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loyalsister

(13,390 posts)
Sun Dec 20, 2015, 04:43 PM Dec 2015

Salon: The United States is scarier than the Islamic State


I have been very behind in educating myself on ISIL. I'm amazed at how similar they are to Christian fundamentalists in using endtimes prophecies to manipulate people. I can't help but wonder how the substance of some of the war mongering we hear (and what is said in religious groups behind closed doors) is truly different from the terrorist leaders? Do our power and technology dress up the very same phenmomenon? Getting this many people to die for an endtimes cause is Jim Jones shit.

Even our closest allies fear that we are a menace militarily and environmentally

In addition, the Iraq War convinced a whole generation of Muslims — both Sunni and Shi’ite — that the end of the world is imminent, leading to a rise of apocalyptic fervor in the Middle East. As the Islamic scholar David Cook notes, it was “widely accepted” that the U.S.-led war fulfilled certain Islamic prophecies, and in fact a leading Shia militia in Iraq whose explicit aim was to expel the foreign invaders named itself the Mahdi Army after Islam’s end-of-days messianic figure, the Mahdi. A 2014 Reuters article even cites a Shi’ite fighter as saying that he became convinced that the end was nigh after the U.S. and Britain invaded Iraq. “That was the first sign,” he said, “and then everything else followed.”


What’s perhaps most fascinating about this situation is that Trump appears to be peddling his own apocalyptic narrative to his followers, the least educated Americans. According to Chip Berlet, a scholar of right-wing and apocalyptic movements, Trump’s followers are fixated on urgent phenomena — from China and ISIS to illegal immigration and economic uncertainty — that together create an apocalyptic climate in which a messianic figure of some sort is needed to “save” the believers. As Berlet puts it, “current leaders are corrupt and betraying us, [and] the middle class is having its pocket picked by the parasites below. So white Christians say they have to build a wall to protect themselves from raping and murdering Mexican neighbors, meanwhile registering and rounding up Muslims because they’re plotting terrorism. That’s a pretty good apocalyptic scenario because those threats are existential to the U.S.” The result is, of course, that Muslims are further alienated and the “clash of eschatologies” is ossified, which is exactly what the Islamic State wants. In a sense, it’s a win-win for fundamentalisms.
http://www.salon.com/2015/12/20/the_united_states_is_scarier_than_the_islamic_state/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=socialflow



Trump and republicans may be employing this most efficiently, but I really think it's in response to a large number of endtimes fundamentalists. They are the ones who worry that gay marriage and abortion will visit some kind of armegeddon rage upon us. Democrats are not above pandering to them. We need to pay close attentions to local elections!
They attacked evolution by getting on school boards where they could.


73 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Salon: The United States is scarier than the Islamic State (Original Post) loyalsister Dec 2015 OP
This message was self-deleted by its author polichick Dec 2015 #1
salon is nothing more than click-bait at this point. Mosby Dec 2015 #2
Yep. Dr. Strange Dec 2015 #4
I stopped at a truck stop in Cairo, Illinois Facility Inspector Dec 2015 #3
Yep....and they turned me into a newt!!!..... EX500rider Dec 2015 #5
they just threw me off a building for being gay dlwickham Dec 2015 #6
To be fair, those bakers in the US who refuse to bake cakes for gay weddings are terrifying (nt) Nye Bevan Dec 2015 #7
They have to be sued here madville Dec 2015 #10
Just a normal day in Cairo, Illinois leftyladyfrommo Dec 2015 #8
In Columbia, my Muslim friends are very afraid loyalsister Dec 2015 #30
I think Columbia is a lot more conservative leftyladyfrommo Dec 2015 #32
With it's marijuana decriminalization and 3 colleges? loyalsister Dec 2015 #44
I don't know how far right wing they are. leftyladyfrommo Dec 2015 #51
I have family spread out in those areas loyalsister Dec 2015 #52
I think the headquarters for the Church of the Nazerines leftyladyfrommo Dec 2015 #54
Part of Jesus Camp was filmed in Lee's Summit loyalsister Dec 2015 #58
I word for several years with a Pentacostal preacher. leftyladyfrommo Dec 2015 #60
I was once Catholic loyalsister Dec 2015 #64
I have to admit I love the Mass. leftyladyfrommo Dec 2015 #67
Artification... loyalsister Dec 2015 #72
The invasion of Iraq alone ronnie624 Dec 2015 #12
Just look at the last Republican debate. cpwm17 Dec 2015 #14
Americans, generally speaking, ronnie624 Dec 2015 #20
You have to be joking Yorktown Dec 2015 #31
Those casualties are a result of a civil war, ronnie624 Dec 2015 #33
The ill effects of Islam are not limited to terrorism Yorktown Dec 2015 #35
How do terrorists ronnie624 Dec 2015 #41
Because western powers have no appetite for carnage Yorktown Dec 2015 #42
I would think that the people that live in the numerous nations that the US has bombed cpwm17 Dec 2015 #13
I was able to select from at least 10 different cheeseburger vendors Facility Inspector Dec 2015 #70
Last time I knew cpwm17 Dec 2015 #71
The people angriest at ISIL are certainly the most like ISIL. DirkGently Dec 2015 #9
They have power to do these things incrementally AND legally loyalsister Dec 2015 #17
Yes. Hundreds of laws. Religious extremism is thriving in America. DirkGently Dec 2015 #25
We're doing it "our" way- legally loyalsister Dec 2015 #28
The ones angriest at Isis are the families of the victims of Isis LittleBlue Dec 2015 #39
The Republicans who want to make the "sand glow?" DirkGently Dec 2015 #63
Salon hasn't been the same jamzrockz Dec 2015 #11
What is happening to the refugees loyalsister Dec 2015 #19
That's true. romanic Dec 2015 #47
Nobody takes salon seriously. linuxman Dec 2015 #15
Why not? ronnie624 Dec 2015 #23
And yet we and other countries are taking tens of thousands of refugees fleeing Isis. Bluenorthwest Dec 2015 #36
Our government's conduct is responsible for more problems in the world than terrorism. ronnie624 Dec 2015 #37
Those foolish refugees don't know fear from safety! To be decent people we should sent them back Bluenorthwest Dec 2015 #55
Our policies in the ME ronnie624 Dec 2015 #62
World support for violence against civilians (the US leads): cpwm17 Dec 2015 #16
Seems to go by whose civilians are most likely DirkGently Dec 2015 #26
Like most things, Blue_In_AK Dec 2015 #18
It isn't just a matter of perspective. ronnie624 Dec 2015 #21
This message was self-deleted by its author Scootaloo Dec 2015 #27
To Muslim citizens in this country loyalsister Dec 2015 #22
Anti gay violece is far more common than anti Muslim violence, always has been and DU will never Bluenorthwest Dec 2015 #56
I agree with both of you. Blue_In_AK Dec 2015 #24
The third goofy whining salon thread I've clicked on today... ileus Dec 2015 #29
Are there some factual errors you'd like to call attention to? ronnie624 Dec 2015 #34
Let me know when we buy and sell women in slave markets. LittleBlue Dec 2015 #38
let me me know ronnie624 Dec 2015 #43
If Isis had our capabilites militarily LittleBlue Dec 2015 #45
"Isis" wouldn't even exist ronnie624 Dec 2015 #49
Completely agree LittleBlue Dec 2015 #50
That's what ISIS or AQMI/Ansar Dine managed Yorktown Dec 2015 #46
One would hope so Egnever Dec 2015 #40
Once again romanic Dec 2015 #48
Print it out and use it for birdcage lining. Quantess Dec 2015 #53
Well, sure. Heck, climate change is scarier than just about anything. raouldukelives Dec 2015 #57
What a stupid title. NaturalHigh Dec 2015 #59
Is anyone stopping Salon from relocating there? Waiting For Everyman Dec 2015 #61
The damage done by the US "war on terror" is very well understood. ronnie624 Dec 2015 #65
Comparing ISIS to the US may be apples and oranges, cpwm17 Dec 2015 #66
Absolutely. ronnie624 Dec 2015 #68
Yes Mexico & Canada tremble in fear at their terrible neighbor....lol EX500rider Dec 2015 #69
It would make more sense ronnie624 Dec 2015 #73

Response to loyalsister (Original post)

 

Facility Inspector

(615 posts)
3. I stopped at a truck stop in Cairo, Illinois
Sun Dec 20, 2015, 05:18 PM
Dec 2015

And got swarmed by retrofitted pick up trucks with machine guns mounted in the beds.

A group of fundamentalist christians compelled me to convert to Christianity then sliced my head off for being an apostate.

madville

(7,397 posts)
10. They have to be sued here
Sun Dec 20, 2015, 05:51 PM
Dec 2015

in order to be forced to take our money and then in return make a few hundred thousand on a GoFundMe page, terrifying indeed.

leftyladyfrommo

(18,816 posts)
8. Just a normal day in Cairo, Illinois
Sun Dec 20, 2015, 05:42 PM
Dec 2015

Haven't noticed anything like that in KC recently. But you never know. We have a whole lot of Bible beating going on here. If they all get machetes it could be a blood bath for left leaning Democrats like me.

loyalsister

(13,390 posts)
30. In Columbia, my Muslim friends are very afraid
Sun Dec 20, 2015, 10:00 PM
Dec 2015

They don't want to be seen going into the mosque, and have had people call them terrorists.

leftyladyfrommo

(18,816 posts)
32. I think Columbia is a lot more conservative
Sun Dec 20, 2015, 10:18 PM
Dec 2015

than Kansas City. Not saying that we don't have our share of hysterical bigots but I haven't heard about any problems do far.

I kind of wish the women wouldn't wear their scarves for a while. I'm afraid it makes them targets. We have so many races and so many religions around here that no one can tell who is who just by looking. But those scarves are like waving a red flag at some of our worst fanatics.

I read that a couple of women had been shot at but I don't know where it was.

loyalsister

(13,390 posts)
44. With it's marijuana decriminalization and 3 colleges?
Mon Dec 21, 2015, 12:21 AM
Dec 2015

Hardly. There was a bit of a spiteful rightward bent, but for the most part the city has recovered. We still went for Obama both times. I expect the city council will pass a marijuana horticulture decriminalization measure, too.
In terms of demographics, there are people from all over the world studying here. There's a mosque and a Hindu temple which usually exist very comfortably. There are quite a few Muslim business owners. We once had a coffee shop called Osama's. It was great because it had a fireplace and basically sat on campus. They got some threats after 911, but there was a lot of community support. Eventually Osama's other coffee shop won out.

The small towns that surround us are RW and voters in the outskirts pushed the election of a republican state senator and mayor largely out of spite.

I know there's a liberal Kansas City bubble. But if you venture over to the KS side (Mission Hills, Leawood). The IndependenceLee's Summit areas and the northland are pretty RW.

leftyladyfrommo

(18,816 posts)
51. I don't know how far right wing they are.
Mon Dec 21, 2015, 03:46 AM
Dec 2015

I know they are Republicans for the most part. Johnson County is mostly business people and Republican but I think they tend to be old line Republicans . My aunt lives out there and she said it's about 80 percent Republicans.

I never go out to Lee's Summit but I know there are some big fundamentalist churches out that way. We have a big bible believing Baptist Church pretty close to me and those guys are just plain mean. And we have a lot of Catopics here North. We have a lot of Catholic churches all around.


But I haven't heard about any trouble so far.



loyalsister

(13,390 posts)
52. I have family spread out in those areas
Mon Dec 21, 2015, 05:09 AM
Dec 2015

Family and friends provide me with a pretty large sample. My family on the KS side does not reflect the region politically. They are the most liberal. Lee's Summit people are excessively religious and fall for the fundie crap.

Liberty peeps are the most right wing. There's a pretty influential Catholic church and a Baptist megachurch along with many others. As a kid, my parents decided to experiemnt with churches. They took us to one that had a preacher who would make John Edwards proud. It was terrifying!
Most of my family and former classmates in Liberty and Kearney area are way RW.

leftyladyfrommo

(18,816 posts)
54. I think the headquarters for the Church of the Nazerines
Mon Dec 21, 2015, 06:22 AM
Dec 2015

Is out Lee'S Summit way.

I spent 6 years in Salt Lake city so nothing seems all that bad to me.

I just stay away from the Right wingers. Most of my friends are Catholic and some of them are pretty liberal. Thank goodness.

loyalsister

(13,390 posts)
58. Part of Jesus Camp was filmed in Lee's Summit
Mon Dec 21, 2015, 09:51 AM
Dec 2015

That documentary was SOOO creepy!

A Pentacostal church sits next to the elementary school I attended in Liberty. I can't remember for sure if it was there when I was a student there.

My friends in Columbia are awesomely liberal. Family (especially the Liberty folkd) that I have to see on occassion are horribly RW. Sadly, I have to see them or create an extreme disrution. I avoid that conflict, but I do speak up.

leftyladyfrommo

(18,816 posts)
60. I word for several years with a Pentacostal preacher.
Mon Dec 21, 2015, 11:25 AM
Dec 2015

He was one of the most hateful people I ever met. But that is just one guy so you can't just judge everyone by him. He just hated the Catholics. But I did get him on that one. He had a terribly disabled daughter who needed pretty much round the clock care. So one morning I told him about the Sisters of Mercy who have a convent here in the KC area. They are all medical people. They wear white kind of old fashioned habits. I'm not sure just what they do during the day when they aren't trying to get some sleep but at night they fan out all over the city to homes where there are family members who need round the clock care. And they sit and watch and give medical attention all night long so that family members can get some rest.

He kind of looked at me funny and then said that that was really a nice thing for them to do. I'm not Catholic but I never told him that. I don't agree with everything the nuns do but they also do some really nice things in service to the poor in this town. I wouldn't want to get into a religious debate with them but I admire them.

loyalsister

(13,390 posts)
64. I was once Catholic
Mon Dec 21, 2015, 12:33 PM
Dec 2015

Then, my mom followed my dad's wishes and left the church. I have known a lot of catholics who are true to values that I respect. My grandma is anti-war, anti- death penalty, and whole heartedly believes in helping poor people. Of course abortion is the sticking point, but I do respect her consistency. I know some pro-choice liberal Catholics.

I agree with you about nuns. They really are dedicated and they make a positive difference in the lives of many people.

leftyladyfrommo

(18,816 posts)
67. I have to admit I love the Mass.
Mon Dec 21, 2015, 02:31 PM
Dec 2015

I don't agree with a lot of the stuff but I think the Mass is beautiful. Sometimes I go and just sit in the back where no one notices me and listen.

loyalsister

(13,390 posts)
72. Artification...
Mon Dec 21, 2015, 08:47 PM
Dec 2015

I saw an anthropologist give a talk on the artistic elements of religion. The idea is that the rituals and literature are based in artistic expression as much as anything. It was really interesting.

ronnie624

(5,764 posts)
12. The invasion of Iraq alone
Sun Dec 20, 2015, 06:04 PM
Dec 2015

caused more death, destruction and misery than all of the terrorist attacks in the entire world combined for the past 100 years.

Your post clearly illustrates the perception management of the collective American worldview, where no matter what sort of violence the US government perpetrates, it isn't regarded as harmful. This is an attitude that poses a serious impediment to world peace and cooperation.

 

cpwm17

(3,829 posts)
14. Just look at the last Republican debate.
Sun Dec 20, 2015, 06:13 PM
Dec 2015

It was all about scary Muslims and war.

I guess some American seem to be under the impression that all of our wars are just natural disasters, or that brown lives don't matter.

ronnie624

(5,764 posts)
20. Americans, generally speaking,
Sun Dec 20, 2015, 06:35 PM
Dec 2015

even those presumably informed ones on a progressive discussion forum, are ill-equiped to draw rational conclusions about this sort of issue. Reform to education is definitely a top priority.

ronnie624

(5,764 posts)
33. Those casualties are a result of a civil war,
Sun Dec 20, 2015, 10:49 PM
Dec 2015

not a foreign invasion or terrorism.

People throughout the world consider the US to be the biggest threat to world peace, not terrorists or the combatants of a civil war that ended years ago.

 

Yorktown

(2,884 posts)
35. The ill effects of Islam are not limited to terrorism
Sun Dec 20, 2015, 11:02 PM
Dec 2015

The Algerian civil war was to a large degree religiously motivated
The Shia/Sunni wars are religiously motivated

So there is a good case for religion (today, Islam) being the biggest threat to world peace

Tomorrow, Chinese nationalism will also be a solid candidate for global mayhem
Have you noticed all the countries in maritime disputes with China?

The USA being the lone big bad wolf will have lasted twelve years: 1989-2001

 

Yorktown

(2,884 posts)
42. Because western powers have no appetite for carnage
Mon Dec 21, 2015, 12:01 AM
Dec 2015

Therefore the mighty US Air Force and Navy are of very limited use.

Look at Mali: islamists almost succeeded in taking over a whole country.



 

cpwm17

(3,829 posts)
13. I would think that the people that live in the numerous nations that the US has bombed
Sun Dec 20, 2015, 06:09 PM
Dec 2015

or have been bombed with US supplied weapons by US supported nations may disagree with you. The US has long shown that it is the world's greatest threat to world peace.

[URL=.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL]

 

Facility Inspector

(615 posts)
70. I was able to select from at least 10 different cheeseburger vendors
Mon Dec 21, 2015, 06:02 PM
Dec 2015

and could do all of this without going through a military checkpoint.

 

cpwm17

(3,829 posts)
71. Last time I knew
Mon Dec 21, 2015, 06:26 PM
Dec 2015

the US isn't one of the many nations the US military is bombing, or has bombed.



Though driving through the US Southwest you will likely run into numerous border patrol (feels like military) checkpoints, usually many miles from the border.





This seems rather inappropriate for an alleged free country. I wonder how people put up with this authoritarian crap.

DirkGently

(12,151 posts)
9. The people angriest at ISIL are certainly the most like ISIL.
Sun Dec 20, 2015, 05:47 PM
Dec 2015

The problem the Republicans see is not the rise of religious fundamentalists who reject reason, embrace cruelty and violence, and try to destroy anyone not in their cultural tribe.

It's just that to them, it's the wrong tribe doing it.

I see people in the thread curling their lip at the comparison, but our conservatives espouse the same levels of intolerance, the same contempt for reason and the rights of others; the same utter lack of empathy or moral compunction.

And our leaders -- even our minor ones -- have far, far greater actual physical power in the world than the latest Muslim extremist group.

Mike Huckabee, who has been taken semi-seriously as a Presidential candidate, and who has been a governor in a state probably larger than anything ISIL will ever control, has said that the Bible takes precedence over the Constitution, and that women only want reproductive healthcare because liberals have convinced them they can't control their own libidos.

Jeb Bush, a member of America's most powerful political family, suggested that incoming refugees be screened to allow in only Christians.

The entire most recent Republican debate was a contest to see who could sound the most extreme and ferocious in their proposed response to the San Bernadino shootings, because it was apparently motivated by radical Islam. Not a peep about the previous mass shooting by a conservative Christian nut motivated by a hatred of Planned Parenthood. Or the other rightwing nut who murdered Sikhs at their own house of worship, because he equated them with Muslims. Or the other rightwing nut who shot a conservative Christian to death because he thought he was Jewish. Or the other rightwing nut who murdered black people in a church for racist reasons. Or the previous rightwing nut who shot some people in his apartment complex because they were Indian and he thought they were in his parking space.

Chris Hayes asked Republican Rep. Steve King about the parallels between the PP shooting and San Bernadino, and he literally smirked and said his religion doesn't agree with Planned Parenthood, so ...

He essentially said it was fine. The same Mr. King smirked the same way when yet another rightwing nut flew a plane into an IRS building and killed a custodian. He could "understand the impulse" or some such thing.

And of course Donald Trump, who appears to be consciously mocking the conservative id, is winning by proposing we execute entire families and block Muslim fleeing ISIL from entering the country, while encouraging his supporters to drag protesters at his events out by their heels.

Most of the Republican field seems to support intrusive surveillance and the torture of prisoners (maybe not Rand Paul, but who's listening to that guy?)

Most of them likewise have no problem adopting the stance that scientists are probably lying about the effects of carbon on the environment to make pollution seem like a bad idea.

Most of them, including the new Republican Speaker of the House, espouse a "no exceptions" outlawing of abortion, and would force rape victims and children to give birth, and investigate miscarriages as possible "murder," a thing which is happening already in this country.

We DO have within our "mainstream" establishment people every bit as contemptuous of the rule of law, of objective truth, or of human rights, as the most bloodthirsty Islamic radicals. The fact that they have not gotten everything they want at the moment is not as big a difference as people would like to pretend.

So how different are "we," really?

loyalsister

(13,390 posts)
17. They have power to do these things incrementally AND legally
Sun Dec 20, 2015, 06:26 PM
Dec 2015

"We DO have within our "mainstream" establishment people every bit as contemptuous of the rule of law, of objective truth, or of human rights, as the most bloodthirsty Islamic radicals. The fact that they have not gotten everything they want at the moment is not as big a difference as people would like to pretend."


How many laws making it harder to get an abortion will pass before the Supreme Court sees them for what they are — part of a tireless, coordinated nationwide assault on the right of women to control what happens with their own bodies without the interference of politicians?

One answer is, no fewer than 288. That’s how many abortion restrictions states have enacted since the beginning of 2011, when aggressively anti-choice lawmakers swept into statehouses around the country.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/20/opinion/sunday/the-reproductive-rights-rollback-of-2015.html?mwrsm=Facebook


Their agenda is being codified in law. Textbooks that deny history and science are being adopted. Westboro Baptist church developed a strategy to perpetuate their hate nationally. Something will fill that void.
We dismiss the bakers and clerks at our peril because the haters are always looking for like minded individuals to rally around. They find them among the cheerleaders for anti- <whatever> hate, and more quietly in their local church groups.

DirkGently

(12,151 posts)
25. Yes. Hundreds of laws. Religious extremism is thriving in America.
Sun Dec 20, 2015, 07:48 PM
Dec 2015

... with all the primitive thinking about human rights, the role of women in society and insistence on pre-scientific views of the physical world that entails.

I fell into some Internet hole today where people were talking about "the biggest lie you ever believed." There was a striking number of responses from people brought up in fundamentalist Christian schools who were taught that "fossils are a lie planted by Satan," and that there used to be an "extra canopy of oxygen" on the earth that allowed people to live for hundreds of years. In their private-school SCIENCE class. They literally had to unlearn these things to accept what most of us would think of as basic objective reality.

I read too that the PP clinic in Colorado, which is still closed due to the shootings there, *already has protesters* hanging plastic baby dolls in the trees and screaming at anyone who walks near.

We cannot be like this. Reason cannot be an option people can subscribe to or not. I don't know how proud we can be that we are not beheading apostates in the public square or selling women to soldiers, simply because the people pushing us in those directions have not gotten us all the way there yet.

loyalsister

(13,390 posts)
28. We're doing it "our" way- legally
Sun Dec 20, 2015, 08:30 PM
Dec 2015

and with constitutional protection. I'm not advocating removing that protection, but rejecting any sense of social resposibility for terrorizing people on that basis enables the most hateful expressions and actions to thrive and increase. Likewise, just because we have a history of book burning does not justify textbooks full of lies, and the anti-intellectualism that denies any validity of gray areas.

The faulty 2nd amendment interpretation that is now so embedded in our culture that few people are outraged when someone is shot based on fear- even if they are unarmed and walking away, and especially if the shooter works for the government.

Any text can be interpreted in ways that have negative consequences.
Freedom of speech is understood by many as freedom to greatly offend and even terrorize people without social responsibility. People reject the possibility of inciteful speech on that premise and hate festers into motivation and action. Especially if it is based in religion.

But, we were founded on religious freedom and we're the greatest country in the world because of that AND because we don't stone or behead people.

 

LittleBlue

(10,362 posts)
39. The ones angriest at Isis are the families of the victims of Isis
Sun Dec 20, 2015, 11:39 PM
Dec 2015

And Shia, who are killed automatically by Isis for being apostates. Pretty sure many of the women and girls held as sex slaves are pretty mad at Isis before being raped to death.

Comparing the Republicans to Isis discredits the left.

DirkGently

(12,151 posts)
63. The Republicans who want to make the "sand glow?"
Mon Dec 21, 2015, 12:12 PM
Dec 2015

The ones who suggest American women should be strapped down and forced to give birth against their will? Who want to prosecute them for murder for a miscarriage?

The ones who want a religious test for who can hold office or enter the country?

The ones who rage about one mass shooting by one kind of extremist but have little to say about mass shootings committed by their own lunatics?

The ones who mock our own human rights standards and say we should execute families in acts of revenge and torture prisoners?

No. Republicans and Christian extremists discredit themselves. They are not only no better than Muslim extremists, but strengthen and enable them by proposing that America be vicious and intolerant as the worst of our enemies. They are so stupid and dishonest that they use the idea of a worldwide religious war to try to garner support. They make the arguments of Muslim extremists for them and perpetuate the same small minded ignorance.

Republicans haven't lost anyone to ISIL. They enabled the wars that allowed them to seek power, and then imply that the real conflict is between Islam and Christianity, which is a sickening lie.

Defending them discredits the country.

 

jamzrockz

(1,333 posts)
11. Salon hasn't been the same
Sun Dec 20, 2015, 05:52 PM
Dec 2015

since Glen Greenwald left that joint. The US is so scary that people escaping the IS are coming to the US. Add that to the millions of people not escaping the IS and still want to come here.

And no, I didn't even read the article, just reacting to the ridiculous title of the article.

loyalsister

(13,390 posts)
19. What is happening to the refugees
Sun Dec 20, 2015, 06:32 PM
Dec 2015

and Muslim citizens in the US? People are living in fear in the US because of the Islamaphobia endorsed and stoked by politicians who are reflecting what they hear from people on the ground.

romanic

(2,841 posts)
47. That's true.
Mon Dec 21, 2015, 01:28 AM
Dec 2015

But Muslims are still miles (no more like lightyears) safer living in the U.S. or any other civilized country versus the fucking hellhole "caliphate".

 

linuxman

(2,337 posts)
15. Nobody takes salon seriously.
Sun Dec 20, 2015, 06:21 PM
Dec 2015

I'm pretty sure it's some kind of mocking, right wing, leftist-caricature performance art.

ronnie624

(5,764 posts)
23. Why not?
Sun Dec 20, 2015, 07:42 PM
Dec 2015

Are there some inaccuracies you can point to?

I strongly suspect that being confronted by the crimes committed by your own government, simply causes you some cognitive discomfort.

 

Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)
36. And yet we and other countries are taking tens of thousands of refugees fleeing Isis.
Sun Dec 20, 2015, 11:05 PM
Dec 2015

If we are worse why are they risking life and limb and loved ones to run from them and to us? Are these refugees just stark raving idiots in your view? Why don't they refuse to come here and demand to go to some other country, like Saudi Arabia if they despise us so?

ronnie624

(5,764 posts)
37. Our government's conduct is responsible for more problems in the world than terrorism.
Sun Dec 20, 2015, 11:30 PM
Dec 2015

It causes more deaths and more damage than terrorism, and not by a small margin, either. This is conclusively demonstrated by the historical record. This doesn't mean that Saudi Arabia is a more secure place to live than the US.

 

Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)
55. Those foolish refugees don't know fear from safety! To be decent people we should sent them back
Mon Dec 21, 2015, 08:05 AM
Dec 2015

to the loving arms of Isis, since they are our superiors. Hugely daft post. I suppose for heterosexuals like yourself ISIS is welcoming and comforting. It is an organization comprised of straight people who murder gay people.
I don't relate to your idea of that which is comforting. Sorry kid.

ronnie624

(5,764 posts)
62. Our policies in the ME
Mon Dec 21, 2015, 12:07 PM
Dec 2015

are a major cause of the religious and political extremism there. The global economic order and its energy system absolutely must change, if we expect to achieve social justice for all and to mitigate the impending climate disasters.

I never commented on the Syrian refugees (for the record, I would not send them back), so your post doesn't make much sense to me. Clearly, our political leaders didn't think things through thoroughly, before they launched their illegal, morally illegitimate invasion of Iraq.

 

cpwm17

(3,829 posts)
16. World support for violence against civilians (the US leads):
Sun Dec 20, 2015, 06:26 PM
Dec 2015
http://www.gallup.com/poll/157067/views-violence.aspx

While the majority of world citizens agree that military attacks targeting civilians are never justified, a decade after 9/11, there is a wide range in the level of support for this view. A clear majority in Asia and MENA (Middle East and North Africa) find military attacks against civilians unacceptable. This is not surprising considering the acute conflicts raging in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, and other parts of the Middle East.

In contrast, regionally, residents of the U.S. and Canada are most likely to say that military attacks against civilians are sometimes justified. Americans are the most likely population in the world (49%) to believe military attacks targeting civilians is sometimes justified, followed by residents of Haiti and Israel (43%).


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DirkGently

(12,151 posts)
26. Seems to go by whose civilians are most likely
Sun Dec 20, 2015, 07:53 PM
Dec 2015

to be attacked. We are justifiably outraged by a mass shooting of 14 people, but our drones distribute death routinely, and we apparently just give ourselves permission to assume whoever dies was guilty of something.

"We were very callous about any real collateral damage," said Michael Haas, 29, who worked as both a drone operator and instructor. "Whenever that possibility came up, most of the time it was a 'guilt by association' or sometimes we didn't even consider other people that were on screen."

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/former-drone-pilots-denounce-morally-outrageous-program-n472496

Blue_In_AK

(46,436 posts)
18. Like most things,
Sun Dec 20, 2015, 06:31 PM
Dec 2015

the truth or lack thereof in this article depends on one's perspective. To us, it probably seems hyperbolic, but to a civilian in Iraq, for instance, this might seem perfectly reasonable.

ronnie624

(5,764 posts)
21. It isn't just a matter of perspective.
Sun Dec 20, 2015, 07:27 PM
Dec 2015

The violence of the US invasion of Iraq and the damage it caused are things that are easy to quantify, and Islamist terrorism does not even approach them.

Response to ronnie624 (Reply #21)

loyalsister

(13,390 posts)
22. To Muslim citizens in this country
Sun Dec 20, 2015, 07:35 PM
Dec 2015

who are living in fear because they encounter Donald Trumps attitudes regularly how is it different? I have talked with more than one and their fear is real.

The violence against black citizens is rooted in vengeance and fear justified with biblical "light and dark" references. I had a friend who was roped into it. She was convinced BY HER CHURCH that she was not responsible for her "sins" because the married black man led her into darkness. Soon she started spouting gay bashing, Islamic bashing, quoting Mike Huckabee and rejecting autonamy for women. They made her feel comfortable with the hate by convincing her that the only reason she would be invested is because she loves all people and wants all people to be saved. She justifies the beliefs and actions of fellow believers based on a belief that they did it out of love.

These groups are extremely dangerous and are at the root of the KKK, abortion clinic violence, gay bashing....

 

Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)
56. Anti gay violece is far more common than anti Muslim violence, always has been and DU will never
Mon Dec 21, 2015, 08:17 AM
Dec 2015

give a shit. It is that simple. If it is done to LGBT DU yawns and says 'what do they expect' but if it is done to a religious minority DU has threads of hundreds of posts equating that discrimination or violence to the end of the world and holding all America to account for it.

The double standard gets difficult to endure.

Blue_In_AK

(46,436 posts)
24. I agree with both of you.
Sun Dec 20, 2015, 07:43 PM
Dec 2015

Americans of the white Anglo-Saxon variety often have a hard time putting themselves in the shoes of others. We are so steeped in American (white Christian American) exceptionalism.

ronnie624

(5,764 posts)
34. Are there some factual errors you'd like to call attention to?
Sun Dec 20, 2015, 11:00 PM
Dec 2015

Setting the record straight would be very helpful.

 

LittleBlue

(10,362 posts)
38. Let me know when we buy and sell women in slave markets.
Sun Dec 20, 2015, 11:33 PM
Dec 2015

Astonishing how all these immigrants want in to the US from Isis territory. If only they knew how much worse it is here!

ronnie624

(5,764 posts)
43. let me me know
Mon Dec 21, 2015, 12:20 AM
Dec 2015

when terrorists develop the ability to launch invasions from half way across the world that result in the destruction of entire countries and the deaths of millions of people.

Terrorists are weak. They pose no threat to the global economic/political order. They lack the weapons and capacity to do so. But the best way to reduce that threat even further, is through a reevaluation of our government's policies that make people want to attack us. You can't murder women and children in other countries and then realistically expect the people there to not want to attack you for it.

 

LittleBlue

(10,362 posts)
45. If Isis had our capabilites militarily
Mon Dec 21, 2015, 12:24 AM
Dec 2015

The entire non-Muslim world would be conquered or be annihilated by nuclear weapons. The Shia countries would be nuked regarded as apostates (the official Isis punishment for apostasy).

Terrorists have a hard time striking us, but they terrorize Nigerians, Syrians, Libyan, Somalis, and others. Of course they don't count by your reckoning.

Nice try though.

ronnie624

(5,764 posts)
49. "Isis" wouldn't even exist
Mon Dec 21, 2015, 01:38 AM
Dec 2015

if not for the violent, self-serving policies of resource dominance employed by the US government. The Wests greed motivated meddling is the root cause of the extremism in Central Asia. US imperialism is the elephant in the living room, here.

 

LittleBlue

(10,362 posts)
50. Completely agree
Mon Dec 21, 2015, 03:06 AM
Dec 2015

I'm not one of these America infallible types. We are greatly culpable for Isis. It could be argued we are wholly to blame.

I just don't think we're equivalent.

Quantess

(27,630 posts)
53. Print it out and use it for birdcage lining.
Mon Dec 21, 2015, 05:29 AM
Dec 2015

Not worth the paper it's printed on, if it were on paper.

raouldukelives

(5,178 posts)
57. Well, sure. Heck, climate change is scarier than just about anything.
Mon Dec 21, 2015, 09:36 AM
Dec 2015

At least, to my pea brain.

ISIS could only dream of creating the terror and instability American corporations and shareholders have bequeathed us all. From the backing of China after the events of Tienanmen Square and the outsourcing of our manufacturing to avoid taking responsibility for cleaning up their own messes in this country to wars for resource control and the overthrowing of fledgling democracies to assure Wall St superiority.

We live in the most peace the MIC and Wall St will allow.

Waiting For Everyman

(9,385 posts)
61. Is anyone stopping Salon from relocating there?
Mon Dec 21, 2015, 11:44 AM
Dec 2015

Didn't think so. I invite them to vote with their feet.

The slam-the-US-thing is old. And I'm really not interested in any justification of terrorist sentiments.

ronnie624

(5,764 posts)
65. The damage done by the US "war on terror" is very well understood.
Mon Dec 21, 2015, 01:26 PM
Dec 2015

It's not as if anyone has to speculate about the chaos it has brought to the people of Central Asia.

You and I are safe, here in America, but over all, the US war on terror diminishes everyone's security, by increasing the risk for greater conflict.

 

cpwm17

(3,829 posts)
66. Comparing ISIS to the US may be apples and oranges,
Mon Dec 21, 2015, 02:07 PM
Dec 2015

but certainly the US causes more trouble on this earth than any nation.

Of course the US is a powerful nation and the opportunity is there. Unfortunately many people in the US are very full of themselves and have no problem screwing those that they consider inferior.

How often do you hear or see Americans make comments about turning foreign nations to glass, or similar type statements. Most people in this world don't think that way. That view is reflected in Americans' unmatched willingness to murder civilians, as the Gallup poll above indicates.

Recent history, going back decades, proves the terrible war-mongering nature of the US. The last Republican debate was mostly about war, and the leading Democrat also loves war. It is who we are. Most people appear to be fat-dumb-and-happy about this. Those bombs the US delivers are the scary brown people's problem.

ronnie624

(5,764 posts)
68. Absolutely.
Mon Dec 21, 2015, 02:48 PM
Dec 2015

Most people scrupulously avoid addressing the history and underlying motives for Western involvement in the ME along with its self-serving nature.

ronnie624

(5,764 posts)
73. It would make more sense
Tue Dec 22, 2015, 10:22 PM
Dec 2015

to ask the opinions of those who currently live with the chaos we have caused through our violent interventions in their countries.

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