Do fathers still expect to be asked permission to marry their daughter? Is this a sexist tradition?

[davidn3600]

Christmas, as anyone on social media will be painfully aware, is peak engagement time. It’s only a matter of hours before the grinning “I put a ring on it” diamond selfies start, if indeed they haven’t been cluttering up your news feed already.

Which is why I want to use this romantic season of goodwill to address one of the more hideous aspects of engagement etiquette: asking the bride’s dad for her hand in marriage.

In truth, there are many traditions surrounding marriage that make me feel queasy, but none is so medieval as that of a man asking a woman’s father for permission before proposing.

It’s bad enough that – even if you have the Worst Dad Ever, who ran off when you were a baby and never paid child support – you still can’t put your mother’s name on your marriage certificate, but asking a father’s permission smacks of that proprietorial phenomenon I always think of as “creepy, possessive dad”.

You know creepy, possessive dad. He puts “Daddy’s little girl” slogan T-shirts on his toddler (or worse, the babygrows that read: “Daddy says I’m not allowed to date, ever”). Later, when she’s a teenager, he threatens her various boyfriends with physical violence if they go so far as to “hurt my little princess”. Basically, he’s Donald Trump, sitting on a chatshow couch and declaring that “if Ivanka weren’t my daughter, perhaps I’d be dating her” – as though that were a okay thing for anyone to say about their genetic offspring.

As far as I’m concerned, a father should keep his distance from his daughter’s romantic relationships unless her physical or emotional welfare is seriously at stake. Polite disinterest is the order of the day. It also means not behaving as though you are the proverbial gatekeeper to her vagina and, when it comes to marriage, performing the role of all-powerful overlord of her future happiness.

I don’t know if it’s because the relationship I have with my dad is more chummy than most father-daughter relationships (he’s more of a smoking buddy than a patriarch), but the idea of a man asking my feminist dad for my hand in marriage makes me want to lie down on the floor. I also doubt my father would react well. If anything, it would be a warning sign. I imagine he would be tempted to withdraw permission on the very basis of the guy asking. Except he wouldn’t be able to, because he doesn’t own me.

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2015/dec/26/the-question-not-to-pop-this-christmas-can-i-marry-your-daughter

I once knew a guy that was upset that his daughter's fiance didn't ask him first before proposing. He said it didnt have to do with giving a yes or a no, but was about a "show of respect." This guy was seemed to be a bit religious conservative. But I always thought this tradition was pretty old fashioned and has begun to slip by the wayside. I don't know if any of my male friends asked the father for anything before they got married. But perhaps some fathers still expect it?

If you have a daughter, do you expect it? Would you feel miffed or disrespected if your daughter's fiance didn't talk to you first?

[CrispyQ]

1. It smacks of women as property.

I couldn't marry a man who thought he needed to ask my father for his permission. It would show me that the man doesn't know the real me. I also hate the traditional question at the wedding ceremony, "Who gives this woman away?" Why is there never a question about giving the groom away?

[PeaceNikki]

6. Fathers should raise their daughters to provide for and protect themselves.

Grown women who are confident and independent are looking for partners in life, not someone to provide and protect.

[PeaceNikki]

9. Enjoy your stay.

You sexist pig.

[PeaceNikki]

13. You're right. Yours was an emotional bullshit response.

[PeaceNikki]

19. I don't need your fucking "help", asshole.

[Scuba]

25. BAM!!!

[PeaceNikki]

28. That was a fucking sexist troll.

There was one vote to let his sexist rant stand. I didn't get the results because I want the first alerter. I wonder if they left the standard bullshit, "it's merely a difference of opinion" comment.

[Scuba]

30. I was called for the jury, but the user had been removed by the time I got to the post. But ...

... he's back so I got to alert! Woo Hoo!

[pintobean]

42. Results

Women aren't truly capable of providing and protecting themselves
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7475714

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Sexist post, which doesn't belong on DU.

JURY RESULTS

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sat Dec 26, 2015, 11:25 AM, and the Jury voted 6-1 to HIDE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Oversharing. Conservative and sexist opinion that runs against the grain of DU's progressive goals. Unidas is a strange selection of a name for a conservative male, btw.
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Mr. Perpetually Single is on the wrong site.
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Get a brain moran.
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: The poster needs to stop stooping over and pick his knuckles up off the ground.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I vote to leave the post alone because it's SO ridiculous and laughable that we DUers will have a ball tearing it up like a pack of puppies with a birthday cake.

[PeaceNikki]

45. I don't understand why people think it's cute or fun to read horrifically sexist opinions here.

Go hang out on the comments section of your local newspaper if that's what you want to do.

Thanks.

[pintobean]

47. Yeah, I thought that was dumb.

But at least it wasn't the free speech bullshit.

I was #3

[PeaceNikki]

48. Agreed. I am glad to see that it wasn't what I thought it would be.

[PeaceNikki]

32. You just got banned. Find a hobby.

[Aristus]

36. ...

[Nay]

72. Now that's a cool troll!!

[Aristus]

76. It's the Fremont Troll, under the Aurora Bridge in Seattle.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fremont_Troll

[Liberal_in_LA]

99. good one!

[PersonNumber503602]

35. I'm thinking his intent was to hit certain points that he knew would get people going.

I feel kinda dumb for being reeled into a reply.

[edhopper]

49. Jury results

I don't need your fucking "help", asshole.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7475747

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Direct attack on another poster.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sat Dec 26, 2015, 11:41 AM, and the Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: She is replying to "message auto-removed." Must have been an asshole.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: in response to a troll who has been banned. I hope the other jurors see this is the case. Leave it.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Disregard. Nikki states she needs no assistance with fucking.
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Well, yeah, I don't even need to see the context on this one.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Give me a break. The "other poster" is a now banned troll. Vote to leave.

Jury #5 did need to see the context after all.

[PeaceNikki]

51. lol

Thanks.

[pintobean]

54. You should use the alert feature on that Auto Message

and ask admin to take a look at the alerter.

[pintobean]

23. Single guy, are you?

[pintobean]

39. Factual content

[pintobean]

14. You'll be gone in minutes.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

21. Women have a bad name because of Nikki? I'm guessing you don't go out on a lot of second dates.

[redwitch]

12. :-)

Indeed.

[TexasProgresive]

50. I clicked on "name removed"

In the profile says a member since 2003. Is that a default thing, was this a long time DUer or did some troll hack someone's password?

[PeaceNikki]

53. I'm not sure. He only had 5 or so posts when he was banned the first time.

I didn't notice his registration date.

[TexasProgresive]

60. I think it must be a default to 2003 before July 6

I did a search of name removed and clicked on one back in November with the same results. It makes me feel better that it wasn't a long time DUer. I miss the old regulars that no longer post.

[PeaceNikki]

61. Yup, here's the profile

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=328843

[pintobean]

63. Yes, that's the default thing

All name removeds have that profile. Here's this particular troll:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=328843

The system kicked him into flagged for review status. MIRT will empty the trash whenever they get around to it.

[TexasProgresive]

65. Thanks for the info n/t

[Blue_Adept]

52. Jury Results

On Sat Dec 26, 2015, 10:25 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

Enjoy your stay.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7475726

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Direct attack on another poster.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sat Dec 26, 2015, 10:33 AM, and the Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Other poster was removed as a troll. Free pass given, with pleasure.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[PeaceNikki]

55. Lol, someone doesn't like me.

[PersonNumber503602]

57. Can new users alert? Didn't he come back (or at least friend) in this same thread?

[PeaceNikki]

59. I'm not sure if you can alert right away, but he did reregister immediately, even admitted so

[Hekate]

120. What I want to know is who the hell are these "DUers" who alert on a woman defending herself ....

....from a TROLL? Some one who got the ban hammer for being a repeat disruptor, at that.

This is just weird.

[MADem]

124. Socks of the troll, maybe?

I'm just going off the replies and the alerts as the original posts that were hidden are now scrubbed, and those looked like easy hides to me.

[Tipperary]

10. Whoa. Enjoy your stay.

Funny to learn Neanderthals still lurk amongst us.

[KG]

15. I lulz'ed

enjoy your short say.

[steve2470]

20. rw troll, see ya

poof you go

[TDale313]

22. Wow. Welcome to ignore.

I feel truly sorry for any women unfortunate enough to be in your life.

[MattBaggins]

24. You are sexist

DU is not the place for you

[PeaceNikki]

34. Pick up a mirror.

[steve2470]

37. you're back ? You need to be IP-banned nt

[CrispyQ]

44. I go out to shovel snow & I miss all the fun.

Thanks for stepping up to the plate & knocking the troll down.

[PeaceNikki]

46. Stick around, I think he'll be back.

[PeaceNikki]

68. As predicted... He just got his third zap in this thread.

Lol

[xmas74]

142. I've been to a few religious weddings where

they first asked who gave the woman and both parents were expected to stand, then asked the same about the man where both parents were expected to stand.

I don't see it often but I have witnessed it a couple of times.

[whathehell]

3. Definitely old.fashioned and sexist...Stems from concept of women as property. n/t

[liberal N proud]

5. I was surprised when my daughters husband asked

He arranged a time be alone with us

[JonathanRackham]

7. They can ask my wife.

If the guys a jerk, we mutually agreed to help hide the body.

We also discussed with my son his choices of dating and marriage. In short we try to be good friends to our children and try to help them make objective decisions.

[tavernier]

16. It's a nice tradition, IMO.

It includes the father into the celebration, and by extension, the rest of the family. Some people like traditions, others prefer to go their own way. I don't believe that it means that the father is either creepy or possessive, but on the other hand, I don't think it guarantees a successful marriage.

[PersonNumber503602]

18. I couldn't ever imagine asking for a dad's permission.

And if I had a daughter, I'd find it awkward if some guy asked me for permission to marry my imaginary daughter.

Other than the backward women are property thing, it seems like a great way to make things really awkward. First, what if the father says no? Are you really not going to marry his daughter? What if he says sure thing, and then his daughter turns you down or you change your mind in between. Awkward. Keep that stuff between the two people who making their own decisions in life.


One more thing, I don't see silly "daddy's little girl" and "daddy says I can't date" baby shirts as being comparable to a father threatening or acting out physical violence against a teenage boyfriend. Perhaps it's an indication of a world view that might lead to that, but chances are better it's just a silly shirt.

[KentuckyWoman]

26. Totally depends on the family

When my husband and I decided to get married we went by ourselves and talked to each other's parents. Not to ask for permission but to make nice, get advice yada yada. My mother in law and I never got along. In fact she hated my guts.

BUT

Since I "showed respect" to the parents who raised my husband by seeking advice before we announced to the world our engagement I had my father in law in my corner. He always gave me the benefit of the doubt when my way and there way was different. He'd step in on occasion and tell Mom in law to mind her beeswax. Also made for an easier time with our respective parents working with each other on holidays etc.

My parents liked my husband but weren't real crazy about me getting married at that point in life. Him going over there to have a chat won them over. It was not about permission but simple communication and clearing the air.

We'll be 45 years married soon. And though we've had our moments we still hold hands and smooch in public.

So something to be said for what we chose to do.

[Hekate]

121. I like what you did. Communication and inclusion go a long way...

...and you've definitely gone a long way at 45 years.

[rjsquirrel]

131. What a wise conment

Among my concepts of feminism, "one size fits all" is rarely to be found.

Marriage still involves alliances between families, not just individuals. Families have different cultural traditions. Harmony is not always achieved easily. Attitudes of older generations can be hard to change and deserve some respect too. Peace and generosity become paramount values.

As a dad of a daughter I can't imagine the scenario being discussed here anyway in the modern American mainstream world. By the time one is proposing marriage, in a healthy family it's very likely the partner has met the parents and become a member of the family (in both directions) already, at least for young couples in my experience.

It's damn due diligence too. Who the hell would propose to marry someone in a realistic way before developing a relationship with their partner's family? I can imagine situations, but they're non-typical. The biggest flaw in premise here is the image of "proposing" as something that comes out of the blue and from one side. Successful marriages begin with discussions of the desires of both partners. Heck don't most young couples now cohabit for a long time in advance of marriage?

ETA: Also it's her mama bear you're gonna have to convince lol. Dad is easy.

[randr]

31. As a father of two exceptional daughters I do not expect to be asked for my permission

as I acknowledge my daughter's choices in matters of their hearts.
As a husband of a loving wife I expected of myself the wisdom and nerve to inform her father of my desires.

[Renew Deal]

40. We had a pretty good discussion about this a few years ago.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x381038

[GummyBearz]

41. When I proposed I wanted to ask her dad

I ran it by her, she said her dad would just laugh and tell me I should be asking her first. I was raised by older parents (they were 40s when I was born), so maybe they passed on some of their old fashioned ways to me. I thought I was being "proper" my wife's family is much younger and apparently thought I was being silly. So I did not ask her dad.

My sister's husband asked both my dad and me (older brother). I thought it was cute, and I bonded with the guy more over that lunch than I had in the previous 6 years. So there is that.

[saltpoint]

43. There's a healthy impulse

many young people have to make their own calls on when or if to marry.

It ought to be the decision of the two people involved. Bring friends and family in a bit later.

[PersonNumber503602]

56. One situation where I can see a discussion with the father

is if the guy is already close and they view each other as friends. Then I could see there being something along the lines of "Dude, I think I want to get married. Think she'll be down? Think it's a good idea at this point in our lives?" Well, maybe not those exact words, but like that sort of discussion of it. But that's less like asking the father, and more like asking your friend who happens to be her father.

[saltpoint]

58. Agree, yes. When those sort of

close relationships are in place, no reason not to rely on them for insight and counsel.

[Ex Lurker]

73. This is a big deal in neofundy circles

among normal people, "permission" shouldn't be a thing, but it's wise to have family on board, if possible. A relationship where the inlaws don't like you is starting out on shaky ground.

[saltpoint]

66. Disagree. Marriages generally are

difficult arrangements at times.

Many fail.

[SheilaT]

67. What's even worse is the tradition of dad "giving away" his daughter.

Or, if dad isn't available, another male relative doing the deed.

That's an even worse example of women as property, and I'm appalled every time I see it.

When I got married no one gave me away, because I was already an independent, self-supporting, self-sufficient woman. My marriage was rooted in the notion of two equals coming together, not in going from being the property of one man to the property of another.

[exboyfil]

78. My FIL did that in my wedding

My daughter will be married in the same church. I have been meaning to ask her about it. I will do it if she wishes, but I would prefer not to. I am not giving her to anyone. She is her own person, and she can make her own decisions. I cannot give what I do not own. My job is almost complete since she will be graduating in college in May. It will be completely her life from then on. She still asks me for permission about things, and I tell her she has her own bank account - it is her decision.

[treestar]

83. I had a cousin who walked herself down the aisle

on her own, though her mother was there.

[Warren DeMontague]

91. Some women want someone to walk them down the aisle because it works better for them that way

I dont really give a shit how people decide to structure their wedding ceremonies, if thats what they want to do.

[SheilaT]

97. Works better in what way?

The symbolic transfer of ownership from one man to another strikes me as very creepy.

Think of it this way: can you imagine a same sex marriage in which either person is "given away"?

[Warren DeMontague]

112. During our wedding, my wife's parents got lost on the way to walk her down the aisle.

So she said she felt stupid standing up there by herself with everyone looking at her, for the several minutes it took her kind of befuddled folks to figure out which path to take.

This is an independent, accomplished, professional woman, who doesn't take any shit from anyone, least of all me. She most positively did not "need" to have her "ownership transferred".

But she was wearing a big fuckin' dress- which she picked out, by the way, no one forced her into that thing either- that was sort of hard to navigate with, and it was helpful to her, for her to have people walking with her, plus then she didn't have to feel like she was standing up on stage in a blinking neon sign all by herself.

But what the fuck? If someone wants to get married doing X, Y, or Z, who gives a shit? Some people want to have their wedding officiant be a guy in a wookie costume. Rrrrrawwarrrr rarrr rarrr! Who fucking cares? it's their business.

Also, my specific comment was about walking down the aisle, not "giving away". I don't see why one or both partners in a same sex wedding might not like to have a parent walk them down the aisle too.

[SheilaT]

116. Hmmm, independent confident woman

who can't quite figure out how to walk down an aisle, and has selected a dress that she can't quite navigate in?

You are right, it really only matters to those involved, but I do think it's a bit primitive for a woman to be given away by anyone.

[Warren DeMontague]

119. Oh ffs.

Yes, it happens, particularly when one is talking about an outfit worn a grand total of one whole time in a lifetime.

Not to mention the fact that some people might want their parents up there, given, oh, I don't know, some sort of sentimental emotional attachment they might have for those particular carbon-based life forms. Hell, I think my mom walked me down, too, come to think of it. She walked me somewhere. And, she has bad knees; so go ahead and add Elder Abuse to the list of nightmarish micro-oppressions.

I don't know, I'll have to watch the video. Which is something else people do for their weddings, even if they never watch the thing again.

No, you've got me figured out, the lil' wifey is just a shrinking violet, why she's ironing my sleeveless, grease-stained shirt as we speak. "STELLAAAAAAAA!"

And me, I love archaic traditions just because. The older, the sillier, the more senseless the better. Fie and Fiddlesticks, You've got my number, indeed!

[pintobean]

125. Wow, you're really being a jerk

and you're sitting in judgement over a woman you know nothing about, simply because she made a choice that you disagree with.

Warren has shown a lot of patience and restraint here.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

115. Who says they aren't?

I attended a lesbian same sex wedding where both women were escorted down the aisle, one by their father and mother and the other by her father and brother.

[tazkcmo]

128. I agree.

We got married at the court house when our son was 3 months old. Before that, the only mom I had a conversation with before I asked my then pregnant girl friend was with mine and that was just to find out her feelings on the matter, not really advice though, just how she felt about the idea. I wasn't going to marry soley based on the pregnancy nor was I going to sign any papers swearing to support her and the child as I was fully committed to that anyway, marriage or not. Our "wedding" was as non-traditional as you can get and focused on the feelings and wishes of the principle parties, me and her. We announced our marriage on Christmas, a full week after our "wedding" when her mother was pissed at me for not spending enough money on Christmas presents for her daughter. lol

My MIL ended respecting and loving me even when we disagreed because of my actions and devotion to her daughter and our children. I even got custody after we divorced 13 years later because she got "tired of being a mom and a wife". MIL sure gave her daughter hell then! My ex has been married 3 times since and I'll never do it again.

[xmas74]

143. I'm not a fan of that one either.

If both mom and dad walk down the aisle as a show of love and support instead of "giving their daughter away" then it's not so bad.

My biggest one is the vows where they expect the woman to "obey". I'm not your damn puppy and he doesn't get to swat my nose with a rolled up newspaper if I displease him. I dated a guy once who said he could never marry in my church after we attended a wedding together. Why? Because we don't add "obey" into the vows. (Methodist, if you wonder.) We didn't last all that long.

[treestar]

69. It's become a new recent tradition

Even in the 50s it was not part of the tradition anymore.

I think it may be aimed at the parents rather than just the father and is a way of getting the family involved - they usually know the answer is yes, of course, they are just pretending to involve the parents. Though only the bride's parents then that is sexist.

At weddings I have been at more recently, the priest or whoever will tell the families they are part of it - they help support the couple. That doesn't really seem like a bad thing as long as both are treated equally.

The whole proposal thing is old fashioned. For the most part, who would propose who does not really know the answer is yes for sure - it's more of a ceremony.

[HockeyMom]

70. Different Cultures maybe?

My husband (German heritage) didn't ask my Dad 41 years ago. Our SIL (Italian/Greek) asked BOTH of us for OUR permission to marry our daughter. I thought it was very sweet, and a show of respect for not only the father, but also for the mother.

[SwissTony]

123. My daughters grew up and still live in The Netherlands.

I've never heard of the custom here. One of my daughters got married but I didn't "give" her away. It was a subject that just didn't arise.

I didn't ask my FIL for "permission" to marry my Dutch wife.

[meaculpa2011]

71. I asked my future father in law for advice...

and his blessing. We were only 20 at the time and my wife's mother had died a few years earlier. She was an only child and her father was 65 at the time. It was a difficult time for him since it was only the two of them. That was 44 years ago.

Anyone contemplating marriage should accept the fact you're marrying into the whole family. It's almost always a formality, but in many families it's taken very seriously. My wife had to pass muster with the "Supreme Court." In my family that was the Council of Sicilian Widows. I warned her, but she thought I was kidding. It was the first time I brought her to a holiday gathering (in my aunt's basement in Brooklyn) and there at the far wall they were all dressed in black with their arms folded. My grandmother asked if she was Sicilian. I said no. Then she asked what part of Italy her family came from. I said the Irish part of Italy.

Where they came from the people from the next town were considered foreigners, but she won them over very quickly.

My father in law, on the other hand, never really warmed up to me until our first child was born 20 years later.

My daughter is 22 now. If her prospective husband should come to me and have "The Talk" I'll accept it in the spirit it is given. If she decides to run off and elope, I have enough confidence in her judgement that she'll be fine as well. The big question is: How will I react if she should want to marry someone I know will not treat her well. I don't think she would, but when she was younger she dated one or two young gentleman who would not have been on my short list.

I think that's a much larger question than whether you should be insulted over a social convention.

[Enrique]

102. i misread your title as you asked your father in law for a divorce

that would be an interesting tradition.

[hueymahl]

105. Great answer

I agree 100% - it is a sign of respect. Nothing more, and certainly nothing insidious.

[tularetom]

74. My son in law didn't ask, I told him he was going to marry my daughter

She was 18 and there was this little matter of a fetus involved.

I don't know whether my son asked or not, he was 30 years old when he got married and they'd already been together for five years.

[exboyfil]

75. A father's perspective

My daughter's fiance asked me. I said it was entirely up to her, but that I thought he was a good man and would make a good husband. Per his request I told no one including my wife or daughter that he had asked me. At some point marriage does appear the logical next step in relationships so it came as no surprise when he popped the question this summer. My daughter has a ring and they are setting a date. They will both be graduating in Mechanical Engineering this May. My daughter will be finishing her B.S. as a magna cum laude two years after graduating high school.

I am somewhat troubled by my daughter's willingness to subsume her career to her fiance's. She already received a job offer from the company she interned with for two summers. She has the chance to be at my pay level in the company within five years if she commits to them, but she is already planning to make do with whatever will be in the area of her finance's job. She will be graduating without debt while her finance will have a sizable student loan. I thought it would be prudent for her to consider separate finances, but she did not want to hear it. Now the young man in question is more traditional than I would care for, but he is a hard worker and he is getting a very good degree from a good college. My daughter seems very much in love with him (he is the first person she has ever dated).

I asked my wife's father as well when I got engaged to my spouse. It is something that my wife wished for me. I do have to wonder what I would have done if he had said no. I was a degreed engineer, but I come from something of rough background (illegitimate birth, alcoholic parents, lots of divorces in my family). I know my FIL and MIL had their concerns, but we have been married for 28 years now.

[Hekate]

122. Hmmm. About that career... and only because it reminds me of my younger sis....

She and her first husband graduated from UCBerkeley as computer engineers in the early 1970s.

Your daughter is going into Mechanical Engineering with the offer of a good job immediately upon graduation, and women are still a rare commodity in those fields. You must be incredibly proud of her.

I know my opinion means diddly squat, but if she were my daughter I would urge her to take this job. Oh yeah, separate finances at least until the student debt is paid -- but young people don't think like that, so I'd just concentrate on please, please taking the job offer for at least a couple of years to build her adult resume and then if hubby still is dissatisfied with prospects in that region she and he can move on. It may not be as easy as she thinks for her as a woman to replicate that first big chance.

Eh, but young love is what it is, and this old lady wishes the young couple luck and love.

[Egnever]

80. Expect is a loaded word

I doubt many today expect it

Having said that it is certainly a good way to show respect and get a father to be on board.

Family plays a big part in any relationship and can cause major problems if you don't get along.

I would say a smart groom would do it just to feel out future issues they may have to deal with.

Marriage is tough and there are a lot of variables that come in to play after the honeymoon ends. Anything you can do ahead of time to mitigate those potential issues is going to help you down the road.

I Don't expect my daughters future husband to ask me for my permission but she is the biggest joy in my life and you can be damn sure I will always be vigilant in trying to ensure her happiness.

If my daughters future husband makes her happy that will be enough but if he came to me ahead of time with his intentions I guarantee it will raise my opinion of him. Silly but a show of respect like that is hard to ignore and certain to put a Fathers mind at ease.

Do it don't I don't really care but I do recognize how it can smooth the sailing going forward.

[cherokeeprogressive]

81. I asked for my future Father-in-law's BLESSING, not for his daughter.

We still would have married even without it. I respected him but it wasn't about permission or giving his daughter to me.

[handmade34]

82. I am a Mother

I just got a call from my youngest daughter's 'boyfriend'... he called to ask if he would be accepted into the family, or some such question as that... it was a very nice call

[mikehiggins]

84. I was overjoyed my daughter told me who she was marrying.

I wouldn't dare presume to have anything to say about it, unless the guy was a total nightmare. Ask my permission? None of my business.

I didn't even know she'd named her son after me until she handed me the boy and mentioned who he was named for.

Our kids are not our possessions. They are our responsibilities and we have to let them go when they decide they are ready.

[panader0]

85. I don't see it as asking permission, I see it as asking for your blessing.

My future son-in-law called me (from Alaska) before he proposed. I was pleased by his respect, and thrilled to have
him for a son-in law. It is kind of "old school", but then, so am I. The wedding is in May.

[Baitball Blogger]

88. Gorgeous bride.

[LWolf]

86. I have no idea.

My father didn't raise me, and I didn't ask anyone's permission when I decided to get married. It never would have occurred to me that I needed anyone's permission, or that the man I married needed anyone's "permission" but my own.

Neither of my sons asked for permission, either. Happily, my daughters-in-law are strong, independent women who don't ask their daddies for permission to do anything.

I guess in sub-cultures that still treat women like property, it could still be expected.

[malaise]

87. My father laughed at two guys who showed up on different occasions

and asked him if they could marry me without even discussing it with me.
He told both that they should look for someone else since I would be very angry at what they had done. I had a few dates with one of them and made it clear from day one that I was not interested in a serious relationship since I was heading for university. I didn't even know the other moron.

My brother and I crack up over those two moments. He was with dad for the first one and gave me a verbatin report with much laughter.

Women are not property.

[Hekate]

106. Good Dad!

[malaise]

117. That he was

Happy Holidays

[Hekate]

118. Happy holidays to you, too, and a great New Year.

[Warren DeMontague]

89. Short answer? No, no more than I would expect the guy to show up with 3 goats.

Seems anachronistic, to say the least.

[U4ikLefty]

90. I'll ask permission only if I am to receive a substantial dowry. nt

[Generic Brad]

92. Absolutely not

She does not require my approval to make a life decision. And her suitor should be way more concerned with her answer than mine. My take on this is that a guy who seeks permission from a woman's dad first does not respect his potential bride at all.

My daughter is her own person, not a possession.

[linuxman]

93. I asked, and my wife wanted me to.

He said no, and at the time, he was right to.

I tried again later with better success.

There is nothing wrong with seeking the opinion of a man who loves your future wife and wants to ensure a happy and successful marriage for you both. We chose to respect that opinion until our circumstances were more favorable, and we think we are all the better for it.

But apparently I don't respect my wife and think she is property. At least to some here.

[Wounded Bear]

94. I don't recall that my son-in-law ever asked...

but if he had or did, I'm pretty sure I would have said, "What are you asking me for? Call S*****!"

My daughter made the decision. To be honest, I had my doubts about him, but several years and two grandsons later, they seem to be going strong.

Is it an archaic and sexist practice? Yeah, I guess it is. My sense is that we shed these old customs by changing our own behavior, not by forcing others to. Would I have liked him to ask me? I guess so, but I'm still pretty sure I wouldn't have done much more than thank him for asking, but see above.

I hope it's still OK to give my blessing to the match.

[oberliner]

95. Polite disinterest is the order of the day?

That is idiotic. Parents should take an interest in whom their kids are dating.

[Skittles]

96. along with one man giving away a woman to another man

yes, it is f***ed up sexism

[Reter]

98. What about saying "My wife?"

I always thought that was sexist. No one owns their wife. She's not your property.

[Inkfreak]

100. When I say "my wife", I'm referring to the woman who married me.

Not a woman I own. Likewise when she refers to me as "my husband". Its not sexist, imo.

And I never asked her dad. That shit is old school sexist.

[dflprincess]

103. Seriously?

If I were married I'm sure I would have said "my husband" once in a while.

Just as I've said my mom, my dad, my brother, my niece, my friend, my boss.

If doesn't indicate ownership - it explains your relationship with the person.

[ProfessorGAC]

135. "My Wife" Uses "My Husband" All The Time

For that poster to infer otherwise seems like someone looking for an argument.

[LanternWaste]

134. Do you apply that sentiment consistently, and refrain from saying, "my son..."

Do you apply that sentiment consistently, and refrain from saying, "my son", "my relative", or "my friend" as well to avoid the appearance of ownership?

If not, what is the precise and relevant difference?

[Skittles]

141. I think THE WIFE sounds weird

like she is an object

[lastlib]

101. Yes and yes

(...to the questions in the heading.) Stupid sexist women-as-property "tradition", needs to be shot down and buried in multiple, separate unmarked graves.

If I had a daughter, and some guy comes to me and asks me for "her hand", I'm going to say, "Hell, no, you're not cutting off her hand! If you don't want ALL of her, F*CK OFF!"

[liberal_at_heart]

104. I have a 21 year old daughter who is in a serious relationship with someone and they have talked

about getting married down the road. Speaking as a mother it is not just the fathers who are proud of their little girls and get protective when they are teens. My daughter's first boyfriend was all hands. I hated that guy. Her second boyfriend was a nice guy and I liked him. He lost interest and broke her heart. Now she is with a guy who treats her well and I like him. I don't expect him to ask us for permission to marry her and I don't believe my husband expects that either but the mere asking would not offend me either. I have gotten to know him over time and and have seen them both work on their relationship and learn to work together and compromise.

[ManiacJoe]

107. From observing both sides,

Most fathers like the show of respect.

Most boyfriends these days are not asking for permission but are asking for his blessing; there is an important difference.

[Arugula Latte]

109. If just the father is asked for a blessing, that's still sexist and fucked up.

If both parents are asked, that's a different story.

[davidn3600]

113. But do you ever see the woman asking her boyfriend's family for their blessing?

If it is only asked to the woman's father by the boyfriend, then that could easily be seen as sexist.

[ManiacJoe]

114. I personally know of no women who did the proposing to the man,

so, no, none asked the boyfriends parents. I do have 1-2 male friends whose parents did not approve of his choice of bride.

Yes, the idea of asking the girl's father/parents is sexist.

I do know several brides who made sure there was no "giving away of the bride" at the wedding ceremony.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

110. I don't know how much of a tradition it currently is

but I never asked my father-in-law and I don't expect anybody to ask me "permission" for my daughter if and when she plans to get married. Very anachronistic and sexist IMHO.

[LostOne4Ever]

111. Sexist tradition that needs to die nt.

[tazkcmo]

126. I didn't ask anyone but the woman I loved.

I had two sons. Only one married and her father was not asked. This is still a thing?

[bigwillq]

127. I think it's sweet and respectful

If the groom wants to ask FIL, he should; I don't see anything wrong with it.
If groom doesn't , no biggie; I don't see anything wrong with that either.

If someone proposed to me, I would want them to ask for my Dad's blessing. I just think it's a show of respect.

[Arugula Latte]

145. Why just your father and not your mother, though?

[Orrex]

129. I asked my then-future wife's mother, out of respect

Since I was, in reality, asking to join the family, and since her family was (and is) important to my then-future wife, it seemed only respectful to do so. If her family didn't like and accept me, it would have created tension between them, and why would I want to do that?

[Squinch]

130. Should a woman ask her boyfriend's mother for permission for the son to marry?

That would be pretty silly. As is a man asking a woman's father for permission for the daughter to marry.

Though as people have said, asking for blessing for the couple is nice. But shouldn't really carry any weight in the decision.

[ileus]

132. I've never known anyone to "ask" a father for permission to marry their daughter in the USA.

I believe that goes back to when girls would get married at 14. At 14-17 in those days, maybe father did know best.



Is this something in modern times I should be poutraged over? Is this really an issue?

[Squinch]

133. Do you see poutrage here? I don't. I see people having a conversation.

If you don't think it is an issue, I don't think you should feel forced to engage in that conversation.

[xmas74]

144. Depends on where you live and religious views.

I knew more than a few girls from high school whose boyfriends spoke with their father. They asked him for her hand before even running it by her. Hell, I heard a coworker talk about it a couple of months ago. Her daughter's boyfriend made a lunch date with the father to speak with him privately. During lunch he asked for her hand and the father consented. She said if he hadn't asked then they wouldn't have given consent and would not have paid for the wedding. (No, I'm not joking and he proposed on Christmas Eve, outside while standing at the front steps of their church.)

[Glassunion]

136. I asked, but not for permission.

Before we were engaged, I had, a great relationship with my future in-laws (I still do). They were divorced, so it was two conversations that I decided to have with each of them. I never once asked permission, but we had a discussion about my intent to ask her. On its most basic levels, it was more of a conversation of me asking advice and talking about life choices. They were great conversations, and I'd do it all over again.

[vaberella]

137. In my family it's done. But not necessarily father, but the person who raised you.

So for instance, my cousin was raised by my mother. So when she was getting married, her fiance asked my mother for her hand in marriage. Her father is alive, but he didn't raise her, so my cousin went to my mum. The concept at it's base is the same, asking permission to be married or given approval on a mate by a parent. In our case it's a default to the person who raised you not based on gender.

[haele]

138. I'd like the proposer to be friendly with the parents

Or at least make an attempt to make acquaintance with them, unless the proposee is totally emancipated from the parents.

A good percentage of the attitudes - and dysfunctional tendencies - of the parents tend to be reflected in the children. Not always - but someone who grew up a child of a toxic parent or in a chaotic family structure might have a lot of triggers and boundary issues that someone who grew up the child of casual, accepting parents or in a stable, structured family might.

The sweeping emotions of Romantic Love may work to blind one to the other individual's faults, but the faults (or strengths) of the family the individual comes from is typically obvious, no matter how infatuated one may be. If one person has a cultural conflict with or otherwise can't stand the other person's family that comes with them, that can become an issue after the ring is on the finger and the courtship ends.

Family is part of the baggage that gets unpacked after the Honeymoon. It's important to figure out if it's light or heavy baggage before it gets packed in, or family can quickly become a huge interference in the maturing of couple's relationship.

Haele

[theboss]

139. I asked for a blessing, not approval

If he had said "no," we still would have gotten married. But there was no chance of that.

It's really just a show of respect to the one man who may love your wife more than you do.

[LaDuquesaDeKingston]

140. Funnily enough...

Despite being a feminist, I love this tradition! It's a great way to start joining the family. If I ever have a boyfriend and he wanted to get married I would hope that he would ask my parents for their blessing. Asking before officially proposing to me would also be preferable, it just seems romantic. Societal brainwashing...what can I say? LOL

[Arugula Latte]

146. I think asking both parents for a blessing is one thing, but asking just the father for "permission"

is sexist and weird and implies the daughter is chattel to be bargained over.

[LaDuquesaDeKingston]

147. I agree that it's sexist

The whole thing is definitely sexist, I guess this is just one time where I'm not personally offended. What I usually protest about is women taking their husband's last names.