I hope people understand that there is a real possibility of another civil war in America

[whereisjustice]

There's a power vacuum created by the lack of any challenge to the right wing political direction in this country. Even Democrats are encouraged to embrace conservative ideologies regarding crime, war, corporations, etc.

While these policies are wholeheartedly embraced by Republicans, to a somewhat lesser extent they are also embraced by Democrats, thanks to the pragmatic system of letting Wall Street money write our legislative policy.

No one is willing to aggressively challenge the right wing policies creating huge pockets of poverty and disparity of justice. Not Bill, not Hillary, not Obama.

As a result, conservatives have become emboldened. They have no fear of serious counter attack. They own the narrative. That's because strong individuals who are willing to call out the corruption and fraud holding our Government captive will never pass the Wall Street audition. So we settle for more of the same.

Severe tension is building in America. Rich versus non-rich. Religious versus non-religious.

With some help from the violent power of our local police force, Democrats and Republicans have been helping the rich defeat the non-rich. Every single motion our Congress makes, is made to the benefit of the rich, to the punishment of the non-rich.

Making things worse for the non-rich, the mainstream political class has taken away our voice and ridiculed us for demonstrating against the injustice. Whisteblowers are punished. Our most corrupt institutions NSA, FBI, CIA, DOJ, FDA, etc have been turned into bunkers against accountability.

All the well-know toxic ingredients for disparity and extremism are being dumped into a giant cauldron. Just how long do you think it can stay this way?

Is Wall Street going to rush in at the last minute and save us?

No. They'll happily sell weapons and chaos to both sides of the fight.

[cantbeserious]

1. Know Thy Enemy - Oligarchs, Corporations, Banks And Their Media Minions And MIC Henchmen

eom

[jwirr]

22. Very good point and for the most part we do not know who

is the owners of that group of fronts. IF we were to have a real war against them it would be very hard to know who is who.

[cantbeserious]

34. Start With The Wealthiest - Work Down The List - Sooner Or Later - The 1% Evil Will End

eom

[jwirr]

35. LOL Thanks. I will be there with you.

[villager]

2. Then add the collapse of Empire, when Climate Change kicks in even more

The ugly right here will go into overdrive, looking for those to "blame."

And it won't be the oligarchs.

Expect America to have broken up into a handful of smaller, constituent pieces by mid-century or so....

[Lizzie Poppet]

6. I have the same expectation: a Soviet-style breakup.

I'm basically okay with that (hail Cascadia!), but it will be frightfully complicated. But I also think such a breakup may well be our best chance to avoid an actual civil war, with a huge cost in blood and a big hit to an already suffering infrastructure.

[villager]

18. Pretty much agree on all points, Lizzie Poppet...

Including the "hail Cascadia," btw...

[cantbeserious]

38. Retrotopia - A Fictionalized And Serialized - Future America - After The Civil Wars

Retrotopia: Dawn Train from Pittsburgh
http://thearchdruidreport.blogspot.com/2015/08/retrotopia-dawn-train-from-pittsburgh.html

Retrotopia: The View from a Moving Window
http://thearchdruidreport.blogspot.com/2015/09/retrotopia-view-from-moving-window.html

Retrotopia: A Cab Ride in Toledo
http://thearchdruidreport.blogspot.com/2015/09/retrotopia-cab-ride-in-toledo.html

Retrotopia: Public Utilities, Private Goods
http://thearchdruidreport.blogspot.com/2015/09/retrotopia-public-utilities-private.html

Retrotopia: A Change of Habit
http://thearchdruidreport.blogspot.com/2015/09/retrotopia-change-of-habit.html

Retrotopia: The Scent of Ink on Paper
http://thearchdruidreport.blogspot.com/2015/10/retrotopia-scent-of-ink-on-paper.html

Retrotopia: A Question of Subsidies
http://thearchdruidreport.blogspot.com/2015/10/retrotopia-question-of-subsidies.html

Retrotopia: Inflows and Outputs
http://thearchdruidreport.blogspot.com/2015/11/retrotopia-inflows-and-outputs.html

Retrotopia: A Visit to the Capitol
http://thearchdruidreport.blogspot.com/2015/11/retrotopia-visit-to-capitol.html

To be continued ...

[Nay]

56. I always read the AR and am really enjoying this story. I wish I could live

in Retrotopia, frankly.

[Doremus]

58. Thank you for posting these

I'm at work but they look like great reads for later. Thanks again!

[cantbeserious]

59. Always Welcome - Enjoy The Read - Enjoy The Reflection

eom

[Hoyt]

3. Could be right. My concern is some big natural disaster where factions fight for control.

[CrispyQ]

4. This:

No one is willing to aggressively challenge the right wing policies creating huge pockets of poverty and disparity of justice. Not Bill, not Hillary, not Obama.

As a result, conservatives have become emboldened. They have no fear of serious counter attack. They own the narrative. That's because strong individuals who are willing to call out the corruption a fraud holding our Government captive will never pass the Wall Street audition. So we settle for more of the same.

Well said.

[lovemydog]

122. I don't think conservatives have become emboldened.

Many of them always think they're losing. Just as many on the left think we're always losing.

Earl Sweatshirt's new album is called I Don't Like Shit, I Don't Go Outside. I think that summarizes the state of the nation.

[Lizzie Poppet]

5. Agreed. And as Villager points out...

...climate change and other factors could hasten the collapse of the union. I begin to suspect that the only way out of a bloody civil war may well be the breakup of the country, Soviet-Union-style. That's no panacea (we're not really all that geographically divided; that red state/blue state dichotomy is pretty false...we're all purple states), but it might stave off an actual, violent mass conflict.

In any case, yes: gross (and growing) economic inequity is shoving us down the path to violent unrest. At present, we're being kept just fat and happy enough to deter people from taking real action...but things are slipping more and more towards actual deprivation and desperation, and when that line is crossed, I'm thinking things will go to shit way, way faster than the powers-that-be expect.

[whereisjustice]

13. We had a collective morality on the side of justice during first CW, this time

I can find few Democrats at large who have any sense of empathy or moral courage. To be a good Democrat these days implies general agreement with conservative economics (i.e. corporate rule) and loose agreement on some social issues, civil rights, etc. For example, we are supposed to yield to powers of authority, NSA, local police, etc, but fight for gay rights. We are supposed to yield to Wall Street controlled health care, but support right to abortion.

The absurdity of these extremes is becoming nearly impossible to reconcile.

So without a Democratic Party willing to call out the injustice and build the right kind of leadership for the benefit of the nation, the non-rich and defenseless are going to get crushed during next civil war. The rise of a fascists like Trump ad Cruz proves how weak the Democratic Party has become. They are some of the most extreme candidates since the Civil War.

Too many guns, too much corporate control, too little courage fighting for what is right.

Our continued appeasement isn't making us stronger, it is making us weaker.

[CrispyQ]

17. A friend posted an image on FB of people fighting over TVs in some store.

Under it was the text: If we fight like this over TVs, what will we do when the food runs out?

You are right about it going to shit faster than TPTB expect.

[bvar22]

164. ...unless they keep puttting Prosac in the French Fries at Mc Donalds.

[Rex]

7. I was just thinking about that after the crazy guy tried to blow up the PP building.

Thank goodness he surrendered. I believe the republicans are trying to stir up a race war in this country and it looks like it might be working. Add to that certain racist PDs helping fan the flames and it makes one wonder if we are a the cusp of some kind of civil war.

I don't think it will happen, but if it does we can squarely trace it back to the GOP and their call for violence against their fellow citizens.

[Waldorf]

8. I don't believe there will be a civil war at all. Maybe some riots in some large Cities but no State

fighting another State.

[whereisjustice]

14. Texas would fight a war gainst the Union. So would most of South.

The rise of fascists/extremists like Trump and Cruz parallels the rise of political instability throughout history. They are reliable precursors of war.

[jwirr]

25. I don't know about DC but I would be very willing to let them

leave the Union. However, would they be satisfied with that?

[lovemydog]

116. Washington D.C. is a fabulous city.

If you're thinking of Congress, many of them spend their time back and forth between their home state and D.C. or nearby places in Virginia or Maryland.

[bvar22]

33. Texas would fight a war....so would the South???

Last edited Tue Dec 1, 2015, 02:37 PM - Edit history (1)

....with WHAT?
George Bush's "Champagne" unit of the National Guard?
LOL.
Don't let hysterics overcome logic.

[ChisolmTrailDem]

60. Oh, I don't know... With these, maybe?

The following list does not include aero-defense and MIL contractors like Lockheed-Martin, etc., that the Texas Republic could sieze:

Ellington Field Joint Reserve Base, Houston, Texas
Joint Base San Antonio, San Antonio, Texas
Lackland Air Force Base, San Antonio, Texas
Randolph Air Force Base, San Antonio, Texas
Fort Sam Houston, San Antonio, Texas
Brooks City-Base, San Antonio, Texas
Camp Bullis, San Antonio, Texas
Martindale Army Air Field, San Antonio, Texas
Dyess Air Force Base, Abilene, Texas
Goodfellow Air Force Base, San Angelo, Texas
Laughlin Air Force Base, Del Rio, Texas
Sheppard Air Force Base, Wichita Falls, Texas
Fort Hood, Killeen, Texas
Fort Bliss, El Paso, Texas
Corpus Christi Naval Air Station, Corpus Christi, Texas
Naval Air Station Kingsville, Kingsville, Texas
Naval Air Station Joint Reserve Base Fort Worth (Carswell AFB), Fort Worth, Texas
Grand Prairie Armed Forces Reserve Complex, Grand Prairie, Texas
Hensley Field, Grand Prairie, Texas
Camp Mabry, Austin, Texas
Camp Swift, Bastrop, Texas
Coast Guard Air Station Houston, Houston, Texas
Coast Guard Station Aransas, Port Aransas, Texas
Coast Guard Station Freeport, Surfside Beach, Texas
USCGC Galveston Island (WPB-1349), Galveston, Texas
Coast Guard Station Port O'Connor, Port O'Connor, Texas
Coast Guard Station Sabine Pass, Port Arthur, Texas
Coast Guard Station Saluria, Matagorda Island, Texas
Coast Guard Station San Luis Pass, Galveston, Texas
Coast Guard Station South Padre Island, South Padre Island, Texas
Coast Guard Station Velasco, Velasco, Texas

Got ground, sea, and air capability. May not be enough against the rest of the U.S., but I would bet half the south would go with Texas. But even if not, Davids have been known to put up a fight against the Goliaths.

[bvar22]

98. You DO know that ovr 1/2 the Personnel stationed at those bases...

...come from states outside Texas?.... Yes?
...and YOU believe these people will turn Military Weaponry on their own families and hometowns.

The whole topic is absurd.

[CajunBlazer]

101. This entire topic is patiently absurd

But let's play along for a minute. if Texas announced that they were stupid enough to announce they were going to succeed from the Union. Why would we want to waste a few nuclear weapons on them. I vote to just let them go, and good riddance.

[bvar22]

152. Then you know very little about Texas or Texans.

1) Texas is over 40% Liberal and Democratic.

*What would we have done without LBJ ( who, unlike Hillary) DID do the "politically inconvenient" but RIGHT thing (Civil Rights Act 1964). Without LBJ's "pushiness", we would STILL not have a Civil Rights Act.

What would we have done without Molly Ivans?... or Jim Hightower?

...or Anne Richards?

* or Barbara Jordan, the first African-American woman to serve in the Congress from a Southern state

*Dwight Eisenhower, born in Texas, and more Populist/Liberal than our current Democratic Party Leadership.

*Barbara Lee...Born in Texas

*or Jim Hightower

....but the BEST reason to NOT throw Texas away is that it is beautiful, and belongs to all of us.

Every single county that is not the deepest of Reds contains DEMOCRATS fighting for good government.
Some take their lives in their hands.

Millions of Democrats live in Texas because they prefer to live there and fight the good fight. LBJ said we would lose the South for a Generation after passing the Civil Rights Act of 1964.
THAT generation is long over.
Time to take back Texas, not throw it away.

BTW: I LOVE Texas Democrats. They are some of the most sharp tongued, courageous, outspoken Liberals I have ever met. Guess living in a Red State and fighting makes one TOUGH.


[font size=1]Unknown Liberal Texan standing in front of the Governor's Mansion in Texas[/font]


Many, many Americans have shed blood to KEEP Texas, and many more fought in the other WARS as "Americans" over the last 100 years. We OWN Texas.

I vote we KEEP Texas, and fix it,
instead of throwing it away.

[bvar22]

153. Wait a minute.

I just peaked your profile, and discovered that you live in ALABAMA,
and you believe Texas is the problem and should be cut off?

Anyway, congrats on fighting the good fight in Alabama.
Something like this can threaten property, pets, stock, and lives where we live.


My Wife & I moved from Big BLue Minneapolis to Dark Red Rural Arkansas in 2005.
It IS much easier being Blue in a Blue State & City. All one has to do is follow the crowd.

Lets stay together and solve our problems.
Trying to break up the country has already cost too much blood.

[lovemydog]

117. The people stationed at those places

work for the federal government. They would defend their bases against loonies from the far right or far left.

[bvar22]

165. ...but would they attack the United States from inside Texas?

THAT is the claim made by the poster above.

[whereisjustice]

83. Considering how Jade Helm was viewed by many Texans you'd know I am close to the truth

Texas, in general, hates just about everything about the US Govt. and northern states except the Govt. money they get for hosting military bases and oil/gas reserves. Oh, and the H1Bs they get for high tech jobs in Austin, Houston and Dallas.

That's not to say Texas would ever be able to claim "victory", politicians in Texas are dumb as a stump. But I assure you it would not take much for Texas to repeat history. The same is true for the rest of the South.

Local govts in Texas (and the bible belt) are being overrun with right wing nut jobs. That's the consequence of a pragmatic Democratic Party focusing exclusively on a few electoral vote heavy states.

It's like a time machine has sent the state's intellectual development back to the early 1930s.

So, yeah, Texas would lead the way if it came to that.

[bvar22]

92. Pure fntasy.

I know too many good Texas Liberals.

How do you proposed Texas "win" this war?

Do you really believe that all those Bases you listed
are Full to the Brim with Secessionists ready to kill their families, friends and neighbors from whichever state they came from because Texas says so? LOL

Pure adolescent fantasy.
Wouldn't even make a bad movie.

[rjsquirrel]

151. Exactly.

The OP is having fever dreams.

The categorical error is asserting that states could act in sovereign fashion at all in the interconnected US. Texas would become a third world country a year after seceding, if it could do so without a devastating military invasion by the US army. Millions of Texans are liberal and millions more come from other states, while Texas' economy depends entirely on trade. Entirely. Oil/gas and agriculture included. Texas could not even feed itself. New York will see to it Texas money has no value, too (lol).

This is conspiracy BS. It's what is so idiotic about the right wing ethos, don't bring it here.

If secession (the necessary prelude to civil war) were put to a popular vote in Texas it would lose handily, by the way.

[bvar22]

156. North East and Eastern Texas could feed itself,

plenty of good water, plenty forested ground, plenty of fertile ground, and plenty of stock (cows & pigs). (My grandparents truck farmed in Texas...solid Liberal Democrats, of course.)

West Texas, in fact, anything west of East Texas is in dire trouble over the water crisis.
That one won't get any better.
After LA dries out, we will see another migration, this time to the South.

[whereisjustice]

170. Do you really believe that all those Bases you listed are Full to the Brim with Secessionists ?

Yes, I do, enough of them, anyway. That is the trajectory the US is maintaining. It is evident by the effectiveness of extremists at the local electoral level.

I'm interested in the parallels of civil war throughout world history -

- Economic disparity
- Glut of weapons
- limited political representation, concentration of power
- dysfunctional justice system unfairly punishing the poor
- mainstream extreme right wing ideology, demagoguery, racism.
- corrupt election system, government owned by money interests, banking interests

I didn't say it will happen over night, but to deny the path we are on is to deny history.

Perhaps people think I am implying that civil war means Union flags and Grant/Lee, large marching armies and Gettysburg. That sort of organized military conflict would never happen. Nor am I making any predictions about "winners" or "losers". But, I'm not interested in the politically incorrect efficacy of my semantics.

To say it would never happen or imply that the discussion is "crazy conspiracy talk", that's disappointing. It's not people like me who make the Democratic Party suck right now. It's the lack of serious discussions about the festering core of political elite dividing the nation into two.

Perhaps global warming is the model of how we respond to the long term threats created by our collective political behavior. To be able to recognize and account for the consequences of our very bad behavior makes us uncomfortable with the truth that we are equally culpable for the bad choices we make in our world. Regardless of the name calling and personal attacks at my posts, I'll continue to draw attention to this fact and a variety of other unchallenged mainstream political hypocrisies.

[cherokeeprogressive]

62. I agree with you on this one. Americans are too complacent, fat, and lazy to fight a civil war.

What they'll do is boycott everything they dislike. It's easier.

[Waldorf]

64. You think taking up arms against citizens of another State is better????

[cherokeeprogressive]

66. I wasn't aware I proposed or supported any such thing.

[PowerToThePeople]

9. Personally, I am working on my emigration plan.

It is not easy, as I am not financially well off at the moment. I am slowly working things to be able to vacate the USA in short order if the situation here necessitates it.

[bvar22]

36. In 2006, my wife & I considered leaving the country, but immigration is difficult at our age.

We decided to stay and move very far out in The Woods, surrounded by protected wilderness and National Forest.
We found a pristine place with a deep cold water spring, and started growing our own food (No GMs), and keeping chickens and Honey Bees.

Back in the late 90s, I stayed for a while at an Ex-Pat community of Americans in Costa Rica who were working for an Oil Company.
I had never before met a group of people where every single one was an asshole.
They chose Costa Rica for the TAX advantages....not for the beauty, the people, or anything else. I had no desire to return. They were extremely rude to the locals, and seldom left their American Condo compound.

[COLGATE4]

121. I worked with American ex pats in Latin America

for almost 20 years and think your analysis of 99.99% of them is spot on. Essentially every single one was, in his or her own way, an asshole. They lived only to 1) bitch about the host country and the host country nationals and 2) get hammered long before 5:00. Never saw much of the country they were in, despised the locals and grouped together in their own little home-made hell of American 'compounds'.

[bvar22]

159. I had to see it to believe it.

(I was there in 1998, and Chavez was on the rise in Venezuela, along with some Anti-West sentiment.

Most had two issues:
Taxes,
and Racism.

I couldn't believe that many people would move to a country full of Brown People they HATED.

Of course, there was the option of leaving the American Compound of Condos, but that was highly discouraged based on the hostility between the Ugly Americans and the locals.

...and some have never come back from their Nature Trips.

The Fur-de-Lance (one of the most aggressive and poisonous snakes in the Western Hemisphere) likes living in your house under washers and stuff, and the Bot Fly are common to Costa Rica.

I would rather deal with 3 Western Diamondbacks than one fur-de-lance

[COLGATE4]

161. I know the fer de lance. In Colombia

they're called 'mapana'. Nasty little bastards. Get hit by one of those and it's pretty close to 'That's all she wrote'.

[NobodyHere]

10. The Tweets will fly fast and furious.

In this war of internet agression...

[whereisjustice]

15. Until a bunch of people with guns start shooting up the place.

[Autumn]

20. They seem to be doing a bang up job of that already. We had another shooting here in Colorado

Springs last month where three people were killed. The police were called before he killed anyone but CO is an open carry state. You go to WalMart you see idiots with guns on their hips.

[99th_Monkey]

11. Slaves Vs. Slaves

[Initech]

12. I've been saying that since Bush's second term.

People got pissed at me when I brought it up before but I still stand by it. When you look at all the social and economic factors that led to the first civil war, they're all there now. And when you add in the toxic climate and division caused by mass media and AM hate radio, it seems like a perfect shit storm brewing doesn't it?

[chervilant]

44. yes. n/t

[PatrickforO]

16. I am not sure 'civil war' is the completely correct term here.

It is a revolution of which you speak, and that is a terrible thing. If you'll permit me to whine a moment...

God, I don't want to live through that. I'm too old. All I want is to live out my life as comfortably as I can.

Now, to your point:
1. Bernie is, I think, our last chance to restore any sanity
2. Even with us backing his play every step of the way, he may still fail
3. Unless the oligarchs listen and throw the American middle class a couple of bones, like single payer healthcare, guaranteed Social Security, and heavily subsidized child care and college, our society will become even more economically polarized
4. This economic polarization will manifest in regional demonstrations that are put down brutally
5. If a demagogue arises (think Trump), a fascist 'revolution' could happen, like it did in Germany - but fascist revolutions are RAPIDLY co-opted by the oligarchs
6. Demonstrations will continue, and will eventually grind much of the function of society to a halt, because as the demonstrations increase in size and scope they will become more like general strikes
7. At this point, parts of the US will secede and as you say, the nation will split into maybe five or six geographic regions

The thing about this is that we talk like, act like and assume that our industrialized culture is worthy to be preserved. Is it? The northern European cultures committed genocide on many peoples. From them arose the insidious international banking cartel that profits off debt. We've had centuries of propaganda from the bankers until we actually accept the Fed is 'quasi governmental' and now we don't even think critically about the huge debt. But if we did, we'd see that a) the national debt is actually money we owe ourselves, and b) if we printed our own currency and got rid of the Fed, we wouldn't owe all this interest to Citibank and JP Morgan Chase, who actually have majority OWNERSHIP in the Fed. So to take off on what Winston Churchill once said, "Never before have so many owed so much money to so few..."

On the social justice end of things, we are about to have a race war. Oh, we have, temporarily at least, LGBT marriage and women's reproductive rights, but the crazies are rising up against those things with the kind of vicious violence that can only be born of ignorance. Now, we in the industrialized world are positioning ourselves at the behest of ISIS for a 'crusade' against Islam. In fact some right wing idiot was actually quoted as saying that we should bomb Mecca and Medina to show the Muslims that our God is stronger...

In the meantime, many other cultures that we've done our best to destroy and 'westernize' have survived. These cultures value the needs of the group over the wants of the individual. Are those cultures more worthy to continue than this one we have?

Like I say, I don't know. Well, that isn't the truth. The truth is I DO know. The problem is that I just want to live out my life in relative comfort because I've worked hard all of it. I want what is coming to me, what I have paid for check by check. In a way, I wish this change could come later, when it is not inconvenient for me. Selfish, I know. But I know that it will come when it will, and we will all live through it.

We see what is, and think about what could be and it is easy to be idealistic. But will human nature let the bad change to the good. Or will there be blood in the streets?

Gee. I guess I haven't cheered anyone up, have I?

[whereisjustice]

21. Thanks for this, well said. I see a difference though - the disparity in Germany was between

Germany and rest of Europe such that a the nation could unite behind a singular figure in a rush to war.

In the US we have the media and major political parties fueling disparity between rich and non-rich and fueling a rush to war. We have too many guns and too many media figures drumming their followers to war. Right wing leadership, Republicans and most of the South want war.

That's what it is, actually. It's hard to tell because we are all living in the moment. But if you pull yourself above it all, look at it from a macro view - the historical ingredients are all there. THings are a bit different because of the technology involved, but at the root there is a lust for war.

Also, keep in mind that the whole concept of "war" has changed. Perhaps the next civil war won't be two organized armies, but groups of loosely organized militias against the Union.

I believe like our many contemporary non-declared wars with the rest of the world, our next civil war will truly be a war, declared or not.

Just look at our weapons count and our military spending? How could it not lead to class violence?

[PatrickforO]

29. Your reply has truly grim implications.

The Union in your civil war will be owned and managed by oligarchs. It will have a small upper class, a small but powerful middle class bureaucracy of people who help it continue: propagandists, economists (who say what the POB want to hear), technicians, lawyers, accountants, dentists, doctors - a middle class more reminiscent of Europe's in the Gilded Age. Then the have-nots who are wage slaves reminiscent of the London East-Enders in Jack London's 1903 People of the Abyss.

The loosely organized militias right now are gun-nut, survivalist, KKK-leaning, homophobic, Islamophobic, ignorant-and-proud-of-it people. The kind of people who went out to support the welfare rancher Cliven Bundy.

So, justice, what if you cannot in good conscience support either side? Basically hold you nose? Because I'd be in that narrow middle class if I supported the Union. There would be absolutely no place for me, except perhaps as a target, in the militias. The problem for me with them would be that around the campfire they would begin to talk. The talk would be such a spewing of utter ignorance that I would, at best, get the giggles and be beaten, or at worst, talk back and be shot.

Seriously.

How do you think we will we save ourselves? Or do you actually think we can pull it off? Because my question about our worthiness to survive as a species still stands. Oh, perhaps I didn't ask it directly in my post, but it's there, and it is certainly a valid question.

[zeemike]

51. Yep, we who don't fit either side will be targets

And that could very well be the plan...a nice civil war to kill off the useless eaters to save resources for the PTB and their servants.
And the Bundy clansmen are not a threat to the PTB, they have the military with smart weapons that can deal with those clowns after they have killed as many as they can.

The truth may be that we are in a civil war now but we don't see it because it is not arms on the battle field like it use to be.

But WTH...I am too old and tired to care...but I feel for the young people that will have to live in the shit hole that we leave behind.

[Eleanors38]

94. Heh. Bohemians don't fare all that well in civil war.

[hifiguy]

50. Everything rotten that we see today has a single root cause - capitalism.

And as Lenin said, fascism is the final stage of capitalism's decay.

Capitalism has got to go if the planet and the human species are to survive.

[PatrickforO]

55. I agree with you.

Capitalism sucks. There's nothing good about it.

[KingCharlemagne]

137. Capitalism is better than Feudalism or Slavery - nt

[PatrickforO]

160. Hmm.

Neoliberal capitalism has created a feudal type aristocracy (the 1%), and has systematically assailed organized labor, ripped off pensions, downsized benefits and offshored jobs. This has had the effect of creating an underclass of wage slaves, which under the feudal system were known as serfs.

So...not seeing much difference here. I mean, if you look at the concept of 'freedom,' we can only really be 'free' if we are economically secure. Otherwise we are merely slaves dancing on our employer's string and stressing constantly about our situation. About 48% of Americans walk that line - only a paycheck away from hunger or homelessness.

See, people think they are 'capitalists,' but I'm not. Unless you are a wealthy person who uses money to invest in trade and industry for profit, you are not a capitalist. In fact 99% of Americans are not capitalists. This is why the neoliberal model of 'free market' capitalism is so odious.

[KingCharlemagne]

163. I'm a Democratic Socialist (a real one and not Sanders social democracy masquerading as such). No

less a figure than Karl Marx himself recognized that capitalism represented an advance over the older feudal order. Most historians who know something of the reality of feudalism for the 99% at the time share Marx' assessment.

[ronnie624]

82. It's truly bizarre that intelligent, educated people slavishly embrace it

as a viable means of economic organization. The concept of profit is nonsense on its face, completely at odds with the Laws of Thermodynamics. If the purpose of economic activity is to provide goods and services for all, and not for the enrichment of an elite class, then capitalism is idiocy of the highest order.

[KingCharlemagne]

136. Lenin also said the capitalists will sell us the rope with

which to hang them!

[lovemydog]

124. Um, no.

Do you remember when the verdict getting ready to be read about the Duke Lacrosse kids. Some in the media were predicting race riots in the Raleigh / Durham area. There were none. Similarly, Baltimore was very minor compared to what happened in Detroit, Watts & Newark in the sixties. I watched a lot of local Baltimore stations during that incident. Most people were peaceful, well-educated and astute. Many were telling the media to report on all the good things happening in Baltimore.

[bvar22]

166. I agree with most, exceot the inevitability of successions.

That won't happen again.
As a people, we are far too mobile.

[LittleBlue]

19. There won't be

The wealthy have enough support from poorer whites that it would be the most one-sided civil war ever seen.

[reallygosh]

79. Anyone, can drum thier fingers on a table

Step outside.

Will someone please tell me please, when MRS. Clinton ever missed a meal?

[leftofcool]

23. Oh good gawd!

Doomsday much?

[lovemydog]

125. Run for the hills!

No wait. Post more doomsday scenarios. This stuff cracks me up.

[KingCharlemagne]

139. Does the FACT that 80% of the world's population live within 1 km of

the world's oceans 'crack you up'? Where are those 80% (some 4.5 billion people) supposed to go when sea levels begin their inexorable rise????

Do massive Katrina-style events 'crack you up'????

[lovemydog]

158. No.

It cracks me up seeing people presenting worst case scenarios and suggesting little involving self-agency, beyond yelling at liberals on the internet.

[Doctor_J]

24. No one on our side is that interested in fighting back

The far right does whatever it pleases, up to and including murder, with no meaningful repercussions, so I don't really see this becoming a war. Until a few dozen hate radio stations are responded to, in kind, every time something like this happens, they'll just continue indefinitely. And who wants to do that?

[whereisjustice]

27. We've pushed millions of fighters away from the Democratic Party, all Dem Leadership wants is

your money. Then they wonder why turnout is so low.

[lovemydog]

126. Most younger people

don't listen to that nonsense. I think that's why they're by and large pretty happy.

[Octafish]

26. It'd be short.

Along with the most machine guns, they got IBM and NSA on their side.



http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/culturemonster/2012/01/lego-concentration-camp-warsaw-museum.html

[nadinbrzezinski]

28. I stopped pointing this out a while ago

since most people will not notice until it truly starts in earnest.

There are many things I do not point to here any more. A lot of them.

[matt819]

30. I agree

I've been thinking about this for several years now, more and more during this campaign. Congress is unable to pass any meaningful laws or strike any compromises. The right and left are so divided that there is no remaining common ground.

Legislators are bought and paid for by their donors, and the donors simply have the resources to fight any issue on any level. They have the capacity to tie the nation in knots, and have done so on women's reproductive rights, gun control, and more.

Many at DU applaud those governors and state legislators on the right who assert that they will do everything in their power to secede. Constitution and Pledge of Allegiance aside, there really is nothing to say that the US of A has to remain the US of A for eternity. Look at Europe's borders and how they've changed in the past 50 years. Hell, it was touch and go recently whether Scotland would remain part of the UK.

Will there come a tipping point, or are we going to go the way of the frogs in a pot of water and die before we realize what has happened?

[Blue_In_AK]

31. Hopefully Alaska will join Canada,

which makes more sense than being part of the US.

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

130. I think Maine would work well as a part of Canada too.

Maybe we can get Tim Horton's to come back then. I'm incredibly disappointed they closed a whole bunch of them just a couple weeks ago in Maine. I loved that place.

[lunatica]

32. I really doubt anything will happen

Have you actually talked to the people around you? Your neighbors, family, workmates, friends? In my experience they're woefully ignorant, and proud of it. They're eyes glaze over when you mention politics or the economy.

Right now a few hundred of my co-workers and I are being told there will be massive layoffs in the next few months. The predominant emotion around work is fear and depression but most won't even consider fighting it even though we have a good union. Most people are pretty defeatist when it comes to trying to change even their own status quo.

And I work in one of the most famously liberal universities in the world. UC Berkeley. There are fighters here, and I'm among them, but it's almost impossible to move people out of their capitulation to what I can only describe as the class system that our country has turned into.

And maybe that's why the crazy right seem to be taking over ever sing Sara Palin invited them to come out of the closet. Now with Trump they've found a leader and they're beginning to roar while the timid just let it all happen. It's sad, but that's been my observation of the countrymen I live and work around. Those of us who want to fight for our rights against the layoffs are not the majority by any means. The union is fighting and at least in the beginning we're winning a few, but when I try to talk to my fellow employees, they aren't inspired nor will they fight. If the union wins it won't be for having the support of most of its members. It'll be because of the legal issues that come up. Because the union knows the laws and use them. Thank god we've got lawyers in the union.

[Live and Learn]

37. That is why Bernie's political revolution is needed to stop the need for a full fledge revolution.

Revolutions aren't pretty and don't necessarily have great outcomes.

[hifiguy]

46. Agreed.

And Bernie is the last train out of Dodge. One or two more neo-fascist corporate presidents continuing the immiseration of the masses - no matter which party they profess allegiance to, they are representatives of the Money Party - and the shit will hit the fan, and violently.

[Live and Learn]

49. Very true! nt

[Nitram]

39. No, actually there is not "a real possibility of another civil war in America".

But to believe that there is would suggest that one who believes that also harbors other, equally extreme, beliefs.This is a delusion that has a lot in common with the far right's paranoid belief that Obama was conducting a training exercise as cover for a military takeover of Texas.

[Oneironaut]

40. Disagree completely. It's not going to happen.

Where are the factions? The jingoistic rhetoric? The actual stomach and motivation for fighting a civil war?

A second American civil war is still well within the realm of political fiction. It just won't happen (thankfully).

If something were to happen, it would be a cultural revolution. There might be violence along with the way (like in the 60's), but it's not going to be a civil war. You grossly overestimate Americans' hate for each other. The actual number of extremists is very low.

[TeddyR]

41. A civil war between whom and whom?

This is a silly concept. The US Civil War happened because the south wanted to protect slavery. There were state actors that made that happen. Which state in the US is going to try and separate itself from the Union?

[CajunBlazer]

72. Maybe Texas

But I certainly wouldn't fight them over it; I would encourage them to leave.

[Calista241]

114. Never going to happen

There are 27 million residents in Texas, nearly 5 million of whom were born elsewhere. You may get the random politician or some idiot who claims to want to secede, but actually doing it would be logistically impossible.

They don't even have a platform to begin to convince people to consider this. What are they going to fight over? Abortion? Immigration? Only the crazies care about either topic. And they're already winning both fights in any case.

[CajunBlazer]

135. I know....

....there is zero chance of that happening. I was just saying that if they ever want to leave it's okay with me.

I get a bit put off by the self importance of some Texas residents.

[KingCharlemagne]

142. what about our black and Latino brothers and sisters who live there? Should they be allowed free

passage out of Jesus-stan if they desire it?

[CajunBlazer]

148. I am sure that can be arranged as a condition.....

...of Texas leaving the union peacefully.

[SadWingsOfDestiny]

42. I always reference Hurricane Katrina

When describing how fragile our infrastructure of life necessities are. When describing how quickly social fabric can unravel.

There were demonstrated extremes. Extremes of compassion. But also extremes of opportunism. Extremes of incompetency. Extremes of selfish individualism.

I can't imagine it within a perpetual scale, yet that is where we are headed. With it will, of course, come civil war. At some point, hopefully beyond my lifespan. At first war over luxury, but eventually over necessity. I believe it to be inevitable.

[hifiguy]

43. I've been thinking for some time now that this country can not

hold together much longer as permanently organized.

There is going to be a split between the lizard-brain reichwing fundy authoritarians and the sane, rational people. I do not know how it will play itself out - probably not well - but two such disparate cultures cannot continue to coexist for much longer. The fascists are keen on splitting the country even further and the sanes are going to have to band together.

[grasswire]

106. the problem is the geography

all that vast wasteland in the middle

[AZ Progressive]

45. If Politics fail, war is the result

It's just the way it is.

[whereisjustice]

85. agree, politics is failing in this era of history. The upper class is doing well, so they are

full speed ahead, but they are leaving wreckage in their wake.

We have no balance of power. We are becoming single party corporate rule. Corporations have too much control over our economic policies, religious nut jobs have way too much influence over our social policy.

There is no real counter balance. And the presumed Democratic Frontrunner is the poster child for the comfort class.

[Populist_Prole]

47. Very pithy post that highlights what so many try to sweep under the rug

This:

"the mainstream political class has taken away our voice and ridiculed us for demonstrating against the injustice"

Thesis statement. Well said.

[Chemisse]

48. It does seem like we are headed toward a crisis of some sort.

But I am more concerned about it being a revolution of some type.

[ScreamingMeemie]

52. +1

The illness has spread both North and South.

[tabasco]

96. Concerned? Hell, I'm wondering what the hell is taking so long!!

I hope to hell I get to see this nation finish the revolution that started in 1776.

[1939]

119. You are assuming that you are going to win a violent revolution

Look at the French revolution and how quickly it deteriorated.

[KingCharlemagne]

145. The French Revolution witnessed the triumph of the bourgeoisie over the aristocracy

and monarchy (and clergy). So not sure what you mean by 'deteriorated.'

Are you a closet monarchist?

[1939]

154. The French Revolution

Led to the dictatorship and corruption of the Directory and then to a return of monarchy/royalty in the form of the Napoleonic Empire.

Freedom (at least as I define it) died very quickly.

[KingCharlemagne]

162. But not beforebthe First and Second Estates of the ancien regime

lost power when the bourgeoisie flexed its muscles.

[tabasco]

168. I'm not assuming shit

but you're assuming a whole bunch.

[mwrguy]

53. Bring it

[Lizzie Poppet]

54. I sometimes feel that way.

I mean...I'm pretty well set up for it. I find I'm just so damned angry so much of the time at what's been happening to this country for a long time now. Time to stop being the slowly-boiled frog.

And then I watch footage from Syria. From Beirut. And from far too many other places... And I think, "No...this can't be allowed to happen."

Frog legs, anyone?

[DashOneBravo]

87. Lol

[deathrind]

57. It's just a matter of time.

"As a result, conservatives have become emboldened. They have no fear of serious counter attack."

You are absolutely right. IMO this is one of President Obama's biggest mistakes since taking office. By President Obama saying (right after getting into office in 08) that we need to "look forward, not backwards" in relation to holding anyone in bush jrs administration accountable for lying America into a war or for torturing people, as well as letting Wall Street off the hook for any accountability for the economic devastation wrought on America and the world. Republicans / Conservatives are very emboldened. How could they not be after watching a few people get away with what they did and not be held accountable. I fear for what may happen when, not if but when Republicans win the Presidency next time. Because what has happened in the past always has to be topped the next time.

Bush Jr. and his friends failed miserably at protecting America, started 2 wars, let a city drown, tortured people, vivisected civil rights i.e. Patriot Act and brought the world economy to its knees. All of that sounds / is really bad and it is hard to imagine what could be worse than that...but it could and will be.


Old article but very https://www.ted.com/talks/nick_hanauer_beware_fellow_plutocrats_the_pitchforks_are_coming/transcript?language=en

[Township75]

61. This is laughable. You think there will be a war where liberals and conservatives fight?

This is the closest that will happen:

Large masses of liberals and conservatives get ready to fight in their own parts of the country. Due to be left (at least party loyal democratic left) supporting NSA policies and implementing strict gun control in their areas of the country they are unarmed and the right has perfect intelligence on their locations, conversations, drum circles, and resources. The right whiles them out in 10 minutes and then go drink some moonshine.

That is the so called upcoming civil war...and not even that will happen.

[Fla_Democrat]

65. No one loves the....

No one loves the small penis, gun humping, ammosexuals till the left vs right civil war.

[KingCharlemagne]

146. But they will never vanquish the cowbell circle. On tablet so

Can't paste pic or video of Will Farrell doing More Cowbell

[cherokeeprogressive]

63. Civil war LOL. More like a boycott-a-palooza.

The fantasy of Americans fighting Americans will remain just that, thankfully.

[whereisjustice]

67. That was said before the last civil war. Extreme political figures like Trump, Cruz et al reliably

predict onset of violence. It won't be two huge Armies and recognized rules of engagement, but it will be a war, none the less.

There is a power vacuum and our political elite are not financially incentivized to prevent a class insurrection.

We were at a similar point in the 1960s, it quickly escalated, only strong Federal civil rights progress prevented a massive nationwide uprising.

Today's Democratic leadership, including the presumed front runner, knows no such tolerance, moral clarity and courage. There is no balance of power.

I have history on my side versus the false security and confidence of an entitled upper class. Like global warming deniers, they presume that nothing needs to change and this is all just (their personal) god's plan.

Nothing short of true economic justice and more equitable distribution of wealth and benefits will prevent a disaster.

[CajunBlazer]

73. Yep, can't wait to see far left liberals packing AK-47's. (n/t)

[whereisjustice]

75. That was more or less the sentiment before the last civil war. Those elite Quaker yankees

have no constitution for armed conflict. The US (Union) Army at the time only had about 15,000 men.

You shouldn't confuse an abhorrence of violence, and a demand for strict firearm regulations as a lack of courage and strength.

Liberals don't think every dumb fuck loser who wants an automatic rifle and 10,000 rounds of ammunition to settle scores should be able to check out of walmart or his local gun show or internet superstore with a truckload of guns and bullets.

It would be a grave mistake to think "liberals" wouldn't fight back.

[CajunBlazer]

93. Sure liberals will fight back if attacked...

....I was in the military myself and many of my colleges were liberals. But you made, in my mind, a dumb assertion that there will be a civil war -talk about far out - and at the same time made another assertion that the far right is winning political battles on every front. People who see themselves as winning political battles on every front would the last to start a civil war. Wars of that kind are born of frustration, not political victory.

So obviously I assumed you are smart enough to realize that, so i started to examine who else would start a civil war and found no one. So based on the assertions you made in your post, there is absolutely no one who will start a civil war.

Here is a suggestion - think before you post. Perhaps if you take that advice you would be carefully not to undercut your own arguments.

And here is another suggestion - quit your fear mongering; that has long been a disgusting tactic of the far right. You can read about their continued use of that tactic in my blog articles; Those Who Would Use Fear and ?Conservative Resort to Using Fear Tactic Again.

[lovemydog]

127. Thanks, I'll check out your blog.

And welcome here. Have fun.

'We have nothing to fear but fear itself.' A great liberal said that. I agree with him.

I sometimes wonder how much some folks here have really read much history. I mean especially about the hardships of our ancestors. And how we've by and large faced and met most extreme challenges. As for the Civil War, the rhetoric leading up to that was very intense and prolonged. It didn't happen quickly. As I'm sure you well know.

[bvar22]

171. Nebraska is closing the borders now,

ordering all Liberals to leave, issuing guns to Republicans, and are voting to secede at midnight.
So far, the Nation hasn't really paid any attention. The general opinion of the Nation is "Ho-Hum, they'll sober up, get hungry, and go home to wait on their tax rebates, unemployment check, or farm subsidy."

IF the nation ever "breaks up &quot or down) I'm staying in the piece that gets New Orleans,
and will happily spend my days there, eating oysters, and Watching the River Flow" (Thanks, Bobby)

[KingCharlemagne]

147. +Infinity! - nt

[Township75]

68. Or a war to out Twitter or Comment the opposing side

If things get really bad there will be snarky videos posted on you tube.

[JustAnotherGen]

88. +1

[Bluenorthwest]

69. I am always highly suspect of people who push fear and doom.

I really don't care what lingo it uses or what poses it strikes, fear is a toxin and those who want to put it in the water supply suck.

[whereisjustice]

77. Who is pushing fear? You think the path the US is on is sustainable? You want to avoid the

difficult discussions because it makes you uncomfortable?

As soon as you told me I suck, you shunted any meaningful discussion. You've just made yourself an intolerant example of the very thing I am warning against.

You think its fearful to talk about the regular slaughter of black men by the police? Or the rise and influence of extreme right wing groups in the US? These groups are now mainstream.

Just what do you think is going to happen if the political momentum to the right isn't stopped?

I live in a red state and I've never heard as much racism and hatred against liberals as I have since the 1960s.

Things are boiling beneath the surface. You can call me names all day long, but history proves me right.

[CajunBlazer]

100. You claim history is on your side....

...if you had truly studied history and learned how civil wars have started down through the centuries, you wouldn't be putting out your BS.

Oh, there maybe a few rogue right wing militia groups will kick up a little trouble, but it will be the conservatives in the federal government who will be the first to insist on sending the army after them. You see, while their far right supporters might get mighty frustrated, establishment conservatives fully understand they benefit from the status quo.

So if the far right isn't able to start that civil war of yours, who will. Is it far left who will start the killing? Yep, I can see all those mean ultra progressives who say that they abhor any kind of conflict and are proud to be able to say they have never touched a weapon of any kind in their entire lives finally getting sick and tired and deciding, "We are going to kill those SOB's.

Quit acting like the Republicans who are regularly use fear as a tool to get what they want. It's sickening.

[CajunBlazer]

70. A civil war? Give me a fricking break!

What a bunch of BS!

If as you say the conservatives are winning, why in the heck would they start a civil war?

Is it then the far left that is that is going to start this war? Are the 50 or so far left DU'ers who recommended this thread going running gun battles on our streets? Those nice folks are more likely to oppose any kinds of guns in the hands of civilians; heck they probably are oppose to kids playing with cowboy pistols and plastic solders. They are also the kind of folks who are opposed any kind war, even wars that many others would call " justified".

It is certainly not going to be those in the the middle class who have comfortable jobs.

So that leaves the poor and "oppressed". Sure there are a relatively few gang bangers out there with a lot of weapons, but they are too busy trying to defend their turf against rival gangs. If you think the majority of America's poor are going to take up weapons, you do them a great injustice. They have have been taught by generations of people like MLK that it is far more effective to use non violet means to fight injustice.

So who in the hell is going to start this civil war? Answer: NOBODY!

In addition you have the most pessimistic view of this country I have ever herd any one espouse. If I possessed your opinions, I would simply curl up into fetal position in the corner, suck my thumb and wait to die. Thank God that most of us on DU are a lot more optimistic. You remind me of some far right wing dooms day prepper.

I wish there were a method for un-recommending a tread, because this is one time I would certainly use it.

[whereisjustice]

80. when you hurl the term "far left" at those who rec'd this, you gave yourself away as just another

winger.

I never said the poor would take up weapons and start a war. But you did.

And your ideas about gang bangers and MLK is patently racist.

If I had to pick who would start an insurrection, it would be the far right wing. Just like last time.

And I assure you that your "far left" would fight back.

You really have no idea what far left means, do you?

I'm not surprised that you are here mocking the right wing US political trajectory by lobbing personal attacks. You sound like a global warming denier.

As far as right wing - your post is a literally a compilation of insulting right wing talking points.

[artislife]

86. Yup nt

[CajunBlazer]

91. Again you make absolutely no sense!

If you think I am a "winger" (I assuming hear that you mean "right winger&quot check out my DU posts. There are now well over 400 of them so should be able to get a reasonable understanding where I stand.

You logic is stunted: First, you say again and again that the right is winning the political war, then you claim that it will be the right that starts the civil war. Huh?!?! That make absolutely no sense! People who are wining the political fight would the last to start a civil war.

Apparently you also need help with your reading skills. I never said that poor would start a civil war, I said the opposite. I said the they had learned from MLK and other civil rights leaders that violence is counter productive. And you say that is racist?!?! OMG, That is a compliment to both King and his followers.

If you think I am a global warming denier why don't you read these articles I wrote for my blog: Global Warming Deniers, Why Conservatives Mistrust Science, Sea Levels Are Rising, Conservatives Play Ostrich, and If You Still Don't Believe in Global Warming. You know what happens when you assume.

After hanging around DU for months I have a good idea of what the far left wing folks are like: Bless their little hearts, they are for the most part more emotional rather than logical, they are more passionate than action oriented, they are idealists with a lot of illusions. Like their right wing counterparts, they are prone to reject straying one iota from their ideals even when compromising would allow them achieve their goals. Some, unfortunately, would risk having the Republicans retake the White House, maintain the Senate, and load the Supreme Court with ultra conservatives so they can "vote their consciousness". And by the way, I think that zealots of any variety are the biggest weakness of this nation.

Now I don't expect you to understand my positions right away since you obviously think that anyone to right of Bernie Sanders is far right conservative. And if I had made a fool of myself with my assertions and assumptions I certainly would not reply to a post, but I would be more than happy to continue this conversation if you have a mind to. I am a firm believer that the more we understand where other people are coming from, the better we will be as a people.

Edit: To correct typo.

[lovemydog]

129. +1

[Populist_Prole]

95. +2. I've noticed something

Those with the harshest invective hurled against the OP and it's rec-ers/supporters seem to exude a defensive support for the status quo, and be happy with....hell, strive for; being just barely left of the current GOP economic orthodoxy. Anything else is foolish loose cannon talk to them.

[CajunBlazer]

99. No, Fear mongering is ultra conservative tactic that is best ....

not used here in the DU. The OP, and those like him/her, should not assume that that everyone sees the current situation as they do, in this case with fear and trepidation. The vast majority of the US population who are not on the far left or the far right are confident we can work out our difference civilly, within the constraints of of our government system.

Liberals like me, who are without idealistic illusions, know that we need to stay focused on the general election. That means backing to the hilt the Democratic nominee regardless of who that turns out to be. The conditions are already in our favor for taking over the Senate and a Presidential win will almost guarantee that. I suspect we will gain seats in the House, but with Gerrymandering in place, the Republicans will probably stay in control.

But that doesn't matter because the real prize is the Supreme Court. There are 4 justices who are over 80. Assuming the next President will serve 8 years like 4 of the last 5, 9 years from now they will all be rapidly approaching or will have surpassed their 90th birthday when the 2024 election draws near. The next President, with Senate confirmation, will likely determine the political alignment of the Supreme Court for at least the next 20 years.

Instead of putting out silly predictions of a Civil War, we need figure out how best to win the coming political fight.

[Populist_Prole]

107. Sorry, I disagree with your view

While an actual, literal, civil war is not likely in the short future, a pollyanna-ish defense of the status quo is not going to satisfy the plutocrats and encourage them to be more benign, and only an utter fool would believe that kowtowing to them, or triangulating the differences between us and them in the hope of baby steps toward a more progressive system of governing is going to bring positive results. By your reasoning, in the long run, it might work out. In the short run, the 99 percent are smoked.

The corporate/third-way wing of the democratic party is just as harmful as the republicans IMO. No economic justice, no peace. Things are bad. Corporate control has utterly disenfranchised the vast majority of citizens.

I believe this thread has morphed anyway: It's not about a n actual civil war, but rather a de-facto battle between third-way democrats and economic populist democrats. The whole 'Democratic Party Inc' machine is justly getting heebie-jeebies from the populist wing's stridency. I'm just here to say that I welcome it.

That is all.

[CajunBlazer]

143. Well writen, but off topic

Go back and read the OP. Then read each of my subsequent replies. I objected to the over the top rhetoric that an actual civil war is brewing - no more, no less. If you want to address your concerns about "the corporate/third-way wing of the Democratic party", start your own thread, but I warn, it will be just a rehash of what has been written on this board hundreds of times.

You write well; when you have something original to say, let me know.

[lovemydog]

131. I disagree.

I'm often posting things here about what we can do in our local communities. What we can do in our own lives to improve the situation. Those posts often generate very little discussion. I think a lot of folks here are more interested in romantic revolutionary rhetoric than in actually seeking out and finding ways that we can work together and make things better, from a leftist standpoint. To change the status quo. For example: joining cooperatives, moving money away from big banks and into credit unions, volunteering at shelters and other places, getting involved with artists and film makers and others who not only oppose the status quo but meaningfully fight against it in tangible ways. Generally speaking, most folks here who talk the loudest seem the most bored with those kinds of posts. It's kind of like they urge a revolution for everyone else and think that by shouting about it maybe others will do the drudge work like coalition building that is necessary for genuinely changing the status quo.

[CajunBlazer]

138. Bingo!!!

Extremely well said (and well written). Unfortunately, some of the most passionate use all of their energy venting on the internet instead of trying to make a meaningful contribution in their communities. That way they don't have to get off their butts and actually do something.

[Lizzie Poppet]

97. FWIW...

...this admittedly far-left person is by some standards pretty heavily armed. Not that I have a lot of guns, but I'm a long-distance rifle competitor. That means my competition rifles are, for all practical purposes, sniper rifles. I don't have the fieldcraft of a trained sniper...but I wouldn't give away anything as a shooter.

But don't get me wrong: I view violent civil unrest in the same way any sane person does: as a horrific scenario with no truly good outcomes, only some slightly less shitty ones. Like you, I don't necessarily see any particular aggrieved faction setting the spark. Banksters and oligarchs finally tanking the economy presents a greater threat of disorder. A whole lot of people suddenly finding themselves in a desperate situation is much more likely to trigger violence than our increasingly vitriolic socio-political rhetoric.

[lovemydog]

112. Agree.

Since our real Civil War, perhaps the most divided time was during the Vietnam era of the late 60's - early 70's. There's tons of books and documentaries about the Civil War and that era. Every few years some doofuses come along proclaiming revolution. Yeah, right, good luck with that. They should look up how hard that was by reading books about the Weather Underground, the Black Panthers, the SDS on the left; and on the right militia movements, the Patriot movement, ultra right wing Christian fundamentalist groups and ISIL. Hint. It ain't child's play.

Timothy Leary said something like 'the 80's will make the 60's look like child's play' or some such nonsense. We have the highest percentage of people covered with health insurance than I think at any time in our nation's history, thanks to the Affordable Care Act. Violent crime is at its lowest since the 50's. Fewer people go to bed hungry than at any time in world history. There are fewer countries at war than at any time in the last century.

Younger people are measurably the happiest they've they've ever been since they started recording that kind of thing. They will be making amazing breakthroughs in technology and science, that will help people live more satisfying and fulfilling lives.

If there's any kind of revolution in this country, the left would lose to the right wing who are armed to the teeth. But it's not gonna happen because people don't have the desire. Most people want to watch movies or exercise or hang out with friends when they aren't working. And large groups of people aren't suicidal enough to go up against the police and military of this country.

Yes, we have challenges. Very serious ones. We will face them and in many cases overcome them when people get involved. Particularly in their local communities. And vote for the most progressive candidates available in every local, State and federal election.

The doomsday posts here make me laugh out loud. At least it's entertaining.

[Kilgore]

128. Good post

Bravo!

[CajunBlazer]

144. Damn, I like your style!

Great points, well written!

[KamaAina]

71. Another?

It appears to me as though the original one has been under a ceasefire for the past century and a half. But it never ended.

[whereisjustice]

84. Very true. Confederate flag is used today as a warning to the North that it never really ended.

It should have been made illegal to fly that flag.

[CajunBlazer]

102. Wouldn't there be a little problem the 1st Admendment that .....

.... we liberals are supposed to cherish. Or does that only apply to our speech and our actions. I see your are a constitutional scholar as well as a historian.

[joshcryer]

74. LOL

[JI7]

76. internet warrior

[whereisjustice]

78. insipid remark

[CajunBlazer]

103. Over the top origianal post.

[rjsquirrel]

81. Lol whut?

Bullshit.

[Inkfreak]

89. Bullshit of the highest order.

I see this type of nonsense from the nutty right all the time. The US is far more connected than ever before. Families live in many different states. The US is purple, not red/blue. You go hide in your basement cowering over a nonexistent threat. I'll continue to live life.

It's easy to predict doom. And it makes one feel superior in their "knowledge". Plus, you don't have to answer for it here as anybody can spout anything in the Internet and not be accountable.


Aliens will soon land on the White House lawn and give us the secret to the Galaxy. There...I can make claims, too.

[CajunBlazer]

104. No aliens will not come in peace.....

... they will view us as an inferior species and try to wipe us out. But we will be protected by progressives with assault rifles. If you are going try frighten people with tall tales, you might as well make it whopper.

[Kilgore]

109. Totally disagree, they will come to Serve Man

[link:

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[Docreed2003]

105. While I agree with your sentiment..

While I agree with your sentiment, the US is far from purple, at least in the south. As a native southerner,I can assure you that, while there may be pockets of blue, the south has become even more red in the past decade. I grew up north of Nashville, raised by New Deal grandparents who were FDR democrats. As a child and through my young adult life, TN was a sane, but conservative state in the union. In the past ten years, the state of my youth has become unrecognizable...I weep for what has taken over my home state. The evangelical, far right has cemented their power in the state and we have become a laughingstock. TN was once a proud blue state, but no more....it will take a generation to change the politics of the state. Other historically blue states in the south are no different

[1939]

120. Southern Democrats

At one time, the southern states were solidly Democratic. FDR recognized that to keep these states, he needed to soft-pedal civil rights and accept that the solid bloc of conserva-Dems in the south gave him control. Once civil rights was established and a fait accompli, the voters in the south had no reason to be tied to the Democratic Party and many moved over to the more conservative GOP whic caused the "solid south" to go from solid blue to solid red.

[Katashi_itto]

90. Bookmarking so I can check against what happens every two years.

After all, no one thought Trump could last.

[Kilgore]

108. No way, instead we will.....

Organize a Facebook campaign, start a website, start a blog, make a post, design a support ribbon, tweet about it, pin it, and Reddit.

The really motivated will encourage a boycott, or possibly design an app.

Pick up arms and fight.......gimme a break. The 0.00001% that are willing, already have been tagged and under surveillance.

We are too content as a nation. Instead we need to focus on getting progressive candidates elected who could start changing the direction of this country.

[lovemydog]

110. Agree one hundred percent

Groucho. I mean, Kilgore. Welcome here by the way. Have fun.

[Kilgore]

111. Why thank you

Have been a member since 2012, but read more than post.

By the way, it's Kilgore as in Kilgore Trout

[lovemydog]

113. Ah yes, Kilgore Trout.

I love love love Kurt Vonnegut's writings.

[Kilgore]

115. Instead People get distracted by stuff like this

[link:

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[lovemydog]

118. Thanks everyone for one of the funniest threads I've ever read

at DU!

[Vinca]

123. At this point the country would probably be better off splitting in two.

Our only problem is figuring out how we fund the wall to keep them out when they realize all their benefits are gone. ("Keep government hands off my Medicare.&quot

[MillennialDem]

132. A civil war can happen anywhere. Not sure the point of this.

[randome]

133. You fail to appreciate that there is a power vacuum in the GOP, as well. No one is in charge.

That makes us ripe for demagoguery but so far only the likes of Trump and Cruz have 'risen to the challenge'. And they're third-rate.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]All things in moderation, including moderation.[/center][/font][hr]

[First Speaker]

155. I've heard this before..."how could a B movie actor become President...?"

...we'd never elect Nixon--by God, nobody trusts him... George W Bush? That moron...? It is extremely possible that the American people could elect a Trump or a Cruz to the White House. The GOP gets more extreme every year, and pay no price for it politically. I see no signs of this ever ending. Eventually--quite possibly 2016--they'll win the Presidency, and that will be the beginning of the end of liberal democracy in the US.

[lovemydog]

134. There's a war going on now.

Black Lives Matter is addressing it. My votes for all elected officials will be for those who I feel will be most effective at helping make the significant changes necessary to end it. Here are the solutions offered:

http://www.joincampaignzero.org/solutions/#solutionsoverview

[ananda]

140. All I really know in one sentence.

The libs and pseudo-libs will embrace all kinds of different possible scenarios
ranging from not possible to aliens from outer space, while the rightie gun-nut
2nd amendment militia freaks will only shout: secede or die!

[brooklynite]

141. Uh huh...

I hear "the revolution is coming" about as often as "the world is about to end".

[Zorra]

149. Great post. I hope people understand that Vern and Merle Klandude

already have around 80% of the privately owned weapons with which to fight a bloody civil war with. This is not a pro gun statement. This is a fact.

Will the military, and the police, both of which are primarily comprised of RWers, protect minorities/progressives in the event of a violent civil war?

The Democratic party began a continuous hard swing to the right when the right center DLC took over the Democratic during the Reagan years of the mid-80's. Republicans are now in control of both Houses, and we are at risk of a fascist republican being elected, or selected, POTUS.

Please. Stop. Agreeing. With. Conservatives. And. Their. Policies.

[font color="red" size="6" face="face"]"Democrats moving to the middle is a double disaster that alienates the party's progressive base while simultaneously sending a message to swing voters that the other side is where the good ideas are.' It unconsciously locks in the notion that the other side's positions are worth moving toward, while your side's positions are the ones to move away from. Plus every time you move to the center, the right just moves further to the right."[/font] ~ George Lakoff

[First Speaker]

157. I don't know about "civil war"...but we are facing a supreme political crisis in this country...

...comparable to the Revolution, the Civil War era, and the rise of the Axis powers. It boils down to the fact that the GOP, essentially, no longer believes in liberal democracy. *That*--and not "liberalism"--is their true enemy, and extinguishing it is their true goal. This is self-evident to me, and I see little evidence that anyone is preparing to deal with it, and I admit I don't know what "dealing" with it would entail. In the other crises, great leaders appeared--Washington, Lincoln, FDR--and liberalism prevailed. I see no signs of that happening this time. But the crisis is coming, and might arrive as soon as the next Presidential administration, if the GOP wins the White House. No one can say what will happen then. The greatest historical earthquakes--the Civil War, World War One, the Depression, the fall of Communism--came as crushing surprises when they happened. All I can say is, eventually the GOP will move openly against democracy, without double-talk. And all bets will be off. I'm just glad that I'm old, and not young.

[LanternWaste]

167. We're insular, we're content, we're complacent and we're privileged.

My belief is that as long as we have cable television, internet porn, video games, and useless debates with (at best) benign consequences, tomorrow will be much as yesterday was.

I see no one thing, nor even a collection of concerns that rises to that particular critical point in which the population puts down the remote, and turns off the console to do anything of substance other than post inconsequential internet messages (mine, as well as yours) or fight with relatives during the holidays in regards to politics.

We're (collectively) insular, we're content, we're complacent and we're privileged.

Neither a war nor a warrior does that breed.

[hunter]

169. My Pacifist U.S.A. and Civil War time ancestors fled. They walked away from troubles, northwest.

Irish habits, same as Catholic heretics and other pacifist refugees of Protestant Europe and England.

My mom's family were non-Mormons in the heart of Mormon territories. Very useful as outsiders. The sort of people you could buy "French Postcards" and Canadian alcohol from. Or settle disputes.

Very very go to hell twisted, but trusted.