Taharrush - The Sickening And Terrifying Arab Rape Game That Is Spreading Across Europe(updated)

[Dems to Win]

Last edited Tue Jan 19, 2016, 04:21 AM - Edit history (4)

http://www.indiatimes.com/news/world/taharrush-the-sickening-and-terrifying-arab-rape-game-that-is-spreading-across-europe-249466.html

When the first incidents of women being assaulted by crowds of Arab men came out of Cologne, Germany, during New Years Eve, the news was being suppressed. Realisation it seems has now dawned and the German Federal Criminal Police Office, BKA, says that the alleged Arab rape game Taharrush is now in Europe. Yes, a disgusting game, brought to Europe by the hordes of ‘refugees’ seeking asylum.

Additional reports from Germany say that similar incidents have occurred in Berlin, Hamburg, Bielefeld, Frankfurt, Dusseldorf and Stuttgart. But it’s not only Germany that is suffering; other European nations such as Austria and Switzerland have also reported similar cases. According to Holger Munch of the BKA, attacks can range from stealing belongings, to groping and even rape. The women who have come out and reported these incidents tell of the horror they have gone through.

Taharrush is about large groups of Arab men surrounding their victims and then subjecting them to sexual assault. They form circles around women, and if there are enough men, drag the women along with the mob, rip their clothes off and physically assault them. The inner circle of men is the one assaulting the women, while the middle circle consists of spectators. Another outer circle tries to divert attention. Some men are placed strategically to act as if trying to help the women.

NO, the mass sexual assaults on New Year's Eve were not just another OktoberFest. The police have said they were UNPRECEDENTED in scale, organization, and disdain for police intervention. 1500 German men have never planned in advance to get together and sexually assault hundreds of women at a festival.

German women are faced with a new threat, brought to their country by foreign men.

Update: I used this story from India because it was the only English language coverage of today's comments by Holger Munch of the BKA, the federal police. Here's the story in German from Die Welt, headlined Sexual Harassment: The phenomenon of "taharrush gamea" has Arrived in Germany

http://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article150813517/Das-Phaenomen-taharrush-gamea-ist-in-Deutschland-angekommen.html


Update:This is the Best article I've read on this topic, a must read:

written by an Egyptian woman doctoral candidate living in Germany, Hala Kindelberger. From an Egyptian newspaper

http://www.dailynewsegypt.com/2016/01/13/arabs-sexual-harassment-in-germany-and-its-effect-on-merkels-plans/

The sexual harassment incident in Cologne, Germany on New Year’s Eve resulted in massive shock in the European community. About 1,000 immigrants of Arab origins gathered to practice mass harassment, which has become widely commonplace in Arab and Islamic countries. They separated the women in circles, with a detailed plan to isolate them so they could harass them sexually, physically, and in some cases, even raped them.

This scenario is known in our countries but for the pacifist German society that respects human rights, it is a real shock and places a major obstacle in front of Merkel’s plans not to put a limit on the number of refugees admitted to the EU. Those who oppose accepting refugees of Arab and Islamic origins have been given the biggest corroboration for their argument to refuse giving asylum to people to those who do not respect customs and traditions of the German society.

snip...

This catastrophic thinking has resulted in religious insanity that says girls should be taught their place in the streets and public spaces, to push them into donning the veil and push them out of the public sphere. Their rationale is that if women feel safe on the streets, they will be tempted to commit the sin of immodesty. By that virtue, harassment becomes a noble religious goal.

snip...

We cannot reach solutions if we do not discuss the phenomenon fairly and clearly and the Western communities cannot maintain their arguments of non-discrimination after what happened in Germany.

[hifiguy]

1. What a lovely culture,

deserving of our respect and acceptance. Who are we to criticize?

[uppityperson]

4. Rape culture is "lovely, deserving of our respect and acceptance"? Who says that?

What an odd reply.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gang_rape#United_States

France[edit]
Further information: Ni Putes Ni Soumises and Rape in France
Between 5000 to 7000 gang rapes are reported in France every year.[33]

In banlieues organised gang-rapes are referred to as tournantes, or "pass-arounds&quot .[34][35] One of the first people to bring public attention to the culture of gang rape was Samira Bellil, who published a book called Dans l'enfer des tournantes ("In Gang Rape Hell&quot .[34][35]

In October 2012, two girls in Fontenay-sous-Bois on the outskirts of Paris reported experiencing daily gang rapes in the high-rise tower blocks, sometimes by scores of boys. One witness described 50 boys "queuing" to rape her.[36] 10 of the 14 defendants who were minors at the time of gang rape were acquitted, while the remaining 4 adults found guilty were given 0 to 12 months in prison. This case shocked the country.[36][37] In 2014, the case of a Canadian tourist allegedly gang raped by four police officers in Paris received international attention.[38]

(clip)

Nigeria[edit]
Nigeria reports thousands of gang rapes every year.[55][56] In 2011, ABSU gang rape, where the gang videotaped their crime, drew widespread attention and protests inside Nigeria.[57] The prevalence of group rape has been proposed as a significant contributor to spread of sexual diseases and AIDS.[58][59]

(clip)

United States[edit]
The US reports about 85,000 rapes a year, about 27.3 rapes per 100,000 population.[98] There is a rape in the US every 6.2 minutes, with 1 in 5 women likely to be raped in her lifetime.[99] As with other countries, the US does not collect separate data on gang rapes; Vogelman and Lewis estimate 25% of all rapes in the US are gang rapes.[77] Another source indicates 21.8% of American rapes are gang rapes.[100]

Hundreds of gang rape cases on college campuses have been prosecuted.[12] A Roger Williams University study estimates from survey of crime data that 16% of all male rapists in the US participated in a gang rape crime.[101]

Some recent examples of gang rapes reported in local media include the Cleveland gang rape,[102] Richmond gang rape,[103] New Orleans gang rape,[104] St Paul gang rape,[105] Miami gang rape/murder,[106] Chicago gang rape[107] Delaware park gang rape[108] among others.

[hifiguy]

7. The cultural relativists will be showing up any time now.

They always do.

[uppityperson]

17. Again, this is confusing since that is what you did.

What a lovely culture,

deserving of our respect and acceptance. Who are we to criticize?

[Mendocino]

40. The sarcasm

and revulsion smilies are in the post. Perhaps you can't see them for some reason? Not trying to be snarky.

[niyad]

8. thank you for that information. would you please post it as its own OP for greater

visibility for this incredibly important topic? and in women's rights and issues?

[Jim Beard]

12. ah, how many rapes does India "REPORT" a year

[uppityperson]

19. Looks like they don't collect is separately. I don't have an answer, but here's the wiki bit

India[edit]
India has been characterized as one of the "countries with the lowest per capita rates of rape".[39] As with other countries, India does not collect separate data on gang rapes.

The gang rape of a 23-year-old student on a public bus, on 16 December 2012 brought international attention, and sparked large protests across the capital of India, Delhi.[40] Other reports include gang rape of an American tourist by three Nepalese men in Himachal Pradesh,[41][42] gang rape where the victim and rapists were of different castes,[43] gang rape triggering riots in Uttar Pradesh where the victim was a Dalit and rapists were Muslims.[44]

Interesting "cause and characteristics" of it from the wiki page on gang rape
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gang_rape

Causes and characteristics[edit]
Gang rapes often involve three or more men as perpetrators. These rapes have characteristics beyond those found in rape by individuals; for example, gang rapists tend to be younger and serial in their crimes, the gang is more often under the influence of drugs or alcohol, of the same race or religion or place of residence thereby forming a close-knit peer pressure group, encouraged by the behavior of their fellow criminals. Gang rapes are more violent; the sexual and non-sexual injuries to the victim are often far more severe. The gang members typically dehumanize their target victim(s) before and during the rape.[5][6][7]

Porter and Alison have analyzed 739 gang rape cases from US and UK, and found over 20% of the gang rape victims died from injuries from the gang rape.[8] A 2013 study based on 25 year crime data from US and Europe, between 10% to 20% of all rapes were gang rapes. Less than 1 in 3 gang rapes are reported, while less than 1 in 20 attempted but failed gang rapes are reported.[4]

A 2013 Lancet report on rape and gang rape in Bangladesh, China, Cambodia, Indonesia, Papua New Guinea, and Sri Lanka found that the crime was committed for various motives, such as sexual entitlement, seeking of entertainment, and a means to inflict punishment on the victim.[9] Associated factors in the crime included alcohol misuse, poverty, personal history of childhood victimization, need to prove heterosexual performance, dominance over women, and participation in gangs and related activities. Most cases were not reported to law enforcement, and just 23% of single or multiple perpetrator rapes that were reported by the victims ended in prison sentence.[9]

Gang rapes during civil wars and ethnic riots take added dimension of becoming a means of revenge, sending a message to the victims' community, inducing fear in the opponent, creating a sense of solidarity among the soldiers or militants or the violent group.[10][11]

Gang rape is sometimes stereotyped in media as a crime of poor, minorities or culture; however, gang rape incidence rates are high in wealthy college campuses, among non-minorities and every culture.[12] Everywhere there is a tendency to blame the victim; however, gang rapes are almost always pre-meditated in their intent, target victim(s), social proof and psychological causes.[13][14] Certain events such as civil wars, hate propaganda, and ethnic conflicts increase the incidence rate of gang rapes.[15][16]

According to one study,[17] over 70% of the victims were gang raped by rapists of same race and religion. Most covered and debated gang rapes tend to be those involving victim and rapists of different race or religion or social class.[citation needed]

Gang rape can be interpreted as an example of a group criminal spin. Accordingly, a group of individuals may perform an initial behavior that proceeds in a criminal direction far beyond the initial intention of its participants. Within this process, each group member contributes a certain role towards the development of the criminal spin—even the passive members, who are silent participants, support the spin by their very presence. It is considered a group criminal spin because the most gang members perform this act only during a group interaction, “letting themselves” deviate from their everyday norms. On these occasions, the group interaction provides an “I can” component of a spin: Although each member does not usually sense an inner ability and permission to act in the criminal direction, i.e., to gang rape, the perceived power of the group supplies this sense and allows the act. In the same way, a group interaction may display an “I must” motive, thus social forces within the group directs it towards raping. In any case, the interaction of members of a group in a spin gives rise to self-centered norms that contribute to the further development of the criminal spin till the extreme point of an accomplishment of the rape.[citation needed]

[synergie]

202. They still do a far better job than we do. We don't "report" very many

and we take rape kits but then do nothing about them for decades.

Oh and when young girls are gang raped there, they actually get a little upset. When the same thing happens here, we have our media figures literally pivoting from the Indian reaction (demonstrations on the street and demands for justice all over the country) to very concerned faces wondering how the dear boys who made facebook postings of the video of their actions with their drugged classmates will fare in their college and high school football careers.

And when it's many males raping a girl, be it an 11 year old it texas, a 15 year old in Ohio or in California or in NYC, we never, ever, ever call it a gang rape, that's just something that happens where brown people are and it lets us pretend that we're somehow not living in a country that has 1/3 the population of India, but hosts 3x the number they do, one ever 2 minutes or so, while India has a comparatively better rate of one in every 20 minutes. So they're less vile than we are with rape culture, in many ways. Pointing fingers rarely works out well for us.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/01/delhi-rape-damini

[JI7]

42. rape culture is seen in many cultures. in the US college sports military

[hifiguy]

43. Not to that degree. Not close.

[JI7]

44. you are denying what exists in the US. There is a serious problem with what is

Happening in europe . Much of it is about culture and they need to do something about it.

But some are using it as just a way to attack an entire other group rather than really care about the issue.

[uppityperson]

45. Thank you for stating that so well.

[sibelian]

96. We could just as easily accuse you of "attacking" colleges sports and military as an "entire group"

Either there is a [somewhat-predictive] correlation between type and behaviour or not, my question to you is this - why is attributing the propensity for sexual abuse among college athletes, sportsmen and military personnel acceptable to you while the attribution of the propensity for sexual abuse among the citizens of nation-states under a religion that literally counts women as half the value of a man and untrustworthy of driving motorised vehicles NOT acceptable?

[JI7]

111. i just said in that post there is a problem with the culture

Of those muslims who are sexually assaulting women in europe.

[sibelian]

116. Fair enough. It just IRRITATES me when people start making comparisons...

Clearly men congregating in thousands and surrounding women in groups while preventing the police from intervening and groping the women is NOT a typical Western phenomenon.

WHAT is the comparison FOR? What's it supposed to reveal? We already know Western misogyny is wrong. It's as if there's some other narrative going on under the surface. Whenever I try to get people to bring this narrative to the surface its seems to disappear.

[JI7]

117. the comparison is stupid but so is to claim the type of sexual assault

That did take place is not as bad.

People should be able to condemn and say there is a problem without turning it into some contest.

[sibelian]

118. Well, I wonder if hifiguy thought that was what YOU were doing.

I certainly did... It seems not, peace and goodwill to you my dear fellow.

[JI7]

200. the problem i have is some seem to be going from acknowledging this is a serious problem

with the people coming in and the need to do something about it to trying to turn it into we are a better people overall.

someone mentioned abu ghraib as an example and that's another one i brought up where htere are serious problems in the US.

unlike some others i'm not saying this has nothing to do with culture . i know something needs to be done about the people who are doing this and this may include limiting peoplewho can come in. and this will probably affect innocent people also.

[sibelian]

215. It's an extremely awkward and complicated situation. MANY factors impinge on this.

Yes, innocent Syrians will feel a fair bit of backlash, as will established and socially integrated Muslims who have already been living in Europe for decades.

It's almost at a stage now of "who do we sacrifice".

What we WANT, obviously, is to be able to trust these young Muslim men who are actually likely to be abusive to move away from that attitude so we can accommodate them *if* they are genuine asylum seekers. I don't want weighted narratives. I want the problem actually fixed. Education might work, but in the cases of some groupings we're talking about guys who have grown up in a very patriarchal culture who have already decided what their relationship to women is and I do not see that I would be persuadable of a new relationship to women in general if I emigrated to Tunisia and was told I was to treat women as inferior, so I do not know how long all this education will actually take to generate the desired result.

We are in an unfortunate situation where no solution is entirely clean. The simplest solution is to decide we're not responsible for them. That's the easy way out, not necessarily the right one, but if you leave these problems to fester, the easy way out very often becomes the ONLY way out.

Education of young Muslim men to accept Western values regarding women could very easily be spun as "oppressive", "cultural re-programming", etc. I will not be surprised to hear that story emerging.

I don't want the problem-solving aspect of this process to be driven by a guilt complex. I want it driven by a rational process that understands what the outcomes it wants actually are, with some effort being put in to make it blummin well work. I realise that sounds obvious, but I see a great deal of guilt-complexing here. I don't see that that will actually help.

[smirkymonkey]

123. I can't remember when I have been surrounded by a gang of white, black or hispanic

men in this country. It just doesn't happen here.

[KingCharlemagne]

197. I suppose you and your supporters have forgotten Abe Ghraib? As the

Church Lady might say, "Well, isn't that convenient? "

[clarice]

171. Congratulations !!! First up to validate this behavior. nt

[underthematrix]

2. Rape is terrifying and sickening wherever it happens

including America

[katsy]

9. Did you read the article?

This isn't rape in America and if I were being raped in the street in America chances are LEO would break the rapists head. These criminals were in groups of sufficient number that police were ineffective. They couldn't help the women. I would venture that these are hate crimes against the women.

Germany should immediately enforce curfew on Muslim men until the police can fully be prepared to protect women. Women shouldn't be penalized by curtailing their right to be safe anytime, anywhere as reasonably expected. The criminals should be subject to harsher laws against sexual assaults than currently in place. Lower the judicial boom so to speak.

If Germany doesn't act their far right political parties will gain ground and penalize all immigrants/refugees.

That said, Islamic law sucks as bad as biblical fundies. Those religions are garbage and hopefully time will destroy them. No place for misogyny or homophobia in this modern world.

[Dems to Win]

16. +1

[niyad]

18. "chances are LEO would break the rapist's head"????? what in the HELLLLLL are you smoking?

perhaps you should familiarize yourself with exactly how few rapists in this country are ever arrested, much less prosecuted and convicted.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

27. Chickenshit DAs refuse to prosecute good ole boys in Texas, by the way.

Gotta protect them from charges of sexual assault (groping). And this was a female DA.

Her reasoning for not going to a grand jury?"She acted like a typical victim." SO then WHAT kind of behavior would make her take it to a grand jury? Huh?

Sickening. Under reported and under prosecuted everywhere.

[niyad]

29. she apparently heard the old, hateful saying, "the only good rape victim is a dead one"

[katsy]

33. Calm down

Rapes are not adequately investigated or punished.

In my town... LEO, and family LEO take rape really seriously. It's not that way everywhere.

[niyad]

37. no, it isn't, which is why your comment was disturbing.

[chervilant]

41. Calm down?!?

How condescending!

Your comments are offensive. You would do well to educate yourself about how few rapists are brought to trial.

[katsy]

46. Which comments?

The bad analogy about rape here in the us or that I support harsher punishment for sexual assaults?

There is a difference between supporting sexual assaults and rape as sanctioned by Islamic law and out totally inadequate, but moving in the right direction, laws against rape here in the us. Yes woman are more equal here under secular western law.

Your outrage is a distraction from a he point I was trying to make.

Punishment for rape is wholly inadequate across all nations but Islam sanctions women as chattel.

[chervilant]

98. Let's start with:

... if I were being raped in the street in America chances are LEO would break the rapists (sic) head.

Most rapists are never prosecuted. Those who are seldom serve more than five years. One study shows 97 of 100 rapists are not prosecuted, so most serve no time at all.

There's more, but you're just not worthy of any more of my time.

[katsy]

101. You are all over the map with your screed

Where I live that's how it would go down.

But that was just a bad comparison.

Your reply to my last post accuses me of something I never even said.

Thus... You are on ignore

[1939]

108. Most rapes in the US

don't take place in the presence of LEO. On a crowded public street with a police presence, you are not likely to be raped.

[chervilant]

109. Indeed, and

I feel this is an obvious contention. I have the person to whom I responded on my IL, but I hope s/he will make an effort to learn the statistics out there regarding the crime of rape -- here in the US, and around the globe.

[chervilant]

236. That may be true, in general,

but if "gangs" of men were to attain a mob mentality, as did the Egyptians who raped Lara Logan, I think such an assault might happen, despite the presence of police.

[randys1]

226. Hell, rightwing males believe

at least half of all rapes, or more, are Women making it up because they are pissed about something.

I JUST had that conversation a week ago.

Sadly I think many rightwing Women are believing this garbage as well.

[niyad]

232. that conversation is had here on a regular basis, as well. mind-boggling on a

progressive board.

[stevenleser]

91. I think that is two separate issues. I haven't heard of instances in the US where 1500 men surround

a woman, attack her and physically prevent law enforcement from getting to her to help her.

To the other person's point, if law enforcement here in the US sees a person being assaulted, sexually or otherwise, they help in 99.99% of cases. The issues in the US come into play afterwards if law enforcement didn't actually see the event. Too often law enforcement chooses not to believe the victim and prosecutors refuse to prosecute.

I understand your point as well that, perhaps, the end result is the same, but what these women experienced in Germany seems a few steps worse.

[philosslayer]

26. no, no, NO

Yes, this behavior must be stopped. No one disagrees with that. "Germany should immediately enforce curfew on Muslim men". NO. Blanket condemnations and punishments are NEVER the answer. German officials should instead step up patrols to prevent such occurences, and arrest perpetrators.

Let me ask you this. Do you think all Muslim men should be prohibited from entering the United States? Please explain the difference between that particular position, and what you proposed.

[katsy]

34. Yes yes yes

First protect all women.

Let the law abiding men exert pressure on their not so evolved peers to stop all misogynistic acts. A curfew is not undue hardship on men. Exceptions for work or medical emergencies should be afforded. Hey the mayor of cologne suggested that the victims alter THEIR behavior. What I suggest is far more reasonable. The rights of the victims trump asylum seekers/migrant workers.

Why the outcry? I'm all for victims right to be free and safe.

[uppityperson]

71. You say yes yes yes to "Do you think all Muslim men should be prohibited from entering the United...

"Do you think all Muslim men should be prohibited from entering the United States"

Seriously?

[katsy]

89. I didn't say that.

If the German police need to ramp up in order to better protect women, or train sufficient officers to keep the peace, the solution isn't keeping women off the streets or altering women's lifestyles. Impose curfew on the men.

[smirkymonkey]

128. Yes, absolutely.

I am sick of countries sacrificing the hard won rights of women for the sake of PC acceptance of non-natives. A country's duty should always be primarily about protecting its citizens.

[uppityperson]

130. Just to clarify, you want to ban all men of a certain religion from entering the USA?

You answer "Yes, absolutely" to "all Muslim men should be prohibited from entering the United States"

[smirkymonkey]

134. Only if they are young and single.

Married and older men do not seem to cause the problems.

[uppityperson]

135. Casey Kasem was sooooo scary, as is Ahmed Zewail. Incredible, ban all male Muslims from the USA.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmed_Zewail

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_American_Muslims

[randys1]

227. And you are hearing this crap on an alleged liberal message board. Imagine the garbage

you would be hearing if this was a righty board.

Obviously you dont ban Muslim men or have a curfew only for them, unless you want to violate basic rights AND be an asshole.

But if you are in an area where a large number of men are doing something, then you have to put an even larger number of authorities out to protect the Women.

The clash of cultures is an issue, but I know for a fact the vast vast majority of Muslims would NEVER tolerate this raping

[uppityperson]

229. It is amazing, to frame it as "you don't care about women", to me.

Curfew young muslim men, don't let young muslim men in the the usa, you don't care about women wanting who are unduly upset about such stupid thing as being able to be not moleste, etc etc etc etc.

[randys1]

233. And after all this turns out the source is bullshit...usually I am good about not falling

for bullshit sources

[uppityperson]

234. Was this discredited beyond the snopes link I posted? Thanks.

[uppityperson]

231. Older married men don't cause problems with women?

[katsy]

137. I didn't address that question at all

And I won't answer it until I see how authorities resolve the crime issue.

I'm not in the no refugees camp. Im not for extreme punishment en mass for petty crimes either. Drugs... Theft... That's not cultural. Measures to curb that are well known and I'm sure are addressed.

I'm in the feminist camp. The German/European LEO need to find and bring to justice sexual predators and rapists. Period. Their laws IIRC are not NEARLY punishment enough for crimes against women. They also need to ramp up their LEO #s so to sufficiently protect women and children.

If they cannot do that, then barring medical or employment matters, curfew on the migrant/refugee men until such time as there is sufficient LE to protect women. Women should not be inconvenienced at all. Not one step back in war for women's rights. Not one.

Cultural issues regarding women's equality along with that of the LGBTQ community, diversity of religious and athiest thought, protection for the Jewish community... These are all matters that must be discussed with the EU Muslim community. They need to make their own choices whether they even want to integrate with western culture.

[uppityperson]

138. That was in reply to smirkymonkey who agrees with banning all young male muslims

[smirkymonkey]

142. I don't really see the problem with that.

Sorry.

[uppityperson]

154. You don't see a problem with broadbrush bigotry against everyone of a religion?

You have no problem with ignoring this part of the First Amendment? "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"

[sibelian]

160. Cough. Ahem. With the greatest of respect, Sir/Ma'am, we are not talking about your nation.

We are talking about MY CONTINENT.

There is no constitutional right, as far as I know, in any European democracy, to sexually molest women in public.

THAT is the problem under discussion, and it is attributable, in primary, to the religion of those attackers.

We can quibble for days over the extent to which we allow ourselves to characterise the followers of a religion, when large groups of those followers congregate in public, seperate women from the crowd, prevent the police from helping them and sexually abuse them AND we know they come from nations where misogyny is openly and aggressively propagated by a hegemonising philosophy we are permitted to make observations regarding that hegemonising philosophy whether it's a religion or not. All religions are not "equal".

SCIENTOLOGY calls itself a religion, sir/ma'am. Are we to extend you courtesies to them?

[uppityperson]

161. YOU may be, but THEY said "Yes, absolutely" to the question about the USA.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7537449
You say yes yes yes to "Do you think all Muslim men should be prohibited from entering the United States"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7541349

Yes, absolutely.

I am sick of countries sacrificing the hard won rights of women for the sake of PC acceptance of non-natives. A country's duty should always be primarily about protecting its citizens.

I understand YOU are talking not about the USA, but the poster I replied to there, and replied back to me, WERE talking about the USA.

Are you asking if Scientologists should be allowed in the USA or Europe? Are you advocating banning them from certain countries due to their beliefs?

There is no constitutional right in the USA to sexually molest women in public either. What an odd thing to write in response to what the USA constitution says about religion.

[sibelian]

163. Well, Ok sorry.

But, to be frank, I don't see why the situation in the US would be any different.

In fact, given that the US has had a long-standing military involvement with the area...

[uppityperson]

164. So my cousin can not visit his family in France because he's muslim? Oh.

And all those USA soldiers who are muslims are also in that category of gang rapists and so should not be allowed into Europe?

Yes. I will speak out against such bigotry.

[sibelian]

166. Yes, he CAN and and the USA soldiers are already US citizens, I assume...

... what we need to be understanding of is the actual nature of the individuals applying for asylum and whether or not they are in fact refugees rather than simple economic opportunists.

The problem is MASS migration. It is stressing the system and encouraging young men who would otherwise not have the opportunity to emigrate to pass themselves off as asylum seekers.

[uppityperson]

168. Thank you for seeing this on an individual basis. I agree with what you write here, do not agree

with those who say ban all young men if they are muslim regardless of anything else.

The world is a mess in so many ways, politically, geographically, environmentally, etc etc etc. And there are those who take advantage of situations to hurt others.

[sibelian]

176. Well. I have to say I certainly understand your reticence to go down that path.

I have in many of these threads tried to be fairly clear about what I see as the problem here, and as far as I'm concerned in Germany there was a rush to appear tolerant to an imaginary audience rather than a good faith attempt to be genuinely humanitarian and help the people who are actually suffering. This resulted in loopholes which are being exploited. Several stories are intersecting here, what I want to do is separate them out and attribute responsibility accurately.

I understand totally why banning all young Muslim men is problematic for you but I want at least people to understand that we are choosing from a very small number of real-world options and it's becoming a "damned-if-you-do/don't" problem. I think we need to be very clear about what our nations are truly responsible for, what we can consider to be our respective states' duty towards us and what their duties are towards people who are not in our nations and what these states can actually achieve. I think Germany has been and is continuing to be very reactionary in both directions on this subject and isn't thinking straight.

I have yet to decide if banning all young Muslim men is entirely beyond reason. I understand that it is a deeply troubling idea. I do not want to be in the position of making that call, but I also do NOT feel that my country deserves to be treated as a huge sociological experiment. If there are more large scale attacks like this, more Paris-style terrorism, more gunmen on trains, more gunmen on beaches, more defectors to ISIS from the UK I do not see how I can seriously justify opposing such a ban indefinitely. There has to be a limit to how much abuse our values end up enabling.

This whole story is getting very repetitive in Europe, and European multicultural tolerance is being tested and being found wanting. It's not doing anything. We must at least be able to get to the stage where newspapers aren't embarassed about addressing the culture-clash problem. It is real and no longer possible to ignore it. We cannot live in a society where people get away with crimes because they are already perceived themselves as "victims", and we have skirted perilously close enough to that already.

The situation in Europe is not calming down. It is slowly, incrementally getting worse.

[uppityperson]

178. The USA needs to ban big C Christians as they cause most of the problems here

The whole thing is getting worse, all over. I used to joke about humans going extinct, now it's not such a funny joke. People have not evolved emotionally anywhere near as fast as they have intellectually, socially not as fast as technologically. What a species, to have caused so much damage to the earth and each other so fast.

[sibelian]

214. That is a powerful observation and I agree with you with regards to emotional intelligence.

Your comparison to big C Christians is apt.

The tolerance of religion only works if the tolerance goes both ways and some of these philosophies are not content to sit and wait for us all to "catch up" with them.

The situation in the comfortable economic times over the past decades has been a kind of DADT for religion, now religious fanatics are seriously intensifying their rhetoric. Whether they will be taken seriously long term remains to be seen, I suspect not but I think this intensification speaks to a range of problems that we are, as a species (as you indicate, it is a species-wide phenomenon) have failed to get to grips with.

I do not see that we need to bomb each other over perceptions of God. Unfortunately we are already in the bombing story so we have to figure out the appropriate moral position in the current circumstances. Never will I chastise you, uppityperson, for "holding fast to the one noble thing", your stance is necessary. Voices like yours are those that solidify, foment, and sanctify peace.

Oh well, off on a tangent there...

[smirkymonkey]

203. Nope.

Sorry, I don't. Not when it means Women's rights get thrown under the bus.

[uppityperson]

209. Only muslim men assault women, in your view? Bigotry is a nasty thing to see here

[smirkymonkey]

132. Yes, absolutely.

[sibelian]

92. What is YOUR SOLUTION?

Bring it.

[hifiguy]

113. Well, well, what a surprise.

[sibelian]

120. No kiddin'.

German women < Islamic immigrants.

[Squinch]

112. These assaults are a blanket punishment to ALL women. This is punishment to women for not behaving

as these men's beliefs say women should behave.

The offending actions of women that are being punished by these gangs of rapists are things like: walking in the street, being outside - not even necessarily alone, being women.

YES. Impose a curfew. YES prevent young men from these uncivilized cultures from emigrating into civilized cultures. At least until those practices are no longer rampant in the places they are emigrating from.

Then the men from these cultures who are innocent of these acts might just work on those who are perpetrating these acts. There's got to be a lot of tolerance for this kind of shit if something called a "rape game" exists. Maybe a ban on all young men from these places will cause them to understand that this is not to be tolerated. Clearly, right now they ARE being tolerated.

Sorry, I got no sympathy for this.

[hifiguy]

114. Blammo.

[sibelian]

121. D'ACCORD.

[underthematrix]

31. Thank you for your comment

[smirkymonkey]

87. +1000

[smirkymonkey]

124. +1000

[uppityperson]

162. "Germany should immediately enforce curfew on Muslim men"? Maybe they should have them wear a patch

on their clothing or something so people can easily identify them.
just in case.

[katsy]

165. Yeah becuz better than a curfew on men....

Women should not walk alone, at night, without alpha male, in a miniskirt, without a burka, or better yet, wait for it.... Keep her arms outstretched so as a rapist or molester understands and will comply with her SNOTTY UNREASONABLE HYSTERICAL wish to not be MOLESTED.

Let's see,,, curb womens human right of not being molested with young men's right to be out and about all night. Ok yeah I'm good with curfews. To compare a curfew, which is enacted by LE to keep the peace in many extreme cases with the genocide and nazi tactics is despicable.

And a curfew for their upcoming celebration may be warranted if they don't have enuf LE to protect citizens rights.

Soooo.. Until German authorities can INTRODUCE and explain western laws and customs to the migrant/refugee community, protect women. Period. Their rights trump men who can't control themselves. Oh yeah right... Colognes mayor thinks the little pictograms should work fine explaining German custom. Wonder what the pictogram explaining NO SEXUAL MOLESTATION looks like. How cute and funny that would look right?

The newcomers and migrants need some serious education in German law 101.

ON EDIT: you know what... Forget it. Let the chips fall where they may. Don't inconvenience the migrants and refugees. Now you answer me this... What will happen to german immigration policies and the EU experiment if a repeat of NYE happens at carneval? How is that going to impact the refugees? Because it looks like Germany is just going to wing it anyway. They didn't have a plan to educate or integrate these refugees and migrants. They had no plan and everyone, women's rights and refugees will suffer for it. And colognes idiot mayor complains about being insulted and mocked in der spiegel. She still thinks pictograms should suffice. She's an idiot who's going to hand the RW a big victory next election. Read the interview. She makes me sick.

Don't go on the attack with me becuz I feel the same way about male predators of ALL nationalities. I don't think laws against rape are stiff enuf in any part of the world and I don't like ANY backsliding on hard fought women's rights.

[uppityperson]

169. I find it discouraging that you can only see those 2 extremist resolutions, all men or all women

lose rights.

Keep all muslim men inside, curfew them.
All women must take extreme measures to not be molested.

How about looking at who the problems are, what situations, and not blaming every single man for the actions of the male assholes, rather like not blaming every single woman for the actions of women assholes?

I am amused by your capitalizations of snarky sarcasm. It doesn't help much of anything, neither does the dichotomous thinking going on there. And yes, imposing a curfew on all muslim men is the first step where making them wear an identifying mark to make sure everyone knows who is dangerous is the second step. Neither of which help.

[katsy]

174. I proposed a solution to a bad situation that can hurt

all refugees in the future if the German government doesn't step up and act responsibly.

1. Educate the newcomers

2. Sufficient law enforcement so they aren't overwhelmed by coordinated gangs of sexual predators.

Curfew is not an intro to naziism. It was as offensive when u first said it as it is now. What an insult to every victim of the holocaust. You marginalized the true evil perpetrated on people of that era. In what country or world is imposing a curfew to maintain order a gateway to naziism. Are you okay? Just link to any pub that decries curfew as naziism. Stop embarrassing yourself.

You know what is risking a rw anti immigrant rush the next election? Denial that a problem exists, the lack of a grown up plan to educate and integrate the newcomers and protection of their citizens.

[uppityperson]

175. If it is a curfew aimed at a group of people based on some characteristic like religion, it is the

start of the same thing. Curfew the jewish people. Curfew the muslims. See? Same thing, different day. It is the start of something really bad, to do such a thing.

Do a majority of muslim men molest women? Do men of other religions or lack of molest women? Then why say curfew all muslim men to keep women safe from molestation?

[katsy]

177. Why curfew people that aren't associated with

Organized gangs of young men terrorizing women?

You need to connect some dots here. The questions you asked above are nonsense.

Read the news articles. It was organized gangs of arabic speaking men. They had cheat sheets of vulgarities translated from Arabic to German. Cell phones that were stolen were traced back and recovered in refugee camps.

FFS if this happens again at carneval no matter what Katsy says in a anytown USA is going to help those poor refugees. No matter what side of the refugee issue you're on... Preventing this shit from happening to any more women is a win-win.

You are so thoughtful about this let me ask you: If Germany is not equipped to introduce, educate and integrate migrants/refugees AND they can't ramp up sufficient LEO to protect women... What is your solution? Are you pro pictograms like the stupid mayor of cologne? Think that'll bridge the cultural gap between Muslim law and women, gays, atheists?

I'm not of the pc mind right now. I think a reasonable curfew on young Muslim men is not undue hardship on them. Being blown up in their mother country is a tragedy. Being deported is a hardship that may follow if these crimes carry on into carneval.

[uppityperson]

180. "I think a reasonable curfew on young Muslim men is not undue hardship on them"

That is where we differ.

You say my questions are nonsense? "Do a majority of muslim men molest women? Do men of other religions or lack of molest women?" What an odd thing to say while still saying you are looking for a solution to women being molested. Unless you figure out who is doing what, and who is not doing what, any reactions you have are half baked.

To penalize my nephew, to put a "not undue hardship" of a curfew on him because some asses who share his religion were asses is wrong. It does nothing to protect any of us.

[katsy]

183. Where in the US have we experienced the events of NYE in Germany

So why would your nephew need curfew? Or all Muslim men?

This is what I mean by your refusal to connect the dots.

NYE large coordinated sexual assault parties by gangs of Muslim men according to eyewitnesses overwhelmed LEO so they couldn't protect women and girls. LEO couldn't protect these women. Get that? You can't zone in to what I think may be a solution to Germanys problems and view that as an attack on your nephew ffs.

Okay let the chips fall. Let's see how the German public resolves this issue since their shit for govt is helpless.

[uppityperson]

192. My YOUNG MUSLIM MAN nephew can not be out and about when visiting family in Germany

"I think a reasonable curfew on young Muslim men is not undue hardship on them". He. Is. A. Young. Muslim. Man. visiting family in Germany.

[katsy]

193. Ah well dont worry I'm not chancellor.

Eom.

[nil desperandum]

213. Depending how young your nephew is

he might already be subject to curfews in the US. Youth curfews exist throughout the US.

Typically it's juveniles(regardless of religion) so for example if your nephew lives in DC during july and august and is under 18 he won't be allowed to wander DC between midnight and 6am either.

Other cities have enforced curfews around holidays or halloween on a regular basis here in the US.

There is more than enough legal precedent to enact such a curfew in any city, in any state in the US.

The difference being, of course unlike the reply above, that it would not be limited to muslims...so your nephew and mine wouldn't be allowed out. The religious and non-religious alike would be affected.

[Yo_Mama]

182. I cracked up about the Karneval pictographs!!! Like people who are robbing

will be convinced by a cartoon. The offenders knew what they were doing was wrong.

I am wondering if that poor woman doesn't have some lingering effects from the horrific assault.

[katsy]

185. Read a thread down. There's a link to actual pictograph.

I'm

[Yo_Mama]

187. That's a different one for swimming pools. Not for Karneval.

I do not believe, and the German people cannot possibly believe, that this is all just a misunderstanding.

[katsy]

190. Nor do I.

And the German govt is guilty for not adequately preparing for the cultural differences.

I agree with you.

[rtw]

179. The Local has the pictogram

Still wrapping my head around its necessity.

http://www.thelocal.de/20160115/town-bans-asylum-seekers-from-pools-after-spate-of-harassment

[katsy]

181. I can't believe I just saw that!

Are you kidding me?

It fits right in to the general incompetence that German lawmakers are displaying. Total stupidity.

I wouldn't be surprised if they added the words "pretty please" on that pictogram in the aftermath of that clusterfuck on NYE.

They are treating these men as if they are infants no wonder the govt and LE isn't being taken seriously.

They put out a cartoon as if that can address the deep, complex cultural issues between Islam and modernity. What a bunch of baffoons.

[niyad]

10. YES

[zazen]

13. damn right, and we need to adapt the strategies for the on the ground realities

[pnwmom]

145. This is organized, group rapes. This is a growing problem, but not yet in America. n/t

[Jim Beard]

3. This is the YouTube in your article

Last edited Sat Jan 16, 2016, 09:56 PM - Edit history (1)

from http://www.indiatimes.com/news/world/taharrush-the-sickening-and-terrifying-arab-rape-game-that-is-spreading-across-europe-249466.html

[uppityperson]

5. Wiki gang rape page is a start for links on gang rape phenomenon. It is not a new thing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gang_rap

[Jim Beard]

14. It is a BIG thing in Europe now

[uppityperson]

22. Rape, molestation, are awful.

[uppityperson]

59. Rape is awful, but here is a SNOPES link about this, isn't new, has been happening long before refug

http://www.snopes.com/2016/01/11/refugees-new-years-eve/

(clip)
While it's possible that all of the attackers were, indeed, immigrants or asylum-seekers, the everyday atmosphere in Cologne (and other German cities) might suggest otherwise. One activist told German news outlet Deutsche Welle that women have been putting up with street harassment and sexual assaults since long before the refugee crisis began:

"Because refugees are now a burning topic, the media all of a sudden report about these events, but what nobody wants to admit is that these things happen all the time. I'm sorry to break this to you, but German-born men also harass and rape."

Incidents of anti-refugee violence (and "human hunts&quot are already brewing in Germany as a direct result of the New Year's events, despite pleas from the government to not jump to conclusions until the investigation is complete. Germany's Justice Minister Heiko Maas told the press that "some people appear just to have been waiting for the events of Cologne," adding:

As abominable as the crimes in Cologne and other cities were, one thing remains clear: there is no justification for blanket agitation against foreigners.

[sibelian]

95. I know you're trying to be fair...

... but I think you need to read some more about the Cologne attacks, at least.

"the media all of a sudden report about these events" - that is not the case, unfortunately, and the absence of reporting on the phenomenon is causing levels of frustration likely to being about the very thing the news blackout wishes to prevent.

"German-born men also harass and rape" - this is becoming a serious problem now, German-born men did not commit these crimes and repeated references to other rape cases in Germany are not relevant, this is an entirely new phenomenon.

I urge you to read further.

[Lizzie Poppet]

110. Of course it's not just the recent refugees.

But besides being male, what do you suppose is the common element among the large majority of attackers? Hint: it rhymes with "muslin."

Obviously the majority of Muslim immigrant males don't commit rape or other sexual aggressions. But one cannot rationally deny that this epidemic of such crimes is being committed, in the overwhelming majority, by Muslim men. If the state doesn't deal with this, the state's leadership will be replaced (by right-wingers), or the citizenry will take matters into their own hands, an even worse outcome...the kind that's historically led to pogroms in Europe.

This is a crossroads moment in Europe, and regardless of outcome, I think we've seen the end of reflexive deferral to unquestioning multiculturalism. There really are cultures incompatible with modern, liberal Western culture.

[KittyWampus]

38. this is a subcategory- it's a hate crime against European, unveiled women as well.

[postulater]

6. Horrifying. Nt

[greenman3610]

15. the link is not in english - what is this?

it certainly is horrifying, would like to know when and where that occurred..

[Jim Beard]

48. http://www.indiatimes.com/news/world/taharrush-the-sickening-and-terrifying-arab-rape-game-that-is-s

http://www.indiatimes.com/news/world/taharrush-the-sickening-and-terrifying-arab-rape-game-that-is-spreading-across-europe-249466.html

Gang rape video posted above

[rollin74]

47. there is no punishment severe enough for the animals engaged in that criminal so-called game

[zazen]

11. I'd like a dart gun that chemically castrates a sexual assailant

Maybe have an antidote only available at hospitals after the asshole turns himself in, just in case an innocent person has been hit (and meaning the person then has to admit their crime to get help).

I mean, how is that worse that "open carry" of Glock 9 mm guns here in the US? At least if I "shoot" the wrong assailant with a dart gun like this--which is unlikely--he's only castrated, instead of dead.

We are WAY too soft on sexual assault--boys are just being boys and can't help themselves and she provoked him or he had a terrible childhood or was pressured into it by his male friends. If 5% of men who do this shit were castrated or had their penises cut off in that nice intravaginal clamping device developed by that female South African doctor we'd see this kind of crime go way, way down.

Call me a fascist. I don't care.

[niyad]

20. for some time, there were sprays that, if a woman was actually able to use it, would

scent the rapist with skunk spray. there were also bracelets that, if punctured, would spray the rapist with dye.

I like your idea MUCH better.

[zazen]

24. well, maybe they can be put back into commission?

At least something to permanently mark them for a week or two. Social media being what it is, it'd be hard to hide.

Of course, it's so hard to know as a female if you're about to be targeted until you are, and these don't really work as well in situations of date and marital rape because there's usually so much psychological coercion (and often drugs) involved as well.

But for "stranger" situations of groping all the way to sexual assault--if it could be designed to be easily discharged without the victim having to maneuver it a lot, that'd be helpful. I don't think a lot of women are going to go around spraying innocent strangers with dye unless they're willing to testify against them in court so I don't see it being abused by women.

[niyad]

25. you made several excellent points. I wasn't aware, at the time, of anybody saying

that women would go around randomly spraying people. however, given today's culture, that probably would be one of the arguments from the mra's against such things.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

28. Can't string 'em up by the nuts, dammit. nt

[niyad]

30. would certainly cut down on the recidivism.

[hifiguy]

32. Skunk spray is also a very powerful irritant

to the eyes. That would put a hitch in some asshole's git-along real good. Blind as a bat and smelling like roadkill skunk.

[niyad]

36. I don't know if it is still on the market.

[eppur_se_muova]

39. Butanethiol -- available from most chemical mfgrs.

Maybe some friendly chemists need to distribute it on the grey market.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butanethiol#Uses

[niyad]

230. thank you for this information!!

[katsy]

21. I totally agree

penalties for all sexual assaults should be far more severe than exist at this time.

I mean mandatory jail time. Life destroying sentences. Mandatory curfews. Monitoring. The mental anguish and emotional suffering of rape victims demands nothing less. Sexual assault and rape is a hate crime. Men who make laws have been (wink wink) fucking with us and its time that the punishment really fits the crime.

[JudyM]

23. Wonder if that exists. Great idea. And more sane self defense than a gun.

[smirkymonkey]

88. Hear, hear!

[BlueJazz]

35. I predict there is going to be a huge backlash against the foreigners. These men will keep..

...with their little "game" until it becomes a death sentence. Me thinks they have forgotten that they are vastly outnumbered.

[sibelian]

94. Yes, that is a very obvious and very DANGEROUS potential consequence.

If the PTB don't sort this out other people will take it on themselves to do so.

[betterdemsonly]

49. the India times is a hindu nationalist rag that has been in trouble for inciting

antimuslim mob murders.

What's with the Donald Trump invasion? Why isn't it being mirted or juried?

[JackintheGreen]

77. Thank you for this!

I was about to point this out myself.

While Taharrush is a real thing (people have mentioned Lara Logan already, but I also first became aware of the phenomenon watching Arab Spring coverage on Al Jazeera), the characterization of it a a "rape game" seems like a willful mistranslation/faux amis of the Arabic to incite anti-Muslim sentiment among a right-wing Hindu readership.

Which is NOT to suggest that taharrush is "legitimate cultural practice" that deserves respect and/or relativistic understanding.

And as an American having lived in South Asia for a long time, India needs to shut the fuck up with the holier than thou tone about other nations' sexual harassment/rape problems.

[honeylady]

50. This is only going to embolden the wingnuts.

Every decent Muslin anywhere and everywhere should condemn this horrible thing. This is what happened to the CBS reporter in Egypt. Sorry, her name eludes me. This is going to fuel anti Muslim sentiments. I'm the most open minded, tolerant, non-prejudicial person I know, and I'm starting to be anti-Muslim. God this makes me sad. Truly.

[Jim Beard]

52. Her name is Lara Logan

[Kelvin Mace]

51. Why are we accepting as gospel

a story in an anti-Muslim newspaper.

Seriously folks, some critical thinking.

[mwrguy]

53. Because it reinforces preconceived notions of Muslims

And gives an excuse to let out bottled up racism.

[Jim Beard]

54. It is a video of a woman being raped in a gang fashion

Should I call CBS and ask for the footage of Lara Logan being raped the same way because it happened.

Is CBS biased?

NO

I read many of the the reader comments at the end of several articles and they did not seem radical to me.

There were some anti Muslim because if the sect that encourages violence.

Do you support the the violence reported by the The India Time and articles supported by the readers?

[Kelvin Mace]

55. I don't question a woman was raped

just that it is an organized "game" which conviently plays into a narrative of Muslims as sub-human monsters.

Why would I support any violence against women?

[Dems to Win]

56. How about the BBC

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35280386

'

Taharrush'
Monday's report into the attacks in Cologne says that the combination of group sexual violence with robbery had not previously been seen in Germany.
It notes that similar crimes took place in other parts of Germany on 31 December, including in Hamburg.
The report describes a modus operandi known as "taharrush gamea" in Arabic, meaning group sexual harassment in crowds, and compares it to incidents reported in Cairo's Tahrir Square at the time of the Egyptian revolution.
Sex attacks on Tahrir Square
A joint federal and state working group has been set up to examine the phenomenon and how to combat it.

[Kelvin Mace]

81. I would suggest

this link for context:

http://www.snopes.com/2016/01/11/refugees-new-years-eve/

[Jim Beard]

82. Snopes.com needs to stick and discontinue the speculation.

[Kelvin Mace]

103. I rarely find Snopes in error in their fact checking

and analysis of events, which is more than I can say for the media and this board.

[sibelian]

126. Well, you can in this case.

They are out of date.

[Kelvin Mace]

139. Really,

the news stories linked to dated from 1/11, as did the Snopes post.

[sibelian]

140. The Cologne attacks are reasonably well characterised.

The snopes article is very poor in detail. There is media all over the place detailing these attacks. Dismissing all of it in favour of snopes is tendentious in the extreme.

No, I'm NOT going to accept these media as being "untrustworthy" in relation to snopes because they're "anti-Muslim", not after Rotherham. I've known many ordinary people in London who describe the attitude of integration-averse Muslims, who form a significant subsection of the otherwise largely integration-positive Muslim populace, the distinction between the two groupings largely determinable by their nation of origin's ability to absorb a Western-based model of secularism. Assaults are common, misogyny is commonplace.

Snopes is American. I see no reason why they should be expected to know anything about Cologne, Hamburg, Helsinki, etc.

[Kelvin Mace]

146. Perhaps you can provide links to reliable media stories

Snopes is considered reliable because it does things like actually research stories, talk to reporters, links to official reports.

I do not doubt your experience in your conversations with people, but please understand, that is anecdotal evidence, not empirical.

I hate to break it to you, but we have Americans who are "integration-averse". They refuse to adjust their behavior to the culture and laws that currently exist, and are openly hostile to people who do not follow their political philosophy/religion. They are openly misogynistic, racist and homophobic.

As an atheist I have very little use for any religion, and have found immoral/unethical and just downright vile behavior among all of them.

[sibelian]

155. Yes, Kelvin, no doubt there are problems with the American social landscape, they are not comparable

to Islamic nations run by fundamentalists.

I am becoming increasingly frustrated with the myopic, grimly disinterested attitude of certain people in the Western liberal media regarding this.

Here, try the GUARDIAN, if you don;t like the rest of those sources:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/08/ive-never-experienced-anything-like-that-cologne-in-deep-shock-over-attacks

The Guardian's coverage was particularly poor, actually, but at least they made some attempt to talk to the people involved rather than just make crap up.

Concert goers on their way to the traditional New Year’s Eve concert in the Philharmonie told the Kölnische Rundschau the mayhem had started as early as 5.30pm when young, clearly drunk men, who according to eyewitnesses spoke mostly Arabic and French, gathered on the steps of the cathedral, and began throwing bottles and setting off fireworks into the crowds. By the time people spilled out of the concert around three hours later and tried to get back to the station, the mood had grown considerably more aggressive.

Here is an article on Hamburg...needs translation...Google translate is your friend...

http://www.bild.de/regional/hamburg/sexuelle-belaestigung/auf-der-reeperbahn-44017940.bild.html

Here is the MIRROR, not very well known Stateside, as left as it gets...

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/cologne-sex-attacks-two-suspects-7140591

More from euronews...

http://www.euronews.com/2016/01/08/finnish-police-tipped-off-about-new-year-sex-attacks-by-asylum-seekers/

2 Iraqis mentioned in that one.

More on Helsinki...

http://hotair.com/archives/2016/01/08/finnish-police-there-was-unprecedented-sexual-harassment-by-asylum-seekers-in-helsinki-on-nye-too/

Helsinki deputy police chief Ilkka Koskimaki told AFP: “There hasn’t been this kind of harassment on previous New Year’s Eves or other occasions for that matter… This is a completely new phenomenon in Helsinki.”

Security guards hired to patrol the city on New Year’s Eve told police there had been “widespread sexual harassment” at a central square where around 20,000 people had gathered for celebrations.

Three sexual assaults allegedly took place at Helsinki’s central railway station on New Year’s Eve, where around 1,000 mostly Iraqi asylum seekers had converged…

“Ahead of New Year’s Eve, the police caught wind of information that asylum seekers in the capital region possibly had similar plans to what the men gathered in Cologne’s railway station have been reported to have had,” police said in a statement.

So. What do you want to call all of this?

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

194. Snopes is not a reliable source

They do have a liberal bent, but so are many who are throwing German women under the bus.

It's run by a married couple with no oversight.

[Dems to Win]

57. OP has been updated with a link from Die Welt (German) nt

[Kelvin Mace]

65. Well, I don't speak German

but I do remember that it is a conservative paper from discussions with my Swiss relatives.

[Aerows]

58. I eagerly await the return of yourself and

mwrguy to give comments now that it has been confirmed by several news outlets.

[Kelvin Mace]

63. And the media is never wrong

You know, like how we all died in the ebola epidemic?

[Aerows]

64. Oh, so you don't want

to address the fact that several credible news sources were posted and then you decided to deflect rather than address your original criticism?

Right, right, gotcha.

[Kelvin Mace]

66. Got any links?

[Aerows]

67. I was waiting on you

since you were the one making the claims. That's usually how it works.

[Kelvin Mace]

68. I have seen two links

For this story: One from an Indian newspaper which has no love for Muslims, and in German from a conservative newspaper. I stated that I didn't consider these sources reliable and you tell me their are other media outlets reporting the story. How should I know who you are talking about?

[Aerows]

69. Did you or did you not upthread

state that you don't speak German?

Because all of the sudden, you are claiming Die Welt is a conservative newspaper (which in Germany is completely different than a conservative American newspaper). How did you arrive at that conclusion that there was conservative "spin" if you don't speak German?

Second, is the BBC not good enough for you, either? A link was posted to their article up thread, and lucky for you, they do speak English. Want to check them out and get back to me? I'll wait.

[Kelvin Mace]

72. I said I didn't, but I understand it to be a conservative paper

based on conversation with my Swiss relatives who do. I say that right in my post.

I did not see the BBC link, but I just looked the issue up and found a story from five days ago reporting that some people in Westphalia goverment are claiming that the attacks are part of a North African practice called "taharrush gamea", which actually was a tactic used by the Egyptian police on female protestors during the uprising.

Other than that one BBC story, all the rest are from the usual unreliable sources: Daily Caller, The Blaze, Brietbart News, The Daily Mail, etc.

Sorry, but those are not reliable sources. If you have links, then by all means please share. To me, this has the earmarks of anti-immigrant hysteria stirred up by the usual media suspects.

Snopes.com, a VERY reliable source has a more measured take on the situation.

http://www.snopes.com/2016/01/11/refugees-new-years-eve/

[Aerows]

74. Oh, sudden Swiss relatives.

I'm sure you have those on speed dial.

BBC is not a reliable source. Die Welt is not a reliable source because you can't read German but relatives in Switzerland, that you called immediately, confirmed that it was a conservative news site, said that it was.

Alright. You are appropriately and judiciously dubious. I'll keep that in mind, cher.

[Kelvin Mace]

79. Where did I say the BBC was unreliable?

The Beeb story doesnt make the claims in the OP.

If you wish to call me a liar, then be upfront about. If I were to lie, why wouldn't I just claim to have German relatives?

I also did not claim to have phoned the relatives tonight. I have had discussions in the past with my aunt who lives in Muralto, who does speak German, as well as French, Italian, and English. We have discussed Swiss politics and the reactions there to refugees, as my cousin adopted two children from Somalia. The issue has come up due to some recent anti-Burqa laws passed recently by the cantonese government of Ticino.

You seem quite determined to misread everything I write, so I guess we are done.

[uppityperson]

75. I missed the "credible news sources", would you be so kind as to point them out?

Thank you Aerows.

[Aerows]

76. Die Welt and BBC

Unless you, along with Kelvin Mace, also cannot read English or German.

[uppityperson]

86. I don't read German but he said his relatives said Die Welt was a conservative source.

I was given a BBC link by someone else so no need for your to copy paste it for me. Thank you for trying to help clarify what you meant by "several credible news sources".

[DFW]

216. I read German and live in Germany

"Conservative" paper by German standards would be about the level of the Washington Post. Germany is one of the few countries that still has restrictions of free speech laws, namely anything that reeks of Nazi propaganda is forbidden. Not even Fox was given a license to broadcast there. I read the "Welt" article, and it was pretty dry and non-judgmental.

[uppityperson]

221. Thank you.

[Kelvin Mace]

80. Please do read the BBC story

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35280386

And this one at snopes:

http://www.snopes.com/2016/01/11/refugees-new-years-eve/

Aerows seems to have trouble with concept that people have relatives in other countries who can speak other languages and they sometimes discuss politics.

[uppityperson]

85. Thank you for the link. Sexual assault is horrible, but....

Justice Minister Heiko Maas condemned those attacks, saying: "As abominable as the crimes in Cologne and other cities were, one thing remains clear: there is no justification for blanket agitation against foreigners."
He said it appeared that some people "appear just to have been waiting for the events of Cologne".
Mrs Merkel's spokesman Steffen Seibert said "nothing excuses" retaliatory assaults on immigrants.

[uppityperson]

60. Snopes says street harassment & sexual assaults are nothing new, not due to refugees

http://www.snopes.com/2016/01/11/refugees-new-years-eve/

(clip)
While it's possible that all of the attackers were, indeed, immigrants or asylum-seekers, the everyday atmosphere in Cologne (and other German cities) might suggest otherwise. One activist told German news outlet Deutsche Welle that women have been putting up with street harassment and sexual assaults since long before the refugee crisis began:

"Because refugees are now a burning topic, the media all of a sudden report about these events, but what nobody wants to admit is that these things happen all the time. I'm sorry to break this to you, but German-born men also harass and rape."

Incidents of anti-refugee violence (and "human hunts&quot are already brewing in Germany as a direct result of the New Year's events, despite pleas from the government to not jump to conclusions until the investigation is complete. Germany's Justice Minister Heiko Maas told the press that "some people appear just to have been waiting for the events of Cologne," adding:

As abominable as the crimes in Cologne and other cities were, one thing remains clear: there is no justification for blanket agitation against foreigners.

[Kelvin Mace]

62. Thanks,

I forgot to check Snopes.

[sibelian]

119. Snopes is out of date.

Police reports have already identified some numbers of the attackers, their origin and their ethnicity. Refugees, not necessarily MIGRANTS, yes. Mobile phones stolen at the scenes of these crimes have now been found in refugee camps.

[uppityperson]

122. Weren't they Algerians and Moroccans, immigrants, not refugees?

I've not been following it closely. Thanks.

[sibelian]

125. Not clear yet, a chunk of them are from Morocco, Tunisia and Algeria.

it's certainly no longer possible to claim that attributions of these attackers ethnic identities is emergent from racism. The attributions were largely true.

I think it may be worth be pointing out that very few of us in Europe who want closer control of this kind of mass immigration have been making claims that these migrants are from Syria, most of the comments from the "anti-immigration crowd" I've seen from the beginning have correctly identified these attackers as being North African. Different continent. Much of this input has been derided as racism (admittedly by a vanishingly small few) from people assuming that we think they are from Syria.

I'm in the UK, Muslim integration as a whole isn't a problem, it's the integration of nationals from certain Islamic nations, and typically it's nations where fundamentalist Islam is strong. Isis is strong in Tunisia.

http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/dramatic-rise-islamic-state-tunisia-2003908909

From that article:

Tunisia has contributed about 3,000 fighters to the war in Syria and Iraq. Less well known is the fact that the Tunisian interior ministry says it has prevented a further 12,490 people from joining the conflict. While that figure has been disputed, it offers a yardstick of the groundswell of resentment that the Tunisian state is facing.

[pnwmom]

153. Here's something from the BBC:

Of 19 suspects, 10 are applying for asylum, and nine of those arrived since September, 2015.

Of course, this is a small fraction of the hundreds of men involved. The police were overwhelmed.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35280386

[pnwmom]

149. I think Snopes might need to update its statement. The scale of what happened

on New Years is what made it significantly different.

Yes, German men do harass and rape. But not in groups of hundreds in the same place.

[sibelian]

97. The same stories are available all over the place.

It's not just this paper.

[Kelvin Mace]

105. Yes, and the sources are equally unreliable

RT.com (Pravda's successor), The Daily Caller, Breitbart News, The Blaze, The Daily Mail, and dozens of little Anti-Muslim sites.

The best sane analysis can be found at Snopes:

http://www.snopes.com/2016/01/11/refugees-new-years-eve/

[sibelian]

131. I think Snopes has just lost me.

Last edited Mon Jan 18, 2016, 06:05 PM - Edit history (1)

This is exactly what EDIT: certain OTHER people tried to do with Rotherham.

[Kelvin Mace]

143. Snopes "lost" you? Why?

Because their research doesn't agree with what people posted here.

I just checked again on the phrase "taharrush gamea" and I still only see links to the same anti-immigrant, anti-Muslim sites:

Breirtbart.com
RT.com
DailyCaller.com
MailOnline.com (Daily Mail, a Rupert Murdoch paper).
The Blaze.com (Glen Beck)
BusinessInsider.com (conservative business paper)
IndiaTimes.com (the newspaper of record for the country with its own very bad rape problem and non love for Muslims)

And numerous rightwing blogs.

So, again, not reliable/unbiased sources reporting on a "story" that fits their agenda of Muslims/Refugees are evil and must be stopped.

If anyone committed sexual assault, then they should be arrested and tried, and if convicted punished. But that should happen to ANYONE who commits such a vile crime: Catholic priests, televangelists, celebrities, sports figures, politicians, police officers, diplomats, university professors, etc. Not used as an excuse to smear an entire class of people as subhuman and deny them shelter from war.

[sibelian]

144. They are NOT being denied shelter from war, they DON'T come from a WARZONE.

MOROCCO. TUNISIA. ALGERIA. Not Syria.

OPPORTUNISTS taking advantage of the humanitarian desire to provide shelter to those who are fleeing a warzone. Economic migrants. Hence the need for stricter immigration control.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taharrush_gamea

Up for deletion, ha ha. Second link down on Google.

Here's the deletion conversation on Wikipedia. Worth reading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Taharrush_gamea#.23

[Kelvin Mace]

152. Wikipedia, while useful

is not considered authoritative, since, you know, ANYONE can post anything on it. Controversial topics such as this require particular care since it is the first stop for extremists with an axe to grind.

Sorry, I will wait to see what the facts are, not the allegations. It is called "due process", and we abandon it at our peril.

[sibelian]

157. Due process is WELL under way and has ALREADY ESTABLISHED that a large number of these men

were of Arabic origin. It is also well understood that the kinds of attacks being described are unique and not comparable to other extant forms of sexual harassment or abuse already known within the countries inn which these attacks took place. Please stop playing games with me, Kelvin, there is no denying this any more. How many more newspapers have to be wrong? How may more links do you want me to go and get for you? Everyone in europe already knows what's happened, frankly you're starting to sound like a conspiracy theorist yourself. Of course the left wing media's going to want to avoid reporting it, they're every bit as biased as the right, also the vast majority of the left wing media in Europe has spent years telling us all not to say anything about immigrants, if they publish the true extent of this phenomenon they are going to look stupid. It's all face-saving.

If you want me to go and get the three sequential Guardian opinion pieces which demonstrate beautifully how badly they climbed down from their initial stance to their most recent stance, all as a result of the thoroughly panned puff-piece from Gaby Hinsliffe about "hard questions" which she then refuses to ask, I will do so, but I really wish you'd do it yourself. Their position morphs visibly in front of your eyes, practically. It's obvious that they are far more frightened of looking stupid than women being sexually assaulted.

They can no longer be relied on to tell the truth. KATIE HOPKINS in the TELEGRAPH was more reasonable than Gaby Hinsliffe! How do you think I felt about that? Not Pleased I Can Tell You.

If the problem is ignored and reasonable measures not put in place, extremist ones will simply emerge. Germany's already had to arrest 200 hard-right anti-immigration fanatics following disturbances considered to be a response to Cologne:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/12/german-police-arrest-211-after-far-right-riot-in-leipzig

[Kelvin Mace]

167. I was not aware that a trial had taken place

and the that testimony and documents had been provided under oath. THAT is "due process", not opinion pieces in the newspaper, or inflammatory accusations on rightwing web sites run by Glen Beck and his ilk.

Again, please provide a link to a newspaper covering this that has some degree of credibility. Oh, and by the way, an "opinion piece" is just that, opinion.

I am not "playing" with you, I am standing up for due process and against rushes to judgment in the absence of evidence. Due process applies to everyone or no one. It cannot be chucked away when inconvenient or counter to our opinions.

(BTW The Telegraph is also a conservative newspaper. It's most recent work was smearing the head of the SNP in order to sabotage the Scottish Independence referendum).

You cite the arrest of 211 hard right extremists as evidence of the validity of this story, I do not understand why.

You also rail against "the left wing media". Are you sure you are on the right web site?

[sibelian]

172. Kelvin...

We do not need a trial to know the ethnic identities of of these suspects. They've been arrested. And I am not going to wait for trials to tell me that these men really did abuse these women. Newspapers both left and right of the spectrum have been reporting on this in Europe since the beginning, although the left-leaning papers took a very long time to start taking it seriously. (One of Deborah Orr's pieces began with the phrase "oh dear, it's leftageddon" and started spraffing off as if she was in the pub). This is NOT some right wing conspiracy that's burst into the European media. I don't care what you think about Glenn sodding Beck, this has got nothing to do with him. That he now has poo to fling about isn't my problem, my problem is that I live on a continent run by politicians who think rape is a political football whose bounciness and/or flaccidity depends on the ethnicity of the rapist. As far as I'm concerned that's Utterly Fucking Nuts. How YOUR nation (I assume you're American?) handles the narrative is not relevant to me. This is not "black box" "He said, she said" rape. There are MULTIPLE eyewitness testimonies of something that happened in public. I will not bandy words with you as if this is a dramatic presentation on HBO.

It's the SNOPES article that's an opinion piece, OK? I'm not going to get you any more links, I've already given you plenty elsewhere in the thread.

"rushes to judgement in the absence of evidence" As stated, we already know the nationality of a substantial number of the attackers - they are in custody. THAT is also due process.

(BTW The Telegraph is also a conservative newspaper. It's most recent work was smearing the head of the SNP in order to sabotage the Scottish Independence referendum).

No kidding! I presume you must know that I live in Scotland and voted for indpendence, of course I'm not unaware of the Telegraph and their endless befuddlement over Sturgeon and the SNP, this does not change the stark contrast in tone between Hopkins and Hinsliffe's recent contributions. I did actually post Hinsliffe's article in GD recently, I don't know if you saw that. It was rape apologist drivel, basically, and was widely slammed for the same in the comments section, which I asked DU to read. I do NOT want a world in which Katie bloody Hopkins makes more sense than the Guardian. Unfortunately that's the one I seem to be being asked to live in.

b]You cite the arrest of 211 hard right extremists as evidence of the validity of this story, I do not understand why.

No I did not post that story as evidence for the validity of the term under discussion in this thread, I posted that link as an illustration of the problems likely to arise if the phenomenon isn't recognised and dealt with, as anyone with basic reading comprehension skills could easily discern for themselves by reading my post. I would also like this problem to be dealt with, I should add, by people willing to treat it as a problem faced by a real society with real people in it that matter rather than an opportunity to publically display one's political persuasion. It's got nothing to do with the right wing UNTIL we leave it to fester to the extent that the entire populace of Europe, left AND right abandon the virtue-signalling problem-ignoring left to it's metropolitan bubble and its own devices and votes for conservatives for the next five generations. That's the second thing I don't want.

The FIRST thing I don't want is a whole bunch of feckless, obnoxious teenaged neds from ALGERIA and TUNISIA using SYRIAN suffering as a backdoor to publically molesting my next-door neighbour at the next Edinburgh Festival because she's well-dressed and currently single. I LIKE my next-door neighbour. She feeds my cats when I'm on holiday and encourages me in my self-employed aspirations. She's my friend. Also, I don't think she deserves it.

Did you read any of the news links I posted in response to you elsewhere in this thread?

[Kelvin Mace]

205. Sibelian,

First let me offer my thanks for your efforts to engage with me in detail on this issue. I wish to state right off that I become greatly concerned when threads such as this start heating up, as in the absence of an actual voice and facial cues, it is easy to misunderstand someone's "tone", especially if they are incautious with their words.

Since I have not been as cautious as decorum demands, I will apologize for causing offense.

I will now try to address your points and explain my position:

We do not need a trial to know the ethnic identities of of these suspects. They've been arrested. And I am not going to wait for trials to tell me that these men really did abuse these women.

You may not require a trial, but I do, since many accusations and assertions are made which can later turn out to be mistaken or flat out lies.

I live in the U.S., in the South, and a person of "Arabic" appearance to folks around here (including the police) is anyone with dark hair, brown eyes and dark hair. I have routinely seen Jews of various nationalities (including US), Sikhs, Turks, Greeks, and even Latinos called "Muslims/Arabic"

That women were abused is not in dispute. Who the men are has yet to be ascertained, and I assume charges will be filed when all evidence and testimony is collected. Ascribing specific behavior to an entire group of people is unwise and unjust. If this accusation is going to be leveled broadly, then the burden of proof must be met.

my problem is that I live on a continent run by politicians who think rape is a political football whose bounciness and/or flaccidity depends on the ethnicity of the rapist. As far as I'm concerned that's Utterly Fucking Nuts.

On that view, I completely concur. Rape is unacceptable now matter who commits it and it should be vigorously prosecuted and punished without regard to perpetrator's race, religion, ethnicity, celebrity, political connection, wealth, etc.

Sadly, that is seldom the case.

This is not "black box" "He said, she said" rape. There are MULTIPLE eyewitness testimonies of something that happened in public.

Again, I do not contest this. What I question is the narrative that this was an organized/planned action. That a group of Muslim men sat down, decided that in cities across Europe they were going to go around a rape women. I can certainly believe that large groups of men, such as would congregate in formidable numbers for a holiday celebration, who find themselves intoxicated and in a place where police presence is thin to non-existent, do behave in a vile manner. Mobs, especially ones that are drunk, are ugly, unpredictable, and violent. I have had my run-ins with them over the years and have the scars, physical and mental. (NONE of these circumstances "excuse" violence and I do not view intoxication as "mitigating" in ANY way).

I presume you must know that I live in Scotland and voted for indpendence, of course I'm not unaware of the Telegraph and their endless befuddlement over Sturgeon and the SNP.

Actually, I didn't, or I would have not mentioned it. I did look at your profile, but did not see your nationality listed.

I did actually post Hinsliffe's article in GD recently, I don't know if you saw that. It was rape apologist drivel, basically, and was widely slammed for the same in the comments section, which I asked DU to read. I do NOT want a world in which Katie bloody Hopkins makes more sense than the Guardian. Unfortunately that's the one I seem to be being asked to live in.

No, I didn't see the post, so if you have a link, I would appreciate it. And I agree, there is NEVER an excuse for rape and I am greatly vexed to hear the usual bullshit trotted out to "explain" it by the usual suspects. So, no, I am not going to offer up the "not all men" defense since the truth is "too many damned men" for any number of men greater than zero.

No I did not post that story as evidence for the validity of the term under discussion in this thread, I posted that link as an illustration of the problems likely to arise if the phenomenon isn't recognised and dealt with, as anyone with basic reading comprehension skills could easily discern for themselves by reading my post.

Then I must apologize for my lack of basic reading comprehension, as the point eluded me, hence my expression of perplexity.

It's got nothing to do with the right wing UNTIL we leave it to fester to the extent that the entire populace of Europe, left AND right abandon the virtue-signalling problem-ignoring left to it's metropolitan bubble and its own devices and votes for conservatives for the next five generations. That's the second thing I don't want.

True, it is not a problem specific to any political view, just 50% of the population, give or take.

The FIRST thing I don't want is a whole bunch of feckless, obnoxious teenaged neds from ALGERIA and TUNISIA using SYRIAN suffering as a backdoor to publically molesting my next-door neighbour at the next Edinburgh Festival because she's well-dressed and currently single.

And I agree but would also say that I do not wish that fate to befall her (or you, or any woman) at the hands of any man, regardless of country of origin.

I LIKE my next-door neighbour. She feeds my cats when I'm on holiday and encourages me in my self-employed aspirations. She's my friend. Also, I don't think she deserves it.

No one does. And people who will feed your cats and encourage your career are to be especially appreciated. (No snark, I have a cat and three dogs, all rescues, so I can grok a good pet sitter

Did you read any of the news links I posted in response to you elsewhere in this thread?

I would point out that there are something like 200 posts in this thread and I am now combing back through for what I have missed. I have found The Guardian article and will read it tonight. Are there any others?

To recap, I do not in any way doubt that assaults took place, nor do I excuse in any way anyone guilty of such behavior. That said, I am also opposed to witch hunts, as I have seen a few in my day that utterly destroyed innocent people. I am NOT accusing you of being part of a witch hunt, nor anyone else. I am simply cautioning people to wait until we have the whole story, or at least a lot more of it than we do know.

I know that annoys the hell out of some people who are certain of guilt. But in my defense, I am just the kind of person you want on a jury if you are ever unjustly accused of a crime.



Good evening, and thank you for your time.

[Yo_Mama]

186. The Cologne police have released their official inventory of the crimes that night.

There are well over 650 victims and over 750 criminal offenses.

Newspapers were commenting. This happened. The internal reports and accounts of police on the scene that night say it happened. Multiple refugees who were in the crowd that night say it happened.

Your position makes no sense. It's obvious that you can't deal with the reality that this happened.

And no, this is not a normal thing in Germany, or in fact in any western nation.

[Kelvin Mace]

195. Right, and a police report is now conclusive proof

of guilt of an entire populace?

Fox News and the St. Louis police will be delighted to know.

By the way, how do those numbers compare to other New Years Eves in Cologne when the police failed to deploy sufficient officers on a major holiday in which drugs, drinking and rowdy behaviour is expected? Also, could you please provide a source for your numbers?

According to the State Department, 5,961,662 criminal offenses were committed in Germany in 2013. That means on any given day in Germany 16,333 criminals acts occur.

https://www.osac.gov/pages/ContentReportDetails.aspx?cid=17094

If we take the number of criminal acts, divide by the population of Germany, extrapolate those figures to the population of Cologne (1,000,0000) we get about 203 criminal acts on an average day. New Years' Eve is not an average day.

Also, "criminal offenses" cover everything from murder to public drunkeness.

Numbers without context are meaningless.

I deal with reality quite well, I don't allow myself to be swayed by fear-mongering. Fearful people are easily manipulated, which is a lesson you would think we would have learned by now.

[Yo_Mama]

206. Well, since you refuse German sources, and only German sources report in this level of detail

I think you've constructed yourself an ironclad wall against the truth.

But most people won't want to live in it.

You could always try translate.google.de

Hamburg:
http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/fluechtlingskrise/uebergriffe-in-silvesternacht-hamburg-ermittelt-gegen-acht-tatverdaechtige-14015202.html

Refugees speaking of what they saw in Koeln:
http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/fluechtlingskrise/fluechtlinge-sprechen-ueber-koeln-es-war-wie-auf-dem-viehmarkt-14012173.html

Clearly part of the rightwing conspiracy.

Syrian refugees who helped a woman who was attacked in Koeln (the rightwing conspiracy is everywhere!!!) I found this one in English for you:
http://www.dw.com/en/how-syrian-refugees-helped-an-american-student-during-the-cologne-attacks/a-18985740


The police list, 676 reports, etc:
http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/silvesternacht-in-koeln-hatten-die-taten-system-14017964.html

[Kelvin Mace]

208. I did not "refuse" German sources

I "refused" sources written in German, a language which I do not speak, since I cannot, you know, read German.

Also, I am not going to trust an article imperfectly translated by software.

I have read numerous accounts and I am certainly sure that attacks happened, but I do not accept that these attack were "planned/coordinated" without compelling evidence. I also refuse to ascribe to an entire nation/sect of people criminal behavior committed by a few. Have we learned nothing from press coverage of the Black Lives Matter and the Occupy Movement?

Have we not learned that "official reports" must be scrutinized? According to "official reports" every unarmed Black person killed by police was heavily armed, on drugs, trying to steal the officer's gun and part of the Black Panthers.

Reading through the one English language German source you provide, I find these salient point:

But she soon found herself alone in a terrifying situation when, shortly after being separated from him, someone grabbed her hat from her head, while others started touching her inappropriately.

This type of behavior happens in this country every day. That doesn't make it acceptable, it isn't, but it also is in no way unique.

But the police outside weren't much use. Overwhelmed by the mass of people in the main square in front of the station and trying to keep the situation under control, the authorities ended up forcing Duncan back into the crowd.

The police badly underestimate and mishandle a mob, making a bad situation worse. Again, hardly unique to Germany.

Unbeknownst to the American at the time, she was caught up in an event that would make headlines around the world and throw intense scrutiny on Chancellor Angela Merkel's refugee policies in Germany. Hundreds of women reported being assaulted around the train station that night, mostly by men who appeared to be of North African or Arab descent.

Reported by who? Oh, I am sure women reported being assaulted, but who provided the numbers to the paper? What official? What agency? Can they provide the reports to back up the claim of "hundreds"?

While the media coverage of that night shed light on many horrifying episodes, it also had the effect of obscuring some of the more positive developments. Duncan's experience is one such example.

Around that time, a young Middle Eastern man came up to her and asked, in German, if he could help her. Since she didn't speak German and he didn't speak English, the man called over one of his friends, Hesham Ahmad Mohammad, who did speak English.

A 32-year-old former teacher, Ahmad Mohammad had, along with his four friends, braved an arduous journey from his native Syria to reach Germany, where he had been living for six months. The trek had taken the group to Turkey, then to Greece by boat, then through Macedonia, Serbia, Hungary and Austria, until finally they reached the Bavarian city of Passau.

The five men, all of whom now lived in different parts of western Germany and had therefore not seen each other since their arrival, had chosen to reunite in Cologne for New Year's Eve. But what they saw when they arrived at the central station shocked them. The people were extremely rowdy, Ahmad Mohammad said, and he even witnessed an attempted robbery.

"We knew [shortly after we arrived] that that's a dangerous place for us, because we saw that many people were drinking and they lost their minds," he told DW.

Gosh, a huge mob of drunk men are dangerous. Que surprise!

And yet, the "Arabic looking" men stepped into help the woman in danger.

When he and his friends came across Duncan, he said the American was crying and clearly "afraid of all men."

After a while he convinced Duncan to let them help her. "At that time she said to me, ‘I've lost my friend and I am alone. I am American. I am here alone.' I said to her, ‘You must stop crying. We can help you.'"

As she set out once more to find her boyfriend, Ahmad Mohammad accompanied her. He said ten other men attempted to harass her, but he shielded her from them. Soon, his other friends also came to her aid, forming a circle around her.

Afraid of all men, not just ones from North Africa. And again, the "Arabic looking" man came to her aid, with his friends.

The subsequent reunion between Duncan and her boyfriend was joyous, he said. The Syrian men cried.

What monsters.

I do note that the German government is tossing out some Moroccans and Algerians. but that was ongoing before this and those governments have not been cooperative. Were the attackers all from those countries? I am guessing that among the mob were a significant number of German men, worse for the wear, looking for "harmless fun" at other people's expense.

Regardless, all should be found, tried, and if convicted punished.

[DFW]

217. You guess wrongly

None of the victims' statements even hint at a "significant number of German men" among their attackers. As one who has lived in the Rheinland area (Köln, Düsseldorf) for years and speaks fluent German, let me put this clearly: there has NEVER been a group of attacks on women in this form and on this scale in our area, not in the post-war era, anyway. This is not the way German men tick, as a whole. Since German women are generally liberated and used to their freedom, there is no reason for large mobs of German men to have an attitude that would cause them to participate in mass rape or harassment. Men in the countries of origin both squash women's liberation AND then get frustrated because they can't have normal interaction with them. That's their problem to deal with--at home. If they have the slightest intention of bringing this mentality with them, they should be sent right back to whence they came.

Of course the governments of the countries of origin are not "cooperative" in taking the bad apples back. Unskilled, unemployed, and with violent tendencies. They were happy to be rid of them in the first place.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

196. And Snopes is even less authoritative!

nt

[Kelvin Mace]

198. According to who?

I certainly hear the rightwing make this claim, since it debunks hundreds of conservative memes and conspiracy theories, but this is the first I have heard such on this board.

Snopes has been around over 20 years and has a stellar reputation for factual analysis.

So, I pray ask, what is your evidence that Snopes is less authoritative than the various sites "reporting" on this issue?

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

199. Tell me who runs Snopes

Who sits on their editorial board?

How many people work there? Who oversees their work?

How do they choose what to investigate?

Snopes is a liberal site, but "liberal" has all kinds of connotations these days.

What are their feminist credentials? Or are they more apt to support economic migrants to Germany and throw German women under the bus? Do the people behind Snopes realize how many of the men in Germany are not from an actual war zone? What is their knowledge base? Are they using the same sources that refused to report on the rapes of women and children committed by Muslim in Europe and UK for years?

EVERYONE has a bias, but for some reason we are to believe that the people behind Snopes do not and that they are the all-knowing, impartial god of the internet.

[Kelvin Mace]

207. Actually, I wouldn't characterize Snopes

as a "liberal" site (though many conservatives do, since as Colbert said, "Reality has a well known liberal bias&quot , I would characterize it as a "factual site" that makes its research and sources as transparent as possible.

As to who runs the site:

http://www.snopes.com/info/aboutus.asp

Snopes has an excellent track record over 20 years for excellent research. It is a husband and wife team who run it, with assistance from a number of scholars and journalists. They have no political agenda that I can discern.

If you want to know "their sources" then perhaps you should read what was written, as they meticulously document and link to those sources. I doubt anything I can say will convince you in the absence of examining it yourself.

http://www.snopes.com/2016/01/11/refugees-new-years-eve/

The person responsible for this article, Brooke Binkowski, is as respected journalist who has worked for American and Canadian organizations, such as The Christian Science Monitor, The Globe & Mail, and NPR.

[bemildred]

100. Classic propaganda, "Arab Rape Game".

I've been toying with the idea there is an organized campaign going on, you know the European right is on board with it.

[Kelvin Mace]

106. I am utterly devestated at how easily people on this board

are played and manipulated by anti-Muslim hysteria.

So much for the reality-based community.

[sibelian]

129. Presumably the recent protests in Cologne are all a big mistake then?

How many of these German women were lying?

[Kelvin Mace]

222. Nope, not accusing ANY woman of lying

I am sure attacks occurred. I want them all investigated and prosecuted.

[DFW]

218. Not anti-Muslim

We have millions of Turks in Germany, and they have been there for decades. They have not participated in this kind of behavior. Nor do the few Persians, Pakistanis, Kurds or Kosovars. They are all Muslim, and no one has accused them of being involved in the attacks--because, for the most part, they weren't.

[Kelvin Mace]

220. I am refering to the various news stories I am seeing that describe

what happened in Cologne as a Muslim/Arab game (yes, I know Muslim and Arab are to different things, but I have gotten tired of being shouted down when I try to point it out.

I am waiting to see what the investigation yields and am very skeptical of "thousands of {x group} involved in planned rapes coordinated on social media".

[DFW]

223. Point it out anyway

The Turkish population in German numbers in the millions, and most are very to completely assimilated. At this point, there are children and grandchildren of the original wave of Turks that came in the late fifties and early sixties. Plenty of them, at this point, speak better German than Turkish and have adopted the German secular way of life. They identify themselves as Muslim the way many Americans of Jewish ancestry identify themselves as "Jewish." It is their ancestry and their heritage, but many of them don't have any personal connection to the religion, the language, or the traditions, other than saying "oy!" instead of "geez!" There is no way in the world the resident Turkish population would even have contemplated this kind of atrocious attack, so just calling the attackers "Muslims" is misleading, like lumping peaceful Ecuadorian Catholics with the Ulster IRA.

As for the coordination, believe it. Take it from one who lives in the middle of all this This was not spontaneous. It is not in their DNA, it is learned. Learn some German and come see for yourself, if you can. If you are female or traveling with one, better learn how to say "Laa, shukhran" as well.

[pnwmom]

148. What is your basis for calling this an anti-Muslim newspaper? n/t

[Kelvin Mace]

156. IndiaTimes.com?

Other than the incredibly long history of animosity and violence between Hindus and Muslims, like the little wars involving India, Pakistan and Bangladesh?

Again, more telling is that this story is being propagated by a who's who of rightwing news and political web sites.

Seriously, do a search on Google for "taharrush gamea" and see who pops up.

As I have stated repeatedly, ANYONE guilty of assaulting ANYONE should be arrested, tried and if guilty, punished. I don't like shortcuts in due process or "guilt by association" trials in newspapers.

[pnwmom]

159. There is a 13% Muslim population in India which is similar to the percent

of African Americans in the U.S.

So this is like arguing that every newspaper in the US is anti-black.

Is that something you think, too?

[Kelvin Mace]

189. Um, no,

However, an alarming number are overtly, covertly, and ignorantly. I can find racism, sexism homophobia and a host of other bigotries in a goodly number of US newspapers selected at random.

the India Times story is quite inflammatory, and I cannot find any credible sources backing it up that isn't speculative, opinion, or unsubstantiated. The practice in question began with the Egyptian goverment to intimidate protestors. This is the kind of story we saw on Fox News during the Black Lives Matters coverage, a concerted effort to paint one group of people as criminals and thugs.

I have cited a credible source that this is way overblown and fueled by anti-refugee, anti-Muslim extremists bent on demonizing an entire group for actions of a few. Instead I am supposed to accept sources like rt.com, Brietbart, Glen Beck and Tucker Carlson as credible journalists.

As I have said, I want to see the hard evidence, not unsourced accounts. This may happen after the invesrigation is completed, charges are filed and a trial is held.

[randys1]

228. God DAMMIT, I was fooled again. You see I am on DU, I assume, and shouldnt,

garbage sources arent used here.

Got me again

I apologize for taking this thread and source seriously.

Thank YOU for the common sense I usually try and provide when it comes to sources

[Jesus Malverde]

61. Lora Logan

[Dems to Win]

70. article by Egyptian woman familiar with taharrush

Best article I've read on this topic

written by an Egyptian woman living in Germany for an Egyptian newspaper

http://www.dailynewsegypt.com/2016/01/13/arabs-sexual-harassment-in-germany-and-its-effect-on-merkels-plans/

[Marrah_G]

84. This was a very good article

Europe cannot let this behavior go unpunished. Immigrants must be told that such behavior is not allowed there. Perhaps there needs to be some sort of culture education required upon entering the countries.

This is a result of men being brought up in cultures where equality is not the norm. To be perfectly honest, I think it was a mistake to allow so many, especially single men, into Europe at one time. European women should not have to fear going out into the streets.

[Democat]

73. Many on DU will find a way to blame America

Or just deny it ever happened.

[Ex Lurker]

83. They already are. Look upthread NT

[Octafish]

90. Really. It's like America destabilized the region on purpose.

Who knew illegal, immoral, unnecessary and disastrous wars would do that?

[sibelian]

93. Maybe they did. Now what?

Let everyone in Europe get raped? It's their fault is it?

Can we maybe let go of the "Evil America" trope in these discussions, it's not really relevant. The world does have other bad guys, ya know.

[Octafish]

99. Is that what you think? That's not what I wrote.

Surprised to read your name attached to that, sibelian.

What I did write was that the warmongers who lied America into war are at fault.

Without the wars, the refugees would not be flooding out of the war torn region.

The wars remain because they are so profitable. Remember, Madeleine Albright thinks 500,000 dead Iraqi children were "worth it."

What should the USA do about it? Start acting like a Democracy, where we don't have to bomb people into doing what we want or giving us what we want.

What do you suggest we do?

[sibelian]

136. Octafish, the subject of the OP is male Islamic attitudes towards women.

The US did not train Muslim men to be misogynistic, however much instability the US may have found valuable to its interests, the US is not responsible.

The US can be considered a primary causative factor in a wide range of problems the Middle East faces, I do not see how Islam's long-standing and unchallenged misogyny is one of them. The religion is somewhat older than the United States.

[smirkymonkey]

210. Thank you for your very reasonable, well thought out posts.

Very much appreciated!

[EX500rider]

225. The US removes Hussein and destabilizes Iraq and that excuses Moroccan & Tunisian men for this?

Morocco is over 2,000 miles from Iraq and on a different continent.

[Dawson Leery]

78. k/r

[Sunlei]

102. what they did are crimes and the perps are charged with crimes. The worse will be deported.

[pnwmom]

150. The problem is that there were few police and hundreds of criminals.

The police were overwhelmed by the problem.

[Yo_Mama]

184. Most will never be caught and never be charged. The sexual charges

are thought mostly to be unconvictable and possibly won't even be charged.

http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/inland/ermittlungen-nach-koeln-ich-nehme-nicht-an-dass-die-taeter-verurteilt-werden-koennen-14020264.html

What that says is that while they have caught a few, and they do have ONE - only one - man currently in jail on a sexual charge, they do not expect convictions on the sex charges. The cell phone videos they got are mostly unusable for their purposes in court.

The ones they have in custody or charged (most of them are charged and released under German law) are pretty much those they caught with stolen cell phones and/or stolen property in raids.

Less than 30. There were hundreds.

They may, if they can catch them, get the ones who committed rape due to DNA - but it will be a long shot.

It is at this point very likely that no one will be convicted of a crime serious enough to rate deportation under German law. I have been reading this all over in comments from lawyers, but this is the first official news admission I have seen.

[DirkGently]

104. Smells like rightwing bullshit.

The "rape game?" Like "The knockout game?"

A new, Muslim-refugee-only thing that is suddenly sweeping ... rightwing news sites?

And is exactly like the Faux-news mythology about young black men everywhere beating random people, except with rape, and Muslims?

Really?

And the conclusion we're supposed to draw is that Muslim men generally are vicious subhumans who need to be profiled and tracked or whatever?

I think "racist rightwing bullshit" is the appropriate default assumption here.

[Kelvin Mace]

107. It absoutely is

and very shocking how many people are swallowing it.

[philosslayer]

115. Totally agree

And the speed at which many on DU are swallowing it is scary.

[sibelian]

127. How many more European cities have to undergo this stuff...

... before you believe their citizens?

[treestar]

147. Yes, interesting they copied the "knockout game"

thing they are always espousing to tell us about AA people.

[KingCharlemagne]

201. Bigotry, no matter what clothing it wears, is never pretty. This is Islamophobia. The Nazis

made similar claims about the Jews back in the 20s and 30s. And I hardly need mention the myths of black men raping while women here.

[Yo_Mama]

204. Deep in the land of denial, are we??? Let's go to Denmark.

Several Danish nightclubs close to the German border have instituted a language test:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3405167/Danish-nightclubs-demand-guests-speak-Danish-English-German-allowed-foreign-men-groups-attack-female-revellers.html?ITO=1490&ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=1490

Glenn Hollender, from the Sonderborg club, Den Flyvende Hollænder, told TV Syd last week: 'A large number of the male guests who come from the local asylum centre have a very hard time respecting the opposite sex.

'In my eyes, it is harassment when one or more men continue to touch a young woman after she has said "stop".'

Mine too.

There's an amusing or disturbing saga between the Copenhagen City Council and a Danish Muslim organization. A little controversy has erupted there:
January 10:
http://cphpost.dk/news/danish-muslim-youth-organisation-criticised-for-inviting-controversial-imam-to-speak-at-event.html

The Muslim youth organisation Muslimsk Ungdom i Danmark has attracted strong criticism for its decision to invite the controversial preacher Shahid Mehdi to speak at an event on Sunday, TV2 News reports.

Mehdi was quoted in 2004 as saying that women who don’t wear headscarves are in many ways themselves to blame if they are raped.
...
The event is being held at the premises of the Danish Islamic Society Det Islamiske Trossamfund, with which Copenhagen Municipality decided to sever co-operation last year. Neither Muslimsk Ungdom i Danmark nor Det Islamiske Trossamfund responded to TV2’s request for comment on the case.

Actually, it wasn't just in 2004. In 2013 the randy imam was arrested in Malmo:
http://www.frontpagemag.com/point/180393/muslim-imam-claims-women-who-dont-wear-hijabs-are-daniel-greenfield

I'm not going to excerpt that. Seriously, the guy who said in a Danish TV interview that women who went out without being covered were the cause of rape got arrested for chasing a woman around a park with his penis hanging out.

But back to January, 2016. After the city council members criticized Muslimsk Ungdom i Danmark, on January 15th we read:
http://cphpost.dk/news/relations-cooling-between-det-islamiske-trossamfund-and-copenhagen-municipality.html

Det Islamiske Trossamfund (DIT), an Islamic religious organisation in Copenhagen, has asked three politicians for compensation of 10,000 kroner each, reports Berlingske.

An apology has also been demanded for what DIT alleges were defamatory remarks made against the organisation that “have been devastating for co-operation between itself and [Copenhagen] Municipality”.
...
They have all been accused by DIT of making defamatory statements against the organisation and the controversial Islamic cleric Haitham al-Haddad who has previously been invited to speak at their community mosque located on Dortheavej in Copenhagen.

You are probably wondering who Haitham al-Haddad is:
We are now in November, 2015:
http://www.thelocal.dk/20151103/copenhagen-threatens-to-cut-ties-with-muslim-group

The City of Copenhagen has given the Islamic Society in Denmark (Det Islamisk Trossamfund) a 30-day deadline to condemn controversial statements made by some of the society’s members.
...
Copenhagen City Council members pointed to the society’s invitation to British imam Haitham al-Haddad earlier this year. According to city officials, al-Haddad “accepts violence against women and believes that Jews are the descendants of pigs and apes”.

He's controversial in Britain too:
http://www.independent.co.uk/student/news/thousands-sign-petition-to-stop-anti-gay-scholar-haitham-al-haddad-from-speaking-day-before-national-10066017.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haitham_al-Haddad

He's a "mandatory veil" guy:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/8455955/Muslim-Council-women-cannot-debate-wearing-veil.html

Also he insists no one should interfere when a man beats his wife. It's purely a private matter.

I do think the Islamic society doubled down with the randy imam, who has been quoted as justifying his assault on religious grounds.

So there's a reason to believe that in the west there may be a somewhat organized attempt to intimidate and sexually harass women by, um, some Muslims.

If you are wondering why I know this stuff, since my college days more than three decades ago. I have had good Muslim friends. Obviously NOT THIS TYPE. Male and female, they are really nice people.

But there are some Muslim preaching a brand of Islam that justifies all sorts of crimes which are forbidden to Muslims, if they are committed against non-Muslims. They blame such people, especially women, for all the ills in society.

[Arugula Latte]

133. I'm just going to say it. What the fuck is wrong with so many men?

Seriously -- so many are filled with seething hate, the need to control and inflict violence, and an overwhelming contempt for women. You see it on the Internet all the time and it is of course much more horrific in "real life."

How is it that one gender has so many fucked up people in it?

Yeah, yeah. "Not all men." But a lot. A LOT.

[sibelian]

151. Dunno. Some of us are freaks.

:-/

[Skittles]

188. and why do so many of them want to fuck children

it is indeed sickening

[DFW]

224. Yeah, my wife was nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize

Just for putting up with me these past 41 years.

(J/K!!)

[NaturalHigh]

141. Rapists should all get life sentences.

I don't care if some apologist wants to claim this is overblown or just some sort of cultural difference. Rapists don't deserve second chances.

[Lurker Deluxe]

158. No

If you make the crime of rape have a mandatory life in prison sentence, then all rapes will involve murder. Why would you leave a witness when the sentence cannot get any higher?

[zigby]

173. Fuck all patriarchal culture and religion

I don't even know why we're arguing this. We have rape and assault in the US? NO SHIT IT'S A MASSIVE PROBLEM. That doesn't mean we look the other way while Europe's women suffer. If anyone thinks for a goddamn minute that we would tolerate this from a group like migrant Latino farm workers (who have overwhelmingly proven as peaceful and law abiding a group as we could ask), they're insane and I have some bridged for sale. In the US, we are shitty at investigating and prosecuting acquaintance rape, but fer chrissakes people, we would NOT tolerate rapes and assaults in our city streets by roving mobs of immigrants or anyone.

[flamingdem]

191. It will be more than interesting to see how the German authorities tackle this problem

The eyes of the world are on them now. Wondering if the incidents will replay themselves though, the perpetrators must know they'll be arrested. The problem that remains is that they have the capacity to do something similar on a smaller scale and that might be harder to control.

[zigby]

235. Very true.

I think the scumbags who are heading this up drastically underestimate Germany's penchant for bureaucracy. Things have been lax, but implementing a system of biometric ID should be job #1. Increase police presence, require citizenship and cultural awareness programs, boot sexual predators the FUCK out.

[Kurska]

211. Amazing how quickly ideas like

"Just believe her"
"Rape should never be minimized"

etc... disappear when the rape isn't in line with the political narrative you want to project.

As evidenced by some posters in this thread.

[DFW]

219. As the husband of a German woman

And as the father of two German daughters, who now suddenly has to worry about this where I never did in the past, I am as disgusted as you are.

[Odin2005]

212. Right, and Jews murder Christian children to make Matzo, too!