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Cyrano

(15,023 posts)
Thu Jan 14, 2016, 11:42 AM Jan 2016

Oregon, Ruby Ridge and Waco

Last edited Thu Jan 14, 2016, 12:47 PM - Edit history (3)

IMO, the feds are waiting out the Oregon crazies because they don’t want to create any more “martyrs” for America’s hate/racist groups.

Yes, if they were black, brown or Muslim, the government would have moved in immediately with "guns blazing." But they treat these hate groups differently, mostly because of Ruby Ridge and Waco. (If you don’t know about Ruby Ridge and Waco, google them.)

So why are they waiting out these white crazies? I believe it’s because there are hundreds of groups exactly like them countrywide. And Obama and the Justice Department feel they don’t need to stir them up into committing more acts of tyranny/sedition. Regarding why they are treated differently, we don’t have to look past the bombing of the federal building in Oklahoma City.

(For a look at how many groups of “patriots,” “neo-Nazis,” “militias,” “KKK chapters,” and haters of every ilk, etc. see the Southern Poverty Law Center, splcenter.org)

Most of these people should have been arrested and charged after the incident at the Bundy ranch back in 2014. The fact that they weren’t has led to this (non-standoff) situation in Oregon. What's done is done.

But for right now, take a moment and put yourself in Obama’s position, or that of Loretta Lynch, the Head of the Dept. of Justice. What would you do? Attack them? Ignore them? Arrest them later? What’s the best path to take to ensure that the (literally tens of thousands of) crazies in this country don’t get the martyrs they want and need to further their wingnut “revolutionary” fantasies?

It’s easy for us to sit here and say “Why doesn’t the government …?”

And I’m as pissed off as everyone else that these crazy mother f*****s aren’t being “taken down.”

But in my calmer moments, I know that Obama and Loretta Lynch are in charge. And perhaps I'm wrong, but they are two people that I trust. And I believe they are doing their best to defuse the wingnuts without giving them what they want.


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Cerridwen

(13,251 posts)
2. Regardless of the outcome, anything "the feds" do will be painted as...
Thu Jan 14, 2016, 12:14 PM
Jan 2016

Regardless of the outcome, anything "the feds" do will be painted as wrong, stupid, ignorant, incompetent, or <pick your favorite intended-to-be-negative adjective> by the press.

The r/w, the republican party and the teabaggers will be all over any mispronounced syllable, any non-dotted "i" or uncrossed "t," and briebart, the blaze, fox "news," the western journalism center, aei, heritage foundation, and other "nonpartisan think tanks," and their twitter, keyboard "armies," et. al., will be twisting it, spreading it, and bloviating about it for years if not decades as just another example of the "evils" of "big government."

As with so many other lies the press has helped to catapult, it will become "common knowledge" that "everyone knows" within a few weeks and the press will have moved on to the next lie, obfuscation, and celebrity "melt-down."




Cyrano

(15,023 posts)
3. Can't argue with anything you've said, Cerridwen
Thu Jan 14, 2016, 12:28 PM
Jan 2016

Yet, I can't help but put myself in the position of Obama and Loretta Lynch. I really have no idea what I would do. And I'm grateful that I'm not president, or the head of the Dept. of Justice.

I don't envy them their responsibilities in the current circumstance. But they are the ones who must make the decisions. And the only thing I have to offer them is my support of their experience, judgement and wisdom.

Cerridwen

(13,251 posts)
4. Thanks, Cyrano.
Thu Jan 14, 2016, 12:47 PM
Jan 2016

I, too, am relieved we have intelligent people in charge during this.

That being said, I've noted that these types of things seem to crop up more under Democratic administrations rather than the republican ones. I'm going to go out on a limb and assume it's because these types of "anti-government except my SS/Medicare/Medicaid/etc." groups come from within the republican/teabagger/right-winger demographic and are less likely to challenge one of "their own." The one or two notable exceptions to the rule, noted.

But then, I'm from southern Nevada and I've known about bundy, the "sovereign citizens" movement, the independent american party, and the rest of that type, for most of my adult life. bundy got away with his decades of shit because we have/had so many politicians, bureaucrats, and officials in this state who have the same beliefs and are sympathetic to his "cause" and because he's not above using his religion as justification. Reading about his "antics" and that of his "cows" in the his small, hometown paper is evidence he and his family have bullied and terrorized his own community during those same decades.

It's a bit hard to explain as you'd have to understand the twists and turns of Nevada politics (and some of the "religious" influences); especially those of the rural parts and the older communities.

Cyrano

(15,023 posts)
5. I hear you
Thu Jan 14, 2016, 12:56 PM
Jan 2016

That is the reason the Republican Party is consistently calling for "STATES RIGHTS."

I think we fought a Civil War over "States Rights."

Yet, I have the feeling that too many people in this country feel that the "wrong side" won the Civil War.

And they are not about to surrender. And "States Rights" is their current battle cry.

 

B Calm

(28,762 posts)
6. I say wait it out and arrest them later. Imagine if we went to war every time the
Thu Jan 14, 2016, 01:05 PM
Jan 2016

Republicans wanted to.

ljm2002

(10,751 posts)
16. Of course the counterexample is the Bundys in Nevada...
Thu Jan 14, 2016, 04:37 PM
Jan 2016

...where the government waited them out and didn't ever arrest them.

That is the likely outcome here also, and that in my book is not acceptable.

 

99th_Monkey

(19,326 posts)
7. How is totally ignoring white domestic terrorists not: a 1) racist, 2) totally irresponsible?
Thu Jan 14, 2016, 01:07 PM
Jan 2016

Disclaimer: I live in Oregon, ok. So I have some especially piss-off feelings about this.

How is it not blatent institutional racism, to come in guns ablazing when the "threat" perps' skin
is black or brown; but if they are avowed white racists, we completely ignore their blatent law-breaking
on Federal land for weeks? It's utterly unconscionable, and irresponsible in the extreme.

How is this 'fair' to the citizens of Burns Oregon? It's not, it's an insult.

How is this not telegraphing "if you're white racist and are armed to the teeth, you're different, you're
special & above the law and can violate Federal laws with impunity on live TV and we'll do nothing". nothing.

How to deal with this without violence is not rocket science. I've posted already a bazillion times
now, as have others.

a) cut off all access (in or out) the Federal facility and lands involved.
b) cut off all utilities, jam the cell phones, water, electricity, etc.
c) wait them out and arrest them when they leave.

How fucking complicated is that? Jeez.

Nay

(12,051 posts)
10. Thank you. I've been gritting my teeth over these bastards for weeks. Get it
Thu Jan 14, 2016, 01:40 PM
Jan 2016

over with already. When the govt ignores blatant shit like this, it only ends badly because it emboldens those people.

 

99th_Monkey

(19,326 posts)
11. Exactly! It emboldens them, twice-over. now. They already owed the Gov't $1Million in unpaid fees
Thu Jan 14, 2016, 01:48 PM
Jan 2016

Hell, the Sheriff (one lonely soul) told these terrorists to leave, as have 90% of the Burns
residents, as has the OR governor, etc.

They have begun harassing & intimidating local citizens as well. Way beyond the pale.

Cyrano

(15,023 posts)
12. 99th_Monkey and Nay
Thu Jan 14, 2016, 02:11 PM
Jan 2016

I'm as frustrated as you are. I really want to see these terrorist bastards rot in hell.

Yet, I go back back to my OP.

Stop for one moment. Try to imagine yourself as Obama or Loretta Lynch. Not yourselves sitting at home in outrage. But as someone in a position where you can and must do something.

I really can't tell you what it is you could or would do. All I can say is that I have no idea what I would do.

Think. You have the power. Really, what would you do?

 

99th_Monkey

(19,326 posts)
13. Did you not read my post? Here.
Thu Jan 14, 2016, 02:15 PM
Jan 2016
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7528761

Where I lay out as clearly as possible in 3 simple steps, how to non-violently end this.

a) cut off all access (in & out) to the Federal facility and lands involved,
surround the place with wide perimeter if necessary.
b) cut off all utilities, jam the cell phones, water, electricity, etc.
c) wait them out and arrest them when they leave.


How complicated is that? If the FBI/ATF had done this on day one, we and the Burns community
would not have had to put up with all this shit, it would be OVER and done with by now.

Cyrano

(15,023 posts)
14. Okay, I agree with you.
Thu Jan 14, 2016, 04:04 PM
Jan 2016

My response is that I have no reasonable response to why they don't do so.

Perhaps there's more going on here than we know about. Or not.

It seems to me that we (the public) are never told what the govt. decides we shouldn't know "for our own good."

Then again, perhaps I'm just being paranoid and there is nothing else to know other than what is apparent to us all.

 

99th_Monkey

(19,326 posts)
15. Guess we're all a bit in the dark on this still.
Thu Jan 14, 2016, 04:11 PM
Jan 2016

and as you say, there may be good reasons.

The only one I can think of is they want to let the Bundy Gang commit as many felonies
as they wish, so the prosecution's case -- when they prosecute -- will be stronger.

There maybe others, but it's frustrating being so deliberately ill-informed as to the rationale
for total inaction, except to just watch & wait, while they keep abusing locals. Sadly though,
the fact that they completely got away with their armed resistance to federal agents in NV
already once, is not encouraging.

libodem

(19,288 posts)
8. I hope the FBI is following
Thu Jan 14, 2016, 01:08 PM
Jan 2016

All the communication that are going on so they can track the sympathizers. Maybe the FBI could set up some entrapment stings like they have with Muslims in this country.

The YeeHawdists have way more in common with the 1% because you can't be poverty stricken and be a fatcat cattle rancher. It takes big bucks and they probably get government subsidies to grow corn for feed. The Koch bros, father was a prime mover in the John Birch Society and these Militant Revolt Terrorists are on the same page.

The Kochs would like nother more than to log the forests for free to make disposable paper products like Brawny paper towels. The whole effort is for the rich to grab the resources for free or cheap and deny the common man access to the natural wonder of undeveloped public land.

Selfish bastards.

 

KittyWampus

(55,894 posts)
9. So the terrorists win, then. Our Federal Government is cowed into inaction
Thu Jan 14, 2016, 01:12 PM
Jan 2016

because of what some other extremists -might- do.

I do not agree with that.

There is a cost to Freedom that we all must bear together. The remote chance that -something- may happen as blowback.

And if you do not stand up to them, they become even more emboldened.

And the Federal Government comes off looking weak.

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