Many Liberals Defend Islam the Way Conservatives Defend Guns

[ericson00]

Here's a great article:

Let me start off by saying, I am in no way anti-Muslim. I’m very anti-organized religion – all organized religion. I’ve written many articles bashing the idiocy and ignorance of conservative “Christianity.” I also know that there are many peaceful Muslims in the world.
That being said, it’s undeniable that Islam, more so than any other major religion, is linked to violence, oppression, inequality, instability and anti-women beliefs. Even if you remove the radical extremists such as ISIS or al Qaeda, Muslim nations such as Iran, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Kuwait and Egypt aren’t exactly beacons for freedom, free expression, equality, women’s rights or many other ideas liberals claim to support.

That’s why I wholeheartedly agree with Bill Maher when he says it’s difficult to call yourself a liberal if you defend the culture of Islam.

As a progressive, I’m a staunch defender of women’s rights, gay rights, religious freedom and equality. Those are values I don’t see reflected in the vast majority of Muslim nations, especially in The Middle East and south Asia. Right now in Saudi Arabia there are people in prison for preaching equality and freedom. In several large Muslim nations, women aren’t allowed to be out in public unless they’re covered. In at least a few others, homosexuality is still punishable by death.

I’m struggling to understand this; can someone explain to me how any of that is liberal or why liberals would defend this religion, while seemingly never having any problems bashing right-wing Christian idiocy?...

If you use facts to show that Islam and Sharia law are linked to a lot of this extremism and oppression, even in the non-terrorist aspects of Islam, liberals will often respond with ridiculous comparisons. They’ll harken back to the Crusades from a 1,000 years ago to try to make a point, or they’ll claim any white male who carried out a horrific act of violence over the past several decades is a “Christian terrorist.” If a Muslim kills 5 people because they’re a lone psychopath, that’s not Islamic extremism. If a Muslim kills 5 people in the name of Islam, that’s Islamic extremism.

[Yorktown]

1. Reality check: Islam is not progressive

Nor are Christianity or Hinduism.

But for whatever reason, Islam has been granted special privilege far too long by progressives

Probably because of the guilt of colonialism and neo-colonialism.

But past sins can't be an excuse forever for the current mayhem created by religion.

[CBGLuthier]

4. I know christians who are a hell of a lot more progressive than some of the people on DU.

[Yorktown]

7. Well, from the start, Christianity is so illogical you can do whatever with it

The OT and NT are in obvious contradiction.

A religion which binds them both in a book called Bible is weird.

And the NT itself is self contradictory hearsay. So much for credibility.

[whathehell]

55. and Judaism and Islam are not?

I:m waiting for a DUer with guts to ridcule a religion

that's a less easy target here than Christianity.

[leftynyc]

58. I've done it plenty of times

I've also been called an Islamophobe and xenophobe and several other choice names for daring to point out that Islam is not, in the slightest or in any way, liberal. I used to care about that but once I realized it was a knee jerk response to whatever makes certain liberals lie to themselves, I simply stopped caring about the names. The article is right, Bill Maher was right (I've been typing those words a lot lately).

[whathehell]

73. Yes

and more credit to you, but you are an exception.

[leftynyc]

74. I just wish more so called liberals

stopped giving a shit about what those who are only trying to shut down the argument say about them. So they call you a hater - you know what's in your heart and these are anonymous people on the internet. Why give a shit what they think? I refuse to be so open minded my brains fall out.

[whathehell]

75. My sentiments exactly.

I've been called everything as well, and like you, I stand firm, call it like I see it, and refuse to.be so open minded my brains fall out.

[leftynyc]

78. Just look at

Post #2 on this thread. That poster is pretending both the article and the OP are saying all Muslims are terrorists. It's such a dishonest and bullshit way of trying to win an unwinnable argument. Makes me nauseous.

[Waiting For Everyman]

87. Couldn't agree more.

Saluting the meme is a lot of nonsense. I don't even consider that a viewpoint at all because there's no thinking involved in it. It's verbal rubber-stamping of the kind that a two-year old could repeat.

As for the name callers and mud slingers, that's a big so what. "Consider the source" about sums it up for me. The personal attack means they have no point to make, and more than that, they don't mind hiding that fact behind a knowingly false attack on others. There's nothing deserving of validity there, who cares what they think (using the term loosely) indeed.

[whatthehey]

77. Do it plenty. They're all factless fairy tales.

[whathehell]

81. Funny how I keep hearing about all this "I do it plenty"

but have yet to see it more than once in my seven years here.

[tblue37]

168. Are you and whatthehey related? Cousins or brothers? nt

[whathehell]

173. No, not at all. n/t

[itcfish]

84. Judaism, Islam and Christianity

They are the Abrahamic religions. They come from the same father. Ridicule one then you ridicule the 3 religions.

[whathehell]

85. Fine...I think.you should test that

Ridicule Judaism and see how much time passes before you're called an anti-Semite.

Do the same with even the worst aspects of Islam and see how fast you'll be shouted down as an "Islamaphobe".

[snooper2]

92. I posted a thread just yesterday asking some help understanding some text

Dropped like a rock-

Far left goes LA LA LA LA when it doesn't suit the goal of said topic or thread-

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027355098

[whathehell]

109. I get your point, but

I'm not sure I'd characterize DU as "far left"

[Yorktown]

130. Don't worry: I'm an equal opportunity religion basher

[jberryhill]

151. And what religion was Stalin promoting?

Or Pol Pot?

[Yorktown]

153. They were promoting Communism, a secular dogma which happened to be anti-theist

The fact the Communist dogma demanded total allegiance, and therefore regarded religion as a competitor doesn't make any kind of point re. atheism.

[MADem]

54. Don't conflate "progressive" with "liberal."

I see that a lot here on DU.

[Mister Ed]

63. I don't know the difference between those two terms.

Could you give me a quick explanation? Thanks.

[ericson00]

14. well said

and yes, the whole "anti-colonialism/post-colonialism" academic thing is a serious sham. Its an example of having good motives but trying to use noble lies, which in turn fuck things up. Like I cannot believe people who try to blame the Algeria War for what happened in France!

[Buzz cook]

154. There are historical differences, but

In modern times, starting in the 1980s conservatives successfully demonized the word liberal and then in the 1990s some folks started saying I'm a progressive so that they couldn't be tarred with the liberal brush.

Now liberal is making a resurgence so the two labels mean whatever the wearer wants them to.

[cpwm17]

86. The mythical special privilege granted to Islam strikes again.

In reality, it's the other way around. Muslims receive special condemnation. They are vilified as a group when it is they that are often victimized as a group - look at all of the Muslim majority nations the US has recently bombed.

There are Muslims that behave badly, but it is they that are collectively guilty. They are not people or individuals, but a collective mass of Islam. So when someone defends them as a people, they are accused of defending the worst of Islam.

[Yorktown]

135. No. the millions of good muslims are good people, period

despite the injunctions of the holy book which preaches violent jihad, contempt for women

and, incidentally, calls for the death of gays, apostates and blasphemers.

The special privilege of Islam is that while Christianity is mocked, Islam is respected.

While both, and other religions, have a lot of content to be taken to task and mocked.

[cpwm17]

140. Predominately the discussions centers around Muslims rather than Islam.

As an atheist, I have no love for Islam, or any other religion. I don't understand religious thinking or why religion should be admired.

But the discussions generally center around the behavior of Muslims. Muslims are people. All evidence indicates that they are not uniquely bad or more prone to violence. They tend to be rather conservative, which isn't my cop of tea, but beyond that, they are pretty much like most people in this world.

One major difference: Muslims are uniquely vilified:

http://www.loonwatch.com/2011/12/eye-opening-graphic-map-of-muslim-countries-that-the-u-s-and-israel-have-bombed/

This “three-decade war for domination of the Middle East” becomes apparent when we consider how many Muslim countries the peace-loving United States and her “stalwart ally” Israel have bombed:...

Under Barack Obama, the U.S. is currently bombing Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan, Yemen, Somalia, and Libya. According to some reports (see here and here), we can add Iran to this ever-expanding list. [Update: An Informed Comment reader named Shannon pointed out that in fact the United States bombed Iran in 1988 during Operating Praying Mantis, an act that “cannot be justified” according to the International Court of Justice.]

Thanks to American arms and funding, our “stalwart ally” Israel has bombed every single one of its neighbors, including Palestine, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, and Egypt. Israel has also bombed Tunisia and Iraq (how many times can Americans and Israelis bomb this country?).

The total number of Muslim countries that America and Israel have bombed comes to fourteen: Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan, Yemen, Somalia, Libya, Iran, Sudan, Palestine, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Egypt, and Tunisia.

There have been throughout my entire life efforts to dehumanize Muslims in the US. It has been very successful. The US treats them like cannon fodder. Various pro-war interests like the results.

It's strange that many people that support US aggressive wars or politicians that support aggressive wars complain that Muslims are particularly violent. Self awareness is a virtue, American exceptionalism is not.

[Yorktown]

142. The discussion centers about Islam?? Xian fundies are regularly pilloried here

And rightly so.

But I notice lots of DUers fear being called islamophobes or racists by tackling Islam.

The groupthink pressure is in favor of kid gloves with Islam for that reason: racism.

Well, Islam is not a race, it's a sick ideology. Just like the Torah, Old Testament.

No matter the billions of believers, abrahamic religions call for murders of deviants.

That Jews worship the Torah and do not apply it is just their choice of being inconsistent.

Like Christians believe in books which contradict their own contradictions in spirals.

[cpwm17]

144. Christianity is the dominate religion in the US

so Christianity is very relevant to American discussions. Christians aren't being bombed by the US, so Christians are far less vilified. Some discussions on DU do go over-the-top when they vilify Christians as a people.

Religious texts have major issues. Most people ignore most of the bad stuff and still claim to believe the religion. It's a strange feature of human nature I don't understand.

It is convenient for many people to vilify and dehumanize the stranger on the other side of the world, when it is us that we have control over. It is us that we should try to improve, such as quitting all of these aggressive wars that are so devastating to so many people on the other side of the world.

[get the red out]

99. Agree

But I am always VERY nervous about saying that.

[Yorktown]

137. As you should be

I mean, that's why the word islamophobe has been invented:

to beat down any criticism of Islam, like questioning the death of gays and apostates.

[CBGLuthier]

2. Because every single Muslim is a saud. They all are the same. Yeah, bullshit.

meanwhile every single gun is still designed for the primary purpose of killing a human being.

Right now I am sitting ten feet from a muslim. Nice guy, not a damned thing like your stereotypical examples. Since I am not in the US I feel a lot fucking safer than surrounded by the gun crazy culture of the US where some loon with a fetish and a grudge could blow your head off at any time.

Major Fail all over this one.

[leftynyc]

71. Shoving words into other's mouths

doesn't help your argument in the slightest.

[kcr]

126. How is repeating the argument a person is making, "shoving words in their mouth"

The argument in the OP didn't make any distinctions. No shoving into mouths was being done, whatsoever.

[leftynyc]

161. Nowhere in that post

is there everyone is a Saud. Nowhere.

[rockfordfile]

138. To a extent I agree

[Binkie The Clown]

3. 1.8 BILLION Muslims in this world

and only 10% or so are radical jihadists. Why worry about a mere 180 million radicals?

[CBGLuthier]

5. I do hope you did not hurt your ass when you pulled this "statistic" out

[Yorktown]

11. He's quoting from the Pew poll.

[leftynyc]

59. I'm sure you can expect

excuses and deflection for daring to post what many Muslims in these countries actually do believe. I'm sure it's the West's fault somehow.

[Angel Martin]

100. some polling specifically on Syrian refugees

Fig 11.

over ten percent have a least a somewhat positive view of ISIS

http://english.dohainstitute.org/file/Get/40ebdf12-8960-4d18-8088-7c8a077e522e

[Yorktown]

139. Very interesting. Thanks.

[Yorktown]

6. Spot on

Christianity has been beaten down a good deal, especially in Europe.

The ideology Islam needs a good smacking down too.

That's why it was so important US newspapers should have printed the Danish cartoons.

And did not.

Enough with kid gloves about religions.

[Ex Lurker]

9. I wonder if this post will get alerted

I'm guessing yes. I agree with you, BTW.

[Yorktown]

13. I'll risk it: that post was insisting on free speech

I think religions are harmful. Cartoons and mockery are a peaceful way to get that message across.

If self censorship forbids the lampooning of religions, let's be done with it and have blasphemy laws.

[Truprogressive85]

16. feel better by posting this

Must feel big and bad huh

[Yorktown]

17. Yes, the Paris attack does "feel big and bad"

But the abrahamic texts are still violent nonsense on normal days.

[Truprogressive85]

23. Would you support banning religions

And while we're at it ban churches synygougues mosque

[Yorktown]

24. I support undermining religion by education

• There was a big bang.
This implies there was no creation in 6 days
• Humans are animals which evolved from proto-apes within a great tree of life
This implies there was no Adam.
• There never were Hebrew tribes imprisoned in Egypt
This implies there was no Moses.

Would you agree with me in teaching all this in schools?

[Truprogressive85]

27. Ok

I believe in the Big Bang and God
I believe in Evolution

I use the bible as a tool which includes stories and lessons for my daily life to do good .

I will never apologize nor renounce that

[Yorktown]

31. The Bible (OT+NT) states absurd facts and supports slavery

Nowhere does the Bible say its genesis account is an image.
Christians only started saying that once Science busted the biblical genesis.

Paul writes sentences which tell slaves to faithfully obey their masters.
Both these points (and much, much more) make the Bible a bad book.

And yes, my dislike of religions has been stoked by the Paris attacks.

[Truprogressive85]

36. What relgion was he practicing ?

Should we monitor every white male between the ages of 18-25 because he is terrorist who killed 9 nine.

[Yorktown]

39. Do you currently have a Christian kingdom financing Christian extremism

Because, newsflash, Saudi Arabia has been pumping billions of dollars over thirty years to prop Islamic extremism.

If there were 1.5 billion Jews and a Kingdom of Judea sitting on seas of oil and financing radicalism in synagogues all over the world, my main concern about religion would be judaism.

[Truprogressive85]

40. HUH?

So Dylan Roof was a christian ?

[Yorktown]

43. I don't know and I don't care

We are on a thread discussing religion, and its exemption from criticism.

The only, simple point I am making is that religions can motivate people to do harm (as Paris demonstrates) and that religions have been shielded from criticism and mockery for far too long.

The religious Right has erected wall of deference around Christianity and progressives have confused caring for immigrants from muslim-majority countries with deference to Islam.

Now, if you want to enlarge the topic to other things, like the fact humans can commit violence for other ideologies or prejudices, I'm OK. Thinking about it, I see the guy in the photo killed blacks because he's a racist. And? Racism is the maladapted expression of primeval human fears. He needs psychiatric treatment, as radical believers do. But since it's not feasible to treat all the radical believers, it's probably best to bet on education to bust religions.

[Truprogressive85]

45. Mock religon all you want its your right

Same its my right to practice whatever religion I feel

I will most likely die at the hands of Dylan Roof type or the pigs before jihadist

[Yorktown]

47. Well, I'd take arms to defend you from a Dylan Roof

And I'll do what I can to defang religions.

[safeinOhio]

57. As most issues, it's not all black and white

http://www.mpvusa.org

[Buzz cook]

155. Besides the United States?

The US has caused more deaths since 9/11 than all Muslim terrorists combined. In Israel the death toll stacks higher on the Israeli side

Are you saying because a state does it, it isn't terrorism? Or are you saying that even though the victims are all one religion it doesn't make it religious violence?
George Bush was an xtian when he started the war and he is on record saying that he had religious motives for his actions.

[Yorktown]

160. afaik, the US is a secular country with a secular Constitution

The fact the cretinous president who decided to calamitously invade Iraq held strong religious beliefs in order to stay away from booze doesn't make the invasion of Iraq religiously motivated.

[Buzz cook]

163. The US is a secular country

That is controlled by whoever is in power. When it is controlled by xtian ideologues it is effectively an xtian state.

[Yorktown]

165. No. Constitution, government and public opinion trump President.

A President works within a heavy machinery where most people respect the Constitution, all this within a democracy where public opinion counts.

GW's loony relation to bronze age beliefs would have amounted to nearly nothing if the general public hadn't been so scared and so angry. Anger is a poor counselor. I was amazed at the time people bought there was a link Iraq-9/11.

[Ford F-150]

19. Do you have an issue

With the free expression of thought?

[Truprogressive85]

21. None at all

Just want to make sure freedom of speech is for anyone

And if someone were to post something offensive or racist they right to expression is protected

[Yorktown]

26. Racism should be ridiculed. Offending religion is perfectly fine.

Religions are ideologies which generate negative consequences.
Why would these ideologies not be lampooned, at the risk of offending believers.

Mocking religion is a shortcut to point the glaring holes in religious doctrines.

Does the text of the Quran preach violence? Yes.
Does a cartoon with muhamad wearing a bomb express this thought? Yes.

Does the text of the Bible express condemnation of homosexuality? Yes.
Would cartoons mocking the Abrahamic god in gay intercourse be OK? Yes.

Religions are not races, they are ideologies with hurtful consequences.

[Truprogressive85]

30. I see

So you pro freedom of expression just when its offending religion
but when it comes to race or sex orientation time to bring out censors ?

[Yorktown]

34. Where did I say that?

I am OK to mock, ridicule religion, homophobes (which often are believers) and racists (which can be religious or not)

Voltaire mocked religions and racism. He was homophobic, which shows even great authors aren't perfect.


Edit: sorry, I missed part of your point. Should people be free to make homophobic or racist jokes?

I guess so when it's not addressed to someone and not threatening. The pic above mocking muhamad doesn't attack anyone in particular. If someone wanted to waste his time making jokes about blacks and watermeleons ar Jews and kippas, it's their problem. I even think that the holocaustr denial laws in France are stupid and I would even question if it's useful to ban the N word. Let racists, homophobes or whatever dicredit themselves using that kind of speech.

I guess the buck stops when people would make homophobic jokes in front of a gay bar or racist jokes in front of a shop owned by a minority because it can be assimilated to intimidation or incitement to violence.

[Ford F-150]

38. Where did the poster write anything about

censorship?

[hifiguy]

114. Flag on the play.

[Ford F-150]

37. Yes...racist speech is protected

but not free from ridicule...

[leftynyc]

60. For what it's worth

If I were a juror, I'd let it stand and call anyone who wanted to hide it a sniveling coward. You can't have a free society without free speech.

[Jesus Malverde]

66. What if some issues a fatwa against DU...

We should be afraid.

[leftynyc]

67. Nope

Refuse to live in fear but the notion that these barbarians wouldn't cut the heads of every single person on this board because we're liberals is just putting your head in the sand.

[Jesus Malverde]

68. Come on lefty by now you should know

I was being sarcastic.

Peace.

[leftynyc]

70. Oy - sorry

Just starting on my iced coffee. So hard to tell sarcasm on this board - I've read too much nonsense. Hugs.

[Yorktown]

141. I have the feeling we share some views.

[leftynyc]

162. That's nice to hear

Some days I feel like I'm holding back a tidal wave.

[hifiguy]

112. Agreed 100%

Religious "privilege" of all kinds must end if humanity is to endure.

Religion is bullshit. Period.

[Kalidurga]

8. Islam is an oppressive religion no doubt just like most religions.

It wasn't too long ago the facade of the Duggar's religion was ripped off and we found out how they treat women and children who are raped, they are a stone shy of stoning them to death.

But, people are not guns. And you can defend individual people who are oppressed by and still practice their religion. It might be hard to understand why someone would remain in that religious group, but it is their right to do so and painting them with the brush of extremism while they are victims strikes me as being wrong.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

103. A stone shy of stoning them to death?

Oh, my! A bit hyperbolic?

Even the mormon fundamentalists don't stone women.

[Iggo]

104. 'Cuz we don't let 'em.

[Kalidurga]

111. They marginalize and blame rape victims

they tell them that they caused the rape by not being godly enough. Yeah that is a stone shy of stoning. They condemn the victims to a lifetime of guilt, shame, and pain.

[Arugula Latte]

134. You can't argue with the fact that a LOT of Xtian sects are super misogynistic and repressive.

The Catholic Church? Wimminhaters R Us. They don't stone women, but over the centuries many, many women have died because of the Catholic Church's policies and primitive beliefs and obsession with control and power.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

146. I don't buy "over the centuries"

I'm not comparing what someone did centuries ago to what someone is doing now.

Yes, the Catholic Church is misogynistic, but the comparison just isn't the same In fact, it's absurd.

[smirkymonkey]

10. +1000

[ericson00]

22. as a Hillary supporter, I'd never thought

to have seen that from you. I like when we can agree on things!

[hifiguy]

115. Count me in as another staunch Bernie supporter

who rec'd and agrees with your OP.

[TreasonousBastard]

12. No major religion is progressive, but...

it's easy to pick on Islam.

How would your reception be if you beat up on Judaism because of some arch-conservatives raising hell? The JDL, say, wasn't anything near as horrible as ISIS, but it was extremist and did cause trouble enough.

Would you look funny at your neighbor Goldberg, the high school math teacher, every time you heard about something nasty an Israeli did in the ME?

Buddhists in Burma aren't exactly the nice guys you might think they are. Nor are they in Tibet.

[ericson00]

15. the difference is this:

the JDL or similar ideologically based groups have not attacked countries on every inhabited continent on the face of the Earth. See http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/10077373/Graphic-terrorist-attacks-by-al-Qaeda-Islamist-and-Islamic-terrorist-groups-2001-2011.html (and that map leaves out a Hezbollah attack in Argentina back in '94).

Also, Israel is not comparable to terror organizations. Its a free democratic UN member state, and even the terrible comparison aside, fact is Jews/Israelis and supporters of Israel might call out anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism, but they'll still defend it and discuss it with opponents and supporters. Islamism apologists won't or they'll lie.

[TreasonousBastard]

29. Of course, but the point is not to defend...

Judaism, or Israel, which need no defense, but to simply point out that taking the worst parts of a group and expanding its worst faults to the entire group is false logic.

How can one point to some Muslim women wearing head scarves as a terrible thing but ignore Hasidic women wearing wigs or snoods?

[herding cats]

18. I suspect part of it is due to innocent people in the US being subjects of hate crimes.

I wonder if the reason we're so quick to defend not all Muslims as being extremist is because there are some in our country just looking for an excuse to declare it Muslim hunting season? Not that you can tell the religious affiliation of a person by looking at them, but things like that don't really matter to someone crazy enough to go shoot someone for looking like something they've been raised to hate.

Reports like this one form the FBI tend to resonate with us more because we're largely more compassionate.

FBI: Reported Hate Crimes Down Nationally, Except Against Muslims

Hate crimes in America dipped across the board in 2014, except in the category of anti-Muslim crimes, which rose about 14 percent over the prior year, according to FBI statistics released today. Given the barbaric Islamic State attacks in Paris last week and elsewhere recently, that latter trend seems destined to accelerate.

The reported drop in total hate crimes of almost 8 percent is probably meaningless, as several studies by the government’s Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS) in recent years have showed that the FBI numbers are vastly lower than the real level of hate crimes, making year-over-year comparisons of the totals virtually impossible. (The FBI’s reported national totals went from 5,928 in 2013 to 5,479 last year.)

However, experts have said that within the larger numbers, it is possible to get a good sense of trends. That means the rise in anti-Muslim hate crimes is very likely real, probably a reaction to reports of murders and other atrocities carried out by the Islamic State, or ISIS. Other categories of hate crime — anti-Latino, anti-black, anti-LGBT and anti-Jewish — all dropped, according to the new FBI numbers.

The actual totals of anti-Muslim hate crimes — from 135 in 2013 to 154 in 2014 — were not dramatic for a country of close to 320 million people.

But the BJS studies have found that while the FBI has reported over the last 20 years between about 6,000 and about 11,500 total hate crimes in America each year, the real annual totals in recent years has been nearly 260,000. That suggests that the real numbers are some 25 to 40 higher than the FBI totals, which in turns means the real 2014 total of anti-Muslim hate crimes could be as many as 6,000 or more.
https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2015/11/16/fbi-reported-hate-crimes-down-nationally-except-against-muslims

I suspect we're not defending the religion, but the people who practice it who aren't murdering people in the name of their god. Even if we don't agree with their religion, or any religion as being sensible, we don't like to see people being harmed for the sole reason that they look like, or even are a Muslim. It makes us too much like the extremist we despise to be comfortable in that roll.

[TreasonousBastard]

32. I agree-- we progreessives have become accustomed to defend groups that are discriminated against...

and Islam is becoming acceptable discrimination. And there is always that racial component.

Remember the Japanese internment camps during WWII? Not that many people demanded we go to Yorkville and imprison the Germans there.

[Behind the Aegis]

41. That may be a part of it.

However, I also understand what some others are saying in that it isn't so much about defending Muslims as it is defending Islam. The former are people, the latter, of course, is a philosophy, an idea.

As a side note, crimes against Jews were 625 (60% of all crimes against religious groups))/599 (59%) (2013/2014) and hate crimes increased against "Anti-Atheism/Agnosticism/etc" from 7/11 and it also rose against "Anti-Multiple Religions, Group". Also, crimes against Transgender people 23/58! Hate crimes are sometimes a mystery, sometimes not. No matter the target, they should always be condemned and confronted.

ETA: Here is the newest FBI stats (it's actually not linked at the site yet) https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/hate-crime/2014/home and 2013: https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/hate-crime/2013

[herding cats]

117. Defending all of Islam?

Including the extremist like Daesh/ISIL/ISIS? People who commit genocide and use torture and death threats to force others to conform to their doctrine deserve no defense from progressives. We have to accept that sometimes people do commit atrocities in the name of their religion, and when they do it's not a bias to be outraged that the people who do such.

Jewish people are by far the most attacked religious group in our nation. It's like a sickness for some people. You'd think looking back at what such actions have caused over the centuries they'd learn better, but no. Like so many people with other biases they hold to their hate and refuse to learn. They even add new false layers to their reasoning to help spread their hate to others.

[Bluenorthwest]

90. From that FBI report:

Of the 1,140 victims of anti-religious hate crimes:

56.8 percent were victims of crimes motivated by their offenders’ anti-Jewish bias.

16.1 percent were victims of anti-Islamic (Muslim) bias.

6.2 percent were victims of bias against groups of individuals of varying religions (anti-multiple religions, group)


Sexual-orientation bias

Of the 1,248 victims targeted due to sexual-orientation bias:

56.3 percent were victims of crimes motivated by their offenders’ anti-gay (male) bias.

24.4 percent were victims of anti-lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender (mixed group) bias.

13.9 percent were victims of anti-lesbian bias.

3.8 percent were victims of anti-bisexual bias.

1.5 percent were victims of anti-heterosexual bias
https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/hate-crime/2014/topic-pages/victims_final

Seems that many of your neighbors are subjected to a great number of bias crimes, year in and year out, while no mid is paid to it.
Why is that?

[herding cats]

119. There's only one bias there I admit I've missed.

I didn't realize there was a problem with anti-heterosexual bias. It appears to minuscule, though. Considering the majority of the population is heterosexual, and it's such a small percentage of that population being effected may explain why I hadn't heard of it before.

The rest I was already aware of, and am quite vocally against. So, I'm not sure what your point is really.

[shadowmayor]

20. Undeniable?

Says who? Christian Americans dressed in military garb have been bombing and massacring non-Christian people of color around the world for decades in our post WWII expansion of corporate empire. Where were the "moderate" voices decrying these atrocities. From outside our borders, much of the world sees us as crazy Christians taking resources and oppressing working people at every opportunity - some might even call it real politik. Why harken back to the Crusades when we can use modern weaponry to annihilate people by the score and not even blink? ISIS posts some videos of beheadings and burnings and the west freaks out. How about 48 one-ton bombs landing on and around Baghdad in one night to the rousing cheers of Americans watching the display on TV. How's that any different than a group of Muslims chanting "death to America"? The difference is degree - we are so accustomed to the behavior of our military that we don't consider the deaths delivered by the thousands and thousands on behalf of our nation to be outside the norm. Want to give ISIS a kick in the groin, I'm all for it, but the Islam is the worst tirade is actually a shallow claim easily launched from the comfortable confines of our so-called Christian nation. I think the right wing government running Israel is a bunch of murderous criminals and they're easy targets for well-deserved criticism; but I don't think it accomplishes any good to make the claim that Judaism is the "most violent" religion going.

[ronnie624]

25. !

[Yorktown]

28. Were the islamist attacks in China caused by US policy?

At least 18 people killed in knife and bomb attack by Chinese Muslims on police checkpoint after atheist government bans fasting during Ramadan

At least 18 people have died after Chinese Muslims attacked police with knives and bombs at a traffic checkpoint in apparent revenge for the government's crackdown on Ramadan.
The attack occurred in the southern city of Kashgar, where tensions between ethnic Uighurs and the majority Han Chinese have led to bloodshed in recent years.
Last week, China inflamed divisions by banning civil servants, students and teachers from fasting during the Muslim holy month and ordering restaurants to stay open.
Suspects killed several police officers with knives and bombs after speeding through a traffic checkpoint in a car in Kashgar's Tahtakoruk district.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3137211/At-18-people-killed-knife-bomb-attack-Chinese-Muslims-police-checkpoint-atheist-government-bans-fasting-Ramadan.html#ixzz3rpEMEHTb
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

[shadowmayor]

35. Kill a Commie for Mommy

Yeah, you gotta give the Commies cred for murdering people. Muslims have been giving them a good run for their money lately. But when it comes to who's number one, I'll put my money on the American Christians hands down. We're still number 1.

[leftynyc]

61. Can't blame the west for

the bombs in Russia either:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Moscow_Metro_bombings

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beslan_school_siege

Can't blame the west or the US specifically? Expect it to be ignored.

[cpwm17]

83. The US, a Christian majority nation

has murdered millions of innocent people in the world during my lifetime. Why don't you blame Christians, as a group, for these atrocities? That wouldn't be fair, of course, even though a large percentage of Americans, and Christians, supported these atrocities.

The unprovoked attack against Iraq was supported by huge number of Americans, including the media. Shouldn't that be held against us far more than what you posted should be held against Muslims?

This logic makes no sense: Muslims are magically more guilty for violence commited by other Muslims than other groups.

The 20th century is famous for its brutal wars and mass killings, most of it not by Muslims. I fact, Muslims were under represented in the mass murder of the 20th century.

http://www.loonwatch.com/2011/12/eye-opening-graphic-map-of-muslim-countries-that-the-u-s-and-israel-have-bombed/

This “three-decade war for domination of the Middle East” becomes apparent when we consider how many Muslim countries the peace-loving United States and her “stalwart ally” Israel have bombed:...

Under Barack Obama, the U.S. is currently bombing Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan, Yemen, Somalia, and Libya. According to some reports (see here and here), we can add Iran to this ever-expanding list. [Update: An Informed Comment reader named Shannon pointed out that in fact the United States bombed Iran in 1988 during Operating Praying Mantis, an act that “cannot be justified” according to the International Court of Justice.]

Thanks to American arms and funding, our “stalwart ally” Israel has bombed every single one of its neighbors, including Palestine, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, and Egypt. Israel has also bombed Tunisia and Iraq (how many times can Americans and Israelis bomb this country?).

The total number of Muslim countries that America and Israel have bombed comes to fourteen: Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan, Yemen, Somalia, Libya, Iran, Sudan, Palestine, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Egypt, and Tunisia.

[Yorktown]

133. Your fallacy is the same as that blaming Hitler on atheism

Hitler did not murder millions in the name of atheism (or Gott mit uns), he killed for Nazism.

The US didn't kill millions for Christainity, but for (pick one) freedom, capitalism, imperialism.

Let's focus on the incentives for murder: Nazism, greed, nationalism, religion, etc..

[geek tragedy]

33. "the culture of Islam" such as is found in Albania and Indonesia?

How about India? Malaysia?

[ericson00]

48. each has suffered serious jihadist attacks

in recent years except Albania, tho jihadists have started coming there.

Your presidential candidate is right: there is a war for the soul of Islam right now. Its global.

[Scootaloo]

42. The premise is utter bullshit.

You will find very few progressives who give a damn about Islam. It's just a religion, an broad collection of ideas of varying merit and veracity.

But progressives gave a damn about Muslims. You know, the people? The people who get thrown in front of trains. The people whose homes and places of worship are set on fire. The people who even our politicians advocate bombing "back into the stone age"? Or - my favorite - "Turn the whole place into a sheet of glass!" Ever heard the phrase "kill 'em all and let allah sort them out"?

You think those bombs are killing Islam? No, they're killing people.. How about that train, did it splatter Islam? No, it splattered a person. Would nuking the middle eat until it glows defeat "Islam"? Probably not, as the majority of the world's Muslims actually live at the other end of Asia. But lots and lots and lots of people would die. is setting fire to Mr. Rasheem's house striking a blow gainst Islam? No, it's putting a man and his family's life at risk and ruining their livlihood.

The author tries to figleaf himself:

Let me start off by saying, I am in no way anti-Muslim.

But he is. That's what this whole piece is. It's the same "hate the sin" dehumanizing claptrap we often see directed towards the people he does mention - because he never mentions Muslims. Muslims don't exist, Islam is this faceless, monolithic, uniform force. And to take the piece as-written, then well Islam must be the worst, most awfulest evil thing ever. Now if course, all this writer could possibly know about Muslims is that they are connected to this religion that he sees as the epitome of all evil.

So a faceless, meaningless horde of non-people defined exclusiely by all these evil things and hatreds, 1.8 billion strong. But he doesn't hate Muslims. Sure he doesn't.

Your author takes what he sees as a problem - that progressives care about Muslims, who are very often the targets of violence and hatred - and simply removes the "people" portion of "Muslim."

[Yorktown]

44. No: ideologies can generate violence

50% of the world's Muslims support Sharia.

Sharia calls for the death of people. In your words, you know, people?
Atheists hacked in Pakistan, gays hung in Iran, Yasidis enslaved in Iraq, you know, people.

And all these crimes are mandated by an ideology, Islam.

Sorry, Islam is a problem.


And so is Catholicism, condoning violence against gays in Uganda.
And so is Hinduism, created to reproduce a medieval social segregation.

God is not great.

[Scootaloo]

46. Congratulations on missing the point. I can see it was a herculean effort on your point.

[Yorktown]

50. Not sure what point I'm missing.

I certainly missed quite few in my life, like anyone.

However the point of the article is that progressives have given too much of a free pass to Islam, the ideology, in the name of caring for people, immigrants of Muslim background or people in Iraq attacked by the GW madman.

And I find this point refreshing. Let's not spare ideologies in the name of caring for people.

Now, if you will kindly explain to me the point I missed this time, I'll listen. I'm alaways ready to amend and improve myself. Quite a task, I'm well aware.

[Scootaloo]

52. All of them, actually.

The point of the quoted article in the OP is that "Many Liberals Defend Islam the Way Conservatives Defend Guns." This is riddled with problems. First off, the author doesn't ever support this argument. he repeats the statement quite often, but that is not supporting it. The second and most important problem is that it's just not true. Do you consider yourself a progressive? Are you "defending Islam"?

The reality is that progressives will and do and should defend Muslims, because Muslims are people and, very often ,a targeted minority in our societies.

The author conflates the two concepts - to him the reality of progressives standing up for Muslims becomes "Many Liberals Defend Islam the Way Conservatives Defend Guns." The "people" element is removed. Muslims end up dehumanized, and then characterized solely by the most extreme elements of some Islamic philosophies. And then progressives are cast as "defenders" of this faceless, monolithic force of evil, making us evil as well.

it's really no different from homophobes proclaiming "I don't hate gay people, i hate homosexuality." - but of course, the one commonality of gay people is homosexuality, so... yeah, they do hate gay people, don't they? "I don't hate you, I just hate the one thing I know about your entire existence" is an attempt to fig-leaf hating people.

[Yorktown]

53. I agree to defend people, Muslim or not, unjustly attacked for whatever reason

But Muslim is not an identity.

Ahmed X is a baker, 35 years old, center right politically, socially conservative, of Syrian origin, and is a Muslim in the sense he thinks 5 prayers a day will keep the hell away and thinks homosexuals are mud but holds no hatred for secular westerners.

Yusuf is 25 years old, just graduated, rather left leaning, of Albanian origin, and is sympathetic to violent jihad.

Only an anti-Muslim bigot or a Muslim supremacist would reduce them to their Muslim 'identity'.

But in both cases, they hold opinions which are problematic and generated by the ideology of Islam. In that sense, I feel the author of the original article has a point, Islam is an ideology generating problems.

In the same way that the root problem causing anti-"untouchables" apartheid in India is Hinduism.
In the same way homophobic bigotry in the US is largely Christianity-baesd.

[Tarheel_Dem]

49. Thought you should know.

AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service

On Wed Nov 18, 2015, 02:59 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

No: ideologies can generate violence
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7356960

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

No comments added by alerter

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Wed Nov 18, 2015, 03:03 AM, and the Jury voted 0-7 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No comments, no hide
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Since the alerter couldn't be bothered to comment, I vote to Leave It.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No comments by alerter, another bogus alert.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: It's an opinion. Let it stand.

[Yorktown]

51. Thanks for the info. Alerters are relentless.

In the post alerted upon, I said that Islam, Christianity and Hinduism are problematic.

So I guess it must have been an equal opportunity alert.

[Mnpaul]

143. Islamic law forbids terrorism

Top Ten Ways Islamic Law forbids Terrorism
http://www.juancole.com/2015/11/ten-ways-islamic-forbids-terrorism.html

1. Terrorism or hirabah is forbidden in Islamic law, which groups it with brigandage, highway robbery and extortion rackets– any illicit use of fear and coercion in public spaces for money or power.

2. Terrorism is above all murder. Murder is strictly forbidden in the Qur’an. 5:53 says, “… whoso kills a soul, unless it be for murder or for wreaking corruption in the land, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind; and he who saves a life, it shall be as if he had given life to all mankind,”

3. If the motive for terrorism is religious, it is impermissible in Islamic law. It is forbidden to attempt to impose Islam on other people.

4. Islamic law forbids aggressive warfare.

5. In the Islamic law of war, not just any civil engineer can declare or launch a war.

6. The killing of innocent non-combatants is forbidden.

7. Sneak attacks are forbidden. Muslim commanders must give the enemy fair warning that war is imminent.

8. The Prophet Muhammad counseled doing good to those who harm you and is said to have commanded, “Do not be people without minds of your own, saying that if others treat you well you will treat them well, and that if they do wrong you will do wrong to them.

9. The Qur’an demands of believers that they exercise justice toward people even where they have reason to be angry with them: “And do not let the hatred of a people prevent you from being just.

10. The Qur’an assures Christians and Jews of paradise if they believe and do good works, and commends Christians as the best friends of Muslims. I wrote elsewhere, “Dangerous falsehoods are being promulgated to the American public. The Quran does not preach violence against Christians.

Juan Cole backs all his arguments with verses directly from the Qur'an. Of course there will be those of any religion who distort it to say otherwise.

[uppityperson]

145. Thank you

[Yorktown]

147. Is Juan Cole joking?

Destroying these miserable excuses for reasoning would be like shooting fish in barrel.

Just a few, right of the bat:

10. The Qur’an assures Christians and Jews of paradise if they believe and do good works

Zakir Naik is on record saying the contrary, in a most foul manner I could elaborate upon.

3. It is forbidden to attempt to impose Islam on other people.
4. Islamic law forbids aggressive warfare.

This Juan Cole shoul take up being a professional comedian. See these quotes here?

Koran 2:191 "Make war on the infidels living in your neighborhood." Koran 9:123 "When opportunity arises, kill the infidels wherever you catch them."

1. Terrorism or hirabah is forbidden in Islamic law, which groups it with brigandage, highway robbery and extortion rackets

That one is too funny.

That's how muhamad started his Islam business: by brigandage and highway robbery of the Meccan caravans.

Hitchens was right when he called Cole a Muslim apologist.

[Mnpaul]

148. Hitchens?

are you really going to cite that drunken idiot as proof?

“Will an Iraq war make our Al Qaeda problem worse? Not likely.”

[Yorktown]

149. Hitch was wrong on Iraq and Cole is wrong on Islam

Forget my last Hitch quote.

I gave you examples why Cole is dead wrong.

Highway robbery forbidden in Islam. Too funny.

List of Battles
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_expeditions_of_Muhammad

No. Name Date Muhammad's order and reason for expedition Casualties description Notable primary sources

1 Al Is Caravan Raid 623 Raid Quraysh caravan to relieve themselves from poverty[5]

2 Batn Rabigh Caravan Raid 623 Raid Quraysh caravan to relieve themselves from poverty
Sahih al-Bukhari, 5:57 : 74
Ibn Sa'd, Kitab al-tabaqat al-kabir, Volume 2[7]

3 Kharar Caravan Raid May & June 623 Attack a Quraysh caravan
None, caravan left[2]
Ibn Sa'd, Kitab al-tabaqat al-kabir, Volume 2[7]

4 Invasion of Waddan August 623 [8][9] Attack a Quraysh caravan which included camels[4][8]
Unknown
Sahih al-Bukhari, 4:52:256
Ibn Hisham & Ibn Ishaq [10]

5 Invasion of Buwat October 623 [11][12] Raid a Quraysh caravan which included 200 camels[13][14]
None, caravan left [2]
Sahih Muslim, 42 : 7149
Ibn Hisham & Ibn Ishaq [14]

6 Invasion of Dul Ashir December 623 [15] Attack a Quraysh caravan[6]
None, caravan left [13][16]
Ibn Hisham & Ibn Ishaq [16]

[Mnpaul]

150. I'm guessing that you missed the disclaimer at the top

This article has multiple issues. Please help improve it or discuss these issues on the talk page.

This article relies too much on references to primary sources. (April 2015)
This article needs additional citations for verification. (April 2015)
Some or all of this article's listed sources may not be reliable. (April 2015)

[oberliner]

62. Republicans are people, too

Presumably, progressives care about them - since they are human beings.

However, the ideas that form the basis of Republicanism are attacked quite rigorously here.

And the people who choose to follow the belief system of conservatism are also often mocked and derided for doing so - especially because the most extreme Republicans believe in regressive ideas that most of us vehemently disagree with.

One should be as free to be critical of the belief system of Islam or Christianity or Judaism or any other religion in the same way that we are critical of Republicanism or conservatism or what have you.

If a writer went off on Republicans, would this be your response:

"Republicanism must be the worst, most awfulest evil thing ever. Now if course, all this writer could possibly know about Republicans is that they are connected to this belief system that he sees as the epitome of all evil.

So a faceless, meaningless horde of non-people defined exclusiely by all these evil things and hatreds, 150 million strong. But he doesn't hate Republicans. Sure he doesn't."

[smirkymonkey]

164. Good point!

[treestar]

56. the culture is Islam

what is wrong with defending that?

It's like any other.

The conflicts we have today are political. Each religion is inherently the same thing.

[ileus]

64. When everyone should defend both.

[Nonhlanhla]

65. Wow, I can't believe this thread.

[MrScorpio]

69. I like pie…

[bullwinkle428]

79. Technically, not pie charts - more like Venn diagrams!

Inner math geek surfaces every so often...

[MrScorpio]

152. I can dig it nt

[SidDithers]

72. ...

Sid

[whatthehey]

76. Do you really want answers?

Most (not all) Muslims are non-Caucasian and thus further up on the pecking order of "groups the ideologues on the left must support".

Most (not all) Muslims are poor and from poor countries, so again they are higher on that pecking order.

Religious privilege. If you think Santa exists you are nuts. If you think a SuperSanta created the world and also decides on prize or punishment on exactly the same basis as the guy in the red suit, we must respect your deeply held beliefs TM even if they come along with brutal misogyny and homophobia at best, and wholesale slaughter at worst.

A deep thread of white rich guilt that means any country or group that ever came off worst against rich white people, even if they had previously had a massive empire for centuries, including over rich white people, is only fucked up, and gets a permanent get out of jail free card, because the rich white countries did it to them. No amount of aid, support, trade, peace or anything else can ever make it not the rich white countries fault even after centuries.

[Democat]

80. Many DU Members Bash Right Wing Christians Relentlessly

But they don't do the same thing for other religious extremists.

This has been the case for a long time.

[whathehell]

82. +1000.

Huge cowardice and hypocrisy.

[whatthehey]

89. Again, Bullshit

Many of us criticize all religious extremism, bigotry and intolerance.

Do we do it to Xianity most? In the US sure, but for obvious reasons. Muslim wackos are only likely to affect me in the extremely remote tiny probability that I am at the scene of their next bombing. Jewish wackos are only likely to affect me if they refuse to sit next to a woman on my flight and insist I change seats. Xian wackos however are the ones that pass laws and enforce norms that affect me in the US every day. It's only Xian wackos who have ever threatened me or assaulted me for being an open atheist. But I don't live in Bangladesh, where it would be Muslim wackos.

I once attended a fascinating talk by an atheist leader from India. His life's work is debunking the magical nonsense claims of Hinduism and the myriad sub-cults. He didn't spend any of the talk worrying about abortion or Prop 8, for exactly the reason I don't generally spend any time talking about fake weeping statues (with hidden plumbing) in Indian temples. We discuss what affects us, and usually only comment on religious la-la-land idiocy that does not affect us in general terms.

[whathehell]

95. Again, I call bullshit to you....

Next.

[whatthehey]

120. How many examples do you want of this supposedly nonerxistent criticism of non-Xians?

Unlike you, I can back up my claims.

[whathehell]

159. As many as you can find

Last edited Thu Nov 19, 2015, 05:14 AM - Edit history (1)

Knock yourself out --We're all waiting!

[whatthehey]

166. How many will shut up your lies that it doesn't happen? I'm waiting...

[still_one]

167. enough is enough. Your point was made the first time. There is no rule that says someone has to

respond to a post

[whathehell]

172. Ten days after bragging about all those "examples" you had and you have NOTHING, LOL?

Looks like it's your lies we need to worry about.

[Arugula Latte]

136. Did it ever occur to you that's because the religious people doing most of the damage in

the United States are Christians? Worldwide, it's a different story, depending on the country.

Fuck religious fundamentalists of every stripe, but the Christian nutbags are the most numerous, powerful, and nefarious in the USA.

[itcfish]

88. My God!

I know many many Muslims. They are the most open loving charitable people. They are very educated. They celebrate Christmas because Jesus was their prophet. They help elderly Christian neighbors because they are elderly and need help. They have no agenda and do not want to convert anyone. All they want is to work, raise and educate their children and go on an occasional vacation. Do they pray 5 times a day? I don't know, never asked. Are the wives treated equally? from what I observe, the wives are the "bosses" Are their daughters treated like their sons? From what I see, yes! Would they ever hurt a fly? Never! Would they extend a helping hand? always. Are there evil muslims? Of course, just like there are evil Christians and Jews. ISIS is a political group created when we invaded and occupied Iraq.

[whatthehey]

94. That "political group" sure acts likes a religious group...

What's the political connection between the US invasion and the beheading of Yazidis, the bombing of Petra, and the enforcement of strict "modesty" for women in IS-controlled territory?

[itcfish]

102. They use religion

to control the masses. It's not a new concept. The rightwingers are doing here in the US now.

[whatthehey]

121. And they kill people over solely religious reasons

which makes religion a very real problem and causal factor.

Did they ask any Yazidis their opibion on the US invasion before killing them? After all a political group should kill political opponents, no? Not people of differentr religions.

[Octafish]

107. Every. Word. True.

Here in Detroit, people who are Muslim work and play with people who are Jewish, Catholic, agnostic, atheist, etc etc etc. And they are just like everybody else worth knowing: They are Good People.

Thank you, itcfish.

[Oilwellian]

118. I also agree

I do business with a local shop owner who is a Syrian immigrant. He and his family are lovely people. They're even people who I would defend, like a right winger defends guns.

[Octafish]

129. Our local hospital has a Syrian physician...

... a pediatric endocrinologist who is a genius. We're in Detroit and its suburbs. The people love him, for what he's done for so many kids.

[Arkana]

91. The culture of any conservative strain of religion is incompatible with progressivism.

Whether it's the nutjob snake handlers down south, the hyper-conservative Jewish Israel defenders, or the Islamic nutjobs who treat women like property and kill innocents, it DOES. NOT. MATTER.

[earthside]

93. Most encouraging post in days here at DU.

I was beginning to despair that reason, logic, debate and discussion were becoming forbidden here.


It is a very good article ...

This is what I call the world of “reactionary politics.” If liberals are for it, conservatives are against it and visa versa. It makes absolutely no sense, based upon normal political ideologies, why liberals would defend Islam. If I write something mocking Mormonism, Catholics, Baptists or Scientology, I’ll rarely see a single complaint from liberals. Yet on an article such as this, I’ll get slammed relentlessly and called a bigot and a racist for pointing out facts.

For the record, Islam is not a race – it’s a religion.

It never ceases to make me laugh when I’m told by liberals that I’m intolerant of Islam, therefore a bigot, whenever I use the same arguments against Islam that I do Christianity. The hypocrisy is palpable.

Read more at: http://www.forwardprogressives.com/many-liberals-defend-islam-way-gun-fanatics-defend-gun-violence/

[davidn3600]

96. To most in here.....Christianity is the only bad religion

[itcfish]

97. Nobody Said

Christianity is the only bad religion. In fact, Christianity is one of the few religions that actually laughs at itself and that allows for tolerance IMO, well at least in most Christian churches. All religions who promote hate, discrimination and murder are bad religions! Believe what you want. Respect others and keep your religion out of my government and keep the government out of my religion. And above all do not attempt to shove your religion down my throat! Thank you!

[Iggo]

110. Almost certainly bullshit.

[Arugula Latte]

132. Nope. But it gets the most attention here because it does the most damage here.

[6000eliot]

157. They are all equally bad from my own point of view.

Fortunately for the believers of the world, I do not get to impose my ideas on them.

Islam as a religion is no more violent, sexist, and homophobic than Christianity, and I also know that if Christian extremists had their way, the world wouldn't look much different for women and LGBT people than it does under Islamic extremists.

[6000eliot]

158. They are all equally bad from my own point of view.

Fortunately for the believers of the world, I do not get to impose my ideas on them.

Islam as a religion is no more violent, sexist, and homophobic than Christianity, and I also know that if Christian extremists had their way, the world wouldn't look much different for women and LGBT people than it does under Islamic extremists.

[cpwm17]

98. Muslims are not uniquely violent:

The 25 highest percentages of national populations killed during periods of mass brutality:

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/atrox.htm

If you look carefully at the chart with the intention of determining which race, religion or ideology has been the most brutal, you'll see a pattern emerge. It's quite a startling pattern, so I'd rather you find it by yourself. Go back and take a second look. I'll meet you at the next paragraph after I explain that, honestly, I did not manipulate the data. I simply took the most likely death toll (military and civilian) among the natives of each country (such as all the South Vietnamese -- ARVN soldiers, civilians and Viet Cong -- who were killed in the Vietnam War), and divided it by the population of that country (prewar). I didn't take, say, only the military dead, or only the victims of genocide. I didn't arbitrarily decide to split one horror into two in order to make each seem smaller (the only borderline case is that I calculated the Russians dead from WW2 and Stalin separately. A judgement call.), or eliminate countries of a certain size. No, I had no predetermined point to prove. I did the math and let the chips fall where they would. (Here are the raw numbers if you want to check behind me.)

That's why I was so startled to discover that there is absolutely no pattern to the chart. If I had simply picked 25 countries out of a hat, I could not have gotten a more diverse spread than we've got here. We've got rich countries and poor countries; industrial and agrarian; big and small. We've got people of all colors -- white, black, yellow and brown -- widely represented among both the slaughterers and the slaughterees. We've got Christians, Moslems, Buddhists and Atheists all butchering one another in the name of their various gods or lack thereof. Among the perpetrators, we've got political leanings of the left, right and middle; some are monarchies; some are dictatorships and some are even democracies. We've got innocent victims invaded by big, bad neighbors, and we've got plenty of countries who brought it on themselves, sowing the wind and reaping the whirlwind. Go on -- take a third look. Find any type of country that is not represented among the agents of a major blooding, and probably the only reason for that is that there aren't that many countries in that category to begin with (There are no Hindu or Jewish countries on the chart, but then, there's only one of each on the whole planet, and they're both waiting in the wings among the next 25.).

In a way, it's rather disheartening to realize that we can't smugly blame the brutality of the century on the Communists, or the imperialists, or the Moslem fundamentalists, or the godless. Every major category of human has done it's share to boost the body count, so replacing, say, Moslem rulers with Christian rulers, or white rulers with black rulers, is not going to change it at all.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

101. Islam is a religion. A gun is a specifically designed deadly weapon.

[Rebkeh]

105. Religion is not inherently dangerous

Last edited Thu Nov 19, 2015, 12:30 AM - Edit history (1)

The key point here is the inherent nature of religion, which is not harmful at all. Let's stay on point and discuss the core issue - those who have distorted religion have changed public perception of religion as a whole. Allowing its distortion to be center stage is, ironically, aiding the enemy.

Guns, while not inherently dangerous until someone pulls a trigger, are designed for one function and one function only - to destroy. We are too irresponsible to have them, but since they are physical objects, we can regulate them.

You cannot regulate religious belief. You cannot regulate belief at all, of any kind.

Lastly, we also must avoid the mistake of allowing people like Maher to hide behind his so-called atheism (*ahem*, anti-theism) to support what amounts to bigotry.

Islam is not on trial here. It shouldn't be. Intolerance and hate are on trial and I see this sleight-of-hand for exactly what it is.

[hifiguy]

116. Religion IS inherently destructive and oppressive.

Every "holy book" of the Abrahamic religions has dozens upon dozens of passages about how the Invisible Man in the Sky demands that the True Believers go out and annihilate/rape/torture/conquer/terrorize/convert by force the unbelieving heathens and that they are Good in his eyes for doing so

This undeniable brute fact has been catalogued so many times it would be well beyond redundant to do so here.

[Rebkeh]

128. These books say all kinds of things,

good, bad and neutral things. Believers do all, some or none of them. People make choices, and people should be given credit or held accountable for their behavior.

Religion is neither moral nor immoral, it's simply available to do what you will with it.

And, by the way, do anti-theists realize that stamping out religion is unconstitutional anyway? Not only that but it also violates basic civil liberties. Freedom to worship as one sees fit is as basic a right as it gets.

[Rex]

106. A killing machine and someones belief system are not equal.

One has a sole purpose and the other can be from a variety of things.

[reddread]

108. what does Bill Maher know about being a liberal?

This muslim phobia PR reeks of familiarity...

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/interview/henryford-antisemitism/

[Paladin]

125. Exactly so. Maher has devolved into a world-class Islamophobe.

And this thread is flame bait, by the way......

[hifiguy]

113. True, and the hypocrisy stinks so badly

it would knock a vulture off a shit-wagon.

This atheist is thoroughly sick of it.

[lame54]

122. Bad Bad start to this article...

I'm not racist but...

[Avalux]

123. I am so fucking sick of labels.

I detest religion personally, but if a person chooses to practice a religion and does so without harm, who am I to say anything against it? There are aspects of Islam that promote love and peace, just as there are in Christianity. But as we all know, religion has been twisted and contorted to justify the terrible behavior of humans for thousands of years.

It's the extremism we need to tackle. Not the peaceful families in their homes praying to Allah or God, or whomever.

[qwlauren35]

124. I think

Persia was an example of a modernized Islamic country. So it is possible. I also think that the Muslims who migrate to the US or Europe know that they'll have to leave some of their conservative anti-x views behind, although some import their wives...

It will be interesting to see what the Syrians bring to the US. Whether they can deal with our "Western Ways" or whether they try to create islands of Muslim conservatism. Personally, I think the women won't go for it.

Freedom is very tasty.

[kcr]

127. I'm confused. Liberals are bigoted against guns?

That is one hell of a convoluted argument, there.

[Arugula Latte]

131. I don't hate Muslims, Christians, Jews, Hindus, what have you ...

but I do think that their belief systems are nonsensical, mythology-based, harmful, and frankly just fucking stupid. I'm not talking about secular Jews who identify with the culture, or Buddhists who basically believe in a philosophy for daily living, and the like, but, sorry, it is just lunacy to believe that a supernatural man-deity came back from the dead or a prophet from Mecca rode his winged horse to Heaven. And let's not even begin to talk about all the horrible misogynistic, homophobic bullshit that this magical thinking engenders and justifies.

A pox on all religions, but not a pox on religious people, is kind of how I feel.

[Lorien]

156. People assume that every person from a "Muslim" Nation is Muslim

They aren't. I defend Syrians because they are human beings in need. I never defend organized religions.

[loyalsister]

169. +1

I've noticed that people tend to conflate religions with the people who observe them. Not.that.same.thing. The people are real and they feel bigotry on a personal level. Their children encounter it and parents are stuck explaining hate to 5 yr. olds and trying to reassure them that they should be proud of themselves anyway.

As an atheist, I have nothing to defend or claim. I am just concerned with the absent common decency that we see in regard to people who identify as muslim.

[KingCharlemagne]

170. Many pseudo-liberals and ignoramuses create false equivalences and

Fallacious analogies.

What is your real agenda in publishing such easily debunked tripe?????

[loyalsister]

171. Islam or the people who are harmed by rampan Islamaphobia in the US?

I don't defend or endorse any religious beliefs. But, I do stand against the individuals who demonize people by making them responsible for and associating them with people who have taken the text they both read from to extremes.