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(65,616 posts)Thanks guys!
WDIM
(1,662 posts)And all the Democrats in congress and the senate that voted to give GWB the permission to do so.
PNACs never ending war is paying off huge for the war profiteers.
newthinking
(3,982 posts)PNAC has become equal opportunity. What a fucking mess....
packman
(16,296 posts)No excuses - they should have stood stronger.
lostnfound
(16,169 posts)Since that whole toppling the statue part was just a staged PR op.
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)Sadly, we're hearing the same kind of thing again.
GummyBearz
(2,931 posts)As far as I remember, France did not send troops to Iraq and actually lobbied the UN against the war.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)GummyBearz
(2,931 posts)Don't know the details yet, but oh well... I guess they had it coming right?
jeff47
(26,549 posts)You do realize we are supposed to be the party that understands details and nuance matter, right? Not the one that mindlessly vomits forth mindless attacks.
GummyBearz
(2,931 posts)I said they didn't deserve it, you pointed out they did do something to deserve it. Circular reasoning wasn't my specialty. I guess I will go forward with my stand point that it was not deserved, until you prove me wrong
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Apparently, reminding you time did not stop means "France deserved it". Which is facepalm-ingly stupid.
But it is an obvious attempt to shut up people who point out your errors.
GummyBearz
(2,931 posts)And was that deserved or undeserved? There is a difference if they bombed a hospital or a terrorist training camp
CJCRANE
(18,184 posts)and are now trying to do the same to Assad.
That doesn't mean the people of Paris deserve what happened and I personally have never done the whole "we deserve it" spiel. We don't deserve it. I don't even buy into the concept of "blowback". It doesn't need to be an issue either.
But it's predictable that if you give weapons to jihadis, take away stabililizing governments, then leave your borders open to masses of people unchecked, then the jihadis are going to come back and attack you.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)It really doesn't matter at this point who started it although I would say that George W. Bush and we in the US started the Iraq War, no doubt. But remember Iraq and Iran fought before Bush went in there, as did Iraq and, was it Kuwait? or maybe really Saudi Arabia that was stolen from and attacked? Do we really know?
But the attack in Paris was an attack strictly on vulnerable, helpless civilians -- a brutal act of war no matter what the excuse. There was no military target in that stadium or the restaurant. Those were strictly civilian targets. That is an act of ruthless, heartless aggression only intended to incite more war.
How to react is for our best military strategists to consider. More war may or may not be the answer. But the attacks in Paris were brutal acts of war and should be viewed as such.
There was no military purpose. They were not seeking out potentially armed victims. They were seeking civilian victims. That is a heinous crime. And certainly no religion condones that kind of act.
CJCRANE
(18,184 posts)then they will come back and attack you.
Secure the borders, don't arm or fund jihadis, don't destabilize countries that kept a lid on extremists, don't let masses of refugees in, and the problem will be mitigated somewhat.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)We sell an enormous amount of weapons to that area of the world. Of course they are used and eventually will be turned against the West.
We are crazy to do that. I agree with you on that.
With regard to refugees, I don't have an opinion yet. I just don't know enough about what is going on with regard to the refugees.
But I do note that the Syrians and others in the Middle East have not welcomed the Jewish refugees from around the world, and were especially unwelcoming to the Jewish refugees in Israel when the UN established that haven for them. I am amazed that the Syrians who were so unwelcoming to Israelis are now turning to Europe for asylum. What goes around comes around. What a perfect example.
We need to remember it as we determine our policy toward Syrian refugees. How welcoming should we be? I don't know enough about the facts of their exile yet. It's all kind of murky in my mind and consciousness. Who are they? What do they want and expect?
It's very hard to be a refugee. Even when you come from a rich country and go to another rich country to live, it is very hard. As an outsider, you have to start from the bottom and work your way up in the culture and economy. It is really tough. I do not wish the role of a refugee or an immigrant on anyone. It's so hard.
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)Doesn't that make it an act of terrorism? War is against armies.
There will always be blowback. Ask David and Goliath
jeff47
(26,549 posts)France (among others) bombed Qaddafi's military, so he could not use it to stop the revolution in Libya. That's the pretext for ISIS attacking France.
But again, ISIS barely has the ability to hold vacant desert. They aren't waging war on France, because they'd be crushed in a "traditional" war.
ISIS is seeking to provoke "the West" into attacking Muslim countries, so that those countries bring an actual military and we can get WWIII going.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)In war, the goal is to push the other side to admit defeat and negotiate peace.
The first targets are military ones. The point is to disarm not destroy the civilian population. The military that can strike back at the attackers are the first targets for that reason.
ISIS in France attacked civilian targets -- helpless, unsuspecting, unprepared and UNARMED civilians.
Attacking civilians for the sake of killing and terrorizing a population is an act of cowardice. It is also an act of cruel aggression. It is an act of war.
The bombings by western military organizations are usually strategically organized and prioritized to focus first on targets that a country might use for defense or aggression -- military targets.
ISIS action was cowardly and intended to incite retaliation. It was and it will.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)It isn't. It's reminding another poster that time did not stop in 2003.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)ejbr
(5,856 posts)you mean taking a symbolic stand to call french fries "freedom" fries is not sane?
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)The French insisted that Bush should wait to get the report of the international inspection tam in Iraq. Bush refused and had set the attacks in motion before that report which contradicted what Bush was claiming about the Iraq WMDs had arrived. France opposed Bush's decisions. That's why the Republicans started talking about Freedom Fries.
I'm sure you know this, but some readers of your post may not understand that you are making a joke, so I am taking the liberty of clarifying how they can learn the truth about the Iraq War and why it was so wrong, such a crime against humanity.
maddiemom
(5,106 posts)Gothmog
(145,046 posts)hedgehog
(36,286 posts)Rotegard
(29 posts)The majority of the Democrats in Congress voted against giving Bush authorization for the iraq war. Hillary, Kerry, and Biden were voting against Bernie, Wellstone, Feingold and common sense. Shame Shame Shame.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)normal and decent forget that horrible, massive and continuing crime or those who enabled it when we so needed people to STOP them?? It's just not possible
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Bernie showed right then and there that he is the most competent candidate to lead our foreign policy.
Experience is not the key to good foreign policy.
Asking the right questions and seeking out the right experts. Those are the keys to good foreign policy.
Hillary has made so many mistakes in foreign policy. The Iraq War Resolution vote. The bombing of Libya. And those are just two that I know about. They reveal that she does not have the ability or the habit of asking the questions that need to be asked about what all the possible results or costs are of the actions we might choose in foreign policy.
We need Bernie because he asks the right questions.
In my view, the ISIS situation is now pretty much a matter of the best military strategy. With the attacks in Paris, ISIS declared itself to be a serious threat outside of the Middle East.
Younger people do not remember all the terrorist groups and terrorism that has occurred at least since the 1960s. ISIS has perhaps the biggest military organization of all the various terror groups that I recall from my life. It has now thrust itself into the realm of military assault and I trust it will be treated accordingly.
ISIS leaders will regret the murders in Paris.
Angry Dragon
(36,693 posts)Back in 1994 Cheney gave an interview stating that taking out Saddam would be a bad thing
I guess when you are in charge things don't matter as much
BeanMusical
(4,389 posts)Here's a clip of that interview:
Angry Dragon
(36,693 posts)BeanMusical
(4,389 posts)geardaddy
(24,926 posts)Thanks Peggy!
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)d_legendary1
(2,586 posts)and here we are talking about how to deal with the people we armed from the very beginning. A face palm doesn't do this picture justice.
SoapBox
(18,791 posts)And what happened to all the oil revenues that we were going to steal, uh, get, to pay for the war?
rpannier
(24,329 posts)Doncha remember?
We were treated like liberators and within 6 weeks, maybe it was 6 months, the whole thing was over
KansDem
(28,498 posts)...and flowers tossed at the soldiers!
It's all coming back to me now!
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)yuiyoshida
(41,831 posts)shot at the previous President before Barrack Obama!
malthaussen
(17,183 posts)I was pretty certain, back in the day, that if Saddam was overthrown, another thug would take his place and business would go on as usual. Indeed, I was sorry we didn't hang him from a Baghdad lamppost back in the first Gulf war. Could be I miscalculated. Difference: I do not, thank Whomever, make foreign policy for the U.S..
-- Mal