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liberalnarb

(4,532 posts)
Wed Nov 25, 2015, 09:49 PM Nov 2015

40% Of Millenials Say The Government Should Be Able To Step In And Censor Peoples Speech If It Is

Considered Offensive. Pew Research polled people from several different generations, Silent, Baby Boomers, and Millennials, and the results are interesting. 40% of millennials polled said that they believe that the government should be able to take action to prevent people from giving speeches with content that may offend someone in a minority group. Would this be an infringement on freedom of speech or is it a way to prevent racist violence? Either way Donald Trump had better watch his step.


The Young Turks give their side:


114 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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40% Of Millenials Say The Government Should Be Able To Step In And Censor Peoples Speech If It Is (Original Post) liberalnarb Nov 2015 OP
I disagree profoundly with the 40% n/t Agnosticsherbet Nov 2015 #1
Me too SickOfTheOnePct Nov 2015 #3
+1000. Hortensis Nov 2015 #104
Me too! Snow Leopard Nov 2015 #109
Same here. Initech Nov 2015 #113
Apparently 40% of millennials need to take a civics class. n/t X_Digger Nov 2015 #2
Yep! We all better watch our step if that happens brush Nov 2015 #59
+1,000,000! If this is an accurate figure, I despair for that demographic. MADem Nov 2015 #74
They might find it too offensive. n/t Crunchy Frog Nov 2015 #77
If they did, it was from Texas text books... Thor_MN Nov 2015 #99
The dumbing down of America is working just like the 1% planned. hobbit709 Nov 2015 #4
Exactly so. Even the "smart ones" are gleefully fucking themselves over. nt villager Nov 2015 #58
'Offense' is subjective. But hate speech should be cracked down upon. Yorktown Nov 2015 #5
No thanks n/t SickOfTheOnePct Nov 2015 #6
Thanks, but no. JonLeibowitz Nov 2015 #8
I guarantee that if they were permitted, the first prosecutions for "hate speech" in this country Nye Bevan Nov 2015 #12
Exactly. Or a contrived case against Muslims. JonLeibowitz Nov 2015 #15
Imagine the War on Christmas where we get classified as enemy combatants LittleBlue Nov 2015 #21
As an atheist, just my existence would be considered hate speech. nt. FLPanhandle Nov 2015 #23
Or someone in a blue state cracking down on Christian anti-gay rhetoric XemaSab Nov 2015 #108
Civil liberties are always balanced against public safety Yorktown Nov 2015 #13
Ding Ding Ding! JonLeibowitz Nov 2015 #17
Your article raises straw men Yorktown Nov 2015 #27
A President Trump would love you FLPanhandle Nov 2015 #28
I already mentioned the comfort zone is large between anarchy and tyranny Yorktown Nov 2015 #38
Actually, no. JonLeibowitz Nov 2015 #33
That amuses me, especially here at DU Yorktown Nov 2015 #42
DU is a privately owned site SickOfTheOnePct Nov 2015 #44
There is no right to not be offended, and no law prohibiting the taking of offense. JonLeibowitz Nov 2015 #45
I stated I disagreed with the law on this topic Yorktown Nov 2015 #83
This isn't the public square. This is a club, a private website, a place with owners who have MADem Nov 2015 #75
My comment was not about the owners but the hide alerters and jurors Yorktown Nov 2015 #79
All a HIDE is, is a comment by the community that the remark was rude. MADem Nov 2015 #80
Not always. Some alerts can 'cleverly' point to a post which can only offend out of context Yorktown Nov 2015 #82
Oh sure--a bogus hide from a partisan, I know what you mean. MADem Nov 2015 #84
'Zactly Yorktown Nov 2015 #86
When the government can say you can't say something because it is offensive, Yo_Mama Nov 2015 #76
Again, it has to be a balance: civil liberties vs public safety Yorktown Nov 2015 #93
It's sophistry to think there must be a balance. NutmegYankee Nov 2015 #94
Uh, no, they aren't, not in the context of free expression of ideas that someone else may not like. Warren DeMontague Nov 2015 #95
A terribly inappropriate analogy. Words and ideas do not become dangerous until Yo_Mama Nov 2015 #105
Fuck that shit. n/t X_Digger Nov 2015 #20
And Christians? Oneironaut Nov 2015 #25
I started off saying offensive speech is OK Yorktown Nov 2015 #31
I did target a group. That's the point. :) Oneironaut Nov 2015 #34
No, your sentence is OK based on the grid I submitted Yorktown Nov 2015 #43
it's hard to prove someone incited violence if they didn't actually incite violence onenote Nov 2015 #73
Reasonable cause Yorktown Nov 2015 #78
Deferred incitement.. isn't a thing. X_Digger Nov 2015 #48
Well, hate speech laws exist in Europe, so they apparently managed to define it Yorktown Nov 2015 #51
Except hate speech laws in europe aren't about 'deferred incitement' so try again. That's.. novel. X_Digger Nov 2015 #54
I wrote that 'hate speech' was 'deferred incitement', and I stand by it Yorktown Nov 2015 #63
Bullshit SickOfTheOnePct Nov 2015 #65
My elephants are blue, therefore potato. Feel free to propose your own definition. X_Digger Nov 2015 #66
Your caricature omits middle ground Yorktown Nov 2015 #81
You haven't defined that mushy middle. You've proposed something that's illogical. X_Digger Nov 2015 #100
Yay for Europe SickOfTheOnePct Nov 2015 #55
What's wrong with constitutional amendments? Yorktown Nov 2015 #62
If they're in place to protect freedoms, I'm all for them SickOfTheOnePct Nov 2015 #64
So, like the Czech Republic? Scootaloo Nov 2015 #35
Again, the distinction ideology/people Yorktown Nov 2015 #49
Hate crimes are defined first as crimes. joshcryer Nov 2015 #89
Hate speech is totally subjective. Donald Ian Rankin Nov 2015 #91
The definition of "hate speech" is subjective and will change dependng on the listener. Agnosticsherbet Nov 2015 #103
Sure, let's turn over control of what we can say to the government FLPanhandle Nov 2015 #7
the time machine DustyJoe Nov 2015 #47
Yep this is whats called autocracy liberalnarb Nov 2015 #60
Here a report by UK Channel 4 two days ago Yorktown Nov 2015 #53
"But... but.... there's a 'hate speech exception' to the First Amendment!" Nye Bevan Nov 2015 #9
And it's questionable. Yorktown Nov 2015 #14
Oh, they're all over this thread, already. Warren DeMontague Nov 2015 #96
The establishment thus figures out what candy they can use to lure the new generation... AZ Progressive Nov 2015 #10
Did they break it down at all? HuckleB Nov 2015 #11
Unfortunately no liberalnarb Nov 2015 #16
Indeed. -eom- HuckleB Nov 2015 #19
Most millennials are apolitical. joshcryer Nov 2015 #90
Taking offense is such bullshit. Waiting For Everyman Nov 2015 #18
Ugh. Sorry but there's no other word for this. Sheltered snowflakes nt riderinthestorm Nov 2015 #22
<-- Millenial. This is stupid. Oneironaut Nov 2015 #24
In my opinion liberalnarb Nov 2015 #26
Truth right here! FrodosPet Nov 2015 #36
I am not going to say I am surprised by this in the least nadinbrzezinski Nov 2015 #29
Yep, infringement of free speech. Waldorf Nov 2015 #30
So, a minority of them. n/t Scootaloo Nov 2015 #32
Good thing we allow them to speak! I am sure they are thankful. JonLeibowitz Nov 2015 #57
If 40% of a large population said that blacks and women shouldn't be able to vote... TipTok Nov 2015 #110
Fuck. That. Shit. hatrack Nov 2015 #37
I really hate everything about their stupid generation Reter Nov 2015 #39
That statement makes you absolutely no different from them. phleshdef Nov 2015 #40
Wow... liberalnarb Nov 2015 #41
What about free speech? mountain grammy Nov 2015 #56
Please elaborate. nt ChisolmTrailDem Nov 2015 #114
Part of the reason Trump is getting traction. redstateblues Nov 2015 #46
Thats true liberalnarb Nov 2015 #50
Ohh where did we go wrong. Alittleliberal Nov 2015 #52
Before its too late everyone must remember too... liberalnarb Nov 2015 #61
depends of course where the speech is--commencements aren't the city square MisterP Nov 2015 #67
Hate speech is not "offensive", it is incitement and is illegal in those countries like Germany Fred Sanders Nov 2015 #68
Fuck that. Throd Nov 2015 #70
So is history.....and who wants to fuck that? Fred Sanders Nov 2015 #71
Why do you assume the Ministry of Offense will support your positions? Throd Nov 2015 #72
You seriously think that the lesson of history is that taking away freedom of speech is a good idea? Donald Ian Rankin Nov 2015 #92
Because America has the 1st Amendment, fred. Warren DeMontague Nov 2015 #97
40% of millenials are ignorant dumbasses? Sounds about right. Throd Nov 2015 #69
Did they take this poll at Safe Space University? romanic Nov 2015 #85
So the minority of Millenials say that huh? Rex Nov 2015 #87
Hmm, seems corporate fascism is really gaining ground. joshcryer Nov 2015 #88
Young people are more accepting of gay rights, women's rights, immigrants, pampango Nov 2015 #98
A very dangerous path! Who are the deciders and the enforcers? Those thinking RKP5637 Nov 2015 #101
Yo, kids! Take a civics 101 class. leftofcool Nov 2015 #102
Civics is too triggering! romanic Nov 2015 #106
they don't like moving out of their parents house either... ileus Nov 2015 #107
They grew up on the internet The2ndWheel Nov 2015 #111
For context, here are the figures for some other countries (whole population) muriel_volestrangler Nov 2015 #112

brush

(53,758 posts)
59. Yep! We all better watch our step if that happens
Wed Nov 25, 2015, 11:33 PM
Nov 2015

To think that 40 percent of Millennials think that way.

Talk about slippery slope and an invitation to a demagogue to enforce their foolish beliefs.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
74. +1,000,000! If this is an accurate figure, I despair for that demographic.
Thu Nov 26, 2015, 01:02 AM
Nov 2015

Troubling, rather authoritarian attitude....

 

Yorktown

(2,884 posts)
5. 'Offense' is subjective. But hate speech should be cracked down upon.
Wed Nov 25, 2015, 10:08 PM
Nov 2015

Hate speech is a deferred incitement to violence and should be limited more.

Hate the blacks, hate the Jews, hate the Kuffars, all this has consequences down the road.

JonLeibowitz

(6,282 posts)
8. Thanks, but no.
Wed Nov 25, 2015, 10:16 PM
Nov 2015

Some of us in this country believe in civil liberties. Besides, who decides what is hate speech?

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
12. I guarantee that if they were permitted, the first prosecutions for "hate speech" in this country
Wed Nov 25, 2015, 10:21 PM
Nov 2015

would be by enthusiastic evangelical District Attorneys in Southern states, rushing to be the first person ever to put an American in prison for "blaspheming Christianity".

JonLeibowitz

(6,282 posts)
15. Exactly. Or a contrived case against Muslims.
Wed Nov 25, 2015, 10:23 PM
Nov 2015

The worst thing? Their approval ratings would skyrocket.

 

LittleBlue

(10,362 posts)
21. Imagine the War on Christmas where we get classified as enemy combatants
Wed Nov 25, 2015, 10:32 PM
Nov 2015

Ted Cruz gets to decide who's guilty.

Yeah no

XemaSab

(60,212 posts)
108. Or someone in a blue state cracking down on Christian anti-gay rhetoric
Thu Nov 26, 2015, 11:17 PM
Nov 2015

such as quoting the bible.

 

Yorktown

(2,884 posts)
13. Civil liberties are always balanced against public safety
Wed Nov 25, 2015, 10:21 PM
Nov 2015

It is not the civil liberty of a person suffering from dementia to walk about with an AK47.

Preaching mindless hate to an impressionable audience is equally dangerous.

 

Yorktown

(2,884 posts)
27. Your article raises straw men
Wed Nov 25, 2015, 10:45 PM
Nov 2015

What is referred to as the #1 fallacy in the article is not what I am saying.

Yes, as it is, the First has no hate speech exception. And I disagree.

In History, hate speech has been a potent weapon leading to mass deaths.

While it is difficult to define, granted, action is better than fascist or islamist hate speech.

imho.

 

Yorktown

(2,884 posts)
38. I already mentioned the comfort zone is large between anarchy and tyranny
Wed Nov 25, 2015, 11:06 PM
Nov 2015

Trump is a demagogue. Does he really have a tyrannical strain? I don't know and I don't think it matters: he's too over the top to be a credible threat.

JonLeibowitz

(6,282 posts)
33. Actually, no.
Wed Nov 25, 2015, 10:54 PM
Nov 2015
weapons have been the potent weapon leading to mass deaths.

Even forgetting fallacy #1 you hit several of the others, including #5 for certain.

And well, as it is, the constitution is the law of the land. Good luck getting an amendment passed banning hate speech. I'd love to see someone try.
 

Yorktown

(2,884 posts)
42. That amuses me, especially here at DU
Wed Nov 25, 2015, 11:14 PM
Nov 2015

Lots of people take offense over this or that phrasing, reporting at any whiff of un-PCness

But hate speech should be protected? I'd like to see some coherence.

SickOfTheOnePct

(7,290 posts)
44. DU is a privately owned site
Wed Nov 25, 2015, 11:18 PM
Nov 2015

We are here because the owners say we can be here.

If Skinner says I can't use hate speech, then I'm obliged to conform to his rules or leave. He can't punish me, fine me, put me in jail - he can just kick me off of the site.

That's completely different than the government banning hate speech.

FYI, the First Amendment doesn't apply here.

JonLeibowitz

(6,282 posts)
45. There is no right to not be offended, and no law prohibiting the taking of offense.
Wed Nov 25, 2015, 11:19 PM
Nov 2015

And besides, we're talking about a legal concept here, not the TOS for playing in someone else's sandbox which is understandably different.

Nice try, again!

 

Yorktown

(2,884 posts)
83. I stated I disagreed with the law on this topic
Thu Nov 26, 2015, 02:27 AM
Nov 2015

Opinions about concepts should be protected.

But I question the wisdom of not tackling hate speech suggesting violence directed at some group or in support of violent groups.

For instance, would speech extolling ISIS and suggesting to join them be protected?

MADem

(135,425 posts)
75. This isn't the public square. This is a club, a private website, a place with owners who have
Thu Nov 26, 2015, 01:06 AM
Nov 2015

ideas about the types of conversations they want to see here. We are guests in THEIR home, in essence.

You want to shoot your mouth off and say things that don't 'go over' here? You're welcome to go do that elsewhere--but here we're supposed to operate within the TOS.

There's a line in the TOS that says the admins can toss a person over the side if they don't like them or if they make DU suck.

 

Yorktown

(2,884 posts)
79. My comment was not about the owners but the hide alerters and jurors
Thu Nov 26, 2015, 02:10 AM
Nov 2015

Irony is quite frequently taken literaly. Disclaimers are advised whenever parallels are used.

In effect, a noticeable percentage of people in action not word lean toward restricted speech.

But in word here, free speech seems to be taken as untouchable, even vs hate speech.

I am just noting an amusing contradiction.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
80. All a HIDE is, is a comment by the community that the remark was rude.
Thu Nov 26, 2015, 02:13 AM
Nov 2015

You have to click to see it. It's not really hidden or censored--it's just tucked behind a link.

 

Yorktown

(2,884 posts)
82. Not always. Some alerts can 'cleverly' point to a post which can only offend out of context
Thu Nov 26, 2015, 02:21 AM
Nov 2015

or to an image which is meant as figurative, but pointed at with a literal comment.

Don't tell me you never noticed these tricks played by some to silence opinions they disliked.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
84. Oh sure--a bogus hide from a partisan, I know what you mean.
Thu Nov 26, 2015, 02:44 AM
Nov 2015

I don't like your candidate so I'm going to deliberately misread what you wrote, take faux offense, and demand that a jury misread the post as well, along candidate lines...

Yo_Mama

(8,303 posts)
76. When the government can say you can't say something because it is offensive,
Thu Nov 26, 2015, 01:08 AM
Nov 2015

the government controls the citizens, rather than the citizens controlling the government, because if the government can control what people say to each other, the government can control political discussion.

When Skinner creates a discussion website or someone walks into a church, that is a private area, and membership/participation is voluntary and has its own rules.

The difference between what the government mandates and what private voluntary associations mandate should be obvious.

f you are a committed conservative, you lose nothing by not being allowed to promote your views on DU. If you are a devout Catholic, you lose nothing by someone railing against Catholics in a fundamentalist church. If you are a vegan, nothing about your life changes because the local steak house is doing a roaring business. If you are a Christian Scientist, nothing about your life changes because I go to the urgent care clinic for a bad respiratory infection.

If the government decides what is hate speech, it will always be speech against those in power at the moment. Not only that, but we will all be locked in fruitless battle about what is hate speech ALL THE TIME. Everyone will lose freedom.

The government does not protect hate speech. The government protects the basic civil rights of individuals without regard to their speech.

 

Yorktown

(2,884 posts)
93. Again, it has to be a balance: civil liberties vs public safety
Thu Nov 26, 2015, 08:20 AM
Nov 2015

Britain is about to change its laws to make it permissible to crack on islamist hate speech.

Rightly so, as islamists are trying to pit one community against another,

through violence if need be.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
95. Uh, no, they aren't, not in the context of free expression of ideas that someone else may not like.
Thu Nov 26, 2015, 08:54 AM
Nov 2015

There is a reason the 1st Amendment was put first.

Yo_Mama

(8,303 posts)
105. A terribly inappropriate analogy. Words and ideas do not become dangerous until
Thu Nov 26, 2015, 10:07 PM
Nov 2015

someone decides to act on them. A person with dementia is unable to even decide. That's why they are not allowed to drive or carry weapons. They can't function.

The "impressionable audience" you are discussing is the populace. The voters. If they are too feeble and unwise to listen to bad ideas and discard them, then obviously they are incapable of electing a government that will likewise reject these ideas.

You are preaching an idea that is the enemy of democracy.

Democracy achieves a high overall level of decency and public safety. You are advocating tyranny, and that's all you are advocating.

Oneironaut

(5,490 posts)
25. And Christians?
Wed Nov 25, 2015, 10:42 PM
Nov 2015

Many right wing Christians in the US are whiny, entitled, and uninformed about even their own religion.

Oops, I just committed hate speech. I guess the SWAT team is going to break down my door now and arrest me for hate speech against Christianity. Actually, they won't because we're better than that as a country.

 

Yorktown

(2,884 posts)
31. I started off saying offensive speech is OK
Wed Nov 25, 2015, 10:50 PM
Nov 2015

It is perfectly OK to say Christianity is nonsense. That's a view I incidentally share.

It's OK to criticize any ideology. The problem starts when you target a group.

If I say all {insert neme of group here} are {insert expletives here} and should be {insert form of violence here}, it's not OK.

The SCOTUS only gives a no-no to incitement to immediate violence. I disagree.

Incitement to deferred violence repeated over time is equally very dangerous. imho.

Oneironaut

(5,490 posts)
34. I did target a group. That's the point. :)
Wed Nov 25, 2015, 10:56 PM
Nov 2015

Many people think that criticizing Christianity is hate speech. If these people got into government, they would be able to carry out punishment against what they perceive to be hate speech because hate speech is so subjective.

Example:

All right wing Christians are whiny and entitled, and should be mocked. The previous statement might be considered hate speech. It might also viewed as inciting violence because it's 'encouraging persecution' of Christians.

 

Yorktown

(2,884 posts)
43. No, your sentence is OK based on the grid I submitted
Wed Nov 25, 2015, 11:17 PM
Nov 2015
All right wing Christians are whiny and entitled, and should be mocked.


OK, you did target a group, but you did not incite violence.

Anyway, some right wing Christians are not whiny and entitled,

maybe.

onenote

(42,660 posts)
73. it's hard to prove someone incited violence if they didn't actually incite violence
Thu Nov 26, 2015, 12:23 AM
Nov 2015

The reason that the violence has to be immediately caused by the speech is that otherwise it's impossible to prove what "incited" the violence.

 

Yorktown

(2,884 posts)
78. Reasonable cause
Thu Nov 26, 2015, 02:06 AM
Nov 2015

If you tell 100 times a complicit congregation that {group X} is scum which deserves {violence Y} one day, you know it's not going to end well.

X_Digger

(18,585 posts)
48. Deferred incitement.. isn't a thing.
Wed Nov 25, 2015, 11:21 PM
Nov 2015

That's kind of part and parcel of the definition of speech inciting lawless action.

And yes, yes, we get it, your sacred cow would never get gored on those horns.


 

Yorktown

(2,884 posts)
51. Well, hate speech laws exist in Europe, so they apparently managed to define it
Wed Nov 25, 2015, 11:26 PM
Nov 2015

And if you are referring to religion as my sacred cow, I have a herd of cows then.

X_Digger

(18,585 posts)
54. Except hate speech laws in europe aren't about 'deferred incitement' so try again. That's.. novel.
Wed Nov 25, 2015, 11:29 PM
Nov 2015

They of the nature of 'disparaging' people based on their race, religion, nation of origin, etc.

 

Yorktown

(2,884 posts)
63. I wrote that 'hate speech' was 'deferred incitement', and I stand by it
Wed Nov 25, 2015, 11:41 PM
Nov 2015

European laws target hate speech, therefore deferred incitement.

One can't continuously spew hatred about one given group and not expect actual violence.

SickOfTheOnePct

(7,290 posts)
65. Bullshit
Wed Nov 25, 2015, 11:43 PM
Nov 2015

The blame falls on the people committing the violence, not the people exercising their right to free speech.

X_Digger

(18,585 posts)
66. My elephants are blue, therefore potato. Feel free to propose your own definition.
Wed Nov 25, 2015, 11:56 PM
Nov 2015

But don't be surprised when nobody gives a flip what you call it in the face of what everyone else does.

If you want european style hate speech laws in the US, then don't hide behind contrived definitions that sound similar to something that is already not protected speech.

e.g. Australia: - "The Act makes it "unlawful for a person to do an act, otherwise than in private, if the act is reasonably likely, in all the circumstances, to offend, insult, humiliate or intimidate another person or a group of people; and the act is done because of the race, colour or national or ethnic origin of the other person, or of some or all of the people in the group."

France: "Articles 32 and 33 prohibit anyone from publicly defaming or insulting a person or group for belonging or not belonging, in fact or in fancy, to an ethnicity, a nation, a race, a religion, a sex, or a sexual orientation, or for having a handicap. "

Denmark: "Any person who, publicly or with the intention of disseminating ... makes a statement ... threatening (trues), insulting (forhånes), or degrading (nedværdiges) a group of persons on account of their race, national or ethnic origin or belief shall be liable to a fine or to simple detention or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years."

Good luck trying to get such an amendment passed here.

 

Yorktown

(2,884 posts)
81. Your caricature omits middle ground
Thu Nov 26, 2015, 02:16 AM
Nov 2015

Europe is going too far the other way, criminalizing criticism.

But hate speech is more than mere criticism, it's preaching violence.

It's not the same to say 'religion X is silly' (which is OK, but barely in Europe), and to say'(un)believers in Y should be subjugated/repressed/whatever'.

The fact you do not see the vast expanse between these two possible statements leaves only place for a discussion of blue elephants and potatoes, as you suggest.

X_Digger

(18,585 posts)
100. You haven't defined that mushy middle. You've proposed something that's illogical.
Thu Nov 26, 2015, 10:21 AM
Nov 2015

Until you can put out something other than this nonsensical 'deferred incitement', all you have left is Europe's model.

SickOfTheOnePct

(7,290 posts)
55. Yay for Europe
Wed Nov 25, 2015, 11:29 PM
Nov 2015

Not interested in doing that here, not to mention the fact that absent a Constitutional amendment, it can't be done.

SickOfTheOnePct

(7,290 posts)
64. If they're in place to protect freedoms, I'm all for them
Wed Nov 25, 2015, 11:42 PM
Nov 2015

If they're in place to take away freedoms, not so much.

Plus there is no way such an amendment would pass.

 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
35. So, like the Czech Republic?
Wed Nov 25, 2015, 10:57 PM
Nov 2015
http://www.romea.cz/en/news/czech/czech-authorities-indict-leader-of-anti-islam-movement-for-inciting-hatred-on-facebook#.VlYraT9hrDQ.facebook

The chair of the Bloc against Islam, Martin Konvička, was charged on 18 November with inciting hatred against Muslims because of remarks he has posted to Facebook. His legal representative, Klára Samková, announced the news to journalists yesterday.

...

The Justice Minister had tweeted the following on 17 November, without any further details: "Paragraph 356 Penal Code: Whosoever incites the hatred of any (...) religion (...) will be punished by deprivation of liberty for up to two years." According to the media, his tweet was a reference to a demonstration that took place at Albertov in Prague that day involving the Bloc against Islam and Czech President Miloš Zeman.
 

Yorktown

(2,884 posts)
49. Again, the distinction ideology/people
Wed Nov 25, 2015, 11:23 PM
Nov 2015

It is OK to be opposed to Islam. The text of Islam is opposed to secular democracy.

It's another to incite violence against Muslims.

From your excerpt, the indictment is OK if Martin Konvička incited violence or hatred vs Muslims. But the text of "Paragraph 356 Penal Code" is dangerously worded if it forbids "hatred of any (...) religion".

I hate nazism, facism and most religions. Hate is maybe a strong word, but I resolutely object to the Torah, Old Testament and Quran. And the NT is incoherent chatter.

joshcryer

(62,269 posts)
89. Hate crimes are defined first as crimes.
Thu Nov 26, 2015, 04:01 AM
Nov 2015

The hate part is the rationale for the crime.

Someone gets robbed on the street it's theft.

Someone gets into a fight on the street in a drunken brawl it's assault.

Someone gets beaten on the street while racial epithets are spewed it's a hate crime.

Saying something hateful and no crimes happen because of it is not a hate crime, it's just someone being hateful.

I myself have been called many hateful, libelous things, by very disturbed individuals. I would not want their hate speech to be restrained.

Donald Ian Rankin

(13,598 posts)
91. Hate speech is totally subjective.
Thu Nov 26, 2015, 05:01 AM
Nov 2015

The phrase "hate speech" is a dangerous one. It doesn't actually mean anything, but it lets people oppose freedom of speech while telling themselves that that's not what they're doing it.

Agnosticsherbet

(11,619 posts)
103. The definition of "hate speech" is subjective and will change dependng on the listener.
Thu Nov 26, 2015, 10:28 AM
Nov 2015

For some, hate speech is criticizing the religion of the majority, being openly gay, or contributing money to the wrong political party.

DustyJoe

(849 posts)
47. the time machine
Wed Nov 25, 2015, 11:20 PM
Nov 2015

the Eloi in HG Wells time machine thought life was hunky dory not really much different than 40% millenials who seem to think being controlled is safer than freedom.

 

Yorktown

(2,884 posts)
53. Here a report by UK Channel 4 two days ago
Wed Nov 25, 2015, 11:29 PM
Nov 2015

In it, radical Mulism women advertise the ISIS caliphate in private 'Tupperware' sessions.

Is it free speech?


Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
96. Oh, they're all over this thread, already.
Thu Nov 26, 2015, 08:56 AM
Nov 2015

Someome says something that maks someone else mad = "incitement!"

Waiting For Everyman

(9,385 posts)
18. Taking offense is such bullshit.
Wed Nov 25, 2015, 10:26 PM
Nov 2015

It's so nursery school.

Nobody with half a brain sacrifices RIGHTS to offenses.

Oneironaut

(5,490 posts)
24. <-- Millenial. This is stupid.
Wed Nov 25, 2015, 10:38 PM
Nov 2015

It's not the government's job to make sure that your fee fees aren't hurt. It should never have that job. Everybody has the right to be a jerk, no matter how offensive they are.

Somewhere along the line, these people lost the plot. Yes, offensive speech is bad. That doesn't mean it should be banned. Coming to that conclusion is not only stupid - it's dangerous.

 

liberalnarb

(4,532 posts)
26. In my opinion
Wed Nov 25, 2015, 10:45 PM
Nov 2015

I say we fight racism with education but not government. We need to raise well educated young people who are smart enough to know that racism and other bigotries are wrong. The government should not have to step in. If kids are brought up knowing that we are all one people and that race is completely insignificant to who you are then we will defeat racism.

FrodosPet

(5,169 posts)
36. Truth right here!
Wed Nov 25, 2015, 10:59 PM
Nov 2015

The trouble with "There oughta be a law" is that laws require enforcement. And what is another name for law enforcement? It will come to me any second now. It starts with a "P" I think.

 

TipTok

(2,474 posts)
110. If 40% of a large population said that blacks and women shouldn't be able to vote...
Fri Nov 27, 2015, 09:54 AM
Nov 2015

I imagine most would find that significant.

This is just as bad...

hatrack

(59,583 posts)
37. Fuck. That. Shit.
Wed Nov 25, 2015, 11:00 PM
Nov 2015

Pull your heads out, Precious Tech-Savvy Snowflakes.

"Now" would be a really good time to start doing so.

 

liberalnarb

(4,532 posts)
41. Wow...
Wed Nov 25, 2015, 11:14 PM
Nov 2015

I am a millennial I don't believe in limits on free speech but I find what you just said slightly odd. Your talking about jailing or deporting a huge amount of people because of the generation they belong to. I have to ask, are you Donald trump?

redstateblues

(10,565 posts)
46. Part of the reason Trump is getting traction.
Wed Nov 25, 2015, 11:19 PM
Nov 2015

I think it's BS but his "political correctness" crap has hit a nerve out there.

 

liberalnarb

(4,532 posts)
50. Thats true
Wed Nov 25, 2015, 11:24 PM
Nov 2015

the rethuglicans have always bitched about the PC police. But have you ever talked to one about what that actually means? I talked to a republican I know, and a republican family member. Apparently some republicans think that being politically correct means that you are a political insider, that you are a career politician, and others think it means not offending people. I like how trump is picking up speed based on a topic his supporters cant agree on the definition of.

Alittleliberal

(528 posts)
52. Ohh where did we go wrong.
Wed Nov 25, 2015, 11:26 PM
Nov 2015

No thanks! The first amendment doesn't have a qualifier. Who makes the decision on what is or isn't offensive? It's clear that our education system is broken because 40% of Millennials have no understanding of history. You couldn't possibly think it was okay unless you had no idea how authoritarian governments have used the suppression of free speech to shut down schools, news organizations, laboratories and to silence political opposition.

Bleeping out curse words on the radio isn't the censorship you'll have to worry about. Censoring of ideas and discussion is the antithesis of intellectualism. Letting the most recent crop of sociopaths that rule us decide what speech is or isn't offensive is a recipe for locking up anyone who speaks out against the status queue or injustice. Fascism is right around the corner.

MisterP

(23,730 posts)
67. depends of course where the speech is--commencements aren't the city square
Wed Nov 25, 2015, 11:57 PM
Nov 2015

but we have seen aggression against the media

Fred Sanders

(23,946 posts)
68. Hate speech is not "offensive", it is incitement and is illegal in those countries like Germany
Thu Nov 26, 2015, 12:09 AM
Nov 2015

and France...can folks guess the reason?

Why does America think itself so special it refuses to learn from history?

Throd

(7,208 posts)
72. Why do you assume the Ministry of Offense will support your positions?
Thu Nov 26, 2015, 12:19 AM
Nov 2015

Under President Trump your rantings will be considered a security threat and harmful to public order.

Donald Ian Rankin

(13,598 posts)
92. You seriously think that the lesson of history is that taking away freedom of speech is a good idea?
Thu Nov 26, 2015, 05:02 AM
Nov 2015

There are many ways in which European politics is preferable to American. Freedom of speech is not one of them.

You can't ban speech you don't like without opening the door to e.g. banning the burka, which France has also done.

The only way to protect the freedom to be right is to protect the freedom to be wrong.
 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
87. So the minority of Millenials say that huh?
Thu Nov 26, 2015, 03:53 AM
Nov 2015

Just think in what decade they grew up in and you can see why.

pampango

(24,692 posts)
98. Young people are more accepting of gay rights, women's rights, immigrants,
Thu Nov 26, 2015, 09:10 AM
Nov 2015

refugees, multiculturalism and diversity.

All that is great and cause for Trump and his fellow right wingers to see what the future holds for their fading brand of hate and fear politics.

The bad news is that young people feel the evilness of RW politics so much that too many are willing to sacrifice basic rights to fight against it.

RKP5637

(67,101 posts)
101. A very dangerous path! Who are the deciders and the enforcers? Those thinking
Thu Nov 26, 2015, 10:25 AM
Nov 2015

they are on the correct side might well find themselves in the wrong. Consider, for example, a totalitarian dictatorship.

As another example, I once had a friend that thought nothing bad should be allowed to be said about Bush during or after the US Iraq invasion.

romanic

(2,841 posts)
106. Civics is too triggering!
Thu Nov 26, 2015, 10:35 PM
Nov 2015

Now the "Getting Dressed" course (http://www.princeton.edu/pr/pwb/01/1112/3a.shtml) is much more useful for today's modern world. Who needs free speech when you can learn how powerful clothes can be?

The2ndWheel

(7,947 posts)
111. They grew up on the internet
Fri Nov 27, 2015, 10:12 AM
Nov 2015

It's easy to filter out anything you don't like on the internet. They're bringing their reality to real life, as each generation does.

The thing about life is you never know where it's going.

muriel_volestrangler

(101,294 posts)
112. For context, here are the figures for some other countries (whole population)
Fri Nov 27, 2015, 10:21 AM
Nov 2015
http://www.pewglobal.org/files/2015/11/Pew-Research-Center-Democracy-Report-FINAL-November-18-2015.pdf (p.33)

Canada 37%
France 48%
Germany 70%
Italy 62%
Poland 50%
UK 38%
Australia 36%
Japan 79%
South Korea 56%

There isn't an obvious consensus on this, in the developed world.
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