swiss

That speak Rhaeto-Romansch which is a Latin language very distinct from the Italian speaking Swiss.

[DFW]

95. Nowhere near that many

I'm there a lot (was just there last week up until yesterday), and Romansch is the one language spoken there that I don't speak. There are about 100,000 native speakers of Romansch, and about 6 million Swiss of other linguistic backgrounds. There are also over 1 million foreigners living in Switzerland, largely from neighboring countries, like France, Germany, Italy and Austria with a liberal smattering of Brits and, newly, Russians. Always a few Americans, Canadians, Chinese, Japanese, etc. etc. Lots of Swiss-foreign marriages, as you might imagine, though Romansch is mostly spoken out in the boonies (Scuol region), so less of that. One of my acquaintances there looks Japanese, like his mom, but his first language in Züri-düütsch (Zürich dialect of Swiss German), and then comes high German, Japanese and then English.

[monicaangela]

110. So do we call them Latin Europeans?

They surely can't be considered Latin Americans since they don't live in America. If they move from Europe to America, are they then considered Latin Americans? I suggest not. If they move to the United States or Canada, they are considered Spaniards, Italian, Portuguese, etc. If they move to Argentina, Mexico, or any other Spanish speaking nation south of the border, they miraculously become Latin American. Why is this?

[artislife]

115. They get to go by their nationalities

or sometimes we just call them Europeans.

Remember the mass labeling of people on this continent is born out of colonization. It is a "them" label in a Europeancentric world view.

[monicaangela]

129. I know Europeans in Puerto Rico, and Honduras

that are called European by the people in Puerto Rico and Honduras, but not by the Americans that visit the Island, they are still called Latinos even though they explain they were born in a European country. And, their children are never called German, or French, or Italian, etc., they are called Puerto Rican or Honduran.

[artislife]

130. I am talking from the viewpoint of the US. nt

[monicaangela]

136. There are varying viewpoints in the U.S.

as well. There are those that would automatically consider a person that says they come from Puerto Rico as Latino(a), no matter what color they are, and then if they profess to be something else, will secretly say they are trying to pass for something they are not. It's all a game as far as I am concerned. I am a human being, and thank God I don't have to say I'm passing when it comes to that. How horrible would that be, if someone said, I'm passing as a human being? Pretty terrible in my opinion, however, there are some individuals who one might accept the statement from.

The following is taken from an article posted by PBS, written by F. James Davis. I found it interesting. You might like it too:

"To be considered black in the United States not even half of one's ancestry must be African black. But will one-fourth do, or one-eighth, or less? The nation's answer to the question 'Who is black?" has long been that a black is any person with any known African black ancestry. This definition reflects the long experience with slavery and later with Jim Crow segregation. In the South it became known as the "one-drop rule,'' meaning that a single drop of "black blood" makes a person a black. It is also known as the "one black ancestor rule," some courts have called it the "traceable amount rule," and anthropologists call it the "hypo-descent rule," meaning that racially mixed persons are assigned the status of the subordinate group. This definition emerged from the American South to become the nation's definition, generally accepted by whites and blacks. Blacks had no other choice. As we shall see, this American cultural definition of blacks is taken for granted as readily by judges, affirmative action officers, and black protesters as it is by Ku Klux Klansmen."

So, as we can see, where the United States is concerned, if you have any African Blood, one drop even, you are considered black. I suppose this could also refer to the case of Latinos, a situation where a group needs to be kept apart, but just may not have that one drop of African blood that might help designate a group for them. As I stated in an earlier post, all ancestors of human beings can be traced back to Africa so I guess that makes us all black doesn't it. Again, it's a game that supports white privilege, a game I refuse to play. I found the PBS article fascinating, it covers a lot more than the paragraph I posted. Check it out.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/jefferson/mixed/onedrop.html

[artislife]

141. It is an interesting question.

Thank you for the link.

This is just my opinion and it is based on emotion, only..

I think if you feel the effects of your ethnicity, then it is your ethnicity.

My grandfather was born on the reservation in WI. His parents died by the time he was 7. He went to Indian School, which was pretty horrific in the scrubbing of tribal identity. (my brother found an article describing the intent and reality of Indian School--see the movie Rabbit Proof Fence-Au. it is pretty similar) My grandfather worked the summers on a local farm. He talked about being beaten if they didn't work hard enough. He ran away from school at the age of 16 and joined the Navy. This was 1919, Native Americans weren't citizens until 1924. He never went back. He was extremely abusive to my father who continued the cycle. When grandfather was close to 80, he lived in a vet home in Minneapolis. My brother decided they should take the day and go to Ashland WI and see the Rez. They weren't but 20 minutes in the car when my grandfather was shaking and crying. All he could say was "Bad, bad." My brother stopped the car and asked him if he wanted to go back to the Vet home. He did, and that was the end of that.

My family has felt the repercussions of being Native from the effects of self loathing and abuse that was instilled into my grandfather. I claim that ethnicity.

My grandmother came over on the train with her dad and brother when she was 3, from Mexico. She remembers her brother carrying her the 3 miles to the house they would live in. Being the only one of the family to learn and speak fluent English, she had a particular experience being Mexican in this society. Her Catholicism kept her married to a man that she would call "evil" on her deathbed. Her love and traditions are the one soft spot that I took comfort in my childhood.

My mother's people came from Ireland in 1848. The effects of famine, steerage passage and the NO IRISH allowed had all but faded. Only the drinking and the Catholicism stayed in my family dynamic . I really don't connect to that ethnicity...I just connect to the general whiteness of being in America.


Do you see what I mean? If a person feels the effects and unique experience of the ethnicity, then they are it. Being Black in this country will always, I feel, be attached to the horrific and vile history we, as a nation, has inflicted upon the race. Your family remembers the traditions and the emotions attached to those traditions from one side of the family? Claim the ethnicity. Society judges you, good or bad, claim the ethnicity. Doesn't matter, let it go and claim the generalness of it.

Funny how some will claim they are Heinz 57, but that usually just mean mixes of white on white. If they are Chinese and white mix, they then separate out the ethnicities.

Just my own thoughts.

[monicaangela]

148. I understand where you are coming from, and I believe we are saying similar things

Whatever ethnicity you believe you are, you have the right to own it. I also believe, that whatever color you choose to allow yourself to be perceived as is fine as well. There is history in this nation, that does not allow me to accept any category other than human, and as you say, if someone perceives you as white, you allow them to do that. As for me, although I am very fair skinned, I refuse to allow anyone to classify me. I also have Native American heritage in my family, and have heard the stories you recount. I have also read the true history of this nation. Have read The Souls of Black Folk, by W.E.B. DuBois, A Little Matter of Genocide by Ward Churchill, The Conquest of the New World by David E. Stannard, and many other books that delve into the history of this nation and this continent. After doing so, and learning how sociology has been formed, molded and mended to meet the fictional story of one race at the expense of others, I can't go along with playing the game. Hope you understand where I am coming from as well. Thanks for posting this comment, it gave me an opportunity to express my feelings, and I always enjoy that. Also too, I would like to thank you for your honesty and sincerity during the discussion on this entire thread, well done.

[artislife]

152. THANK YOU!

I am human, I try to react to other humans as human. But I know that society doesn't do that.

And some people do not want to be lumped in as just human.

The sense I get from the African American community on this board that doesn't like Bernie Sanders is that he hasn't addressed them as African Americans and their unique history and present day experience in this country. He treats them as "same".

This ignores the brutal reality that they are experiencing in their personal lives and in their communal lives.

It isn't just that community. I was talking once about different racess being the victors and the vanquished depending on the times and started listing the victims during history. One woman got so mad as I got to the 4th race and said "Jews, artislife, Jews. Why don't you remember the Jews?" She was Jewish and was angry that her race wasn't in my top 5 of most victimized...oops.

There is a lot that is wrapped up in who we think we are or how we perceive ourselves to be.

This has been a great exchange. I do appreciate it very, very much.

[monicaangela]

153. On Bernie Sanders

I am a Sanders supporter, so are many of my friends, we consider ourselves African American, even though we represent the full spectrum of the color game. Many African Americans have not had the opportunity to hear what Bernie has to say. I am hoping that as time goes by he will spend more time addressing all communities, AA, A, LA, all communities. If many of those that are supporting Clinton over Bernie would take the time to research the history on them they would find that Bernie Sanders has been fighting the battle for equal rights just as long as Hillary has, and doing a better job of it. Bernie and his wife have not caused near as much misery for the African American community as the Clintons have. I have printed out the following:

2008 Presidential Election, Race and Racism
Professor Vernellia Randall
Speaking Truth to Power!

Hillary, African Americans & The Myth of Bill Clinton
http://academic.udayton.edu/race/2008ElectionandRacism/Clinton/clinton03.htm

I try to get a copy to every African American, every person I have the opportunity to talk with about the upcoming primary election. So soon we forget is what I often say to them. I remember the 2008 campaign and how Bill and Hillary Clinton went ballistic when they realized they were NOT going to win the nomination. They started dissing Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., Nelson Mandela, President Obama, Barack Obama then, and many other African Americans. I could never vote for Hillary Clinton, and won't vote for her even if she does win the nomination. I guess I'll just have to write in Senator Sanders name as a protest vote. Check out the link if you have an opportunity, it is an eye opener.

[REP]

37. Many of those are of Spanish descent

As I said, many seem to think a Hispanic person is an "Indio" or "mestizo," even though a person born in Mexico, Central or South America may be of European descent.

[artislife]

57. I think the term Latino

Encompasses the shared history of coming north from Central and South America. My grandmother's family was indigenous and I doubt we have much Spanish blood in there. She looked indigenous but I know little about her family. My mother was proud to be of Irish descent and didn't like her in-laws at all. We were taught very little and only picked up what we knew by asking my grandparents. Later I went to care for her when I was 17 and one of my brothers lived with them both until her death. He is the one with the knowledge or what little of it that we know, I found out bits and pieces.


To be honest, Cubans don't seem really as Latino to me because how they are welcomed here into this country without the bias the rest of us gets. Perhaps now with the normalization between our two countries, they will also find themselves not wanted.

When President Obama was running in 2008, I read some AA writers who were saying he did not share the African American experience since his family hadn't been slaves. It was interesting to me, because of lot of the self identification of a race is with a shared experience as well as bloodlines or skin color or ethnicity.

My Irish side loves the suffering of the Irish. It is a badge of honor. It is very much a part of what they mean when they say they are Irish American.

So Latina means a woman whose people came north, were and are unwanted by a large swath of people here. The Mexican Catholism of my grandmother was different from the Irish Catholism of my mother's family. The Day of the Dead v Halloween, the importance of Mary...the saints...well the saints were pretty important to each side to be sure, just different ones.

I hope I am explaining myself here clearly.

[BumRushDaShow]

78. "When President Obama was running in 2008, I read some AA writers..."

Yes - Barack Obama represents powerful symbolism and irony (versus actual familial history) of what transpired here in the U.S. leading up to his election. The son of European-descended mother and African father. But the other symbolism of his family that is often left out of the equation when discussing his upbringing, is his step-father, who was Indonesian (i.e., "yellow" or Asian), and his half-sister is part Indonesian. And given he spent some years of his childhood in Indonesia, he was exposed to that 3rd "race" and is very cognizant of the Asian cultures living in Indonesia and the place where he was born and raised - Hawai'i.

But in the U.S., it doesn't matter where he came from, he's still considered a "n*gger" because of what he looks like.

[artislife]

79. YES!!!

It is the easy labeling that is made by most. It can either mean you are friend or foe...or it can mean nothing.

The issue is that the individual has no control over who they are being judged by or what they are being judged on and how that judgment will play out to their future. Whether it be an momentary future or a long lasting one.

[Major Hogwash]

121. Boom, bang, zap, pow!

That's it right there, all in 1 comment.
Obama was born of white and black parents, plus he was exposed to the Asian culture by his step-father, and to top it all off, he was raised for part of his youthful years in Hawaii, and that is why he is so damned smart to this very day.
This is why Obama seems to confound so many of the Republicans, and some of the Democrats, when he makes tough decisions on controversial issues.

[BumRushDaShow]

131. IMHO

he is an amalgam of the 3 races (culturally) when it comes to his approach. I expect he may not even be cognizant of this every time he switches a strategy to deal with a problem. But I would think that he really does come with a "bigger toolbox" of possibilities due to his background and upbringing...

[monicaangela]

112. I personally think

the term comes from the fact that Cristobal Colombo was supposed to be the person who discovered America. I think it is easy for some then to label every human being that existed in the southern part of America Hispanic or Latino(a) to more or less remove their rich heritage and put them beneath the heritage of their conqueror. In the U.S. Native Americans are very close to what many of their brothers and sisters to the south are, but they are not called Latino or Latina. For me this is just generalizing, and adapting words to give entire nations over to what some consider the person who discovered those nations...the person who committed genocide, who treated the people who were there before he came as less than human, exploited and took advantage of them and then after raping, robbing, and pillaging their nations, somehow came out of it smelling like a rose and decidedly IMHO of course became the father of their nations, as if every human being in our southern hemisphere thereafter had their blood infused with the blood of their Spanish conqueror.

[monicaangela]

137. That is true

they have to classify them as something, and let's face it, whites in the U.S. enjoy letting everyone know that if you profess to be from somewhere other than Europe, you are most likely not white, so unfortunately, they act as though migration never took place and everyone from the Americas are still Native Americans or in the case of those who acknowledge the fact that immigration did take place, they forget the fact that when the Spaniards came, so did the Africans, so Mestizo? Well that's a matter of opinion, I guess you could have some that are purely Native American and Spanish, but the majority are not, they also have African blood.

Terms used within Latin America used in reference to African heritage include mulato (African – white mixture), zambo/chino (indigenous – African mixture) and pardo (African – native – white mixture) and mestizo, which refers to an indigenous – European mixture in all cases except for in Venezuela, where it is used in place of "pardo". The term mestizaje refers to the intermixing or fusing of ethnicities, whether by mere custom or deliberate policy. In Latin America this happened extensively between all ethnic groups and cultures, but usually involved European men and indigenous and African women.

[smirkymonkey]

40. However there are a lot of South Americans who are mostly, if not all

European by background. Just like in the US, particularly in Brazil and Argentina there are a lot of German, Spanish and Italian immigrants, among others, who have not intermarried with indiginous tribes. Would they also be considered Latino/a?

[monicaangela]

111. If they come to the United States

with a passport from a Latin American nation, if they speak Spanish, and not their native tongue, if they have lived in Brazil or Argentina long enough, and consider themselves Brazilian or Argentine, then yes, arriving in the U.S. they would be considered Latino or Latina.

[smirkymonkey]

133. But someone else said that European Spaniards and Portuguese were not Latino/a.

So I was just wondering if someone was of 100% European descent (say half Spanish/half Portuguese), but was born in SA and spoke Spanish or Portuguese as their first language (like their European counterparts), are they still Latino/a? Would it be true if the exact same person w/ the exact same ethnic mix was born in NA or does the difference have to do with the language/culture they were raised in. It's kind of confusing.

[monicaangela]

138. If you are born in South America, you are considered Latino,

if they live in Europe they are not. Remember, a Latino is by definition a person who was born or lives in South America, Central America, or Mexico or a person in the U.S. whose family is originally from South America, Central America, or Mexico. Spain and Portugal are a part of mainland Europe and a Spaniard/Portuguese union in either of those two countries would not make the person a Latino, no matter what language they speak.

[Chitown Kev]

53. Don't forget the Caribbean

Puerto Ricans and Cubans are also Latinos although Caribbean-descended Latinos do have a bit of a different culture from those Latinos descended from Mexico and Central/South America.

[msrizzo]

62. Yeah we have a very different culture.

Puerto Rico, for example, has an Afro-Caribbean culture, stronger in some parts of the island than in others but pretty well infused throughout. But when I was growing up we were told that the Taino Indians were extinct. However, recent genetic and archeological research has shown that Tainos did not die off but were more likely assimilated into the culture and the typical DNA of modern Puerto Ricans contains about 15% Taino genes and includes genes from ancestors from South America. I believe that the Taino genes were strong on my father's side of the family, which my mother's side was probably an even split of European/African genes. The research of Carlos Bustamante lab at Stanford is delving into this and I would try to summarize it more but fear that I would get it wrong.

[1939]

80. For those Tainos that married Spaniards (or at least had children by them)

Those off-spring would have inherited the genes from their fathers which through evolution had built up some immunity to the diseases of the Eurasian/African disease pool allowing the Taino genes to survive the great die-off. I would imagine the Dominican Republic population as well shows the Taino genes.

[monicaangela]

109. Yes I know,

my mother was born and raised up to the age of 14 in Humacao. Her mother was Irish and her father was Afro-Indio or African/Indian heritage, she was always considered a Latina from the moment she arrived in New York. In the U.S., we tend to call anyone who comes from south of the border, speaks Spanish, and looks like what we consider to be Latin American a Latino or Latina it appears, regardless of their heritage or cultural background.

[a la izquierda]

101. Yep, I know that.

I was asking the person to whom I responded to clarify.

[monicaangela]

113. Oops! Forgive my interuption.

[a la izquierda]

119. No worries

[artislife]

66. I have to thank you for this thoughtful post. nt

[pinboy3niner]

7. Brown

That's the color ascribed to Latinos, distinguishing them from "blacks." Even though many Latinos are white and many are black.

I remember the popular slurs (besides "wetback&quot being "beaner" and "greaser."

[pnwmom]

8. On census forms Latinos are allowed to choose hispanic white or hispanic black --

as I understand it.

[BumRushDaShow]

15. "If not white, then..."

It's a convoluted system of "racism/white supremacy" that has been put in place over the centuries. To understand it, you must free your mind and accept, and understand that depending on the circumstances, the "rules" are the "rules" and the "rules" can change on a dime.

This is the heart of the "one drop" rule that had once been in place de jure and is still in place de facto. The case of "Plessey v Ferguson" resulted in an attempt to narrow down "race" in its own bizarre way, as Mr. Plessey could easily "pass for white" -



but was found by the SC not to be, because he was an "octoroon" (1/8th black), and was thus subject to all the discriminatory segregationist laws in effect in the 1890s.

And so the "code" was that if you "looked white" (could "pass&quot , you could go about that existence... But if you were found not to be (by the PTB's convoluted faux-scientifically random reasoning, including how far back you had a non-white ancestor or going by a surname), then the "rules" changed suddenly and accordingly.

And in order to maintain power, another non-black POC could be temporarily "elevated" to "honorary white" status in order to cause discord among the minorities and suppress the black (note this tactic was deployed more formally in South Africa during apartheid with the creation of the "coloured" classification). Thus you will find during certain periods of this nation's history, both Asians and Spanish-speaking (white or non-white) folks, were often accepted as "white" temporarily, and accorded certain privileges that blacks were not accorded.

In fact, the convolution even extended to defining those from certain countries abroad, including some on the continent of Africa (those who were non-Europeans but resided in a place possessing grandeur like Egypt that the European wanted to take credit for) and the Indian subcontinent (where some of these folks were likewise designated as "Caucasian", which has been used interchangeably as "white&quot .

However if the power structure perceived itself as being under threat, then these same groups were ejected from their temporary status and were targeted for ridicule as much as the black individual.

The "majority" population in the U.S. did not have to know these rules, but those who it impacted had to burn it into their very souls.

[monicaangela]

38. Hear, hear!!

[Beacool]

35. Some who are born here may not consider themselves to be white.

But try telling that to someone from Argentina or Uruguay. Argentina is even more white than the U.S.

Argentina white (mostly Spanish and Italian) 97%, mestizo (mixed white and Amerindian ancestry), Amerindian, or other non-white groups 3%

U.S.A white 79.96%, black 12.85%, Asian 4.43%, Amerindian and Alaska native 0.97%, native Hawaiian and other Pacific islander 0.18%, two or more races 1.61% (July 2007 estimate)

http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/People/Ethnic-groups

[smirkymonkey]

94. We have a lot of South Americans working at our company with Spanish, Portuguese, Italian and German

last names who look as European as any North American or any full blooded European, yet they are classified by the company as "Hispanic" since they are from South America. I sometimes wonder if it's a language thing as far as the company is concerned.

[Beacool]

107. I'm sure that it bothers them.

It's insulting and ignorant that they are denied their race because they happen to be from South America. Why is it so hard for people in the U.S. to realize that nationality has nothing to do with race? IMO, it's a not so subtle form of racism. As long as they were born in a Latin American country, then they can be blue eyed and blond, but will still be considered of a different race.

It's crazy.......

[Comrade Grumpy]

67. In Texas, they used the term "Anglos" to differentiate between Hispanic and non-Hispanic whites.

I think of Hispanic as a cultural term more than a racial one. There are black, brown, and white ones, and everything in between.

There are a lot of brown people. Mixtures of indigenous American and European blood, especially in Mexico, Central America, and the Andean countries. If I had to picture a Hispanic person, I'd see a Mexican dude, but that's really just a stereotype.

[1939]

81. In Mexico

Persons of predominately European descent are called "Castillian"

[Zorra]

5. Recommend. nt

[Kalidurga]

9. Two of my children are "passing"....

I didn't know this until a couple of years ago. I don't consider them Hispanic or Latina, they are my children. So, I never had the talk and I have no idea what that talk would have been because well are they supposed to go up to people they barely know and say "My mom is white but my dad's mom was a Mexican Indian and his dad was Cuban, my mom's grandfather was part German only not really I mean his family had been in England for centuries so he's probably mostly English, same with her grandmother, I think we still have some relatives in New York state.

So anyway, my youngest daughter works at SA and her dad comes in and she tells a coworker that is her dad and she was all like no way, you are not Mexican. Needless to say we are all confused.

[msrizzo]

10. What do you guys mean by "passing?"

I'm Latina and I LOOK white but I don't pass for white, I make it very clear to everyone that I am Latina and if Donald Trump doesn't consider me white then why should I? But if you mean that white people think you are white and treat you like you are white, then I understand perfectly what you mean. Happens all the time. And not only do I get white privilege because of that but I also get an earful of white racism too when some racists feel comfortable letting it fly because they assume I am white

[Bad Thoughts]

18. We who pass are special witnesses to racism

About 80% of the time people assume that I am Jewish (which I am partially) or Italian (which I am not), and they will lower their guard and let loose with the racism. I usually try to convince them of the error of their views before shaming them, revealing that I am also Latino.

[artislife]

20. ^^^This.....

My grandmother came here "illegally" and married a Native American man. Their history shaped my father and his choices. My brothers and I were formed out of those. We all reacted differently but the society has reacted differently to us.

I have sat on buses listened to racist spew. One of the reasons I left So California was the crap I heard after the riots following the Rodney King verdict.

[msrizzo]

31. Ugh

I can imagine, that must have been terrible.

[Beacool]

30. The two are not necessarily separate.

You can be white and Latina. Why do you feel that it cannot be so? There's no such thing as a Hispanic or Latino race, it's an ethnic group. Caucasians in the U.S. and Canada are not the only white people in the American continent.

[msrizzo]

36. Color is irrelevant to me.

I am Puerto Rican and in my family we are literally all shades. I just happened to come out light skinned (very, I always have to get the lightest make up shade) but if my family isn't white then how can I be? The White culture defines "white" and I have always assumed that the same standards that they use for African Americans apply to me. And I'm cool with that. Have always been cool with that. It's what I mean when I say I don't pass. I am not responsible for what people think I am.

[Beacool]

42. You may be Puerto Rican, but that does not negate that you can also be Caucasian.

If that's your racial make-up, then there's no "passing". My point is that it's the racist American culture that tries to grind into people that if they are Hispanic they are not white. That's just plain ignorant. You can be Latina and be Caucasian, Black, Asian, etc. One thing has nothing to do with another.

[msrizzo]

43. I'm sure you can be white and Hispanic.

I am just saying that I am not white just because I look white or is that how we define race? My parents and my biological family, aunts, uncles, and grandparents were clearly not white if white is defined as just having white ancestors. If I'm white, so is Barack Obama, lol. But Latinos are very diverse and yes some of them may be white, as defined by white people. Myself I don't concern myself with the definiton. I consider myself racially mixed and 100% Latina.

[Beacool]

46. Caucasians are commonly known as "white".

Caucasians are of European origin. Therefore, if your ancestors were European, then you are considered a Caucasian. Plenty of Europeans settled in Latin America. That's why a person can still be white and Latino at the same time.

Barack Obama is not white, neither is he black. He is bi-racial, as his father was a black man from Africa and his mother an American of European descent.

[msrizzo]

47. I know all that, I guess I am not being clear.

I have biological relatives who are black, and Indian, and yes some were probably from Europe but not in the lifetime of any of my family. But I look extremely white. I am the lightest shade of clinique makeup. I know many Puerto Ricans with the same diversity as our family. I guess I could call myself Caucasian but it wouldn't be an accurate description so why should I? I only started this discussion because I was trying to figure out what the OP meant by "passing" because if you are a white Latino with 100% European ancestry, then you are not "passing," you are white.

[Beacool]

50. Exactly, if you're 100% of European descent you are Caucasian.

And also Hispanic, if born in Latin America.

[artislife]

63. I see your question about what I meant

What I mean by passing, in my experience is that most White people think I am purely White. Most non-Whites can see there is something else there.

Why is this even an OP? Because when I go into a situation that is predominately White, nothing happens. There are no preconceived ideas of who I am, what I am doing there, how I got there and what my character is. Nothing.

People also can say the racists little rants in front of me, thinking I just might feel the same since I am White like them.

Case in point. I met a woman who had very dark hair, dark eyes and was just a striking woman. She told me her name was Yolanda and quickly added that she was not Mexican. It was a networking event. Was I to tell her, well even if she was Mexican it was cool because I am part Mexican? I didn't say anything, but my name. It is not hispanic because it wasn't the paternal side of the family that the lineage came from.

I often think about my own cowardliness at that moment and rationalize that I wasn't going to shame her. But she shamed herself in that small exchange by showing her prejudice.

But on the other side the coin, I often get questions from other minorities on what my background is. They can see it, usually.

I have traveled to other countries and I was snubbed in a shop by an Italian communist. He hated Americans. Then my Italian friends said I was part Native American (Mexican grandma married Ojibwa Native American) and he loved me. Race means something to every single person on this planet. It just does.

[msrizzo]

68. Thanks for the clarification.

Yes, I know what you mean and I have experienced the exact same thing. And trust me, I understand about the feelings of cowardice. It's just a feeling in the pit of your stomach when people start up with the shit. I used to be afraid to say anything, then I went to the opposite extreme and made angry retorts which just left me feeling bad too.

It's a no-win situation the last few times I have just said, "I'm sorry you feel that way." I figure if they think I am a white person calling them out on their racism it might actually have a bigger impact!

But I have the added problem that my husband is African American so I get the double whammy of people spewing shit and even using the n-word. I can't tell you how much I hate it. I don't ask for these people to show their ass to me and I don't want to see it.

[artislife]

71. Yeah. I hate racists rants

I hate that there is this vileness that is aimed like a semi automatic weapon that doesn't care who gets wiped out by it.

Love to you and yours!!

[msrizzo]

72. You too.

And thanks for starting this conversation. Important stuff.

[monicaangela]

128. Barack Obama is both black and white

There is a little thing called Melanin that determines skin, hair, and eye color. Persons who are deficient in melanin appear lighter than persons who are melanin rich. Barack Obama was blessed with the richness of the melanin his father possessed. Bi-racial is not a race, it is an explanation of the heritage of a person, in this case meaning his mother is considered white, and his father is considered black. Races are assumed to be distinguished by skin color, facial type, etc. However, the scientific basis of racial distinctions is very weak. Scientific studies show that racial genetic differences are weak except in skin color. The President inherited his fathers skin color so he is categorized as black...however in my opinion, race is just a game...the white race...people with light skin, the brown race, people with skin with a bit more melanin, the black race, people with a lot of melanin in their skin. If you go by this, the President would be closer to Latino than black, but we do have our game to play don't we.

[Beacool]

134. Your last sentence.

I have no clue what the heck you're talking about.

[monicaangela]

139. Have you seen the President in person?

his skin is much lighter than what most consider black, the hue of his skin is more like that of a Latino.

[Beacool]

142. A Latino?

The whole point of all the comments is that Latinos are of various races. To me he looks like what he is, a man with a Caucasian mother and an African father. There are Latinos who have the same racial make-up and therefore do have similar skin tone. So yes, he could be Latino.

[monicaangela]

154. He looks to you

like what you perceive him to be because you know his history. My point is that just as you say Latinos are of various races, so are African Americans and Caucasians, if you look at the skin tone only. There are African Americans that appear white, because of forced sexual relations by slave owners, Europeans that have dark skin, but deny any African heritage and the game goes on. I guess what I am saying, is if you don't know what a person professes to be, or have no idea what their heritage is, there is no way you can look at them and say, oh, that person has a black father and a white mother etc.

I guess I missed something, or didn't get the proper translation, I thought the whole point of all the comments was that Latinos like all other races come in different hues/skin tones when it comes to color and that after much deliberation the reason for the difference in color is obvious.

[Beacool]

155. OK, in that we agree.

[BumRushDaShow]

51. You hit on the problem that we have all struggled with for centuries

Some else defining us and having the "power" to enforce those "definitions" despite our battles for this sort of thing to stop.

The one discussion that is endlessly debated within the black community is pointing to other ethnic groups/nationalities "of color" and how they demand that they "not to be defined" by the PTB in the U.S., and how the black community can't seem to do be able to effectively do the same. And it's a multi-pronged problem - mostly because many "black Americans" (as in those who trace ancestry in the U.S. pre-Emancipation), have little or no knowledge of their original ethnic groups. And this is due to the nature of the enslavement and the purposeful mixing of not only African ethnic groups that mostly originated along the 16,000 mile West Coast of Africa (as well as from countries inland from the coast), but the admixtures with the native/indigenous populations here in the U.S. in many locations, and admixtures with the European-descended slaveholders themselves.

The early ("mainstream AA&quot attempts at even embracing the African continent at all, had activists try to pick a nation that may have been known to have provided the most "chattel" in the trade. But this still leaves out those marched to those West African ports from Central Africa, Southern, and sometimes even East Africa, as well as those who were forced to inter-breed (or who out of love or necessity, established a relationship) across ethnicities once on a plantation. So AAs really are in a no-man's land thanks to this system, although recent DNA-genealogical testing has been helping to narrow down those ethnic origins (at least as much as can be ascertained based on the ethnic sampling that is used for comparison).

[msrizzo]

69. I'm a big proponent of DNA-genealogical testing.

Not only does it show us our history, but it can be very helpful in biomedical research. Also it's a good argument for encouraging our brown and black kids to go into science. The leaders in this research are POC.

[artislife]

70. This is a larger question, yes.

I love watching the videos of African Americans getting their DNA results. It means something different from most of the other DNA results. There is a saying by some Native American tribe, because very rarely is anything attributed to a specific one--except the Lakotas--but I digress, they call this earth experience The Great Mystery.

It must be for AA, adoptees and other's who have lost their ancestral ties.

In high school, I had to do my genealogy for a research class.

Try being part of the unrecorded. I got to great grandparents only on the Mexican and Native American sides. The Irish, we got back to 1848 and coming from county Kerry to landing in North Carolina.

The teacher didn't really believe me that I tried hard enough. Who were my grandmother's grandparents? I do know that my Ojibwa blood relatives are thought to have lived on the Great Lakes for 10,000 years. And still they didn't farm. They just got the wild rice and the squashes and mushrooms that grew willdly,fished a bit and caught small animals. I don't know why, but I love that.

[BumRushDaShow]

76. A bit OT but...

The whole idea of "genealogy" really got a boost when "Roots" aired in 1977. I was in high school then and the idea of we AAs tracing our African ancestors was previously anathema because of the expectation that the continual mixing of the generations through plantation sales, random inter-marriages (or better, joinings), and acts of rape, would mean an impossible task. But oddly enough, because slaves were considered "property" with a "cost", there were some meticulous records kept by many of the owners, sellers, and shippers (as Alex Haley found out) and any records that survived the centuries offered a wealth of information to at least get some side of the family traced.

The Griot of West Africa (and equivalent in other cultures around the world) kept the "history" and genealogy of the clan/tribe (and was specially trained and groomed by a successor), and if one could find that individual in societies that still maintain them, then whole lines of a family could be discovered. I have posted elsewhere that the sequel miniseries "Roots: The Next Generations", was as powerful as the first miniseries in terms of showing the AA existence here post-Civil War through to the 1970s, and notably the discussion of tracing one's "origins" through records along with oral histories... with the rare individual having the resources, being able to trace at least one line back to a clan.

(it's a shame that the above video excerpt at the conclusion of that 2nd miniseries just got me in tears once more as it illustrates just how "lost and disconnected" so many of us are)

[VA_Jill]

12. On the other hand

my daughter is white and passes for Latina. She is married to a Puerto Rican (Nuyorican) man and blends right into his family. But there's Latina and Latina. My son went to school with a girl who was technically considered Latina because her mother was Argentinian....but her mom was the daughter of German immigrants to Argentina and her dad was an American of German and Scotch-Irish descent. And my daughter went to school with our pastor's kids who were definitely Latina..their dad was half Puerto Rican, plus part Cuban on his mom's side and their mother was straight-up Caucasian. Both girls looked Latina and embraced it. All 3 of the aforementioned were good students and got scholarships that were set aside for Hispanic students.

[Beacool]

26. Argentina was a very wealthy nation until WWII. It is a nation of immigrants, like the U.S.

"As with other areas of new settlement such as the United States, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Brazil and Uruguay, it is considered that Argentina is a country of immigrants. Argentines usually refer to the country as a 'crisol de razas' (crucible of races, or melting pot).

During the 18th and 19th centuries especially, Argentina was the country with the second biggest immigration wave in the world, with 6.6 million, second only to the USA in the numbers of immigrants received (27 millions) and ahead of such other areas of new settlement like Canada, Brazil and Australia.

Strikingly, at those times, the national population doubled every two decades. This belief is endured in the popular saying 'los argentinos descienden de los barcos' (Argentines descend from the ships). Therefore, most Argentines are descended from the 19th- and 20th-century immigrants of the great immigration wave to Argentina (1850–1955), with a great majority of these immigrants coming from diverse European countries. The majority of these European immigrants came from Italy and Spain. The majority of Argentines descend from multiple European ethnic groups with an Italian majority (55% of Argentines have Italian origins), followed by Spanish plurality. An estimated 17% of the population also have French origins, and 8% descend from Germans."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argentina

Therefore, your son's friend is Caucasian and also Hispanic.

[BumRushDaShow]

45. And thus you have Jorge Bergoglio

a son of Italian immigrants (both parents) born and raised in Argentina. He is widely touted as "Latino" but is an Italian-Argentinian. If anything (per another poster in this thread) he would be a "Latin" versus a "Latino", although the language he was raised with having been born in Argentina, is Spanish (and I expect most certainly Italian given his parents' origins). The two languages are similar enough to get by on knowing one and generally understanding the other.

Pope Francis Says "I'm Italian" - Does He Identify as Latino?
By Sugey Palomares • March 20, 2013 • 11:09am
Getty Images

As the first Latin American pontiff in history, Pope Francis became an instant favorite among most Latino communities. Since taking power, Jorge Bergoglio has made it clear that spreading the word of God throughout Latin America is part of his agenda. Within a week of getting sworn in, Pope Francis has already met with Argentinean President Cristina Fernández de Kirchner, who he previously clashed with in regards to gay marriage and abortion. He also plans on meeting with Brazilian President Dilma Rousseff and Chilean President Sebastián Piñera in the near future.

Despite his Latin pride, Pope Francis recently called out his European ancestry in an interview. "When we get together as a family we have big meals. We're an Italian family from the north of Italy so our traditions are strong. We eat a lot of pasta, capelletis, stuffed calamari," the leader told People. Does this mean he doesn't identify as Latino?

The fact is that Bergoglio's dad was an Italian immigrant and his mother's parents were also from northern Italy. When it comes to race in Argentina, the notion of a 'melting pot' society was not welcomed until recently. According to several reports, the population is over 90 percent white and mostly of Spanish and Italian descent. Due to political and racial paradigms, the mestizo culture wasn't as celebrated and marginalized throughout the country's history.

As the article titled, "Blackness in Argentina" puts it, "In Mexico, Brazil, and elsewhere, twentieth-century nationalist crafted ideologies of mestizaje that broke with European and North American models by celebrating the indigenous or African as crucial elements in a new racial mixture. Yet most Argentine intellectuals rejected this sort of hybridity and instead constructed national identities that were at least as exclusionary as those produced by their North American counterparts."

<snip>

http://www.latina.com/lifestyle/news/pope-francis-italian-latino-roots

The above is interesting as it is in contrast to what happened in the former-Portuguese colony of Brazil. It's also interesting that Germany wasn't mentioned as a bunch of Germans also fled there.

[Beacool]

48. We have a habit, a bad habit IMO, to place everyone in a niche.

Argentina is a country that is "whiter" than the U.S. Yet, in all my years there, if someone were to ask them 'What are you?' they would respond that they were Argentine. If you would continue to push and ask about their ethnicity, then they would explain that their parents or grandparents came from Italy, Spain, Germany, etc. Here, we always answer that question by saying that we are Irish, Scottish, etc. It's funny......

Pope Francis is a typical Argentine. His parents were Italian immigrants. Half of the last names in the Buenos Aires telephone book are Italian.

BTW, Argentine food is European in origin. They don't eat rice & beans, plantains and other fare that it's considered here to be "Spanish" food. They eat pasta on Sundays and a lot of beef. They produce some of the best beef in the world. They have afternoon tea like the British, have breakfast like the French, lunch like the Americans and dinner like the Spaniards. They have excellent bread and fine wines (along with Chile they are the two major wine producing areas in Latin America).

I absolutely adore Buenos Aires, it's not called the "Paris of the South" for nothing. It's one sophisticated and beautiful city. The Teatro Colón is rated as the third best opera house in the world and I went there as often as I could. They also have more theaters than any other Spanish speaking country. I would go to the theater often too.

[BumRushDaShow]

52. Yup yup and yup.

This sort of hierarchical defining of people, was done for a specific reason and it was to hold power. The "definers" may change over the millenia and who they chose to define has varied.... But such a tactic has been a scourge on every attempt to having humans recognize other humans as perhaps "different" (as in culturally - language, dress, rituals, food, etc., or perhaps by physical appearance) but they really are "no different".

[Beacool]

55. Exactly, it's racist.

Denying that Hispanics or Latinos (NEVER Spanish, unless born in Spain) could also be Caucasians is a way of making them different from the rest of "us". When I travel I notice how more culturally aware are most people than we are here. In other words, we are one ignorant country and arrogant to boot. We think that were are better than anyone else. That's why it seems to always surprise us when people may not want to emulate our lifestyle. That ignorance has infused our foreign policy. It is quite presumptuous to assume that every nation wants to be another U.S. Remember Cheney's remark that the Iraqis were going to throw flowers in our path, so grateful they would be for our invasion of their country? Well, that didn't go according to plan.....

[BumRushDaShow]

65. For those of us who live in the larger cities

and who are exposed to the multiple Spanish-speaking ethnic groups, we learned this at a very early age - you can have not only "black" Hispanics or "white Hispanics", but "asian Hispanics" (e.g., Filipinos) as well. Here in Philly, the largest Spanish-speaking ethnic group is Puerto Rican and probably 2nd is Cuban and at one time, we had many Filipinos here as well (I grew up with some who lived up the street and we all played together) - although there is a growing Dominican population and a large Mexican population just outside of the city in Delaware County (originally brought in for the mushroom industry). Nowadays, there is a large migration from Central America (Guatemalan and El Salvadorian thanks to the destabilization of their countries).

Knowing this has always had us scratching our heads when the designation of "Hispanic" was suddenly thrown into the "race" mix, with attempts to insist that an apples to apples comparison could be made between "black" and "Hispanic" or "white" and "Hispanic" when no such comparison could be made being that it was apples to pears. And to counter the head-scratches, the term "brown" was adopted (although "brown" was never defined as a "race" by "the definers" outside of being a color variation of "black&quot . And this underscores the ridiculousness of "the system", notably because all of the Spanish-speaking ethnic groups and nationalities are aware of the differences between themselves... And although a number might also like to harness the "power" of being a part of a single large "language group" with similar interests, many also experience the racist after-effects of their physical appearance if it doesn't fit the U.S.-defined "normative".

[artislife]

73. Yup nt

[Beacool]

105. Yes, I agree.

[a la izquierda]

16. In Mexico...

I'm normally mistaken for a Mexican of Spanish descent.
I'm Irish/Italian/Spanish-American. Probably some other stuff too.

Most people from the US do not understand race in Latin America at all, unless they are from (and I mean born and raised) in Latin America. It is the hardest concept for me to teach to college students. Race and ethnicity, like political labels, are very different in other parts of the world.

[NutmegYankee]

19. Hispanic comes from "Hispania", the roman name for the Iberian Pennisula.

People get into this debate at times, but if you are Spanish or Portuguese in ethnicity, you are of European origin and by definition "White".

[Beacool]

24. Hear, hear!!!

I always found it ignorant that in the U.S. Hispanics are considered a separate race. Hispanic is an ethnic group, not a race. There is no such thing as a Hispanic race.

[Beacool]

22. Being "Latina" does not mean that a person can't also be "white".

Ethnicity and race are two totally separate things.

As for the video, I am glad that her sister in law stepped in to point out the unfairness of the situation and brought awareness into the unfairness of the cashier's treatment of this lady.

[Cleita]

27. Me too. Not only in my looks but my surnames, both maiden and married, are

Northern European. I have shocked Anglo colleagues when they hear me speak Spanish for the first time although I have never tried to hide my ethnicity.

I agree with you about fighting white privilege and have always tried to do all I could to advance Hispanics and other ethnic minorities among the white people I know.

[KentuckyWoman]

32. Interesting you qualified your post with your race.

And I'm glad it's getting some attention.

Unfortunately I've seen dozens of similar posts by whites calling attention to one incident sink like a rock.

Thanks again for the post. I agree one incident at a time as soon as it's in our focus be clear to all involved that racism is unacceptable.

*************

One nit pick.... white privilege would be someone who should be punished who isn't because of their race. In all of the cases where non-whites are treated unfairly is just simple racism. Everyone should be treated as well as whites. Everyone. Calling that white privilege telegraphs to the powers that be that we should be treated everyone poorly and I don't think that's the goal.

[artislife]

75. Yes, we should all be seen as humans

We should all be treated with respect and kindly.


We aren't, but we must make the perpetrators know that their actions are no longer tolerable.

[monicaangela]

33. I have family memebers

who could pass for white, but refuse to do so. My family is really multicultural and just about every hue is represented within our immediate family. Most of us don't bother classifying ourselves for others when it comes to race. If you perceive me as white and don't bother to ask me, then that's your problem. If I am perceived as black or Hispanic, again, that is your prerogative. If you ask me what nationality I am, I will gladly tell you I am African American, because that is the title I most prefer and the people I most look up to. And too, somewhere during my education I learned that if we take the time to actually learn about race and nationality etc., we find that we are all from Africa, so that means everyone in America is African American.

There is only one race. The human race. Don't for personal gain pretend. When we stop allowing race or ethnicity to be a factor in how we are treated in this world, we bring the world closer to the understanding that there is nothing different about any of us beneath the skin.

"THE GENOGRAPHIC CREED
The creed holds that every single non-African on the planet is descended from one or possibly two small bands of humans who made it on rafts and skins across the Red Sea at the narrows of the Bab el-Mandeb, or Gate of Tears, about 50,000 years ago. We are a more maritime species than we ever supposed, even if we keep close to the shore. These early humans, this Mayflower on foot, scavenged shellfish along the tideline and in the rock pools, increasing their range by a few kilometres a year. Within 5,000-10,000 years, without much need for adaptation, they had worked their way around India and across the land bridges that then linked Asia with a short sea crossing to Australia.

Some 99% of the human genome is shuffled from one birth to the next. The Genographic Project traces the 1% of the genome which is not shuffled—mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) through the maternal line and the Y-chromosome through the paternal. These jokers in the pack allow geneticists to work back to our common ancestors. Our mtDNA appears to coalesce in a single woman, who lived on the African savannah 150,000 years ago."

http://moreintelligentlife.com/content/jm-ledgard/exodus

[msrizzo]

39. I agree with you completely.

My family is similar and I feel the same way about race, it is a social construct.

[3catwoman3]

60. With most things being done on-line...

...these days, I don't get much chance to do this anymore, but I used to take a certain satisfaction in this - when filling out any sort of paper work that required/asked for race, I would draw in my own square and label it "human."

[msrizzo]

64. Cool...

Back when your only options were Black or White, I always used to choose Other.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

34. If I'm of German or Italian heritage and I'm from Argentina am I not white?

Assuming everyone from a latin american country isn't white, is like assuming everyone from the US is of the same race/ethnicity.

[Beacool]

44. Thank you for pointing out the ignorance.

My father was a diplomat and I went to high school in Buenos Aires. I attended a school run by the Sisters of Mercy (Irish congregation that has been in Argentina since the mid 19th century). The other girls looked whiter than me. They were all children or grandchildren of Irish and mostly had light eyes and hair. My mother's mother was from Ireland, but my father's parents were from Northern Spain and I have fair skin with brown eyes and chestnut hair.

It drives me nuts to see how ignorant were are in this country about other societies.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

59. Sadly in this country everyone who speaks spanish = brown.

Forget the fact that Argentina is arguably the whitest country in the world, and the last two presidents have had German surnames.

[Beacool]

106. Yes, we seem to wear our ignorance as a badge of honor.

It's depressing.......

[monicaangela]

114. Perception...that's all it is. If you are of whatever heritage,

and are lacking the proper amount of melanin in your skin, you can be considered white. All albinos are considered white before we delve into their cultural background. Being white is a perception, a way in which those who enjoy the privilege weed out those who don't. If the power structure were different, and people of color were in power I'm sure a lot of those who are proud to say they are white, would be tanning a lot more than they do now, dyeing their hair if they happen to be blonde or very light brown, and declaring their allegiance to whatever group happens to be calling the shots for the moment. Perception ForgoTheConsequence, it's all perception. If you believe you are white, then you're white. Simple as that.

[Boomer]

41. I pass for Anglo, too

"White" really is a useless term when you get into the intricacies of Hispanic language mixed with Latino culture, ethnicity, history and geography.

My mother's family is from Mexico, and they're largely German and Spanish in ancestry which makes them White. There's also some native Indian blood in there, but from a region in Mexico where the Indians are lighter skinned, so not really "White" but they passed on fewer genetic traits that would be noticed by racists.

My Mestizo (mixed-race) grandparents and aunts were racist themselves, however. They deplored seeing a light-skinned Mexican married to a dark-skinned Indio. I suspect they were precariously gripping onto their slightly more privileged social class and were motivated to put as much distance between themselves and full-blooded Indians -- at the bottom of the ladder -- as they could. These were attitudes from the 1950s and 60s that I witnessed personally as a child, and I hope they've substantially changed since then as my grandparents' generation passed away.

I look non-Hispanic. People assume I'm non-Hispanic, even with an Hispanic first name. Thankfully, I've never been put in a situation of hearing the White people around me insult Hispanics. Not sure how I've managed that, given the harrowing accounts other people report, but I suppose it helps that I'm a bit of a social recluse.

[Nye Bevan]

74. What makes folk think you are Anglo,

as opposed to being of Scandinavian, German, or Irish descent?

[YoungDemCA]

84. "Anglo" is often used as a synonym for "non-Hispanic white" in some parts of the US

In the Southwest United States, "Anglo", short for "Anglo American", is used as a synonym for non-Hispanic Whites; that is, all European Americans (except Latin Americans), most of whom speak the English language, even those who are not necessarily of British or English descent.[16] If language is taken into consideration the term "Anglo-American" also excludes Franco-Americans such as the Cajuns of Louisiana, but would include them when language is excluded as a criterion. The term "Anglo" has been regularly used by mainstream media such as the Los Angeles Times usually in broad reference to non-Hispanic, English-speaking white Americans of European descent.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo#United_States

I suspect that that is the way in which Boomer is using that term, but I could be wrong.

[Boomer]

87. Thanks, YoungDemCa

Yes, that's exactly the meaning of "Anglo" as I've heard it used all my life, growing up in Texas. Black/White was the term used about race division, but Hispanic/Anglo was about the divide in ethnicity.

It never occurred to me this was regional, but this is first time I've had someone challenge my use of the term.

[Nye Bevan]

93. Interesting. Not being from the Southwest I wasn't familiar with this usage.

I guess this usage is never going to catch on where there are lots of Irish Americans as many of those folk would consider "Anglo" to be highly offensive.

[DustyJoe]

103. anglo or gringo in my area

I have lived in New Mexico since 1955, it is currently 60% hispanic-latino. I am considered white, but have hispanic blood and a hispanic last name. I love to listen to the newer South American arrivals talk about the anglo or gringo in public in spanish and
love to shock them by asking them where they're from and how they like NM in spanish. My only complaint is the mangling of true spanish language into the new 'spanglish' mix, but that is the direction things are going. I am sure that immigrants from Spanish-Europe areas or South America like Argentina come to NM not expecting to hear very hard to understand spanglish and feel as they are in a different ethnic mix than a mainly hispanic state and need to learn the local dialect.

[Bad Thoughts]

116. You are probably more "native" than you think

I, too, am part Nuevomexicano. Members of my family did the dna tests for ancestry, and they were surprised how much they were related to Native American groups. Growing up, many of them were told that they were "Spanish," in order to distinguish them from incoming Mexicans. It makes sense: few women migrated from Spain or New Spain to New Mexico in the 17th century. And we aren't Mexicans in the same sense. However, most are less purely Spanish than they think.

[artislife]

118. Native Americans are the indigenous people

My father was completely indigenous because Mexican is a nationality and Native American is a bloodline. Both bloodlines are indigenous people of the North and South American continent.

I think we have a lot in common with this group
https://www.facebook.com/mongolianmusic/videos/10155991173680161/

Fascinating and haunting video

[azmom]

49. I'm 100% mexican and damn proud of it too.

My daughter was made in the USA with mexican parts.

[Bad Thoughts]

56. Awesome! She must be beautiful. eom.

[azmom]

58. My baby is a Bernie fan too.

[link:|

[DonCoquixote]

54. I am Puerto Rican who passes for "white"

Both my parents are from the island, but my mom has skin that looks outright Norse, and my father is about the same shade is Halle Berry or Beyonce, though his long nose tends to make people mistake him for Arab or Amerindian. I have run into many times when my white firends would talk about Puerto Ricans, although to be fair, the ones they thought of were what we call "Tregena" the sort of very tan image most people associate.

However, the fact is, race is very often assigned by the society, regardless of the culture we have in our homes. A lot of people say Barack Obama should not be considered black. Yes, Barack was raised by the white side of his family, but all you need to do is watch the umpteen signs that tell him to "go home to Kenya" and you know that no matter how he talks or walks, he will be considered black enough to be hated and killed. Those of us "pass for white" latinos always know that the same people who "like" you will suddenly turn on you the minute they think you have anything to do with "them" and yes, we do keep that in mind when we select who we truly consider friends.

There is a saying in Spanish "Y tu abuela donde?" When someone puts up very fancy airs, and tries to impress you with how high class they are, the questions is asked "and where is your grandmother?" The reason is that if the Grandmother was black, and the grandchildren were white, the grandmother would hide herself so that the grandchildren would not be discriminated against. Said grandchildren would always be the most practiced in "white ways" i.e. the ones that insisted they were pure sons and daughters of Spain blood and act like it. Racism is a weed that grows in all soils, sadly.

[Facility Inspector]

61. It's amazing what White people say

when they think they are alone.

[artislife]

82. Yes. nt

[DustyJoe]

104. Also

As I alluded to in a post above, other language ethnicities say some pretty outlandish and shocking racist things when they are unaware that the seemingly white person behind then is the same ethnic makeup as them and understands every word they are saying.

[YoungDemCA]

86. Interesting thread. The thing about "whiteness"...

...is that it is defined in the US by the absence of color - or more precisely, the lightness of one's skin.

It is also a social construct that has evolved over time. At one point in time, the Irish weren't considered white. Neither were the Italians, Poles, Hungarians, etc. Nowadays, all of those groups (and more) are considered white by just about everybody.

"White" is inclusive of "European descent", but it is not necessarily limited to that. Again, it is about skin color, and how easily and comfortably one fits into the dominant culture of the United States* In other words, how "assimilated" one is. In practice, the opposite of whiteness in the American context is marginalization.

*Because race, ethnicity, etc. is not defined the same everywhere - by any means.

[Boomer]

88. Term is fluid because "Us" is fluid

When it comes down to it, "White" just means "Us" and "Black" or "Hispanic" or whatever is really just "Other."

Depending on historical circumstance, the people invited into the Us category changes, but it's always the group trying to hold onto power. "Other" are the groups seen as threatening that authority.

[flamingdem]

124. Agree, but now Spanish and Italian natives are considered white

Does Chris Christie think he's not white? Mario Cuomo?

[BumRushDaShow]

132. Here's the interesting thing about that

Absent non-Europeans being factored in, there is a color-code that goes on among (Caucasian) Europeans where the Southern Europeans are often mistreated more than the Northern ones. For example with Italy - you have a big difference in treatment and perception between those from Sicily (or the decedents of Sicilians - like the Cuomos and Christie) versus those from Tuscany. And don't even mention the Greeks. The most obvious group who have experienced the wrath of Europe were the minority Roma (or Romani - often dubbed the "gypsies&quot and I still believe that Turkey is purposely kept out of the EU because of the "swarthiness" issue.

Yeah - this color thing has a long history and this is why the code for racism here in the U.S. is so confounding and insidious to outsiders (the U.S. being far more heterogeneous than most of the rest of the world's countries). And it's because when more than one "race" is involved, then a hierarchy sets up, where previously you may have had those within a race (different ethnicities) battling internally... but that discord drops, and the "other" race is immediately deemed "inferior" (no matter how rich or poor either group is). And whoever is in the "majority" calls the shots (unless the minority can control by force like what happened in South Africa).

[Nye Bevan]

96. Would Marco Rubio be considered to be the second nonwhite president of the US

if he won the election?

[artislife]

97. Yes, probably

He is Cuban.

The thing about Cubans, that many other Latinos feel, is they don't have the same history as being undesirable in this country. They are not like Puerto Ricans who are from a territory of the US and have rights to be here but from a country who we have an embargo against. They are given asylum here. The only ones out of Latin America. A lot of this is due to the fact that Castro was a Communist and most of the first wave of Cubans were the wealthy Casino and property owners. They were the elite and probably pretty Spanish in blood and not indigenous or African.

The Cuban experience is unique.

[flamingdem]

123. Rubio is probably 100% Spanish which is considered white

as far as I know. They think so. In the old days it was not though, just like the Italians were not considered white.

Who thinks that Chris Christie is not white?

Likely he knows his family tree and there is nobody from Carabali or Congo in there.

[artislife]

125. Technically, yes

But I think the term in everyday use is more or less about location of one's ethnicity. Do your people come from Central or South America, including the Carribean. He is an ethnically White Latino as there are Black Latinos and mixed Latinos.

The only difference with Cuba, is how the people are welcomed here. It is less about them and more about our getting one over on Castro and communism. See Haiti for a distinct difference to the Carribean people coming over.

So Cubans don't share the same "Go home" mentality against them that the rest of the Latinos do.

Italians come from Europe. It isn't about the language being of Latin base. That is why they are not Latinos.

[lunamagica]

126. Well, I live in Miami, and Cubans like Rubio consider themselves 100% white. They go so far as being

insulted if anyone suggests otherwise.

They don't want to be called "Hispanic" or "Latino".

In fact there was a movement many years ago where they wanted their own classification. They wanted to be able to mark "Cuban"
on the race and ethnicity questions.

It's funny because they hold this elitist attitude until they need the support of the rest of the Hispanic population, such as with Elian Gonzalez or with elections. Then we are all brothers and sisters.

I will clarify now that of course, not ALL Cubans feel this way. But a lot, a LOT of them do.

[flamingdem]

127. I think there is a category of "Cuban" on the census!

There really should be considering all the government help they get. Someone should press Rubio on that too!

[lunamagica]

135. There is? I had no idea they got away with that

Defenetly someone should ask Rubio about this. But I'm sure he'll ask for the support of the Hispanic community

[artislife]

144. Well who was in the first wave of Cubans?

The Elites.

[kydo]

98. Half Mexican half white and I never knew what to pick on the race thing

Usually picked "other" as for a long time Hispanic wasn't an option. But then when it was, I was still both, so which one should I pick?

I don't speak Spanish. My mom started to teach me up until the age of 3, but then my dad came back from an over seas duty station(Goose Bay he was in the Air Force), and we moved to Michigan. He didn't like it when my mom spoke Spanish to me because he didn't understand it and he didn't like her saying something to me that he didn't know. Thought she might talk about him or something. So she stopped speaking Spanish and I eventually lost what ever I learned. You know "use it or lose it" and I lost it, mostly. I get the just of what is being said but I can't speak for crap, taco, nacho's various other foods, shut up and work and some cuss words is about all I can mange. Crazy huh?

But I pass for white. Generally people ask if I am Jewish, Italian or just from New York. I say no, no, and I flew over New York City once as a baby.

Many white people I know will say the meanest and nasty things when they think only white people are around. They are always surprised, shocked and then embarrassed when after some of those remarks are said and I say, "you know I am Hispanic, right?"

See just too totally confuse everyone I married a guy with a very very very German last name.

Oh and it gets even better, before I was married, my maiden name was are you ready ... Whiteside. I lie to you all not. It is for real.

[artislife]

99. Yes, what to pick

My ethnic make up is Mexican, Native and Irish. It was my mother who didn't want Spanish spoken in the house. One brother went to Costa Rica and learned Spanish. He speaks it every day in LA. He looks Irish.

[nadine_mn]

108. Me too and I have benefited from White privilege

everyday. It is on all of us to speak up and make a difference

[Omaha Steve]

117. Great post

K&R!

OS

[valerief]

120. I love that video clip at the link. White privilege is just so, well, black and white.

I can't see how any reasonable can deny this.

[flamingdem]

122. I like this direction

It's a vision for changing things if we can tune in and speak up.

[GOLGO 13]

140. I'm too have been flabbergasted when "they" relax & show us their true face.

Even dated some girls that were shocked that I was not white. I will say that 100% of them changed their entire mindset/attitude about Latino afterword's. I dated that nonsense out of them.

Unfortunately, so many girls and not enough time to reeducate them.

[yuiyoshida]

143. For me its pretty clear cut!

but hey, I never mind pitching in!

[moosemike]

149. Color is irrelevant

Content of character is where its at.

[Warpy]

151. I can tell her what would have happened had she spoken up and said that treatment was wrong

The racist checker would have called the manager over, the checker would have made a stink, and there would have been a good chance the cops would be called and a lady who just wanted to buy her groceries would have gone to jail. For nothing.

Sometimes we white folks do have to speak up because black people are still not listened to most of the time. It's not paternalistic in this case, it's just making sure people listen to someone who is pointing out injustice.

I hope someday black people will be listened to. Right now, they're seen as problems, as being out of control, as being someone the police should deal with.