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agnostic102

(198 posts)
Fri Dec 4, 2015, 10:21 PM Dec 2015

Ex-muslim Here to answer any questions you might have

Last edited Mon Dec 7, 2015, 04:40 PM - Edit history (2)

I wanted to make a thread about my experience growing up in the middle east. What we went through to get to america (as refugees) Going to mosque as a young child. Seeing my first stoning at the age of 7 including hangings while living through the war iran-iraq war in the 1980s.

Its not fully truthful to say i left islam as my experience with it was till i was about 8 years old. And my moms side of the family in iran had for the most part converted out of islam. My mothers great grandfather was a shia mullah who when he heard that a new bahai had moved into town. Picked up a butcher knife to go and slaughter/kill him. The story goes as my great great grandfather went to kill this man he saw that the bahai man was praying. The bahai heard him come in and said to him i know why you are here. Please let me finish my prayers and lets have a conversation. If by the end of it you still want to kill me you can and i wont resist. As the story was told me they stayed up 2 nights and 3 days talking and discussing religion. At which point my great great grandfather declared hes faith in the bahai faith.

At the end of the war in the 1980s our family escaped through pakistan as refugees in which we were interviewed and processed through the united nations for a year sponsored by my aunt who was living here. We moved to southern california and i remember the car ride to our new exciting home from LAX. All the buildings with beautiful lights towering our drive on the freeway. Only a month or so away from christmas. You can imagine what it was like for a 8 year old to come to a new place where a beautiful colorfull tree full of presents was waiting for me. My first few months in this country was magical to say the least. Im forever great full for that. I remember the car ride to the airport in pakistan was with my uncle who was still waiting for his papers to go to germany. He would tell me how when i land in america all the trees were in the shapes of animals. That all children got there own bikes. That in every home there was a big box of toys and games for every children that lived there. Wow.. its hard to imagine that was so many years ago. But i can still remember it like it was today.

Anyway im here to answer any questions you might have about the middle east. about islam. about sunni vs shia.. about modern day terrorism and how we can help to stop it. I apologize if anything i say offends anyone as that is not my intention. It is only through my experiences and what i have seen first hand that make up who im. Thank you.

Anti semtism in the middle east during the iran-iraq war

From a very young age the word jew or as my friends would use the slur word yahoodi was ingrained into us. The local mosques. The milita groups and even in school. One group of people that were always blamed for your troubles were jews. Sure the satan united states was always in the mix as we iranians seethed with hatred for americas support for saddamn hussien. The communist russians who actually sold the weapons to iraq were not that far behind.

But it was always a mix of things. some blamed the soviets, a lot blamed the usa.. most blamed saddamn of course. BUT ALWAYS ALWAYS without question all blamed jews as they were behind the whole thing. Death to jews , death to israel, death to usa was common in many of the street protests.. during religious shia ceremonies that usally stopped traffic where grown men would beat them selfs with chains to recreate the martyrdom in the shia religion. Us kids wanting to be part of the older adult groups would mimick this behavior but we would use our hands.

Marg bar america, or translated death to america was common chant. In some ways our hatred for america stemmed from the fact that they supported the jews and israel. If there was no america to back up the jews and israel. Surely we would defeat them in a war that lasted only 1 day!!

Now the mullahs of iran arent as extreme as the wahhabis of saudi arabia. So there was and in some ways still is a room for jews inside iran. Jews and christans are considered poeple of the book and as long as they live and abide by sharia law there is a sort of tolerance for them. Bahais are seen not as a religion but a political movement and they got it the worst in some aspects. So the policy of the actual government was not to say death to jews as at least publicly. The jews were not the emeies. Israel was. Zoinism was the true enemy. Anyway, irrelevant of whatever the offical policy. Jews , christians, bahais, are routinely arrested for things such as a dispute with a neighboor who went to the local city or village authority and accused you of trying to convert him or her. Threats of this and actual follow thru was common. So many minorities never spoke about there religion publicly. Many many bahai kids would remove ANY religous signs before going to school as once the school found out you were a bahai. Life would become very difficult.

But no matter what your ethnicity was.. or religion was.. you were always better then the "jews" the only consolation came when the blame on jews was EQUALLY shared with the blame for bahais for example.

One specific story i remembered was i went over for dinner at a neighbors home. This was something that my mom would not allow us to do on a regular basis as she hated the regime in iran and did not want her children to accidentally let neighbors know that our family hated the mullahs and wanted to escape. Something obviously lost on me as a child as i had my toy guns and trained to go fight the iraqis on the front lines(pretend training).

Pictures of me with my toy guns and children military fatigue was something i took so much pride in. Every Friday after mosque , i would put my best aviator outfit that my aunt from california had sent me with my military helmet and my plastic machine gun and i would march down our street in perfect steps as i had practiced many times. I would salute an imaginary officer and let him know that i was ready to go to the front lines and so that i could become a martyr in the war against Saddam and the united states. This march would gain the attention of the dads coming home from work or the moms washing the family clothes in front of there houses ready to be put up on cloth liners which lined the small street we lived on. The street was more of a dirt road. Little girls of the family clamoring to help there mom do adult things anxious to prove that they too could wash clothes and dry them. I would get whistles and cheers but i would not break formation as the moms who knew my mom talked about how adorable i was in my uniform. frustrated as to why they would not take me serously! Didnt they see i was in uniform?

No i was focused! that is until i received a salut! That was the best for me, i cant tell you the happiness i felt every time someone from the neighborhood saluted me.. I was being recognized. Finally someone taking me seriously. But nothing and i mean nothing topped that moment when a young soldier coming home from the front lines saw me. and stopped and saluted me. That was it! that was the moment a brave heroic soilder coming home from war with hes gun slung behind hes back happy to be home. I would stand at attention! Kick my right foot to the dusty ground and with full pride sling my hand towards my face at a sharp angle. This time it was ali! He looked stright at me and saluted back! Can you believe that? he saluted me?? me!! of all the kids it was me. I was hes favorite, i know i was hes favirote as i was the bravest! As he came and picked me up in hes arms he would tell me that was the best salute he had ever seen. Better then a officer i asked? YES EVEN BETTER THEN A GENERAL he would say. dilerouse with happiness being carried by ali down the street. I would yell PEROZI!! PEROZI!! victory victory!

of course ali way my favorite! He was tall and strong! he would always play war games with the local kids. Always stopped to say hello and show hes uniform to us. Hes family knew my family well, as my mom babysat there daughters. Mahshid my older sister of 14 at the time was perfect for ali. Or so they thought. One day they came over with flowers and gifts asking my parents if ali could marry my sister. It was always polite hellos, kisses on the cheeck.. salam salam welcome welcome were the words of the day. Persians are great hospitable people. My mom knew why they were coming over. Of course being an educated women she had no intention of doing what her parents did to her. Marry her off at 14. She had no intentions of that for her own daughter. My sister was still playing with dolls she politely told ali's family. She was not ready for marriage. She doesnt know how to cook or clean my mom said with a nervous laughter. Avoiding upsetting a family with ties to the local militia. As for me? oh i was running around the front court yelling my sister is getting married to ali! That would surely raise my rank i thought! not withstanding that i was at the ripe old age of 7.

one night as i was staying over at my friends house for dinner. Never over night. My mom would never allow that. But just for dinner i had earlier begged her to say yes. We were all really hungry waiting for dinner. Seeing the kids were getting restless the father of the family came in to tell us a story about a monster! This monster ate little kids who misbehaved he claimed! or kids who left there home at night to go play when the parents were sleep. This monster would come when no one was around to save you! Who is this monster we asked frightened to death. What does he look like? Does he have big teeth? where does the monster come from? can it get inside our house when were sleeping? No!! he yelled, if you behave and dont leave your house at night it cant get you. But if you dont listen to your parents it will know you have been bad. it loves to eat bad children! We were all good we yelled out! Yes he said you have to promise to be good or the monster will come. Where does the monster come from again we asked? The jews! the jews make the monsters. and they will come so behave! Until the dinner is ready. of course by now i had lost my appetite on the verge of tears and i wanted to go home. When my mom heard of this later she had a talk with there mother and i was never allowed over there house.

Looking back, it was always normal for us to blame our problems on everyone else. When the electricity would go down it was due to the bombing because of the americans. When there was shortage of food it was the zoinist. Never us.. Self criticism of our country was forbidden! especially at the time of war. If you made to much noise you could get the attention of the local authority. or worse yet be accused of being a spy. I hope one day in my birth country we can look at our short comings and take a look at our selves and realize the majority of the pains we have caused have been self inflicted. The estimated 50,000 to 100,000 thousand children soilders ranging in 10-17 years old who were sent to there deaths was our national shame. Including Ali.

We got news that the train ali was taking back from the front lines was bombed by a mig jet. The trained had derailed and there was dozens of casualties of soldiers coming home from war. My mom and sisters went to there house to give there condolences. You could hear the screams of the women inside the house. the mother crying out for her son. I remember her beating her self on the head screaming for her baby ali. She just wanted to hold him for the last time. She shrieked "where hes body". I want to bury him. I want to see him. They are keeping hes body cold, ali hates the cold she would cry out. Please god let me keep him warm. Bring him to me. I couldnt stand it anymore and ran outside to the end of our street waiting for him like i had many times before. I knew he was alive. He was to strong for bullets and bombs. They just had to be patient because he was coming home. They would see that and believe me when he would come home and pick me up like he always did and we would surprise hes mom.

Ali died on a friday. They never found hes body. hes picture is on a martys wall somewhere in tehran. Handsome as ever in hes uniform. he was 17.

81 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Ex-muslim Here to answer any questions you might have (Original Post) agnostic102 Dec 2015 OP
I don't have any specific questions but thank you for starting what is hopefully a good thread. nt JanMichael Dec 2015 #1
Agreed. Fantastic Anarchist Dec 2015 #27
Experiences are what help to shape us but they can never define us..than you for sharing AuntPatsy Dec 2015 #2
To use your words "how we can help to stop" the "modern day terrorism"? Jarqui Dec 2015 #3
Please agnostic102 Dec 2015 #11
Thank very much for your answer Jarqui Dec 2015 #20
Access and technology exboyfil Dec 2015 #35
In terms of ISIS/al qaeda/martydom terrorism Jarqui Dec 2015 #57
your english is great and your efforts here long overdue and welcome roguevalley Dec 2015 #23
First, let me thank you for taking the time to provide this information. Fantastic Anarchist Dec 2015 #46
Thank you for explaining that point Tab Dec 2015 #71
Welcome to DU Change has come Dec 2015 #4
As an ex-Catholic I say: welcome, brother! Xipe Totec Dec 2015 #5
fist bump! agnostic102 Dec 2015 #14
Just leave the space out of ":fistbump:" Fantastic Anarchist Dec 2015 #48
.. :fistbump: Cha Dec 2015 #50
Another ex-Catholic here. Welcome & thanks for offering your insight. We desperately need it! southerncrone Dec 2015 #29
Welcome to DU, this will be quite interesting. I am glad you are here, getting out of Iran uppityperson Dec 2015 #6
Regarding apple pie... A HERETIC I AM Dec 2015 #7
Crust... Liberal Jesus Freak Dec 2015 #26
Crumble of course Yorktown Dec 2015 #43
HEATHEN!! A HERETIC I AM Dec 2015 #55
This is EXACTLY the kind of discussion most needed here. hifiguy Dec 2015 #8
in my humble oponion agnostic102 Dec 2015 #12
Thank you for a thoughtful and informative response hifiguy Dec 2015 #18
It's not very similar to the old testament and the Torah. JRLeft Dec 2015 #61
In regarding the Hadiths, I've heard of Quran-alone Muslims. white_wolf Dec 2015 #63
No because Sunni hadiths and Shia hadiths are very conservative, JRLeft Dec 2015 #70
Your words do not offer much encouragement ... kentuck Dec 2015 #72
It's easy for Christians to separate the New Testament TexasMommaWithAHat Dec 2015 #16
But the OT is filled with calls to violence oberliner Dec 2015 #56
Very true. TexasMommaWithAHat Dec 2015 #58
Islam takes their book literally Go Vols Dec 2015 #9
Jesus' teaching in the New Testament is just good advice and love for our fellow human beings. JDPriestly Dec 2015 #39
Peace brother Go Vols Dec 2015 #41
? We have plenty of Christians who take the Bible literally. They are called "fundamentalists" Hekate Dec 2015 #51
my Daddy invites me to church Go Vols Dec 2015 #54
Hello. bigwillq Dec 2015 #10
Great thread. My question: can Islam be reformed into something non-violent? Yorktown Dec 2015 #13
well agnostic102 Dec 2015 #17
I agree: all abrahamic texts are violent. But only global Islam take them literally. Yorktown Dec 2015 #22
I read all of the time that ISIS has nothing to do with Islam B2G Dec 2015 #15
well agnostic102 Dec 2015 #19
As a born and baptized ex-Catholic, I agree with you. ScreamingMeemie Dec 2015 #21
Please explain the concept of jihad Jack Rabbit Dec 2015 #24
Let agnostic102 correct me if I'm wrong, but it's because of the texts. Yorktown Dec 2015 #44
Where did they get the idea that the masses would be impressed by terrorism and follow them? Spitfire of ATJ Dec 2015 #25
what was life like under the Shah ? JI7 Dec 2015 #28
why does Islam seem to play a stronger role in Muslim countries than Christianity JI7 Dec 2015 #30
Thank you for posting! Lifelong Protester Dec 2015 #31
Message auto-removed Name removed Dec 2015 #32
Thank you for this very informative thread. Blue_In_AK Dec 2015 #33
I'd like to know what the attraction is? Yupster Dec 2015 #34
I am Catholic and I welcome you. 840high Dec 2015 #36
its funny, just tonight I was thinking that yuiyoshida Dec 2015 #37
i envy agnostic102 Dec 2015 #47
I totally understand... yuiyoshida Dec 2015 #53
Very enlightening response. kentuck Dec 2015 #73
Does anybody in the Middle East moondust Dec 2015 #38
The OP mentinos the Bahias. I have known some very tolerant Bahais. JDPriestly Dec 2015 #40
I was interested in the Baha'i Faith many years ago KamaAina Dec 2015 #79
Welcome to DU and thank you... LittleGirl Dec 2015 #42
please agnostic102 Dec 2015 #49
I have not yet read a single word catnhatnh Dec 2015 #45
It's the *funding* that makes the difference. CJCRANE Dec 2015 #52
Hello agnosti102... thank you very much for posting this. sibelian Dec 2015 #59
I'm too an ex-muslim and now an atheist. JRLeft Dec 2015 #60
Hey Jr agnostic102 Dec 2015 #62
Will Sunni Wahabis always have a problem adapting to the western culture? kentuck Dec 2015 #64
Thanks or this thread treestar Dec 2015 #65
Thank you. smirkymonkey Dec 2015 #66
My doctor (a general practitioner) seems to have a similar Snobblevitch Dec 2015 #67
All religions served their purposes thousands of years ago. It's over now. lindysalsagal Dec 2015 #68
Kicking a very important thread FrodosPet Dec 2015 #69
Hey Frodos agnostic102 Dec 2015 #74
Are non-Muslims allowed to attend worship at a Mosque? clarice Dec 2015 #75
Coke or Pepsi? underpants Dec 2015 #76
Many thanks for posting Maeve Dec 2015 #77
sorry agnostic102 Dec 2015 #78
Why are dogs considered unclean in Islam? KamaAina Dec 2015 #80
Kama agnostic102 Dec 2015 #81

Jarqui

(10,494 posts)
3. To use your words "how we can help to stop" the "modern day terrorism"?
Fri Dec 4, 2015, 10:27 PM
Dec 2015

I realize it's just your opinion but I'm interested in what you might have to say.

agnostic102

(198 posts)
11. Please
Fri Dec 4, 2015, 10:50 PM
Dec 2015

Please bare with me as i try my best to answer this. English is not my first language so i do apologize for my grammar.

Islam as a religion is a very conservative religion. Shia, sunni, sufi, or any of the sects. Its by no means a liberal or progressive religion then lets say bahai is or dare i say hindu or buddism is (i admit i dont know much about the last two) but that being said.


If you notice all modern day terrorism that happens OUTSIDE of the middle east is caused by small sect of sunni wahhabi version of islam. This was an ideology created out of saudi arabia in the late 1800s if im not mistake. please note this not excuse any terrorism thats committed by shai or non sunnis. AS THERE certainly have been. Groups like hizbollah for example. The issue though is countries like iran and the groups they sponsor like hizbollah are interested in REGIONAL conflicts. Usually associated with Israel or sunni muslims and the conflicts they have with them. Shai muslims for the most part are not interested in blowing up western targets. its not to say shai's havent used suicide bombers or blown up buses full of women and children. they have. buts its been usually in context of local fighting. certainly martydom is a very big and beautiful idea in islam. it was somethign that was taught to us as a very young age. But consider the london bombings, 9-11, the paris attacks, how many of them involved shia's? Its almost always al quida wahhabi type groups. Why is that?

The best answer i can tell you is that muslims believe mohammed was the seal of the prophets. Meaning he was the last prophet to bring the word of god. So why would you be christian or jew when we have the latest version of windows if you will. So although they believe they have the right religion and are conservative in there view point. A lot of them understand that jews and christians are poeple of the book as well.

NOT isis type groups. See isis type groups see anyone who doesn't believe in the sunni wahhabi version of islam to be going against god. In essence to go against god means you are the devil itself and are to be defeated and killed. To go against god himself is punishable by death. ISIS type groups view themselves as god soilders.. so to go agianst isis MEANS to go against god. Which again is punishable by death.

How do we stop modern day terrorism. Unfortunately we cant. There is a reason im now an agnostic. So for me it was not just rejecting islam but it was rejecting religion in of it self. Unfortunately wether its radical right wing christians, or orthodox jews, or sunni wahhabi muslims. If god calls on them to kill they will.

Jarqui

(10,494 posts)
20. Thank very much for your answer
Fri Dec 4, 2015, 11:21 PM
Dec 2015

You obviously gave it some thought and took some time to express yourself. I'm grateful for that.

Although this may be true, it's disappointing and hard to accept: "How do we stop modern day terrorism. Unfortunately we cant."

The odd part of that is Islam has been around for centuries. But this jihad and martyrdom against the US is fairly recent - since the 80s (or maybe Iran in the late 70s). Why the recent martyrdom/jihad - why now and not before?

exboyfil

(18,008 posts)
35. Access and technology
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 01:08 AM
Dec 2015

I have to think if the 19th century Afghanis (and all the other countries the Brits pissed off) could have gotten to the UK, they would have made terrorist attempts. You had Indians who did assassinate some Brits in the UK (I remember one from a biography of Gandhi, but I can't remember the details).

We forget that over the years we have been subjected to terrorist attacks. Our willingness to get involved in Middle Eastern affairs (primarily in the form of bombs and support for repressive regimes). Jeremiah Wright was spot on in that regard.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_the_United_States#1800.E2.80.9399

Jarqui

(10,494 posts)
57. In terms of ISIS/al qaeda/martydom terrorism
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 09:07 AM
Dec 2015

In the US, some might argue it started in 1977 with the Hanafi Siege (not truly an ISIS / al qaeda incident)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1977_Hanafi_Siege
or others might suggest the next incident: in 1989 with the bombing of the Riverdale Press over publlshing an editorial supporting Salman Rushdie's The Satanic Verses.
1968 Kennedy assassin Sirhan Sirhan was Christian and then joined a cult - he was not a muslim.
Others might point to later attacks like 1993 WTC
This roughly backs that up:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_terrorism#United_States

Outside of the US, there was some Palestinian activity in the 70s along with a couple of embassies attacked. But I suspect many would feel the embassy and barracks attacks in Beirut was the starting point.

My point is: the US was over a couple of hundred years old before this crap from Islamic extremists started happening to it's citizens.

And it's troubling to read there is nothing we can do to stop these crazy people.


roguevalley

(40,656 posts)
23. your english is great and your efforts here long overdue and welcome
Fri Dec 4, 2015, 11:50 PM
Dec 2015

thank you for helping clear up things here. the wahabis are saudi supported aren't they?

Fantastic Anarchist

(7,309 posts)
46. First, let me thank you for taking the time to provide this information.
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 01:51 AM
Dec 2015

I have a few questions:

What made you decide to leave your faith? Was there one reason or several?

Do you think your reason or reasons for leaving your faith could be applied to others, or provide more moderate guidance towards their religion?

Do you have any optimism that the moderate voices of Imams, practitioners, scholars, leaders, etc. will win back their influence? If so, what steps would need to precede this influence?

ISIS appears to be a really violent and unique group considering their level of propaganda and media skills. So bad that even al Queida has condemned them. The fact that they hold territory, and were quite ambitious enough to declare a caliphate, how would you best implement a counter to this? Do you think war (not just air power) is the answer? What other ways besides war would or could work in decreasing ISIS's influece, or at least mitigate the damage they cause?

Do you think the United States should step back and let other nations take a more prominent role in ending this conflict?

Without revealing any information regarding your safety, are you in peril now?

What do you think of all of the calls for databases, fences, refugee situation, calls for deportation, hate speech, and general xenophobia? Have you yourself experienced some of this?

Sorry for all of the questions - but I think this is very interesting, that as a former Muslim, you gave us a great opportunity from somewhat of an authoritative voice, to glean more information about ways to deal with this problem, rather than us just speculating or just being intellectually lazy and have our unconditional response be "kill 'em all" as I've heard online and in public.

Thank you so much for giving us this opportunity!

Tab

(11,093 posts)
71. Thank you for explaining that point
Sun Dec 6, 2015, 08:26 PM
Dec 2015
The best answer i can tell you is that muslims believe mohammed was the seal of the prophets. Meaning he was the last prophet to bring the word of god. So why would you be christian or jew when we have the latest version of windows if you will. So although they believe they have the right religion and are conservative in there view point.


I have never really understood the reasoning behind some of the vitriol about the sanctity of Mohammed. This is the first time anyone has said anything that comes close to providing a reason. Thank you for starting this thread and your insights (and welcome to DU!).

Change has come

(2,372 posts)
4. Welcome to DU
Fri Dec 4, 2015, 10:31 PM
Dec 2015

I'm glad you're here. Do you have any hope that the middle east will find a way to coexist with western society in your lifetime?

Cha

(305,566 posts)
50. .. :fistbump:
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 02:06 AM
Dec 2015
All the smilies are in the last box above this in the Message text.

Good luck to you and thank you for your riveting story, agnostic.. from someone who is agnostic herself.

I don't do dogma or any organized religion.

southerncrone

(5,510 posts)
29. Another ex-Catholic here. Welcome & thanks for offering your insight. We desperately need it!
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 12:38 AM
Dec 2015


Oh, to add the emoticons, click on the "smiles" button above your textbox when posting. Simply place cursor where you want to insert the image & click image.

uppityperson

(115,879 posts)
6. Welcome to DU, this will be quite interesting. I am glad you are here, getting out of Iran
Fri Dec 4, 2015, 10:33 PM
Dec 2015

must've been quite hard. I am interested in what you have to share.

How can we stop the cycle of violence, how can we stop terrorism, what do you see the reason for it?

Thank you for writing this and welcome.

 

hifiguy

(33,688 posts)
8. This is EXACTLY the kind of discussion most needed here.
Fri Dec 4, 2015, 10:42 PM
Dec 2015

The only question I have is this - why has islam continued to be interpreted so literally by so many? The mainstream xtians i.e., the non-funfamentalist protestants and vast majority of catholics I've ever met - willingly admit that many of the most dubious things in the bible are purely allegorical and not to be taken literally. I have not seen thatreframing by many, not all, muslims.

I'm an atheist/secular humanist myself and will be most interested in reading your response.

Profound thanks for starting a badly-needed thread.

agnostic102

(198 posts)
12. in my humble oponion
Fri Dec 4, 2015, 10:57 PM
Dec 2015

dear hiiguy,

If you read the koran itself. Believe it or not its not that much more harsh then the old testoment. Its the HADITHS in islam that really bring out the harshness within islam. Hadiths really deserve there own thread and discussion as its to much to type here. but couple of explanations. Please read my other reply that has some explanation of islam and my thoughts on it. The other things i will point out is age.

Islam is about 500 years younger then christianity and thousands of years younger then jews. if you notice there are so many secular and atheist jews. Many Christians are becoming secular as well. its my beliefs that as time goes by followers of religion start chilling out a bit. NOT ALL OF THEM but most of them. islam hasnt that time yet. in a 100 years of modernity. I will bet you will find just as many muslims who are secure as christians now days. Me for example =) but many more will follow.

The question is how many will have to die for religion before then =(

 

hifiguy

(33,688 posts)
18. Thank you for a thoughtful and informative response
Fri Dec 4, 2015, 11:13 PM
Dec 2015

And yes, the OT god is a bloodthirsty psychopath of unimaginable monstrosity.

white_wolf

(6,256 posts)
63. In regarding the Hadiths, I've heard of Quran-alone Muslims.
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 04:47 PM
Dec 2015

I think it was in "No God, but God" that the author mentions a group called Quran-Muslims who view the Hadith as useful to an extent, but not inspired or valid for interpreting the Quran. Are such groups considered "real Muslims" by the more fundamentalist groups and do you think those who follow only the Quran are less violent than those who follow the Hadith?

 

JRLeft

(7,010 posts)
70. No because Sunni hadiths and Shia hadiths are very conservative,
Sun Dec 6, 2015, 07:37 PM
Dec 2015

both have different beliefs about who spoke with the the prophets. If you ask them they are certain they are correct. In other words if you don't believe what they believe you are wrong.

kentuck

(112,870 posts)
72. Your words do not offer much encouragement ...
Sun Dec 6, 2015, 10:20 PM
Dec 2015

to this infidel. Do people really have to die for any religion? Wasn't Jesus enough?

TexasMommaWithAHat

(3,212 posts)
16. It's easy for Christians to separate the New Testament
Fri Dec 4, 2015, 11:11 PM
Dec 2015

from the Old Testament, where all of the calls to violence occur. Most Christians look at the OT like history or a mixture of history and allegory (yeah, you can believe that allegory is inspired by God). The OT offers words of wisdom, but the violence is simply history - not calls for how we are to act today.

And since there are no calls to violence in the NT, the vast majority of the Christian world were able to progress to the state of modernity we live today.


 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
56. But the OT is filled with calls to violence
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 06:56 AM
Dec 2015

And yet Jewish people have progressed to the state of modernity as well.

TexasMommaWithAHat

(3,212 posts)
58. Very true.
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 09:14 AM
Dec 2015

And they also view much of the OT as history and allegory, and don't regard "everything" that was done then as examples for how to live now.

Of course, I realize we're speaking in broad generalizations, here.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
39. Jesus' teaching in the New Testament is just good advice and love for our fellow human beings.
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 01:29 AM
Dec 2015

There is some anger at greed and hate, but the parts of the new Testament that claim to quote Jesus are pretty peaceful. There is no exhortation to killing at all.

Hekate

(94,873 posts)
51. ? We have plenty of Christians who take the Bible literally. They are called "fundamentalists"
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 02:14 AM
Dec 2015

It seems to be mostly an American Protestant phenomenon.

I'm not sure where you got your opinion, as Congress has its share of fundamentalist Christians, and even more who cater to them out of political guile.

Go Vols

(5,902 posts)
54. my Daddy invites me to church
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 02:31 AM
Dec 2015

or used to.
I'll be there for the next stoning was usually my response.

 

Yorktown

(2,884 posts)
13. Great thread. My question: can Islam be reformed into something non-violent?
Fri Dec 4, 2015, 10:58 PM
Dec 2015

It's probably a question too vast for either of us, but let's try:
the way mainstream Islam is currently defined, it is on a collision course with democracy.

Do you see a peaceful way out?

My personal suggestion: a return to the 8th century Muta'zila which posited the Quran was written by a human, muhamad, and that this human was not perfect.

But in the context of what has been propagated by Saudi money, that's a tough sell for decades to come.

agnostic102

(198 posts)
17. well
Fri Dec 4, 2015, 11:12 PM
Dec 2015

unfortunately as it is today, and this is a shia sunni and almost type of islam. If i claim that mohammed and in essense the koran is not perfect. I wouldn't get down the street before i was torn apart. i know this is going to sound weird. but you have a better chance of surviving a mob cursing god then you do Mohammed or the koran. Saying goddamn it or damn god will get you a beating and lashings for sure., probebly jail time. saying damn mohammed or the koran will get you outright killed.

can islam reformed into something into non-violent. Will to answer that question you have to believe islam is inherently violent. for me all religions are inherently violent. Either because of the texts within the book or its followers. Why im an agnostic today. but i can say as a religion islam is a lot less secular then say what the jews are today. And yes, the more secular a religion becomes the less violent it becomes in my humble opinion.

 

Yorktown

(2,884 posts)
22. I agree: all abrahamic texts are violent. But only global Islam take them literally.
Fri Dec 4, 2015, 11:39 PM
Dec 2015

Yes, I know Christian Pencoastalist, fundamentalists, etc are freaks too.

But Christianity does not have this enforced global compliance that violence is OK if someone criticizes their holy book. I can say Jesus was a clown in Kansas City and live. As you said, "saying damn mohammed or the koran will get you outright killed".

Which is why I mentioned the collision course: Danish cartoons, Charlie Hebdo,..

Do you see a way out in decades to come, knowing that moderate Muslims are regularly browbeaten into submission by the literalists (among them the Muslim Brotherhood)?

 

B2G

(9,766 posts)
15. I read all of the time that ISIS has nothing to do with Islam
Fri Dec 4, 2015, 11:07 PM
Dec 2015

It sounds like you are of the opinion that it is.

Any thoughts on domestic risks here in the US?

agnostic102

(198 posts)
19. well
Fri Dec 4, 2015, 11:18 PM
Dec 2015

to answer that question for me is also the same as saying the westbaptist group is a christian group. So lets say if i go to christians and say well i think westbaptist group is a christian group. I would be told that of course not. Same is with islam. If i go to muslims especially non sunni muslims and say is isis islamic then there answer would be the same. Of course not! but the reason i left religion is because in my heart of hearts and (any christians here forgive me when i say this) but i do believe westbaptist is a form extreme christanity. Distorted or not. what i have seen from religion and what they do to people i would not wish them on my worst enemies.

ScreamingMeemie

(68,918 posts)
21. As a born and baptized ex-Catholic, I agree with you.
Fri Dec 4, 2015, 11:27 PM
Dec 2015


Welcome to DU, and if you get rid of the space between fist and bump and make it fistbump in between the colons ( , you'll get the fist bump smiley.

Jack Rabbit

(45,984 posts)
24. Please explain the concept of jihad
Fri Dec 4, 2015, 11:59 PM
Dec 2015

My impression that it is something similar to what a Christian might think of as struggling against temptation. It doesn't necessarily have anything to do with armed conflict. How did it come to be confused with armed conflict.

 

Yorktown

(2,884 posts)
44. Let agnostic102 correct me if I'm wrong, but it's because of the texts.
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 01:47 AM
Dec 2015

The word jihad is used more often as religious warfare than as internal moral struggle in both the Quran and hadiths.

Which is why modern groups with names like 'Islamic Jihad' do not refer to an internal moral struggle but to warfare.

JI7

(90,650 posts)
30. why does Islam seem to play a stronger role in Muslim countries than Christianity
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 12:41 AM
Dec 2015

and other religions in other countries where that is the majority religion.

one example is the latin american countries which tend to be very conservative catholic . yet when it comes to politics there is more separation and people argue over things like economic views . but in muslim countries it seems to all be about islam itself. not much on different views on the economy and other non religion matters.

Lifelong Protester

(8,421 posts)
31. Thank you for posting!
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 12:42 AM
Dec 2015

I'm rather ignorant on the topic, so I'll apologize in advance for possibly saying something stupid.
My question, is why don't peaceful Muslims speak out more against the ones who are terrorists (claiming they are Muslim)?

Aren't there a lot of Muslims? They can't all be afraid of the jihadists.

Response to agnostic102 (Original post)

Blue_In_AK

(46,436 posts)
33. Thank you for this very informative thread.
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 01:05 AM
Dec 2015

My son-in-law is Shia Muslim, but he's from Australia and like you thoroughly secularized - other than not eating bacon.

I think we need more conversations like this. Welcome to DU.

Yupster

(14,308 posts)
34. I'd like to know what the attraction is?
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 01:05 AM
Dec 2015

Even at its best to this outsider, it looks like Islam treats women as second class citizens. You see this carnage going on in 50 countries around the world seeing these hopelessly backward people beheading schoolteachers in Thailand and enslaving children in Africa.

I know quite a few Muslim families in my circle of friends and acquaintances and they are all doctors, computer programmers, hotel owners, etc. I'm not comfortable asking them so I'll ask you.

What is the attraction? Why would a person in today's world, an educated, even wealthy person look around the world and say Islam is a movement they want to be involved with in any way. I would think there would be a mass movement of people leaving Islam, but there doesn't seem to be. Can you help me understand this?

PS: A couple of years ago I was on vacation in Austria and I saw my first people in burkhas. It was in a fancy hotel restaurant in a fancy tourist area. There were two couples at a nearby table, two 20 something men and two women in full burkhas. It was really disturbing to me. The burkhas did not cover the women. They removed them from the world. They had to put each forkfull of food under their faceplate veil which must have been very difficult to enjoy, but that wasn't even the disturbing part. The women were removed from the table conversation. You couldn't see them smile or frown if they liked or didn't like the food which honestly is part of the fun of going to somewhere like Austria. When the waiter came by the women couldn't talk to the waiter. He talked to the men who then whispered to the hidden women, who then whispered to their husbands what they wanted. Still today it's disturbing to me, kind of like seeing a parent punch his kid 20 years ago and still can't forget it today.

Anyway, again I ask ... what is the attraction?

yuiyoshida

(42,767 posts)
37. its funny, just tonight I was thinking that
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 01:20 AM
Dec 2015

on DU I have never recalled anyone mentioning they were from the middle east or a Muslim. I have stated many times my family is buddhist, but I know very few Buddhists on here. I often wondered if those like you, on DU were afraid to speak up, cause as I said, I have never seen anyone do that, and if you are the first, congratulations. I even made a quick stop by the group Muslim/Islam on DU just to take a peek at the posts.

When AsahinaKimi was here, we used to chat in private, how it seemed few Asians popped their heads up and said, "Hey, I'm Asian, too" which made me wonder why. Were they afraid? Was it easier just to not say anything? One person thought I was stupid to expose myself, they would ask me, why expose yourself to hate mail, or comments, by letting people know who and what you are, but I am proud of my culture and like sharing it with people.

I was glad that an Asian group was even allowed here, because I am sure it wouldn't be allowed at other websites. Kimi used to dread, PEARL HARBOR DAY, or those days when the Japanese whaling fleet was prominent in the News. It was scary to read thought the comments expecting to find one that was down right nasty and Racist. No one asked me about the whaling thing, but only because I spoke up already and called it stupid. School children don't need to be eating whale meat, and the stuff is supposed to taste horrible anyway.

As for PEARL HARBOR day, I try to stay away from those threads, cause a lot of hatred comes up. When Japan had the recent Earthquake and Tsunami, Right wingers on twitter, were screaming "PEARL HARBOR, YEEEHAW!!" like as if this was GOD'S PAYBACK to the Japanese. I guess two Nuked Cities wasn't payment enough.

But I digress...DU has always been good for me, and I hoped that maybe If I put myself out there, other's of Asian decent would also.

I guess that's why I was curious why it seemed no Islamic people would do the same here. Yeah, I suppose its scary to put yourself out there, being a different culture and even religious affiliation, and there's been some nasty stuff in the News but, people over here in America can't be blamed for it, though Right wingers will go out of their way to make sure everyone from those regions are made uncomfortable and unwelcomed.

I am glad you have popped up to say hello, cause I know it must be difficult and takes a lot of courage to do that, so again Congratulations. I would like to hope DU is very diverse and people from all backgrounds and cultures can find a common cause to rally around.

Diversity is one of the reasons I love my city of San Francisco. So many kinds of people living here, its never boring. So many different cultural festivals...You feel like part of the entire world living here.

Anyway, its my hope that more Democrats on DU who are from the Islamic faith will pop up and say "hi" as well as more Asians. I sometimes start feeling alone on here, especially now that Kimi is gone, and its a little stressful to think someone might think I represent a large number of Asian Americans living in the United States. There are so many kinds of Asians in this country!!! It would be nice If I knew of one or two more on Democratic Underground, again, cause if wouldn't feel like, I was by myself, if that makes any sense.

agnostic102

(198 posts)
47. i envy
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 01:53 AM
Dec 2015

you yuiyoshida, because i never see buddhist having to constantly apologize for there religion. Or constantly have to prove to people that you people are peaceful. It gets tiring to keep having to tell people islam means peace when its more about submission. you get tired of having to explain why stoning to death someone is somehow justifiable. Imagine having to live in a country where every elected leader , police, military, and goverment is kim davis face staring back at you. And instead of her telling shes going to pray for your gayness to go away. They are going to hang your gayness away. Im sorry to sound so crude but when you see 19 year old kid hanging by his neck desperately kicking at the air in an attemp to stop being strangled to death. you lose a part of you. of course im not sure why they were killing him. It could have been because he was gay, or had sold drugs or was part of a outlawed group. But sharia law is not something to be messed with. And when its the law of the land you are desperate to leave it if you cant fit in it.

I was born with a intestinal disease that required multiple hospitalization. One day me my mom and my sister were leaving a hospital and being so young and sick i was to tired to walk. My mom exausted from spending the nights with me at the hospital had my sister who was 16 or so at the time carry me. She struggeld to keep her hijab on and carry me at the same time. Caused her hair to show. A women police guard in full chador (full covered except her face) came screaming and yelling at my sister to cover her hair. Of course at this point with me asleep in her arms her hair cover was coming off more and more. Which made this women even more mad. My mom who was several feet walking behind us intervened and in a motherly tone told the young women " dont you see this poor sick child shes holding, how do you expect her to keep her chador on" the story as it was told me years later by my sister reminded me of the daily struggles women had to go through under sharia law. My wife and i might be pregnant. What if shes a girl? how can i wish for her to live under sharia law? or if she is raped and becomes pregnant that crazy religous poeple would force her to go through a pregnancy from rape. We have to evolve from religion. We just have to. We cannot be politically correct about the kim davis of this world we just cant. And every follower of his or her religion has to be CRITICAL of there own hosue of worship. We have to self criticize self think self evolve. When you question a religion and that could mean a death sentence or being shunned by your community means that were still in the dark ages in some manner.

yuiyoshida

(42,767 posts)
53. I totally understand...
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 02:23 AM
Dec 2015

A few years ago, I was going to school at the University of California at Berkeley. I was taking Asian studies when in my reading came upon a curious thing. It seemed that at one time when Buddhism came to Japan, there were some great major difficulties, because Shinto was already established and born in Japan. Eventually some wise monk, thought it would be best if the two Religions merged, so it turned out that Buddhism would have to do with what happens after death, while Shinto took on what happens in Birth and Life... this made both factions happy, because both of their Religions were now acceptable.

Then the West showed up and with it the Christian Religion. At first the Portuguese monks only seemed to have an interest in trade, with Japan, but soon the Missionaries came, which was intolerable for the SHOGUN, who ran Japan at the time. The Shogun eventually became fed up with this new religion, because though it, he seemed to be losing power, and people were starting to think that they would not obey the Shogun, so the Shogun decided, that's it, were closing Japan off to the WEST and all Christians were to leave Japan or die.

Well, needless to say many were killed, some crucified like their own Christ, and others beheaded by the Samurai who were loyal to the shogun. Those who were left, had to hide, and Christianity went underground...but because Japan is influenced by superstition, no one wanted to convert to this new religion. Its why there are less than .1% Christians living in Japan today, the majority of the population is Buddhist-Shinto. The rest are simply Atheists.

Its also the reason there are far less Muslims in Japan, as Japan has made the religion unwelcomed. (referring to this: http://www.democraticunderground.com/12502927)

The text books that I read went into great detail telling what was done to Christians back then who were discovered after the Shogun's ruling. When I was living in Utah for a while, I would often overhear missionaries being frustrated about going to Japan. Many of them hated to go because they simply could not convert anyone. Many Japanese walked away from anyone who was trying to convert them to this Religion.

And yet, Japan still has Meri Kurisumasu. Why? Its not celebrated as a Religious holiday in Japan, but as a Romantic holiday, like Valentines day here in the states. Yes there are lots of evergreens lit up with lights, and presents under the tree. There are Christmas songs but most of those are the Non Religious kind. Christmas in Japan is a holiday for lovers; people will buy a nice white vanilla icing cake with strawberries and give it to their loved ones. But you won't see anyone celebrating Christmas in the ways we do here in the west, by those going to High Mass at midnight, or filling churches. Again, superstitious Japanese will not go against their natural grain. People work on Christmas, in Japan. The major holiday comes later at New Years. That is a huge holiday in Japan.

The world is filled with so many wonderful mysteries.

moondust

(20,470 posts)
38. Does anybody in the Middle East
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 01:22 AM
Dec 2015

teach tolerance, appreciation of diversity, and social harmony instead of how to kill each other?

http://www.tolerance.org/

 

KamaAina

(78,249 posts)
79. I was interested in the Baha'i Faith many years ago
Mon Dec 7, 2015, 04:32 PM
Dec 2015

but jumped off the train when I found out that their leadership is all male, because "Baha'ullah said so".

I'm male, but "this is what a feminist looks like".

LittleGirl

(8,450 posts)
42. Welcome to DU and thank you...
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 01:41 AM
Dec 2015

Why or what made you leave the religion? I am a former catholic so I'm curious. What made you leave it? What did your family say about you leaving it? Were you outcast? Were you threatened? Is that why there are so few ex-muslims?

I have an opinion so just let me say this...my husband travels around the globe and had to travel to Saudi recently. It was one of those places I would never ever consider visiting because of the way they treat women there. I feel to deny the woman's role in life is to deny mankind. Without women, the population would cease to exist and therefore women should be treated fairly and with respect. To cover your women (burkas etc) is against my religion (of humanity) and I will not visit a country that believes in treating half of the human race that way. Don't even get me started on how they need an escort or can't drive. It's inhumane. To me, making women cover up like that is more sinful. And the men walk around like they own the world. It's total b.s. to me and I could never understand that about islam.

You're probably in bed already so I look forward to reading your response tomorrow.



agnostic102

(198 posts)
49. please
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 02:01 AM
Dec 2015

read my post on 37. it has some experiences. ill post more. but women under sharia law do not have the same rights as men. far from it.

CJCRANE

(18,184 posts)
52. It's the *funding* that makes the difference.
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 02:23 AM
Dec 2015

The west and our allies have been supporting the sunni radical version of Islam since the 80s.

High oil prices during the Bush era meant that the oil sheiks built up a two trillion dollar war chest.
.
Now with social media they can recruit people from anywhere and everywhere in the world.

sibelian

(7,804 posts)
59. Hello agnosti102... thank you very much for posting this.
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 09:34 AM
Dec 2015

I may as well be honest - I have been very critical of Islam on this board in the past, in fact there is a thread on the front page started by me at the moment - it's an imaginary argument between me and a fictitious opponent regarding Islam and Mulsims. If you have read it, I hope it has not annoyed you, and if you have yet to read it I'd like to reassure you that the respect I speak of in that thread is genuine. Muslims are the loveliest people. There are several families living in my road.

This passage struck me -

"He would tell me how when i land in america all the trees were in the shapes of animals. That all children got there own bikes. That in every home there was a big box of toys and games for every children that lived there."

!!!

You should write for a living!

Also, I would like to thank you for telling us your feelings on watching the execution of gays. I'm gay and it means a great deal to me that you have spoken about it.

agnostic102

(198 posts)
62. Hey Jr
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 04:42 PM
Dec 2015

I dont know if its my up bringing in iran but im a bit afraid of calling my self an athiest. just in case there is a god i dont want to be fully condemned to hell. haha.. see this crap religion ingrains you with? no matter how much you leave it. a part of you is still paranoid. So atleast for now i consider my self an agnostic. but you mentioned you were an ex-muslim. which country are you from if i may ask.

kentuck

(112,870 posts)
64. Will Sunni Wahabis always have a problem adapting to the western culture?
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 06:07 PM
Dec 2015

Will they always be "infidels"?

treestar

(82,383 posts)
65. Thanks or this thread
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 06:24 PM
Dec 2015

It has been interesting to read.

I echo the poster above in that, leaving Islam, did you do so publicly and if so, how did your family react? Were they not all that religious to start?

I come from a Catholic family that is very religious by at least their words, and I don't have the nerve to declare to them I don't follow or totally agree with various Catholic doctrines. I keep that in my head but don't talk about it with them.

Snobblevitch

(1,958 posts)
67. My doctor (a general practitioner) seems to have a similar
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 07:08 PM
Dec 2015

background as you. He got out of Iran as a teen in 1990.

I realize my post isn't really about Islam, but about escaping dictatorships. I had a friend who's family bribed their way out of Romania in the 1970s.

My grandfather escaped the Tsar, and my grandmother got out of the USSR under Lenin.

There has been a lot of criticsm of the U.S. on D.U. the past few days, but people from all over the world still wish to come here.

lindysalsagal

(22,395 posts)
68. All religions served their purposes thousands of years ago. It's over now.
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 09:42 PM
Dec 2015

We are one world. We are one people. Anyone who actually believes in a god must accept that new reality, since we each hold a cell phone and therefore the entire world in our hands.

IMHO, religions belong in museums. Period.

agnostic102

(198 posts)
74. Hey Frodos
Mon Dec 7, 2015, 02:55 PM
Dec 2015

Thank you! I added a section to OP about anti-semtism. I wanted to talk about anti-semtism not just in the muslim community but as middle easterners of all religions in general. Please read the original post for the updated comments.

agnostic102

(198 posts)
78. sorry
Mon Dec 7, 2015, 04:28 PM
Dec 2015

sorry it took me a while to type it out. Its under anti-semetism in the OP. it should be there now if anyone wants to read it.

agnostic102

(198 posts)
81. Kama
Mon Dec 7, 2015, 04:46 PM
Dec 2015

I honestly dont know?? growing up even america i was never allowed to have animals. The thought of a dirty dog dirtying my moms pristine living room was out of the question. It wasnt until she was older and i brought her home a baby pomchi/pomerianian that she fell in love.

Now that she doesnt have grand children. Bodie as is the name of the dog i got her is her little baby. She tells me that if anything happens to bodie she would die of greife. Persian mothers love too much sometimes. But agian i dont know why. i just saw a video from iran on my facebook feed of iranian city workers euthniizing a dog right on the street and grabbing it by its neck and throwing it in a truck. I have to be honest. Not much can make me cry. but seeing animals hurt especially dogs are too painful for me. I had to click off the video.

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