General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsCan you imagine? ..If a band of armed Muslims seized a Federal Bldg. to protect "one of their own"?
..OR .. a bunch of armed-to-the-teeth African Americans doing this to insist that Black Lives Matter, after these recent string of aquitals and 'cases dismissed' re: cops shooting unarmed Blacks for no reason.
We'd be seeing NOTHING ... absolutely nothing else on the TV 24/7 wall-to-wall, and there would
be 1000s of FBI & Federal Troops dispatched to the scene ... and they'd all be dead within a few hours.
but hey, it's "only" White Supremacists 'doing their thing' .. la-la-la .. barely makes a brief mention on
local (I live in Oregon) and national news.
Un-fucking-believeable.
ON EDIT: Just to be clear, my OP was not so much 'demanding swift military action' as it was
more to point-out how deeply engrained our society's racism is, and how that effects
a) the nature and extent of news coverage the event, and
b) the use of state-sponsored violence (or not) to deal with these kinds of events.
I'm not necessarily advocating an escalation of the violence by authorities; but can't
help notice how very very differently this would be playing out if these guys were not
white.
Binkie The Clown
(7,911 posts)99th_Monkey
(19,326 posts)still_one
(92,115 posts)99th_Monkey
(19,326 posts)still_one
(92,115 posts)Last edited Sun Jan 3, 2016, 03:56 AM - Edit history (1)
This instance has just started and it it is far from over.
I understand your point, but they have occupied a federal building, and I cannot see anyway the government can allow this to stand.
Orrex
(63,189 posts)How long has it been since we've seen a forcible suppression of black protesters? Or pro-worker protesters?
You're right, it's far from over, but the starting game is playing out very differently.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)99th_Monkey
(19,326 posts)nxylas
(6,440 posts)Technically the wrong part of the country, but still funny.
NobodyHere
(2,810 posts)NutmegYankee
(16,199 posts)uponit7771
(90,329 posts)NutmegYankee
(16,199 posts)uponit7771
(90,329 posts)NutmegYankee
(16,199 posts)Seems like a good concept to follow.
rusty quoin
(6,133 posts)Do they still show that one picture still? I never watch them. It's like watching professional wrestling without much movement.
Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)SunSeeker
(51,546 posts)But eventually they will retake the property. Every one of those "militia" idiots still there will be arrested. They should all be brought up on domestic terrorism charges.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)RKP5637
(67,101 posts)SunSeeker
(51,546 posts)Dawson Leery
(19,348 posts)Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)hollowdweller
(4,229 posts)You had guys drawing down with scoped rifles on BLM people yet those guys were allowed to walk and keep their right to own a gun??
But some guy who gets a felony charge for growing some pot plants loses his and can't go deer hunting?
Something is fucked up there. No wonder they tried it again.
Response to 99th_Monkey (Original post)
cui bono This message was self-deleted by its author.
captainarizona
(363 posts)also philadelphia and rizzo. how many duer's want to negotiate this and how many don't?
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Um, okay, what was the reference to "Philadelphia and Rizzo"?
EX500rider
(10,833 posts)jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Wilson Goode was Philadelphia's first African American mayor, and who approved bombing the bunker constructed on the roof.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)individuals or groups you dislike is repugnant. As much as is possible, this situation should be resolved peacefully and the perpetrators should be prosecuted.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)I am suggesting that a situation such as this, where no one is in danger of injury or death does not require an immediate violent response. In fact, I am suggesting that deescalation is always the best response in a situation like this one.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)2nd Amendment rights. But that is a separate issue from how law enforcement should deal with the current situation.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)When we can just be patient and wait for them to surrender?
Nice.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)It's that you believe that if it were Muslims or black people that there would be such a response, so you want to send the troops in now, risking their lives, to make some kind of point about no preferential treatment.
Got it.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)I don't want the Feds to do the wrong thing here just because you are convinced that they would do the wrong thing with other guys. Mostly because I don't want people dying unnecessarily.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)jack_krass
(1,009 posts)I know it makes you feel cool to say they would, but the wouldnt.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)jack_krass
(1,009 posts)I was disagreeing with the statement that if these yahoo's weren't white the feds would have attacked them immediately
2naSalit
(86,502 posts)Want to lose the election? That would do it.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)2naSalit
(86,502 posts)I don't think it would be a helpful element and I am sure that the opposition will make as much of a talking point of this as possible since these are just good ol' white boys with gunz.
Waiting for LaPierre to come out spewing in 3... 2... 1.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)99th_Monkey
(19,326 posts)to point-out how deeply engrained our society's racism is, and how that effects a) the
news coverage of events, and b) the use of state-sponsored violence to deal with these
kinds of events.
I'm not necessarily advocating an escalation of the violence by authorities; but can't
help notice how very very differently this would be playing out if these guys were not
white.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)99th_Monkey
(19,326 posts)Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)99th_Monkey
(19,326 posts)Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)So under the Equal Protection Clause, YES. I would like to see the FBI afford these guys the SAME treatment.
Get my drift?
99th_Monkey
(19,326 posts)Last edited Mon Jan 4, 2016, 04:26 AM - Edit history (1)
Yes, we would both like to wake up tomorrow, to discover that ISIS has "come to their senses" and
disarmed unilaterally, and that the NSA has declared "hey, we actually don't need to be doing all this
pointless surveillance, and that the CIA has dispatched a press release saying "Gee, you know, JFK
was right. We should completely destroy this institution because it's only increasing the misery, poverty
and carnage on the planet", .. and so on.
Yes, we'd both "like to see" all these thing magically happen. On this we can agree.
But we don't live in that world, though i sincerely wish with all my heart that we did. The best we
can hope for is a world where at least we call things what they really are; and if we call people of
color weilding weaponry and defying authority, "willing to kill and to die" doing so .. if we call them
Terrorists and give them no quarter, then I see absolutely NO reason to give "cookies and hot chocolate"
to white supremacists who are doing the exact same thing. To differentiate like that is called "institutional
racism" and I have no tolerance for it whatsoever.
I abhor violence. I really do. But I also abhor duplicity, double standards and institutional racism that
encourages white supremacists to strut around wielding weapons and insisting on their 'sovereignty' to do
whatever the fuck they want on Federal property in clear violation of the law of the land.
Vinca
(50,250 posts)Just a blurb on CNN this morning. They don't even call them terrorists.
NutmegYankee
(16,199 posts)Right now it's civil disobedience. While armed, no one is actually in mortal danger as the building was unoccupied. If these idiots fire on Federal Employees however, it's a whole different arena.
8 U.S.C. § 2331 defines "international terrorism" and "domestic terrorism" for purposes of Chapter 113B of the Code, entitled "Terrorism:
"Domestic terrorism" means activities with the following three characteristics:
Involve acts dangerous to human life that violate federal or state law;
Appear intended (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination. or kidnapping; and
Occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the U.S.
18 U.S.C. § 2332b defines the term "federal crime of terrorism" as an offense that:
Is calculated to influence or affect the conduct of government by intimidation or coercion, or to retaliate against government conduct; and
Is a violation of one of several listed statutes, including § 930(c) (relating to killing or attempted killing during an attack on a federal facility with a dangerous weapon); and § 1114 (relating to killing or attempted killing of officers and employees of the U.S.).
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)These areflat out terrorists by definition and the law.
NutmegYankee
(16,199 posts)The definition states -"Domestic terrorism" means activities with the following three characteristics.
Right now it is trespassing.
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)They are terrorists.
Time to bring in Delta Force. Any resistance must be met with deadly force.
NutmegYankee
(16,199 posts)Trust me, I fucking hate white supremacist militia scum and their range wars bullshit agenda, but they haven't acted with any violence. Until they do, we handle this as a civil matter.
People have occupied federal property before for protests. It is not and was not treated as a terrorist act at those times.
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)They are terrorists. The last time the feds ignored these terorrists' terrorist activity, they were emboldened.
Time to blow them away.
NutmegYankee
(16,199 posts)I'll sit back and watch cooler heads handle this.
uponit7771
(90,329 posts)NutmegYankee
(16,199 posts)It seems it is now anyone who pisses us off.
davekriss
(4,616 posts)You say: "... but they haven't acted with any violence. Until they do, we handle this as a civil matter." Despite our other dialogue, I have to say I agree with this. De-escalation should be used, stupidity should not be met with more stupidity. Our disagreement is in your use of law to counter other arguments for use of force. On the letter of the law, I think you're wrong.
But in this day and age when peaceful protestors throughout the country are met with batons, rubber bullets, tear gas, sound canons, and worse, it strikes a very wrong chord to watch how these potentially violent occupiers are met with silk gloves and polite requests to stand down.
NutmegYankee
(16,199 posts)I honestly believe the heavy use of force on peaceful protests is driven by a lack of fear of consequences. The police damn well knew the people they were hurting couldn't fight back. And racism plays a big part in such events.
In the situation at hand, a similar response is made difficult by snow covered terrain and bitter cold and of course, guys with guns.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)...which is certainly dangerous and designed to influence the government and/or affected civilians.
davekriss
(4,616 posts)Just 1 of the three items in paragraph 2331 need be true for a situation to be declared as terrorism.
Now, I in no way favor that definition precisely because it is intentionally overly broad. Acts of peaceful civil disobedience can be declared to be "terrorism" if the PTB feel the need. But while this horror of judicial language is on the books it would be nice if it was equitably applied.
NutmegYankee
(16,199 posts)(5) the term "domestic terrorism" means activities that -
(A) involve acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State;
(B) appear to be intended - (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and
(C) occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the United States.
Where is the "or" ? The definition requires meeting A, B, and C.
davekriss
(4,616 posts)Any act deemed dangerous that meets any of the 3 criteria in section B can be declared "terrorism".
On edit: Occupying a vacant federal building with firearms displayed certainly meets the definition of section A.
NutmegYankee
(16,199 posts)At this time, they do not meet involve acts dangerous to human life.
They are trespassing.
davekriss
(4,616 posts)That certainly is dangerous to human life.
NutmegYankee
(16,199 posts)Nice try though.
davekriss
(4,616 posts)In section A: "...or any State".
NutmegYankee
(16,199 posts)Trespassing isn't dangerous to human life.
Taking a ridiculous view on this isn't going to help you win the arguement.
One could argue that blocking a freeway is an act dangerous to human life that violates a state law. That act could be intended to intimidate or coerce a civilian population and to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion. It also occurs in the USA. I.E., if one wanted to stretch clause A like you are doing, Black Lives Matter could be called terrorism.
Of course it's not, but neither is breaking into a building and squatting inside.
davekriss
(4,616 posts)It is absurd. Which is why so many of us were highly critical when that language became law. It basically gives the federal government very wide latitude when declaring something to be a terrorist act. And since the government first and foremost answers to the oligarchy, that is a dangerous power in a "democracy".
(The intentionally sloppy use of "or", which entered the bill upon revision, received lots of criticism at the time.)
In your mind, occupying a building while armed to the teeth does not meet the test for a danger to human life. On this, we'll just have to disagree. So, given the nature of the situation out there, some of us would like to see the law equitably applied. Instead, the use of force seems to be dependent on skin color.
NutmegYankee
(16,199 posts)In fact, they were usually resolved very peacefully without arrests in some cases. I would like to see arrests in this case.
The reason I point out that this is not terrorism is because the word loses meaning. These are just a bunch of racist assholes who are conducting a protest similar to OWS. They have the guns for intimidation, but they are unlikely to actually use them.
davekriss
(4,616 posts)davekriss
(4,616 posts)But by the letter of the law it does apply (we disagree here). It is a woefully written law, intentionally so, and is meant to be a selective tool of the PTB. It should be revised. I betcha on that we can agree.
NutmegYankee
(16,199 posts)dembotoz
(16,797 posts)Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts)- They have a record of criminal activity
- They are resisting law enforcement
- They are armed
- They are threatening violence
For the rest of us: These are a bunch of grown up children who feel a sense entitlement to have things that are not theirs to have. Wear them down, take them to jail peacefully.
cali
(114,904 posts)Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)Then they'll try to take over a Rest Stop.
RKP5637
(67,101 posts)Cassiopeia
(2,603 posts)If any group other than white men had done this, it would already be over and that group would have lost.
tabasco
(22,974 posts)It's time for the government to crack down on these criminal creeps like they would anybody else.
Baitball Blogger
(46,697 posts)the events that led to Black Hawk Down. One was the first time we engaged with foreign terrorists, and the other was the first time we engaged with domestic terrorists.
wendylaroux
(2,925 posts)CanonRay
(14,094 posts)the government let them get away with it the first time. They feel emboldened and empowered to do whatever the fuck they want, confident the government won't do a damn thing.
99th_Monkey
(19,326 posts)white supremacists' armed insurrection.
They could at least cut off the electrical power to the building and block any deliveries
of food, water, or other supplies to the Federal Bldg being seized by these assholes.
CanonRay
(14,094 posts)then the governor should call out the National Guard. If it were the Occupy movement, or BLM, the powers that be wouldn't hesitate.
99th_Monkey
(19,326 posts)but not in a good way. The M$M and law enforcement are sending a message -- by their inaction and
deferential treatment of an armed insurrection -- that WHITE guys with guns can do ANY fucking
thing they want to, with little or no repercussion or retribution by the US Government or local police
forces.
Renew Deal
(81,852 posts)99th_Monkey
(19,326 posts)by their inaction and deferential treatment of an armed insurrection -- that RW WHITE guys
with guns can do ANY fucking thing they want to, with little or no repercussion or retribution by the
US Government or local police forces.
I do not like the feel of this at all.
applegrove
(118,582 posts)to do with "the Oregon 150" or "Vanilla ISIS" or "the Wal-martyrs" or whatever we are calling them.
99th_Monkey
(19,326 posts)of this band of armed-to-the-teeth white supremacist assholes.
These are domestic terrorists who have been emboldened by the authorities 'backing down'
the last time they pulled a stunt like this... and it will continue until someone gets killed,
or they are dealt with like anyone else who's armed and threatening violence should be
dealt with. They are in direct & blatant violation of Federal Law:
18 U.S. Code § 2384 - Seditious conspiracy
If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2384
rockfordfile
(8,700 posts)NobodyHere
(2,810 posts)Ok
PatrickforO
(14,569 posts)See my previous post on another thread. They are walking on eggs here.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027493656#post228
I just hope the cops don't escalate because it would be like poking a nation-sized beehive of heavily armed crazies. To use a cliche, lets not and say we did.
99th_Monkey
(19,326 posts)and WHITE supremacists get to have an unlimited supply of "Get Out of Jail Free" cards?
And you call that a fair game, or level playing field? really?
I abhor violence. I really do. But I also abhor duplicity, double standards and institutional racism
that encourages & allows white supremacists to strut around wielding weapons and insisting on their
'sovereignty' to do whatever the fuck they want on Federal property in clear violation of the law of
the land.
18 U.S. Code § 2384 - Seditious conspiracy
If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both.
On edit: I'm NOT 'advocating violence' here, I'm pointing to institutional racism in action LIVE on TV. Deferential treatment to any white asshole who wants to 'make a point' .. that hey, it works. The authorities alway will
simply back down and there are no consequences to armed insurrection for US, and us alone.
PatrickforO
(14,569 posts)However the fact remains that we have a large, maybe up to 20% of the population, group of heavily armed crazies that are basically right wing fanatics with strong racist, xenophobic and homophobic leanings. Couple that with the fact, yes fact, that these people HATE Obama and the government in general because they have been coached by hate-talk radio and Fox 'news' to hate the government instead of the oligarchs who are picking all our pockets.
Do you really want Obama to do 'something' that then escalates and sparks a misguided 'militia' revolution? A REAL modern Tea Party? Because that is what you might have. Go to some of the conservative blogs and see what they are saying.
And, no, my personal preference would be to roll in the tanks and blow these assholes to kingdom come if they even fired one shot. All I'm saying is that I think that approach, in this case, might stir up a pretty big beehive.
Sure I think it sucks, and yes I think it is sedition. But Obama, the feds and the OR government need to be very careful here because they are literally walking on eggs. Besides, if he does nothing but just surround the place like he's doing now, and maybe turn off the power, these people will get tired of being there and surrender far sooner than the huge amount of time Ammon Bundy talked about. Plus you and I know that the government - governments everywhere - have always been MUCH more tolerant of right wing shit like this than they ever have about left wing stuff.
See, because the left gets put down brutally because it generally wants policies that help people, and the oligarchs - our REAL corporate masters - don't even want us to think this way. So, yeah if it were people on the left, people of color, indigenous people, Muslims, you name it, they'd be getting 24/7 media coverage and there would be MASSIVE pressure for the government to act, which it would. As brutally as necessary. As ugly as necessary.
But not these guys. That's just the way it is. Lots of the people in our 'justice' system are sympathetic to these assholes, as well.
So, in this case, the smart thing to do is quietly contain the people.
99th_Monkey
(19,326 posts)I understand that any kind of swift deployment of overwhelming force to roust these armed seditionists from their illegal seizure of Federal property would probably set-off a firestorm of indignation and perhaps more armed rebellion by RW crazies. I get that, and it is an important consideration for sure.
What I don't get is how the M$M and law enforcement are quite literally 'white-washing' this thing, including Oregon's newspaper of record, calling them 'peaceful militants' who are 'in high spirits' .. and giving them free airtime and print space to state their sham 'concerns' about the Hammond situation and the use of Federal lands.
What I don't get is how this is NOT being called what it is: armed seditious insurrection that is completely out of place in our nation, or at least should be. I just posted an OP by Charles Pierce who is making this point as well, here:http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027497438
One of the silver linings with this situation is how it is shining a light on exactly how institutional racism works in America, but will we learn from this? Will we collectively come to terms with what we are seeing in a way that addresses the blatant institutional racism at work here? OR will we shrink away from that, walk on eggshells, look the other way, because it's too ugly, or too scary, or too "risky" to actually respond with our compassion and humanity rather that out of fear that dealing with it evenhandedly might "stir up a hornets nest" of more armed insurrection elsewhere?
On balance, I'm leaning heavily towards the notion that we need to draw a line in the sand in Oregon, or we are ALREADY ceding to blatant in-your-face institutionalized racism because we're afraid to stand up to it, because they have guns, and because their skin is white, and because --as you said-- much of our law enforcement is already infiltrated by white supremacists .. the FBI released a heavily redacted report in 2006 admitting this very thing.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/5/21/1384553/-2006-FBI-Report-on-White-Infiltration-of-Law-Enforcement-You-Will-Be-Assimilated
Finally, you appear --without ever directly saying so -- to agree that in this case, the "never negotiate with terrorists" thing should not apply, simply because these terrorists have white skin and pose as "patriots". Am I reading you right on this one?
Snobblevitch
(1,958 posts)a different piece of federal land, say Alcatraz, they too should be raided without regard to the occupier's safety? Just send in Delta Force (as was suggested in this thread) and kill them all?