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kpete

(71,985 posts)
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 10:14 AM Jan 2016

KRUGMAN: "a simple, straightforward single-payer system just isn’t going to happen"

The question for progressives — a question that is now central to the Democratic primary — is whether these failings mean that they should re-litigate their own biggest political success in almost half a century, and try for something better.

My answer, as you might guess, is that they shouldn’t, that they should seek incremental change on health care (Bring back the public option!) and focus their main efforts on other issues .....................................

............


What this means, as the health policy expert Harold Pollack points out, is that a simple, straightforward single-payer system just isn’t going to happen. Even if you imagine a political earthquake that eliminated the power of the insurance industry and objections to higher taxes, you’d still have to protect the interests of workers with better-than-average coverage, so that in practice single-payer, American style, would be almost as kludgy as Obamacare.

Which brings me to the Affordable Care Act, which was designed to bypass these obstacles. It was careful to preserve and even enlarge the role of private insurers. Its measures to cover the uninsured rely on a combination of regulation and subsidies, rather than simply on an expansion of government programs, so that the on-budget cost is limited — and can, in fact, be covered without raising middle-class taxes. Perhaps most crucially, it leaves employer-based insurance intact, so that the great majority of Americans have experienced no disruption, in fact no change in their health-care experience.

Even so, achieving this reform was a close-run thing: Democrats barely got it through during the brief period when they controlled Congress. Is there any realistic prospect that a drastic overhaul could be enacted any time soon — say, in the next eight years? No.





MORE:
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/18/opinion/health-reform-realities.html?action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=opinion-c-col-right-region

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KRUGMAN: "a simple, straightforward single-payer system just isn’t going to happen" (Original Post) kpete Jan 2016 OP
I understand his point, but he was being far more pessimistic than I expected Fast Walker 52 Jan 2016 #1
Because Krugman is reality based and reality is on Hillary's side. nt stevenleser Jan 2016 #6
Exactly. And he's right on this issue, as is Clinton. Hoyt Jan 2016 #20
Talking about kludgey 1939 Jan 2016 #41
And when Hillary Care was defeated, it was almost 20 years before anyone would touch it. Hoyt Jan 2016 #44
Because it was a complicated bureaucratic nightmare 1939 Jan 2016 #65
It put control at the local level. Medicare actually isn't that simple because most folks don't get Hoyt Jan 2016 #70
Right to a point 1939 Jan 2016 #140
Exactly one reason I think Medicare for all will be quite expensive. Hoyt Jan 2016 #141
Medicare didn't spring full blown into the program it is today -- which still pnwmom Jan 2016 #137
They are completely wrong. alarimer Jan 2016 #99
If you can get it passed, which is what Clinton and Krugman are saying -- you can't short-term. Hoyt Jan 2016 #102
sorry, you don't get change by pushing for incremental improvements Fast Walker 52 Jan 2016 #27
That is exactly how you get change in a Democracy. You rarely have the opportunity to do it any stevenleser Jan 2016 #31
Wrong Perogie Jan 2016 #39
Read about how the Social Security program evolved with incremental changes. Hoyt Jan 2016 #50
from a strict point of negotiating though, you start with a big goal Fast Walker 52 Jan 2016 #94
That is somewhat a simplification. A lot of negotiation goes on in the background. Hoyt Jan 2016 #95
And that is the same line of bullshit the 'civil unions are all that is possible' bigots pushed Bluenorthwest Jan 2016 #69
" the way things are serve them just fine". Or they haven't been burned (yet) by the way things are antigop Jan 2016 #77
Except it did take years and decades for same sex marriage mythology Jan 2016 #115
Tell that to the anti-smoking crowd. JohnnyRingo Jan 2016 #59
i'm glad it's being debated in pres primary. we need to have this debate again and again... tk2kewl Jan 2016 #35
Says the person who had THIS to say in 2008: ljm2002 Jan 2016 #68
So that means we can hold Sanders responsible for his gun positions in 2008 stevenleser Jan 2016 #74
Nice try, no cigar... ljm2002 Jan 2016 #78
That poster is always more harsh than necessary, it's part of his schtick Fumesucker Jan 2016 #139
Except, you leave out the part JesterCS Jan 2016 #138
I agree with his assessment of the political realities. ronnie624 Jan 2016 #79
You're arguments are so silly WhaTHellsgoingonhere Jan 2016 #142
Yeah, I know, whether someone can actually do what they promise is a silly thing to consider. stevenleser Jan 2016 #144
I just explained it all to you WhaTHellsgoingonhere Jan 2016 #145
SO. we try. pangaia Jan 2016 #2
How is that? Squinch Jan 2016 #8
Don't get me wrong, I am not against it. pangaia Jan 2016 #14
To say that it is an absolute disaster for millions is the same as saying you are against it. Squinch Jan 2016 #17
not a disaster kpete Jan 2016 #33
I've seen many of those too. Squinch Jan 2016 #36
Perhaps I exagerated. pangaia Jan 2016 #66
Everyone has a tendency to do that. maxsolomon Jan 2016 #113
Agreed. Obama never wanted a Public Option WhaTHellsgoingonhere Jan 2016 #40
Too hard! tazkcmo Jan 2016 #3
exactly. Fast Walker 52 Jan 2016 #28
+1000000 SammyWinstonJack Jan 2016 #86
Which is how we got the ACA passed. Next step — public option, then single-payer. brush Jan 2016 #108
I'm ok with that tazkcmo Jan 2016 #120
Agreed. Single payer has to be the final goal brush Jan 2016 #124
Thanks, third way. Ed Suspicious Jan 2016 #4
Krugman is not being honest. Either that, or he's being incredibly naive. merrily Jan 2016 #5
Krugman is being pragmatic and wants to fix things and get things done-like Hillary. riversedge Jan 2016 #10
I find the article completely honest TeddyR Jan 2016 #11
There was zero chance Alexander could defeat Napoleon, also. pangaia Jan 2016 #19
That's a trite response Cosmocat Jan 2016 #88
I see. pangaia Jan 2016 #89
He didn't have a majority of the House and Senate TeddyR Jan 2016 #110
That is absolutely true. pangaia Jan 2016 #112
I don't think he's being honest about the issue as a whole, including his description of the past. merrily Jan 2016 #22
If the dems could finally get a mid-term right - that would be a game changer lame54 Jan 2016 #7
Not until the redistricting issue is solved. Which would require massive state level Democratic stevenleser Jan 2016 #12
I hear you-- we don't have much chance until the new census Fast Walker 52 Jan 2016 #29
I fully expect a President Sanders to spend the first 2 years of his first term Volaris Jan 2016 #18
That is exactly what he did as mayor of Burlington, I am learning. pangaia Jan 2016 #23
The House is gerrymandered to Republicans JohnnyRingo Jan 2016 #64
So never try and you'll get it one day? mmonk Jan 2016 #9
We were assured that ACA was not going to be the be all and end all, only the beginning. merrily Jan 2016 #25
exactly. Fast Walker 52 Jan 2016 #30
Talk about dishonest (your words upthread). Single Payer isn't going further on the ACA KittyWampus Jan 2016 #56
Talk about dishonest (your words in Reply 56). My post upthread never said anything about merrily Jan 2016 #60
If the Democrats have a candidate who's diminishing the accomplishments of ACA pnwmom Jan 2016 #117
This is massive bullshit. stillwaiting Jan 2016 #13
Nope, you cannot have it until January 2023 at the earliest. stevenleser Jan 2016 #15
If only we had a candidate that could energize more people to the polls Perogie Jan 2016 #42
Being something that 50% of the populace won't vote for excludes you from being that stevenleser Jan 2016 #61
You're right Perogie Jan 2016 #132
This is the correct answer madville Jan 2016 #49
This is why midterms are so important. Beartracks Jan 2016 #129
Of course but this is a marathon, not a sprint Quixote1818 Jan 2016 #103
This message was self-deleted by its author LiberalArkie Jan 2016 #16
Not really 1939 Jan 2016 #46
Never underestimate the value of a deductible expense R.A. Ganoush Jan 2016 #55
Surrender to the kleptocracy. All resistance is futile. Warren Stupidity Jan 2016 #21
It's as if you don't realize there are other options. KittyWampus Jan 2016 #57
There is one sure way to stay with the status quo. onecaliberal Jan 2016 #24
Because I agree with Krugman likely means, once again, I'm not a real liberal Blue_Adept Jan 2016 #26
Bernie made the point last night, none of this will change unless we change campaign finance laws. leftupnorth Jan 2016 #32
Incrementalism. HughBeaumont Jan 2016 #34
Obamacare worked for the very poor and for the very rich (insurance companies) Doctor_J Jan 2016 #37
let's not try to change anything at all because sometimes we might fail Perogie Jan 2016 #38
It's not realistic to expect either candidate to get anything WhaTHellsgoingonhere Jan 2016 #43
Supreme Court nominations madville Jan 2016 #58
I covered that here WhaTHellsgoingonhere Jan 2016 #81
Krugman's right lanlady Jan 2016 #45
If you had asked most pundits a year ago... ljm2002 Jan 2016 #75
Ask yourself whether we get more and better Democrats with Hillary or Bernie as President. stillwaiting Jan 2016 #97
Well just have to leave Krug man behind Rosa Luxemburg Jan 2016 #47
Gladly Proserpina Jan 2016 #63
I think he is just looking at the handwriting on the wall and saying he thinks this is the CTyankee Jan 2016 #118
If Bernie can't get universal care kcjohn1 Jan 2016 #48
I think a President Bernie 1939 Jan 2016 #51
a bridge too far dembotoz Jan 2016 #52
People forget that Obamacare began as single payer. JohnnyRingo Jan 2016 #53
Bernie is promising to work with us. That's what he's promising. stillwaiting Jan 2016 #98
Well good luck then JohnnyRingo Jan 2016 #114
What was it RFK said? mikehiggins Jan 2016 #54
Krugman is handing out 10 lbs of BS in a 2 lb Sack Proserpina Jan 2016 #62
Well Mr. Krugman olddots Jan 2016 #67
this is the sort of truth that makes me want to leave this dump of a country forever. librechik Jan 2016 #71
You think it's all puppy dogs and rainbows somewhere else? stevenleser Jan 2016 #82
When I first visited my son in AU he handed me his Medicare card and said: librechik Jan 2016 #85
no answer? And we could be as functional here in the US if it weren't for hate. librechik Jan 2016 #96
People who say "it can't be done" need to shut up and go away. Avalux Jan 2016 #72
Thanks for your input Paul. elias49 Jan 2016 #73
First we need public option. Then WDIM Jan 2016 #76
Uh-oh, time for the hatred of Paul to begin... joeybee12 Jan 2016 #80
In other words, decide you are going to lose before negotiations even begin, Zorra Jan 2016 #83
Again with the fear meme Orrex Jan 2016 #92
Single-payer will never happen Matrosov Jan 2016 #84
When Krugman agrees with Sanders, he's a genius Orrex Jan 2016 #87
I think our best hope would be to get a public option - Vinca Jan 2016 #90
As I've Read & Listened To Krugman For Many Years... ChiciB1 Jan 2016 #91
Mostly status quo now. ozone_man Jan 2016 #93
I Suppose You Could Put It Another Way... ChiciB1 Jan 2016 #106
His statement of the goal is incorrect. The goal is access to healthcare, not health insurance. xocet Jan 2016 #100
Krugman has always portrayed himself as an FDR Democrat. jwirr Jan 2016 #101
Yes, that kind of thing is for other countries. moondust Jan 2016 #104
It's like none of these people have any idea what "Progressive" means. kjones Jan 2016 #105
So, what is Krugman saying, really? Baitball Blogger Jan 2016 #107
Krugman's been pretty incoherent on this issue for a while Chathamization Jan 2016 #109
When I looked at the article on the NY Times website... Lydia Leftcoast Jan 2016 #111
Try again. You missed them. Bottom, right hand side. n/t pnwmom Jan 2016 #116
They were invisible on my phone, but I saw them when I Lydia Leftcoast Jan 2016 #123
The way to get the public option, is to demand something even less palatable to TPTB. n/t lumberjack_jeff Jan 2016 #119
we will never go to the moon SoLeftIAmRight Jan 2016 #121
Krugman, the voice of reason. Beacool Jan 2016 #122
Hey, Kroog. We've all seen the ACA. I think we get that. Orsino Jan 2016 #125
This message was self-deleted by its author Corruption Inc Jan 2016 #126
We will have single-payer when our population is more manageable. randome Jan 2016 #127
He's not reading. zipplewrath Jan 2016 #128
This much is certain: as long as Democratic Eeyores say "no we can't" Maedhros Jan 2016 #130
Here’s One Big Problem With The Bernie Sanders Plan For Health Care Utopia Gothmog Jan 2016 #131
Krugman has already chosen his side. What a sellout AZ Progressive Jan 2016 #133
That is the kind of hopelessness and capitulation to power we have already overdosed on. Todays_Illusion Jan 2016 #134
We have to try Marrah_G Jan 2016 #135
Yes, thank you Marrah_G Todays_Illusion Jan 2016 #136
How about Medicare for All? jpak Jan 2016 #143
 

Fast Walker 52

(7,723 posts)
1. I understand his point, but he was being far more pessimistic than I expected
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 10:17 AM
Jan 2016

Kind of disappointing.

But generally Krugman seems to be on Hillary's side, for whatever reason.

1939

(1,683 posts)
41. Talking about kludgey
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 11:16 AM
Jan 2016

Hillarycare back in the early 90s was one of the most complicated schemes that came out of Washington.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
44. And when Hillary Care was defeated, it was almost 20 years before anyone would touch it.
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 11:21 AM
Jan 2016

We'd be a lot better off had Hillary Care passed.

1939

(1,683 posts)
65. Because it was a complicated bureaucratic nightmare
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 11:55 AM
Jan 2016

Developed by a control freak and would make the insurance companies look good by comparison.

Medicare is simple for the users (not sure if it is simple for the providers).

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
70. It put control at the local level. Medicare actually isn't that simple because most folks don't get
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 12:02 PM
Jan 2016

you pay a monthly premium to the government; unless you pay extra for a supplement, one hospitalization will bankrupt you because there is no maximum out-of-pocket cost; there is little dental, eye glasses, hearing aid coverage; health insurance companies actually administer Medicare at the local level, so we won't be rid of them; etc.

Besides, it wasn't the complicated -- people just weren't for a government health plan. People were stupid, but most are still stupid and when the GOPers start publicizing the tax increases, people will say NO just like Vermont found out when it put a pencil to the costs of going single payer. I agree, we'll be better off rather than paying premiums -- but people are still to stupid to see it.

1939

(1,683 posts)
140. Right to a point
Fri Jan 29, 2016, 08:25 AM
Jan 2016

Medicare is very simple and straight to the point.

Yes, you need to pay a Part B premium. Yes there are deductibles and co-pays so you wither need MediGap insurance or you need one of the Medicare HMO plans. Yes, it doesn't cover dental or vision. Yes, it doesn't provide for long term care and has limited pharmacy benefits.

What I do like about Medicare is that I can go to any doctor I want, see any specialist I want (without permission from my GP), and go to a "doc-in-the-box" if I want and still be covered.

I do not want a "network" or a "gatekeeper" or the complicated, Rube Goldberg "Hillarycare" with its consortiums of doctors.

I want any single payer plan to be "fee for service" where the doc doesn't get paid till he sees me. I do not want "capitation" where he gets the money up front and has no incentive to see me or make it convenient for me.

That is the trouble with the VA. Their incentive is to not see people and have to work since they are already getting paid without seeing people.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
141. Exactly one reason I think Medicare for all will be quite expensive.
Fri Jan 29, 2016, 12:03 PM
Jan 2016

Too many people are not willing to to do the kinds of things necessary to control utilization. Every other country puts controls on referrals, tests, etc. But too many Americans want to go to who they want, when they want.

This is what Sanders isn't telling people.

pnwmom

(108,977 posts)
137. Medicare didn't spring full blown into the program it is today -- which still
Fri Jan 29, 2016, 05:29 AM
Jan 2016

is not simple. People still need to have Part B for catastrophic coverage, plus separate drug coverage. And the government is dealing with ever rising costs.

alarimer

(16,245 posts)
99. They are completely wrong.
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 03:19 PM
Jan 2016

because our fucked up system is going to bankrupt everyone. SINGLE PAYER is the only way to go, long-term.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
102. If you can get it passed, which is what Clinton and Krugman are saying -- you can't short-term.
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 03:27 PM
Jan 2016

Clinton and Krugman are saying it's better to improve the ACA since we don't have to re-litigate the whole concept of health care reform. If we get bogged down in that, trying to pass single-payer, at best nothing will happen. At worse, we'll lose most of ACA.

 

Fast Walker 52

(7,723 posts)
27. sorry, you don't get change by pushing for incremental improvements
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 10:43 AM
Jan 2016

You need a bold vision. Bernie realizes single-payer may not go anywhere, but it is still the ultimate goal. You put out your goal. Right? I couldn't even tell what Hillary was proposing for healthcare last night. She seemed so happy with the ACA, which has serious problems.

 

stevenleser

(32,886 posts)
31. That is exactly how you get change in a Democracy. You rarely have the opportunity to do it any
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 10:50 AM
Jan 2016

other way.

Democracy is about incrementalism. You have to go to totalitarianism to be able to make routine massive changes.

Perogie

(687 posts)
39. Wrong
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 11:08 AM
Jan 2016

You start with bold plans and then get what you can. You don't start out small cause you will end up with even less.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
50. Read about how the Social Security program evolved with incremental changes.
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 11:30 AM
Jan 2016

Fact is, it will be even more difficult to enact a big change after the ACA growing pains. I think changing it is the only way to go.

Sometimes, you can reach for too much and lose everything, which is what I fear if Sanders were to be the nominee. I'll vote for him, but a lot of folks aren't ready for someone who is going to increase taxes dramatically on healhcare (I know it offsets premiums), and still hasn't projected how much taxes will have to increase for "free" education, Social Security, etc. I think Sanders might be worse than the McGovern landslide, and I'm not sure how that is possible.

BTW -- if I thought Sanders could move us toward a Demark like country, I'd be for him 100%. I don't.
 

Fast Walker 52

(7,723 posts)
94. from a strict point of negotiating though, you start with a big goal
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 01:38 PM
Jan 2016

Hillary is giving most of the negotiating position away already.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
95. That is somewhat a simplification. A lot of negotiation goes on in the background.
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 01:53 PM
Jan 2016

Before big legislation is introduced, Congress pretty much knows how it will shake out. That's why many of Sanders' Bills have gone nowhere -- introduced with no chance of enactment, but sounds good. Heck, if I were in Congress I'd introduce bills for reparations; everybody get a winning million dollar lottery ticket, tax free; etc.

 

Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)
69. And that is the same line of bullshit the 'civil unions are all that is possible' bigots pushed
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 12:01 PM
Jan 2016

All they wanted was to prevent us from having equality. The whole 'change is slow and we must be pragmatic, it will take generations to get to marriage, take what we can get now'.
They were wrong and they knew it, their objective was not to gain equality but to reject it in favor of some fucked up half measure that would allow them to continue felling superior. Sick of the bullshit those folks vend.

The people who preach what you preach are just looking for reasons to delay change because the way things are serve them just fine. Who preached gradualism on marriage rights? Straight people who were already married. Hillary, who opposed marriage equality in favor of half measures is currently using her own status as long time married person as a calling card, she did not see fit to allow people like me to marry, make families and become grandparents but she does not hesitate to claim that her being a Grandmother is a reason to vote for her. She brings up her own status, the very status she denied to me aggressively, in the name of 'pragmatic incremental God in the mix Sanctity' or whatever string of words straight religious hypocrites used that week.

 

mythology

(9,527 posts)
115. Except it did take years and decades for same sex marriage
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 07:30 PM
Jan 2016

The first lawsuit in the U.S. on same sex marriage was filed in 1970. It took a long time of smaller changes, not just civil unions, not just Massachusetts legalizing same sex marriage, but fighting all of those incompetent bans on same sex marriage, fighting against a proposed constitutional amendment. Fighting for recognition at smaller levels.

The Supreme Court didn't just decide to allow same sex marriage. They read the fact that the country was ready for it (some remaining troglodytes not withstanding).

Change takes time. It always has, it always will. It's why in 2006 Sanders said that it wasn't the right time for same sex marriage in Vermont after the fight for civil unions. Do I think Sanders was actually opposed to same sex marriage? No, but I think he understood the politics of it at the time. But I notice you didn't label him a straight hypocrite even though he was also denying you same sex marriage.

JohnnyRingo

(18,628 posts)
59. Tell that to the anti-smoking crowd.
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 11:42 AM
Jan 2016

I remember when I was young and they told my mom she could no longer smoke in the elevator. I was just a kid and didn't know why she was so mad. She told me "they're just getting their foot in the door".

I guess you would disagree with her and say they should have just made it illegal to smoke in public back in the '60s, but common sense says that couldn't have happened all at once. Change moves slowly if it's going to happen at all.

 

tk2kewl

(18,133 posts)
35. i'm glad it's being debated in pres primary. we need to have this debate again and again...
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 11:02 AM
Jan 2016

if for no other reason than to get more and more people to realize *why* "it's not going to happen."

the simple truth is that greed prevents it from happening. the insurance industry and wall st demand to take their vig. the drug companies demand monopoly pricing.

so yeah, let's keep having "reality-based" discussions, so that reality may one day convince people that enough is enough and we aren't going to give in to the reality of greed any longer

ljm2002

(10,751 posts)
68. Says the person who had THIS to say in 2008:
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 12:00 PM
Jan 2016
http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_steven_l_080320_hillary_clinton_s_re.htm

The only things Hillary's experience seems to be good for is perfecting how to talk out of both sides of her mouth, engaging in the politics of personal destruction and other aspects of her ruthless pursuit of power that remind one of what a Karl Rove might do. That kind of person ought not to be the Democratic nominee.


I can agree that this has been our political reality for quite some time now. Many of us are ready for a different political reality, and for many of the same reasons that you so eloquently expressed in 2008.
 

stevenleser

(32,886 posts)
74. So that means we can hold Sanders responsible for his gun positions in 2008
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 12:12 PM
Jan 2016

Great. So you are supporting an NRA-enabling toadie

ljm2002

(10,751 posts)
78. Nice try, no cigar...
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 12:24 PM
Jan 2016

...I am quoting your own words about Hillary Clinton, and I agree with a lot of what you said, although I actually think you were more harsh than you needed to be.

Whereas I have stated elsewhere that the one area where I have some concerns about Bernie is on gun control. However, he has addressed most of those concerns, and he has agreed to take a second look at the bill concerning gun manufacturers' liability. Furthermore, I totally get that his opponents get to criticize him on this issue, and unless they do so dishonestly, I will not get on their case for using the issue to their advantage.

Now I would claim that calling Sanders "an NRA-enabling toadie" is dishonest. He lost an early election in Vermont partly because he was against selling assault rifles and would not back down on that position. He has a D- from the NRA -- hardly the record of a "toadie".

Pffft.

JesterCS

(1,827 posts)
138. Except, you leave out the part
Fri Jan 29, 2016, 05:58 AM
Jan 2016

Where sanders voted no because of riders on the bill, not because of the original bill

ronnie624

(5,764 posts)
79. I agree with his assessment of the political realities.
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 12:25 PM
Jan 2016

It's the physical realities that pose the biggest problems for humans. They indicate a need for revolutionary change to the way we conduct our political and economic affairs. Acting to effectively mitigate the results of things like global climate change, the increasing human population and dwindling energy resources, is not possible by shutting up and waiting for incremental change.

 

WhaTHellsgoingonhere

(5,252 posts)
142. You're arguments are so silly
Fri Jan 29, 2016, 12:13 PM
Jan 2016

It's platform, a vision of where we need to go. Guess what? No Democrat is going to accomplish didly poo. Bernie isn't delusional like Hillary and supporters. The biggest joke about the election--even bigger than Trump--is the naive notion that Hillary will be remotely effective in this climate. I hope she keeps boasting about how much Republicans have hated her for 20 years. They wouldn't work with Obama unless he gave them what they wanted. You're all delusional that she'll be more effective than Obama.

 

WhaTHellsgoingonhere

(5,252 posts)
145. I just explained it all to you
Fri Jan 29, 2016, 12:29 PM
Jan 2016

I can't help you any further because delusional thinking is a defense mechanism.

Squinch

(50,949 posts)
8. How is that?
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 10:23 AM
Jan 2016

There are people who can't afford the coverage, but they couldn't afford it before either so their situation doesn't change, and millions who were not covered before are covered now. The prices are going up, but they are going up more slowly than they would have without the ACA.

So how is it an absolute disaster for millions?

pangaia

(24,324 posts)
14. Don't get me wrong, I am not against it.
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 10:31 AM
Jan 2016

But still for many, the premiums combined with co-pays and deductibles make it almost impossible.

I just mean we need better, much better.

Squinch

(50,949 posts)
17. To say that it is an absolute disaster for millions is the same as saying you are against it.
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 10:34 AM
Jan 2016

It is not an absolute disaster for millions. It has, in fact, allowed millions who were never insured before to get health insurance.

kpete

(71,985 posts)
33. not a disaster
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 10:56 AM
Jan 2016

and SO very interesting that ACA sign-ups in MY experience - are mostly by my Republican friends (yes, I have them)

 

WhaTHellsgoingonhere

(5,252 posts)
40. Agreed. Obama never wanted a Public Option
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 11:13 AM
Jan 2016

Worst case scenario, nothing changes. Best case, single payer. Split the difference is the public option which is the pathway to single payer.

tazkcmo

(7,300 posts)
3. Too hard!
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 10:20 AM
Jan 2016

How many parents have heard their children whine like that? Most things difficult are worth doing. Like flying. Like solar energy. Like a national highway system. Too hard!!! Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah. When you aim for the stars and fall short you still end up farther than where you started from.

brush

(53,767 posts)
108. Which is how we got the ACA passed. Next step — public option, then single-payer.
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 04:30 PM
Jan 2016

Too many repugs and blue dogs working to stop things for their clients corporations in the healthcare, insurance and pharma industries to have just gone straight to single-payer.

We won't get straight there from the ACA either if Bernie gets elected.

But single-payers is the ultimate goal despite all the obstructionism that will be in thrown in the way that we have to work through to get there.

Anyone who things that single-payer will automatically get passed just because Bernie gets elected is fooling themselves.

tazkcmo

(7,300 posts)
120. I'm ok with that
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 08:23 PM
Jan 2016

As long as their is a documented, enshrined in law and clear path to single payer. Look at Canada. We don't have to take as long as they did because we have lots of examples of how to get it done. Also, we'll want to avoid disruptions in people's lives and that includes taking care of health insurance workers that are bound to be laid off.

It's not ponies and cotton candy clouds. It's a reasonable and smart goal that will deliver actual healthcare at a better cost. But that's not what Clinton is saying. She's given up on single payer and now so have her supporters. Fuck 'em. We'll do it without them and they can reap the benefits.

brush

(53,767 posts)
124. Agreed. Single payer has to be the final goal
Thu Jan 21, 2016, 02:46 PM
Jan 2016

It won't be any easier if the Clintonistas give up on it though.

 

TeddyR

(2,493 posts)
11. I find the article completely honest
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 10:28 AM
Jan 2016

At least with regard to the fact that there's zero chance that the United States will enact a single payer health system sometime in the next decade. There's simply no chance that will happen. No Republican in Congress would support this idea and many Democrats would oppose. And if folks haven't noticed, Republicans currently control both the House and Senate and that probably isn't going to chance this election. Not being defeatist, that's just reality.

pangaia

(24,324 posts)
19. There was zero chance Alexander could defeat Napoleon, also.
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 10:35 AM
Jan 2016

But he put Michael Andreas Barclay de Tolly in charge and the rest is history.

Cosmocat

(14,563 posts)
88. That's a trite response
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 12:54 PM
Jan 2016

That has absolutely no relation to the discussion at hand.

This isn't Russia, it isn't the 1800s and it isn't a war.

This American Politics 2016.

In that context Napoleon had nothing on the general stupid of this country, republican ass hatery and the fecklessness and cowardice of democrats.

And, there is no single person who could be "appointed" who could even START to get past all of that.



pangaia

(24,324 posts)
112. That is absolutely true.
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 07:15 PM
Jan 2016

Russia didn't have a House or Senate.

However, de Tolly had the entire fucking Grande Armée to deal with. And they had GUNS!

And he managed to turn this-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_invasion_of_Russia#/media/File:Crossing_the_Neman_in_Russia_1812_by_Clark.jpg

The Grande Armée crossing the Niemen


into this-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_invasion_of_Russia#/media/File:Night_Bivouac_of_Great_Army.jpg

The Night Bivouac of Napoleon's Army during retreat from Russia in 1812.


Napoleon crossed the Nieman with some 685,000.
He went home with 120,000, give or take.


As several others have also learned, don't fuck with the Russians.



merrily

(45,251 posts)
22. I don't think he's being honest about the issue as a whole, including his description of the past.
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 10:37 AM
Jan 2016
 

stevenleser

(32,886 posts)
12. Not until the redistricting issue is solved. Which would require massive state level Democratic
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 10:28 AM
Jan 2016

victories in 2018 and 2020 so that after 2020 we would have won back many state legislatures. Those new Democratic state legislatures would rewrite the districts and in the midterm elections of November 2022, candidates would vie for election in those new districts and take office in January 2023, which happens to be the beginning of a the lame duck session of any Presidential candidate who managed to get elected in 2016 and won re-election in 2020.

We won the popular vote in terms of congressional elections in 2012. It still resulted in a massive Republican house majority of 33 seats because of the gerrymandered districts. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_House_of_Representatives_elections,_2012

I wonder how many people understand all of this.

Volaris

(10,270 posts)
18. I fully expect a President Sanders to spend the first 2 years of his first term
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 10:35 AM
Jan 2016

On mostly that problem.
It's THIS that the movement is about...A President (ANY President) can only sign the bills into law that Congress sends to his desk. Electing President Sanders is about getting the Team Coach right, but it's the recruited players in Congress that have to be willing to do the hard work of WINNING THE GAME.
This election is about getting the President that will get us a deep blue Congress again. The White House is just the bully pulpit.

JohnnyRingo

(18,628 posts)
64. The House is gerrymandered to Republicans
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 11:54 AM
Jan 2016

... and it's harder to unseat a member of congress than beat a case of herpes.

If a President Sanders needs a blue congress to implement his agenda he'll have to spend his entire 1st term on election reform and awaiting a slow change of seats. Unfortunately for him, the elections are run by the states instead of the White House.

Sanders better plan on working with republicans to get his policies passed and that means compromise, apparently a dirty word to Bernie supporters who want radical change immediately.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
25. We were assured that ACA was not going to be the be all and end all, only the beginning.
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 10:40 AM
Jan 2016

Last edited Mon Jan 18, 2016, 11:41 AM - Edit history (1)

Yet, talk about going further and we're told it's impossible.

Third Way Argument Du Jour.

 

KittyWampus

(55,894 posts)
56. Talk about dishonest (your words upthread). Single Payer isn't going further on the ACA
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 11:37 AM
Jan 2016

Sanders doesn't go further on the ACA and build on it. It's a complete rebuild.

And it's this sort of dishonesty amongst Sanders supporters that gets very tiresome.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
60. Talk about dishonest (your words in Reply 56). My post upthread never said anything about
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 11:43 AM
Jan 2016

going further on the ACA or about building on the ACA. You added all that and then called me dishonest, when I never said it. Not only that, you went on to imply all Bernie supporters were dishonest. The only dishonesty I see is mischaracterizing my Reply 25 and smearing all Bernie supporters.

pnwmom

(108,977 posts)
117. If the Democrats have a candidate who's diminishing the accomplishments of ACA
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 07:41 PM
Jan 2016

and calling for its replacement with single payer, and the Rethugs are promising that they have a better alternative, the average voter is going to come to the conclusion that both parties agree that the ACA isn't any good, and that -- once again -- government failed.

Why would they support the Dems -- who supposedly flubbed the ACA -- in trying again?

stillwaiting

(3,795 posts)
13. This is massive bullshit.
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 10:29 AM
Jan 2016

We can have it if enough of us DEMAND that we have a system like other countries have. Period.

We're the richest country in the world per capita.

Top rated comments at his op-ed are all strongly against him and express massive disappointment in Paul. I guess DU members are busy over there, huh?





 

stevenleser

(32,886 posts)
15. Nope, you cannot have it until January 2023 at the earliest.
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 10:33 AM
Jan 2016

And since that would be the lame duck session of any Presidential candidate who got elected in 2016 and managed to get re-elected in 2020, and it would require winning the midterms of 2022, not likely then either.

Pretending the obstacles that exist don't exist and can be wished away will not make the policies you want be enacted.

Perogie

(687 posts)
42. If only we had a candidate that could energize more people to the polls
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 11:17 AM
Jan 2016

Someone that could get young people to vote and independents to vote for Democrats. Then it could happen before 2023 by unseating some Republicans even in gerrymandered districts.

If only we had such a candidate.........

 

stevenleser

(32,886 posts)
61. Being something that 50% of the populace won't vote for excludes you from being that
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 11:46 AM
Jan 2016

Kind of candidate

Perogie

(687 posts)
132. You're right
Fri Jan 29, 2016, 03:57 AM
Jan 2016

Every progressive movement, every piece of legislation that made real change for good always started out with majority support. That's why all those things were so easy to get done. Good call Steve

madville

(7,408 posts)
49. This is the correct answer
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 11:28 AM
Jan 2016

Single payer health care isn't getting passed between 2016 and 2022, it's basically impossible with Congress and it's ok to acknowledge that. After 2024, that's unknown and the situation may be better. We have to take back state-level offices to get the House back by 2022-2024.

Beartracks

(12,809 posts)
129. This is why midterms are so important.
Thu Jan 21, 2016, 03:19 PM
Jan 2016

I wish more people got fired up for midterms and not just presidential elections. A grassroots movement starts at the roots in order to sustain itself. Look at how the GOP did it over the last 40 years or so.

"All politics is local."


=============

Quixote1818

(28,929 posts)
103. Of course but this is a marathon, not a sprint
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 03:28 PM
Jan 2016

These ideas need to be fought for over long periods of time before they can take hold. It took Republicans decades to get their trickle down economics and Gov. deregulation going after Roosevelt's policies were so popular. Not trying means it will never have a chance to take hold.

Response to kpete (Original post)

1939

(1,683 posts)
46. Not really
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 11:22 AM
Jan 2016

Unions negotiated paid healthcare back in WWII because government wage and price controls wouldn't let them bargain for higher wages and they needed some success to show their members. At that time, the companies were reaping war profits and the costs were minimal. The companies then extended it to white collar and it became one of the perks of employment.

R.A. Ganoush

(97 posts)
55. Never underestimate the value of a deductible expense
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 11:37 AM
Jan 2016

While many very small (<25 ee's) businesses with low margins would be glad to be out from under the burden of a cash flow drain, for those that can manage it; they will have to find other offsets to reduce their taxable business income.

Whereas, if they supplement the loss of having to provide healthcare with increasing wages, they will be paying a greater portion of payroll taxes on those wages. So it's a bigger flip in the other direction for them. That's why I don't necessarily think it will be the panacea that many believe.

It's a noble goal to be sure, but with a lot of moving parts.

onecaliberal

(32,826 posts)
24. There is one sure way to stay with the status quo.
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 10:39 AM
Jan 2016

That is to do nothing, to make no attempt. I'm sorry but 26 million unisured is NOT okay in the richest country on the earth.

How we treat the least of us demonstrates what kind of people we are. When did we become an I've got mine, fuck you, people?

Blue_Adept

(6,399 posts)
26. Because I agree with Krugman likely means, once again, I'm not a real liberal
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 10:40 AM
Jan 2016

I tend to prefer more pragmatic approaches in general, especially in the hugely disruptive world we live in today with the way technology has changed so many things. Everything moves so fast that it's making the conservative side even more stubborn.

leftupnorth

(886 posts)
32. Bernie made the point last night, none of this will change unless we change campaign finance laws.
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 10:54 AM
Jan 2016

As long as private insurance is involved in health care, we will never cover everyone for a reasonable cost.

The ACA was regressive in the aspect that it permanently cemented private health insurance into the system. We can't have affordable insurance and care with these bloodsuckers involved.

Just because it's deemed impossible by the experts, doesn't mean we shouldn't try. It's a defeatist attitude to throw single payer under the bus. Very disappointing coming from so called democrats.

HughBeaumont

(24,461 posts)
34. Incrementalism.
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 10:57 AM
Jan 2016

It's how the wealthy, corporations and Republicans took this country over, starting in the mid-to-late 60s until now.

Just funny how seemingly easy they had and have THEIR way and we can't have ours without an arduous and almost insurmountable uphill climb.

To retake state legislatures would require massive de-programming of suburban and rural voters. Rupert Murdoch shored those people up with his propaganda arm.

 

Doctor_J

(36,392 posts)
37. Obamacare worked for the very poor and for the very rich (insurance companies)
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 11:04 AM
Jan 2016

A lot of working stiffs like me got absolutely crushed. But that's not even my main objection. The ACA makes the insurance companies part of the government by mandating that we give our money to them. It saddled us with the bill for record insurance and PHARMA profits for at least fifty years. How can any democrat believe in a plan that was written by the heritage foundation, pushed by newt Gingrich, and implemented by Willard Romney?

What professor Krugman and the rest of the former liberals won't admit is that pretty much all of the president's "successes" were far more lucrative to the big corporations than to working people.

Perogie

(687 posts)
38. let's not try to change anything at all because sometimes we might fail
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 11:07 AM
Jan 2016

I guess we should all just stay home in November cause change might be hard to do.

 

WhaTHellsgoingonhere

(5,252 posts)
43. It's not realistic to expect either candidate to get anything
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 11:21 AM
Jan 2016

Through in 4 years. That fact escapes Hillary supporters. If Congress flips during his second term, there's certainly a chance. If Congress remains obstructionist, nothing will get done in 8 years. And if Hillary is elected, she's got little to offer progressives Bernie wouldn't deliver, anyway.

lanlady

(7,134 posts)
45. Krugman's right
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 11:21 AM
Jan 2016

I totally support single-payer but the political forces are stacked against it - we need to elect a lot more Democrats at every level, state and national, before that happens. In fact, pushing single-payer under a President Sanders could seriously backfire, he probably would not get a second term and we'd be stuck with GOP control of the House, Senate, and White House in 2020. I think it's wisest to consolidate gains and fix ACA where it needs fixing. Revisit single-payer in due course when we have more Democratic governors, senators, congressmen, and state houses in place.

ljm2002

(10,751 posts)
75. If you had asked most pundits a year ago...
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 12:16 PM
Jan 2016

...whether Bernie Sanders, an avowed Democratic Socialist, would be giving Hillary Clinton a run for her money, they would have said not only no, but hell no! They would have cited polls showing that few people will vote for a socialist; they would have said the "political forces are stacked against" him; etc. etc. etc.

There is a tide in the affairs of men.
Which, taken at the flood, leads on to fortune --Shakespeare

People sometimes get lost in the numbers, and think they can predict the future based on them. But you cannot predict when great changes will occur; and when they do occur, they often overwhelm the status quo against all odds.

Now we may not see such a change this time around; but then again, we'll never know if those of us who want such a change do not even try.

stillwaiting

(3,795 posts)
97. Ask yourself whether we get more and better Democrats with Hillary or Bernie as President.
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 03:03 PM
Jan 2016

With Hillary, Debbie Wasserman Schultz or someone very much like her will be running the show for the Democratic Party. This individual will finance Democratic primary campaigns that meet with corporate approval. At the end of a Hillary Presidency we will still be VERY far from getting single payer because we will have another round of Blue Dog Democrats that don't want it.

With Bernie there will be a new vision for the Democratic Party. THIS is what we absolutely have to have for us to EVER have a chance at getting single payer in this country. Bernie would appoint a strong progressive to run the Democratic Party as DNC Chairman to reflect HIS vision for the Democratic Party (which would be validated with him winning a national primary contest and a national election).

We MUST change Democratic Leadership in this country or we will continue losing ground in this country. The 1% continue to hoover up more and more of the income and wealth pie, and that is not going to change if the Democratic Leadership remains firmly in the hands of politicians that serve corporate interests over average American interests.

We either change the Party by nominating Bernie or a decade from now most all of us are going to be much worse off and the financial elite will be even more grotesquely well off. That is the status quo right now, and a lot of us really need to wake up to that reality.

If you are wanting a better House and Senate in 2020 we have a huge opportunity here. Progressive policies are supported by a majority of Americans. Let's put someone in the White House that will work with us to build a progressive Democratic Party. The Congress in 2020 will look much better than it does today for us.

We need to upset the status quo. People WANT to upset the status quo. Bernie is the one that can do that.

 

Proserpina

(2,352 posts)
63. Gladly
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 11:54 AM
Jan 2016

Since when is he such a political expert, anyway? Even as a economist, he's been resting on his laurels for at least a decade.

CTyankee

(63,903 posts)
118. I think he is just looking at the handwriting on the wall and saying he thinks this is the
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 08:12 PM
Jan 2016

best with can get (ACA). He doesn't know any better than anyone else what the political fortunes of health care will be. I think he's being realistic now...

kcjohn1

(751 posts)
48. If Bernie can't get universal care
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 11:28 AM
Jan 2016

Through this congress, what will Clinton? Even her incremental changes are going to be non starters with Republicans. Only thing possible will be 3rd way agenda like cuts SS and "tax" reform.

I rather shoot for the moon even If it has 1% of getting. Even if he fails at least universal care will be in the conversation when their is favorable congress.

1939

(1,683 posts)
51. I think a President Bernie
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 11:30 AM
Jan 2016

could get something. Hillary couldn't as she is too much of a control freak (my way or the highway).

After the election, call in the main GOP players in the House and Senate and ask if we could get Medicare for All supported by a VAT. I think the GOP might well go for it if he grovels a little bit, they design it, and he is willing to let them take the credit.

The insurance companies would be relieved of high risk and could be very profitable selling Medigap coverage where the risk is easy to calculate. Leave drug, dental, mental health, and long term care for another day.

JohnnyRingo

(18,628 posts)
53. People forget that Obamacare began as single payer.
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 11:31 AM
Jan 2016

It was to be "Medicare for all" until the administration realized that Obama couldn't even get the House Democrats behind him. If Obama had stuck to his guns and pursued a single payer plan, the bill would have died forever in 2009.

I'm 62 and would benefit greatly from single payer, but I probably won't live to see it happen. Bernie Sanders absolutely won't see it in his lifetime, let alone his presidential term(s), and if he dismantles Obamacare trying, he'll likely get a Congressional medal from Republican Paul Ryan.

Bernie Sanders is promising something he can't hope to deliver, but that's what professional politicians do on the stump. They tell you what you want to hear.

stillwaiting

(3,795 posts)
98. Bernie is promising to work with us. That's what he's promising.
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 03:08 PM
Jan 2016

That would be an amazing thing actually.

He would appoint someone as Party chairperson that actually finances politicians that support his policies (that a majority of Americans support).

This is all that Bernie supporters expect from him. It's actually a hell of a lot when you think about it, and it's VERY different from what any of the other candidates would do for us.

JohnnyRingo

(18,628 posts)
114. Well good luck then
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 07:28 PM
Jan 2016

I remember when people here turned on Obama when he began compromising to get things done. I'm sure they'd never do that to Bernie if he abandoned his lofty goals for the sake of incremental accomplishment though.

The other candidate has been crucified for admitting that moderate reform is a more practical means to an end. Perhaps she should have misrepresented her policies to claim sweeping changes to banking, Wall Street, and health care during her first term.

Changing the DNC chair isn't going to oust gerrymanderd republicans from district seats and statehouses. Not for decades anyway. It's not about finances.

mikehiggins

(5,614 posts)
54. What was it RFK said?
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 11:31 AM
Jan 2016

Something about some people asking why, and other people asking why not?

Krugman is great but the problem is that if you accept the way things are, they will never change.

Everything he says makes sense, in the context of what he is saying, but that relies on nothing changing. This nation is bogged down in a sea of cynicism, the war cry being "no we can't."

When I was a young man (which is a long time ago) many of my right wing friends despaired of ever overcoming the stranglehold the "libruls" had on this society. Some determined to change it, as unlikely a prospect as that was. The difference was that they had a strong core set of beliefs and did everything they could to make those beliefs prevail.

They didn't quit. Incrementalists and accomodationists would have you believe that difficulty is the same as impossibility AND our political elites are much more comfortable with fitting in than breaking out.

If Sanders doesn't win, even if winning means disruption and acrimony, I fear for the Republic. You may think that is hyperbole. What it really is more basically described as belief. Believing in their ideas and working hard to see them win out worked for the Right. We have to do the same.

Because...Fuck This Shit!

 

Proserpina

(2,352 posts)
62. Krugman is handing out 10 lbs of BS in a 2 lb Sack
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 11:49 AM
Jan 2016

It's neither impossible nor undesirable to provide HEALTHCARE for all through universal single payer.

It is worth the work. It is worth the "disruption" to the profiteers. It's worth saving half the money wasted on health "insurance" and all the other savings. It's worth eliminating 90% of the paperwork.

To not do it is to insist on ossification of the medical field and unnecessary death and bankruptcy for people.

librechik

(30,674 posts)
71. this is the sort of truth that makes me want to leave this dump of a country forever.
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 12:05 PM
Jan 2016

I'm so tired of living in this phony amusement park Frontierland. Can we ever grow up and join the rest of the world in the present era??

 

stevenleser

(32,886 posts)
82. You think it's all puppy dogs and rainbows somewhere else?
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 12:28 PM
Jan 2016

I got news for you, Europe is undergoing a massive upheaval right now and flirtations with a brand of the radical right that makes Ted Cruz look like Dennis Kucinich. I have no idea where you think you can go where you can escape a tough political climate.

librechik

(30,674 posts)
85. When I first visited my son in AU he handed me his Medicare card and said:
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 12:41 PM
Jan 2016

"At least I live in a country that WORKS"

And he was right. Free education, employment assistance, manufacturing and farming local as possible and successful--yeah it works. The 08 crash skipped Australia because duh, safeguards.

No, it's not all rainbows and puppies. Australia has some serious problems, including distribution of resources, racism, and immigration horrors.

But they don't have mass shootings. You don't see the widespread bloodthirsty hatred from conservatives you see here. It penetrates the air here so much I can feel it as soon as I land in LAX after visiting MEL.

Australians cheerfully pitch in and help each other in a crisis. It's the national character.

You don't see that here. It's all greed and resentment if anybody else receives any help.

librechik

(30,674 posts)
96. no answer? And we could be as functional here in the US if it weren't for hate.
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 02:37 PM
Jan 2016

so easy to manipulate folks against their own best interests. decade after decade.

Avalux

(35,015 posts)
72. People who say "it can't be done" need to shut up and go away.
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 12:09 PM
Jan 2016

It's simply not true, and if we decide "oh hey, Paul's right, he's an expert, it can't be done, so I'll just settle for what we have", then progress will never be possible. How many times in history have people, either singularly or collectively, snubbed their noses at the naysayers and gone on to do amazing things?

Go away Paul.

WDIM

(1,662 posts)
76. First we need public option. Then
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 12:19 PM
Jan 2016

once everybody signs up for the public option we go to single payer.

 

joeybee12

(56,177 posts)
80. Uh-oh, time for the hatred of Paul to begin...
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 12:27 PM
Jan 2016

God forbid he shouldn't agree with Bernie 100% like so many INSIST you must.

Zorra

(27,670 posts)
83. In other words, decide you are going to lose before negotiations even begin,
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 12:33 PM
Jan 2016

so you end up with the worst deal possible. In 2009 and 2010, Third Way sold us out, without even trying to get single payer, and without even so much as an apology to us, the Democratic electorate. The result was the huge Democratic majority getting annihilated in the 2010 elections.

Conventional wisdom said Bernie had no chance. Now t he Clinton camp is running scared

Get with the political revolution, Mr. Krugman. The days of the rule of the oligarchs are numbered. If not today, then tomorrow. Lead, follow, or get out of the way.

Because, you see...

Orrex

(63,203 posts)
92. Again with the fear meme
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 01:29 PM
Jan 2016

Funny how we see it again and again: any reaction short of whole-hearted embrace of Sanders is taken as proof that someone is afraid of him. That's a very strange slogan.

Practically speaking, which is preferable? Is it better to campaign for a program that's doomed from its outset, knowing that it will fail and that its failure will be cast as an indictment of the administration that fails to push it through? Or is it better to campaign for a program that has a fair chance to pass and which will, if it passes, improve conditions for millions of people?

Yes, single-payer would be lovely, but the Congress during Obama's tenure and the Congress likely going into the next President's term sure as hell won't pass it or anything like it. So what's the point?

Some would argue that it's worthwhile to put the idea on the table, and--as empty gestures go--I'm sure that counts for something.

But I'm not interested in ineffectual grandstanding, nor am I a person of faith. Show me how a President Sanders might realistically accomplish the lofty goal of single-payer for all, and I'll be on board. But simply insisting that Sanders will get it done is nothing but a reassuring mantra for his true believers.

 

Matrosov

(1,098 posts)
84. Single-payer will never happen
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 12:34 PM
Jan 2016

Between the power of the insurance industry and the conservative idiots who'll claim single-payer would make this a communist country, single-payer will never happen here.

Vinca

(50,267 posts)
90. I think our best hope would be to get a public option -
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 01:00 PM
Jan 2016

buying into Medicare rather than big insurance. Over time the scale would be weighted toward Medicare and it would be an easier step to single-payer. Things worth fighting for are rarely easy. I hope we don't continue to support obscene profits in the insurance industry, big pharma, etc. without an effort to get to single-payer. Our biggest obstacle is the gerrymandered Congress. Until we win statehouses and can gerrymander a little to our benefit, we'll probably see little success no matter who is elected.

ChiciB1

(15,435 posts)
91. As I've Read & Listened To Krugman For Many Years...
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 01:20 PM
Jan 2016

He's been a bouncing ball and I'm never SURE exactly where or what he supports.

Try reading Thomas Picket's book for some very INFORMED analysis and information. This book was sold out before I could buy it, but it was given to me as a gift at Christmas.

For me, HE RULES... Krugman can be a very, very small many at times.
JMHO!

ozone_man

(4,825 posts)
93. Mostly status quo now.
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 01:31 PM
Jan 2016

For a while in 2008, he was on the right track, suggesting that the failing banks be nationalized, broken up, and sold off. But, they were bailed out, and he never seems to have rekindled those ideas. He seems to be more of a financial "mechanic" resigned to tweaking the system.

ChiciB1

(15,435 posts)
106. I Suppose You Could Put It Another Way...
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 03:54 PM
Jan 2016

Or perhaps I'm saying the same thing using different words. His star rose around that time because around that time so many people really didn't know what was going on. They were trying to figure out what happened and asking why. He was able to provide enough of an intelligent answer to help inform many of us. That was then, this is now. We've been able to adjust from the shock and discover so much more.

There have been other economists and of course Picketty's book that have been able to show the "how" it happened and then offer the reality of where we are now. I'm not done reading his book, but I'm seeing so many things much clearer now.

Krugman is knowledgeable, but I wake up every morning thinking I have something new to learn.


xocet

(3,871 posts)
100. His statement of the goal is incorrect. The goal is access to healthcare, not health insurance.
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 03:24 PM
Jan 2016
Health Reform Realities
Paul Krugman JAN. 18, 2016

...

It more or less achieves a goal — access to health insurance for all Americans — that progressives have been trying to reach for three generations.

...

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/18/opinion/health-reform-realities.html?action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=opinion-c-col-right-region

moondust

(19,972 posts)
104. Yes, that kind of thing is for other countries.
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 03:31 PM
Jan 2016

Can't be done in the USA because USA is exceptional or something.

kjones

(1,053 posts)
105. It's like none of these people have any idea what "Progressive" means.
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 03:33 PM
Jan 2016

Progressive, as in gradually building up, one step at a time.

And people characterizing it as "defeatism" or purposefully
slowing down progress are full of it.
Sure, "revolution" sells well, but the vast majority of human
progress has been...of course, progressive. The heavy lifting
of moving society forward has been through steady pressure
applied consistently...in small steps and increments, rather
than leaps and bounds (as memorable as those moments may be).

I have nothing against leaps and bounds, some great things
are in leaps and bounds. To quote the hero of the day, there
are times when we can't afford the "luxury of cooling off or to
take the tranquilizing drug of gradualism." MLK

Reality tells us though, that this is not one of those times, this
is a time where we need to hold firm to gains...because we
can't afford to spin our tires now...after all, there are some
truly terrifying people just waiting for us to slip up. We are
not in an advantageous situation...as has been pointed out,
the political landscape (congress) is still in a state of insanity.
Obama pulled us out of some dark times, and now, we need to
regroup, and consolidate our strength, replenish our allies (both
in number, and support) and protect the ground we've gained.
No, we are not done, we do not believe we are done....we do
not believe we will ever really be done.

So I encourage you all, instead of burning bridges, to build them,
because we will need the strength in the coming decade. The 2020s
are aptly labeled, because with the benefits of both hindsight
and foresight, and if we actually work to build those bridges and
strengthen our positions, we will be well placed to make it a
decade of a "Progressive United States," and not the stagnant,
bogged down US we have been...or worse, the REgressive US
that those other people would have us become.

So, I don't know about everyone else, but I intend to keep
my foot firmly planted on the gas pedal. Yeah, it may not
be as noisy, noticeable, or dramatic as flooring it...but hey...
we're not in a race, we're in a convoy...and I don't intend
to leave anyone behind.

Baitball Blogger

(46,700 posts)
107. So, what is Krugman saying, really?
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 03:56 PM
Jan 2016

Was single-payer used as a baiting issue to reel in the Democratic vote? Was that all it ever was? And if so, how many decades was Hillary using that bait in her favor?

Chathamization

(1,638 posts)
109. Krugman's been pretty incoherent on this issue for a while
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 05:07 PM
Jan 2016

Back in '09 he was talking about what a mess the ACA would be without the public option. And it is a mess - much better than what we had before, but still pretty bad in a lot of ways. For Krugman to say that it more or less achieves the progress goal on healthcare (rather than it being a step in the right direction) is to not only go against progressive ideals, but to go against what had been his own views just a few years ago. Worth noting that In 2012 he was calling the ACA "a flawed route to universal coverage."

It's also worth noting that in the article linked to above, Krugman mocked the idea that there weren't enough votes for the public option ("the essentially circular political arguments — centrist Democrats insisting that the public option must be dropped to get the votes of centrist Democrats&quot , but now mocks people on the Left who complain that Obamacare relies on health insurance companies by saying that the ACA was the only politically feasible option.

So, it's silly for us on the Left to complain about the ACA, because we just couldn't get that public option when we had control of the Senate and the House. Now, Krugman tells us we shouldn't focus on distractions but on things that are achievable like...getting back the public option? (Krugman: "they should seek incremental change on health care (Bring back the public option!)&quot .

The problem is that Sanders' plan assumes that large savings will come from single-payer - wait, in the Rolling Stone article above Krugman said that single-payer would cover more people at a cheaper price. Eh.

But it's not going to pass, so why talk about it? It's a distraction. Except that Krugman also said that though the Progressive Caucus budget wasn't going to pass, he would be remiss if he didn't call attention to it and thought that the media should pay more attention to it as well.

I like Krugman in general, but it feels like he's a bit all over the place on this issue. It's also easy to call this a distraction when you're sitting happily with your employer provided insurance and don't have to go through the bureaucratic nightmare of the exchanges like the plebes do ("I don't have to deal with this, but I'm sure it's good enough for you folk" feels a lot like wealthsplanin').

Lydia Leftcoast

(48,217 posts)
111. When I looked at the article on the NY Times website...
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 06:45 PM
Jan 2016

it didn't allow comments. Krugman usually does. I suppose he thought, "Nah, don't want to deal with the negative backlash."

 

SoLeftIAmRight

(4,883 posts)
121. we will never go to the moon
Tue Jan 19, 2016, 01:54 AM
Jan 2016

we will never have a black president

republican will do something right

Beacool

(30,247 posts)
122. Krugman, the voice of reason.
Tue Jan 19, 2016, 02:08 AM
Jan 2016

"The question for progressives — a question that is now central to the Democratic primary — is whether these failings mean that they should re-litigate their own biggest political success in almost half a century, and try for something better.

My answer, as you might guess, is that they shouldn’t, that they should seek incremental change on health care (Bring back the public option!) and focus their main efforts on other issues — that is, that Bernie Sanders is wrong about this and Hillary Clinton is right. But the main point is that we should think clearly about why health reform looks the way it does."

Orsino

(37,428 posts)
125. Hey, Kroog. We've all seen the ACA. I think we get that.
Thu Jan 21, 2016, 02:52 PM
Jan 2016

The end product, if there must be one, doesn't need to be simple or straightforward.

We just need to get health care to as many more people as we can. 29 million completely lack coverage, and tens of millions more could still be bankrupted by serious medical problems.

Response to kpete (Original post)

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
127. We will have single-payer when our population is more manageable.
Thu Jan 21, 2016, 03:09 PM
Jan 2016

And that's probably the most difficult undertaking of all so I don't see it happening.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]“If you're not committed to anything, you're just taking up space.”
Gregory Peck, Mirage (1965)
[/center][/font][hr]

zipplewrath

(16,646 posts)
128. He's not reading.
Thu Jan 21, 2016, 03:11 PM
Jan 2016

I think he missed an option. He certainly didn't discuss it.

"Medicare for all" doesn't have to be instantaneous. It can start "small". Small businesses for decades have asked for the ability to "buy" medicare for their employees. Finding a way to "allow" that would be the beginning. Alternately it has been repeatedly suggested that people over 55 be allowed to "purchase" medicare until they reach the age of eligibility. A similar suggestion was once made in order to allow college students to have affordable health insurance.

These are small changes that can begin to expand towards "single payer". It's a vastly more direct way to it than anything in the ACA. It would "cost" nothing in a tax sense because most of it is just people or commercial entities "purchasing" access to the medicare program The primary opponent to it (besides the Tea party folks) would be the insurance companies because they would immediately see the creeping nature of it. Allowing parents to "buy" coverage for college students instead of forcing the insurance companies to cover these people until 27 would put some grease on that slide. Putting it in some larger package of student loan modifications and education assistance type package (free community college tuition?) could "hide" it politically to some extent. (It's an education benefit!)

 

Maedhros

(10,007 posts)
130. This much is certain: as long as Democratic Eeyores say "no we can't"
Thu Jan 21, 2016, 03:42 PM
Jan 2016

then we definitely won't.

Gothmog

(145,130 posts)
131. Here’s One Big Problem With The Bernie Sanders Plan For Health Care Utopia
Thu Jan 21, 2016, 04:18 PM
Jan 2016

This plan will not be adopted nationally http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/bernie-sanders-health-plan_us_569ff110e4b076aadcc50807

The Bernie Sanders health care plan, which the Vermont senator released this week, sounds pretty spectacular at first blush. It’s a proposal to create a single-payer system, which means that Sanders would wipe away existing insurance arrangements and replace them with a single government program. Everybody would get insurance, free of co-pays or deductibles.

That’d be an upgrade in benefits, even for seniors on Medicare. And while people would have to pay higher taxes, Sanders claims most people would come out ahead financially because they wouldn’t be paying private insurance premiums anymore. A typical middle-class family would save about $5,000 a year, according to a rough analysis commissioned by Sanders' presidential campaign, while society as a whole would end up saving something like $6 trillion over the next decade.

To help pay for his plan’s unprecedented benefits, Sanders proposes to extract unprecedented savings from the health care system. Here is where the details get fuzzy and hard to accept at face value, even beyond the usual optimistic assumptions that figure into campaign proposals. Sanders expects a large portion of the savings to come from reductions in administrative waste, because insurance billing would basically end. Another big chunk would come from squeezing the industries that produce health care services and supplies -- and squeezing those industries hard.

That last part should set off alarm bells for anybody who remembers the fight to pass the Affordable Care Act. Two particular episodes from 2009 -- one widely publicized, one barely noticed -- are a reminder of how much power those groups wield in Washington. For Sanders to realize his vision for single-payer health care, he’d have to overcome even greater resistance than Obamacare’s architects faced. And Sanders has offered no reason to think he could do that, which is something Democratic voters might want to keep in mind.

Two lessons from Obamacare

The first and better-known episode from 2009 was the battle over the “public option” -- a proposal, crafted by Yale political scientist Jacob Hacker, to create a government-run insurance plan that would compete with private insurers for customers. Hacker and others figured the public option could dictate lower payment rates to suppliers and providers of medical care, just like Medicare does, thereby keeping premiums low and forcing private insurers to match them.

Voters liked the idea, according to polls, and experts had certified that it would save the government money. But it ran into huge opposition -- not just from insurers, who didn’t want the competition, but from doctors, makers of drugs and medical devices, and hospitals, all of whom understood the proposal would cut into their revenues....

Bernie's vision vs. Hillary's

No, this grim political reality doesn’t mean Sanders or anybody else should stop advocating for single-payer. Progressive achievements like the minimum wage and civil rights began as ideas that the political establishment once dismissed as loopy. And the kind of reform that Sanders envisions would have a lot going for it. Single-payer works quite well abroad and a version of it could work here too -- even if, as Harold Pollack and Matthew Yglesias noted recently at Vox, it would ultimately require compromises and trade-offs that supporters rarely acknowledge.

But voters comparing Sanders and Hillary Clinton, who has proposed bolstering the Affordable Care Act rather than replacing it, should be clear about the choice they face. This isn’t a contest between a candidate who can deliver health care nirvana and one who is willing to settle for less. It’s a contest between a candidate imagining a world without political or policy constraints, and one grappling with them; between a candidate talking about what he hopes the health care system will look like someday, and one focused on what she can actually achieve now.

Todays_Illusion

(1,209 posts)
134. That is the kind of hopelessness and capitulation to power we have already overdosed on.
Fri Jan 29, 2016, 04:06 AM
Jan 2016

And is an echo of what Hillary said and I am paraphrasing, You aren't going to get what you want, baby, You have to take what the rich will toss your way.

They call it pragmatism I call it surrender.

Let's vote for Bernie, and how can we badger the DNC to find us some liberal candidates for Senators and Representatives. I am finished with conservative Democratic elected betrayers.

Marrah_G

(28,581 posts)
135. We have to try
Fri Jan 29, 2016, 04:22 AM
Jan 2016

and then try again, and again, and again.

Pragmatism only works so much, at some point idealism needs to step up and force change. Civil rights, womens right to vote, lgbt rights, none of these were changed because people behaved and quietly worked within the system. Thank goodness they didn't give up. They stood up and shouted to everyone they could reach with their voices. More and more joined in until change came.

People will often sit back and say nothing until enough people stand up and then they feel safe enough to stand up.

There is a line in one of my faiths "prayers" (for lack of a better word) that says "Keep pure your highest ideal; strive ever toward it; let naught stop you or turn you aside."

I think these are wise words.

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