This is the the "Gun Show Loophole"

[brentspeak]

Last edited Tue Jan 5, 2016, 06:24 AM - Edit history (3)

It is real, not some made-up or hyped-up myth. The term "gun show loophole" euphemistically used to refer to any legal private sale conducted outside of a gun shop or any other venue which requires NICS -- any legal private sale which is exempt from required background checks.

It was precisely this very real loophole which allowed a convicted felon to legally and easily purchase the 9mm handgun he used to conduct a murder rampage in West Virginia 13 months ago:

http://www.wvgazettemail.com/article/20141206/GZ01/141209458/1101

Monongalia County shooter got gun on Facebook

by Erin Beck, Public Safety Reporter

A convicted felon who killed four people in a shooting rampage in Monongalia County on Monday bought the gun from another West Virginian who posted it for sale on Facebook, a federal official said Friday.

Dewayne Haddix, resident agent in charge for the Clarksburg office of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, said the agency had determined that Jody Lee Hunt bought the gun he was found with after the shootings from another Monongalia County resident about a year ago. Authorities don’t believe Hunt, a Westover resident and owner of J&J Towing, and the seller previously knew each other.

Because he was a convicted felon, it was illegal for Hunt to possess a firearm. Federal law also prohibits people from knowingly selling or giving guns to convicted felons.

“We have no reason to believe the seller was in violation of state or federal law at this time,” Haddix said, noting that federal law requires illegal sales be made “knowingly” for sellers to be punished.

By any rational standard, the seller should have been in violation of state and federal law, but the gun "rights" lobby and its supporters have ensured that he and his fellow private sellers remain free to conduct these shadowy sales.

And you have to wonder: why do so many federally-licensed dealers -- who have to pay money to obtain and maintain their licenses -- support the "right" of non-federally-licensed dealers to conduct private sales legally immune from required background checks? After all, from a business standpoint, aren't those non-federally-licensed dealers cutting into the business of dealers who require their customers to undergo background checks and who have to pay taxes on their over-the-counter transactions? Aren't the non-federally-licensed dealers enjoying an unfair business advantage?

Then I found out the answer: the reason so many federally-licensed gun dealers support these unsupervised private sales is because so many of them conduct these private sales themselves. In addition to their legitimate gun business, licensed dealers have for decades been making piles of money on the side conducting "under the table" sales completely exempt from taxes. The loophole also gives licensed dealers an avenue to legally buy and sell from individuals who for various reasons do not want to undergo background checks.

Federally-licensed dealers who conduct unsupervised private sales are like pharmacists who have been allowed to legally buy and sell medications out of the trunks of their cars after hours.

In short, maintaining the "gun show loophole" has never been about "Maintaining The Integrity of Our Constitutional Right To Bear Arms"; it's always only been about maintaining a lucrative gravy train, human lives be damned. Obama is absolutely correct to close this loophole.

[madokie]

1. Sure he is

correct in closing this loophole.

[Duckhunter935]

4. too bad it actually will do very little

The law still will exempt private sales between two people residing within the same state.

[hack89]

2. Federally licensed dealers cannot legally sell guns without a background check.

The law is pretty clear on the matter. What you are describing are dirty dealers illegally trafficking guns.

[Duckhunter935]

3. and you would be wrong

Private sales between two people residing in the same state can happen anywhere not just gun shows. Show me in the law that exempts only gun shows, you can't. It is not a loophole as it is a state issue and some states require all transactions to have a background check. That is how federal law has been designed it is not a loophole.

[onehandle]

13. Wow! You're really showing us where the real problems are.

Taking notes. Making calls.

[Duckhunter935]

14. sure you are

Just showing how stupid it is to go after something that is not real, just a made up issue by the controllers that the NEWS channels repeat. A reason the executive orders will less than the duped people think.

[Amishman]

5. it must be closed, but the better way is by giving private sellers access to run NICS checks

rather than banning private sales.

want to sell privately? make it required to call in a background check and record some kind of transaction number on a bill of sale. make them keep that bill of sale (with check transaction number) for some number of years or face prison if caught.

Closes the loophole without unneeded restrictions, and no hand flapping over banning private sales.

[Lee-Lee]

7. That's is the right way to do this and the way that will be most likely to ever pass Congress

But all the anti gun people here are adamantly opposed to the idea, and I don't know why unless they have intentions they won't admit.

[Indydem]

8. Rest assured.

They have intentions they won't admit.

Some will. Most won't.

[Duckhunter935]

11. very true

[Eleanors38]

17. Proposed by pro-2A folks here for years. And roundly opposed. Why?

Because the "activists" for the most part want government-imposed bans and confiscations. Not only does it save them the work and expense of organizing around their views, but keeps the ban-no-ban culture war going because nearly every player in this dispute knows the usual suspects won't stop until guns are severely restricted or banned; a few have a peculiarly lurid and obsessive attraction to confiscation.

Culture war is like that. The war is more important than any positive resolution.

[Lee-Lee]

6. If you are aware of licensed dealers doing "off the books" sales as you claim to be then

RIGHT NOW call 1-800-ATF-GUNS.


NOW.

Tell the BATFE about every dealer engaging in this practice you have discovered.

That is very illegal and will get a dealers license quickly suspended and if the BATFE does their job get them prosecuted.

Call now.

If you don't report the illegal activity you claim to be aware of, then you are just as big a problem as the people engaging in it.

Let us know how it plays out.

[HoustonDave]

15. Absolutely correct

Once you acquire an FFL, you forfeit any right to have your personal guns 'privately sold' - EVERY gun you sell must be logged, background checked, and recorded, whether from your own collection or from dealer inventory.

As Lee-Lee says, a dealer doing this is violating several laws, sufficient that this is basis for license revocation and jail time.

As a side note - I would challenge the OP to present any evidence that large numbers of dealers were doing such a thing... this sounds like an "everyone just KNOWS" made-up urban myth. Supporting data, please.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

9. Private sellers are not allowed to access NICS.

[ileus]

10. BST groups are 80% of the reason most men are on FB.

I have 72 groups that I follow. Probably 30 Fishing, 30 hunting/firearm related, and 12 mics others.

I add groups, and delete groups every week.


So far I've traded/bought maybe 6 firearms on FB over the past 5 years.



I believe you'll find the problem is the fact, anti's always say gunshow loophole, when they mean "private sale" loophole. Always pretending that all guns sold at gunshows or online is the reason folks object.

Just tell the truth...it's a private sale loophole, and UBCs could probably get more support, but lies always fail.

[Duckhunter935]

12. it is really not a loophole

It is the design of the law to allow states to handle private transactions within the state by non-dealers

[brentspeak]

16. My post made it crystal clear what the term "gun show loophole" refers to

The term "gun show loophole" euphemistically used to refer to any legal private sale conducted outside of a gun shop or any other venue which requires NICS -- any legal private sale which is exempt from required background checks.

So where is the "lie"? Unless you're directing your post as someone other than the OP.

[ileus]

19. No not saying you were lying...you're 100% spot on.

[brentspeak]

20. Ok, no problem

[Paladin]

21. You're trying to co-opt the vocabulary to put the discussion into a ditch.

Typical pro-gun tactic that is running out of steam. "Gun show loophole" is a well-known, often-used phrase. It's not a "lie," as you put it.

[DefenseLawyer]

18. One of the reasons it came to be called the "Gun Show Loophole"

Is that it has been a common practice at some gun shows that in addition to the firearms dealers there would be supposedly independent individual "private sellers" there who just happened to have the exact same make and model of the gun the buyer who didn't want to fill out the 4473 form. "Well, I can't sell you that gun, but as luck would have it, my friend over there has a gun just like it for sale. You should go outside and talk to him." I don't know how many licensed dealers are actually conducting these under the table sales themselves anymore. That's a pretty risky proposition. But these stand-in "private sellers" are still pretty common.