Dear DU: Please stop echoing the European far right when it comes to immigration.

[redgreenandblue]

As a German/American dual citizen who is currently in Germany, it pains me to see fellow liberals go places where even the xenophobe wing of the German Christian Democrats won't go in public. I know most people mean well, but it looks foolish.

No, there isn't a wave of crimes committed by immigrants against Germans. And no, the government, the police and the media are not conspiring to make the crisis look less bad than it is.

The truth of the matter is:
1) Immigrants/refugees are no less likely than Germans to commit crimes.
2) Right now there are about 30 suspects concerning the attacks in Cologne. Much less than the the three to four digit figures that get thrown around.
Contrast that to over 900 attacks against refugee homes so far. (why is no one talking about that??)
3) Problems stemming from differences of "culture" are mild.
4) Germany can handle it. Really. There is in fact not much of a crisis to be seen. Life goes on as normal except for the occasional remark in the news.
5) Except for the usual suspects (non-nazis, xenophobes, hoolingan who like to set shit on fire) not many people are flipping the fuck out, so Americans shouldn't either. Lots of young people are in fact volunteering to help out.

[Bonx]

1. RE "Immigrants/refugees are no less likely than Germans to commit crimes."

interesting if true. Do you have a source for this ?
EDIT: 'no less likely' is confusing here. Can you clarify ?

[redgreenandblue]

3. This was reported by Juergen Todenhoefer as being a figure release by the BKA.

He is usually a reliable source.

[FSogol]

4. I dunno about Germany, but that is true in most countries. In the US,

But harsh immigration policies are not effective in fighting crime because—as numerous studies over the past 100 years have shown—immigrants are less likely to commit crimes or be behind bars than the native-born, and high rates of immigration are not associated with higher rates of crime.

From the Immigration Policy Center
www.immigrationpolicy.org/issues/crime

[Bad Dog]

2. Blaming some PC cover up.

Is a lot easier than confronting one's own bigotry. You're right, supposed American liberals are using the same rhetoric as far right Europeans.

[mwrguy]

5. The amount of anti-refugee bigotry on here has been astounding

Thanks for posting this.

[eissa]

13. Some of the posts would make the likes of LePen and Trump proud

Are there some bad apples? No doubt. In those cases, send them back. But to generalize about ALL immigrants, many of whom are war refugees fleeing atrocities, is a stretch.

[LittleBlue]

6. Dear OP: Please stop trying to shut down legitimate concerns

by implying that only those on the right have these concerns.

The American right believes in the First Amendment. Should we oppose it for that reason? Obviously not.

[closeupready]

7. I suspect like me, most on DU agree with you, and simply trash most threads

involving immigration discussions.

So while it may appear at times like DU supports far right responses to immigration, do not be deceived - I refuse to talk with bigots, racists, and Islamophobes. See how easy that is? Just don't get involved here, simples.

K&R

[pnwmom]

8. One question. Wouldn't be number of suspects be a function of how many

men they've been able to identify -- as opposed to the much higher number if men who reportedly participated in the attacks?

[redgreenandblue]

10. That is correct. The total number may be as high as 70, many of which were not refugees...

... but connected to the "pickpocket scene" of Cologne.

Here a link to an article that unfortunately is in German.

http://www.zeit.de/gesellschaft/zeitgeschehen/2016-01/koeln-silvester-ermittlungen-innenministerium

[pnwmom]

11. The article says that hundreds of women were sexually assaulted,

so I would think it likely that more than 70 men were involved.

I used Chrome translate, which is clunky, but this part seems pretty clear:

Were the deeds sexually motivated or was it rather to enrich? Apparently that is different from offender to offender. Hundreds of professional women were sexually assaulted, without having been also robbed.And also hundreds of times pedestrians were robbed, without being thereby sexually tackled.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

69. Cologne police force couldn't overtake "as high as 70 men"

This went on for quite some time, and there were so many men involved, apparently the police didn't believe they could do anything about it.

Or was that it they didn't want to do anything about it because it wasn't politically correct?

[redgreenandblue]

71. I can assure you they did not "do nothing because it wasn't politically correct".

I don't know where you got that.

More than likely, due to the huge crowds that always gather on New Years, it was hard for them to realize what was going on and respond in time. It is very easy to disappear into the crowd under such circumstances. It is not like those guys actively tried to pick a fight with the police.

[Amaya]

12. I have many family

and friends there and they say the opposite... hmmm

[closeupready]

16. Right, because when it comes to hating minorities, anecdotal data is reliable.

[Amaya]

17. Hating, who said anything about hating?

[tabasco]

19. Which is exactly what was posted in the OP. n/t

[pampango]

14. Found a good article at Deutsche Welle with some insight from social scientists.

The motivation for the current anti-Merkel sentiment, Wagner said, is both rational and irrational. On the one hand, she is the political figurehead and thus accountable for government policy; however, the reactionary way in which her public perception has changed suggests social psychological processes are at work. "Human beings strive for simplicity - simple answers - in times of crisis where collective fear is rife. Instead of weighing the complexity of a situation, the answer most often found by the mob is that some entity - this can be a leader like Merkel or even a group of people like the refugees - is to blame, and as soon as the crowd is convinced of this guilt, that entity has to go."

This is all the more proof, according to Steve Reicher, one of Europe's most prolific writers on social psychology, that these fears harken back to deep-seated fantasies regarding immigrants. "What happened in Cologne has turned migrants into the quintessential Other," Reicher told DW. "If you look back to 19th century colonial views, in all cultures there were these really strong notions of the invasive, the dangerous, the rampantly sexual and lascivious migrant. And that is precisely the horrifying and extremely striking image invoked by what happened on NYE in Cologne."

Reicher, who teaches at St Andrews, juxtaposed the current atmosphere in the wake of the Cologne attacks with the way people reacted to the image of Aylan Kurdi, the three-year-old Syrian refugee who washed up on a beach in Turkey, to show the extent to which collective views can vacillate. "Back then, it wasn't that our opinion of migrants had suddenly changed. It was much rather that we saw people as migrants - or not. The migrant is by definition an outsider, the Other. But when we saw the image of Aylan Kurdi, we saw the little boy and not the migrant. Things have switched back now, and we are faced with a representation of the migrant as a profound danger, a faceless horde."

As the refugee crisis intensified over the past half year, the tone in the German media with regard to Merkel gradually became more critical, but after the NYE attacks, it changed fundamentally. "Public opinion with regard to immigrants and refugees right now is completely influenced by how the situation is reported: over the past few months, many people have changed their minds about refugees because when they read negative reports in the paper they begin to believe that the people around them feel this way too."

http://www.dw.com/en/has-mob-mentality-taken-hold-in-germany-after-cologne-attacks/a-18994429

This insight into a German view of immigrants and "others" is quite similar to what is going on with the American right. Trump's appeal rests largely on &quot h)uman beings strive for simplicity - simple answers - in times of crisis where collective fear is rife." Demagogues are good at providing simple answers (usually blaming some group of 'others' - in his case, Mexicans, Muslims, Chinese, etc.) for complex problems. And the fear of the majority population of "the rampantly sexual and lascivious migrant" (or minorities in general) used to be a part of white culture in the US, perhaps still is.

Anyway, it is useful to see how some social scientists look at the anti-refugee backlash in Germany.

[pault420]

15. Sorry but internationally speaking there has been A LOT of violence by muslims

Never mind the beheading of the soldier and underground bombings in the UK and Spain. You had the two most recent attacks in France. There's been a string of hotel and mall rampages internationally, where many were killed. You have an influx of refugees coming from a war zone with no way of verifying who is who.

Even Switzerland is having some issues with recent muslim immigration.

While it's all one screwed up situation, you can't blame Germans for having some apprehension.

I blame Merkel, she basically said Germany was an open door to the refugees, it's apparent they didn't know how many were coming and didn't seem to do any real preparation to make integration easier. Even after all these months the German authorities seem to be dilly dallying along as far as getting them processed.

[Bad Dog]

18. There's also been some really good comedy.

Categorising terrorists only by their religion effectively demonises the 99.9% who just go about their business not hurting anyone. The IRA were Christian terrorists but they were never referred to as that.

[LeftyMom]

31. Your argument fails because arithmetic.

How many Muslims are there in the world? How many of them are engaged in the type of behavior you mention? (Hint: the fact that you had to name incidents over several years and three continents just to come up with a modest list is a sign that your argument fails on a level of basic math.) We won't even get into the non-monolithic nature of the Muslim world or the fact that the vast majority of victims of this sort of violence are also Muslims, because clearly you're going to need to grasp one simple concept at a time.

Here's the deal: Europe NEEDS refugees because an aging population and a high degree of education means that a lot of manual labor jobs- even skilled labor work for good companies- are difficult to fill even at high wages. (Siemens has a big plant in my neighborhood that they're constantly expanding because Californians are cheaper to employ than Germans.) Syrians and Iraqis are a comparatively well-educated and prosperous population displaced by circumstance, as immigrants and future taxpayers go a country in need of workers could do a hell of a lot worse. Merkel knows that, and that's why she threw open the door. If you thought it was out of the goodness of her heart you obviously never paid attention to her career before that point.

[muriel_volestrangler]

40. You 'blame Merkel'? When you're talking about incidents years ago in other countries?

Do you have any evidence that the attacks in Germany had anything to do with the speed of processing? I ask because I can't see how that could possibly be.

[JI7]

66. you blame merkel for UK, SPain, and France attacks ?

[LeftishBrit]

67. There has undoubtedly been a lot of political violence by Muslim terror organizations...

Most of the victims have also been Muslims.

Muslim terror organizations are not the same thing as Muslim refugees: indeed most of the refugees are fleeing FROM Isis and similar groups.

Do some bad guys 'glom onto' the refugee groups? - Yes, I daresay they do; but they make up a pretty small proportion of the whole. Just as some native Europaeans are neo-Nazis or just plain thugs, but that does not mean that any group should be equated with their worst elements.

In the UK, not long ago, there was a lot of political violence by the Provisional IRA and the Protestant 'paramilitary' (i.e. terrorist) organizations in Northern Ireland. They were Catholics and Protestants, not Muslims.

And in any case, how do you get to blame Merkel for violence in the UK, especially the London Underground bombings, which happened considerably before she got elected?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

20. 1) Thousands of Germans do not run around sexually assaulting women

2) 30 suspects have been arrested. That is not the same as disproving witness accounts that thousands were involved and you know that.

3) Mass, mob sexual assault is not "mild." Screw you for saying it is.

4) Germany can handle it but the authorities wanted to not handle it and pretend it didn't happen until outcry became too much to ignore.

5) If you're claiming only Nazis and xenophobes care about mass, mob sexual assault -- 1) screw you 2) you're effectively claiming Progressives care more about appearances than sexual assault victims

[hifiguy]

22. All of this!

And the left's sticking its fingers in ears, going "bla, bla, bla, can't hear you" and sticking its head in the sand in the name of making cheap virtue points for "tolerance" while ignoring this very real issue is doing more for the Euro far right than anything else. This IS an issue and it is NOT going to go away.

Why should one European citizen have her freedom to conduct herself as she pleases impinged upon by these barbaric assholes?

[pampango]

23. "Why should one European citizen have her freedom to conduct herself as she pleases impinged upon by

these barbaric assholes?" Of course not. (By 'barbaric assholes' I take it you mean those criminals who attack women.)

And the left's sticking its fingers in ears, going "bla, bla, bla, can't hear you" and sticking its head in the sand in the name of making cheap virtue points for "tolerance" ...

What is the left's solution? To punish/deport those convicted of crimes against women, gays, minorities, etc.? I think most liberals would support that.

Or deport all Muslims and ban them from entering the country? I am not sure who supports that.

[hifiguy]

32. Convicting 50-100 out of a mob of some thousand men

will do precious little to quell the righteous anger and outrage of the people.

And they will turn rightward if the left doesn't do something meaningful.

Germany's first responsibility is to its citizens, not the immigrants.

[pampango]

34. So what is the appropriate 'meaningful' liberal reponse, if prosecuting criminals is not

sufficient?

[smirkymonkey]

63. Hear, hear!

[leftynyc]

39. When you try and

make it a decision between two miles apart positions, you're not being honest. Of course find, try and convict and perhaps deport the criminals - that's a no brainer. But what is the problem with looking at the vetting process and making it better? That's a far cry from the "deport all muslims and ban them from entering the country". You're making a very false comparison. The FIRST job of the government is to protect their citizens and if women can't walk around without worrying about attacks, that's a problem that needs fixing BEFORE we deal with immigration policies.

[muriel_volestrangler]

41. But look at what hifiguy claimed "the left" as a group is doing:

'the left's sticking its fingers in ears, going "bla, bla, bla, can't hear you" and sticking its head in the sand in the name of making cheap virtue points for "tolerance"'

This is the problem DU has at the moment. You get ridiculous attacks on the whole of the left, by a DUer, and when someone replies saying it's ridiculous, someone like you accuses them of 'not being honest', when you give the initial idiocy a pass. You didn't say what hifiguy says is 'false', though it obviously is.

[leftynyc]

42. The reports about

how the attacks in Cologne were at first ignored and the authorities had to be dragged into acknowledging what happened, and when they admit it's because they were afraid of the right taking advantage, it showed that women came second - that it was more important to beat the right than to protect women. That is not acceptable. Merkel's immigration policy of a complete open door is a disaster - and has made it harder for women to live their lives in Germany. The mayor giving women advice like always being in a group just made it all worse - she was blaming the victims. Also not acceptable.

As far as what hifiguy said - I agree with him. There were plenty of DUers, perhaps not a majority but I'm not sure of that, who first used phrases like "if the women are to be believed" and then immediately went to the place so many on the left find a legitimate argument - saying people worried about unfettered immigration were right wingers, that we agreed with Donald Trump. You HAVE to have seen these threads - those posters are merely trying to shut down the discussion. That's not acceptable either.

[muriel_volestrangler]

44. You blame yourself, then, being 'leftynyc'?

You are 'the left' that hifiguy was talking about. No, of course it was not anywhere near 'a majority' of DUers, and I don't think it was 'plenty' either. I think that vast majority of DUers on the threads immediately condemned the attacks.

When you yourself say a DUer is 'not being honest', aren't you just as guilty of trying to shut down conversation too?

[leftynyc]

47. They condemned the attack, yes

But immediately went to - we can't blame the immigration policy (if you don't see the open door policy of Germany as a complete disaster, you're simply not paying attention or don't care about women - I'll say that out loud and without mercy). When is pointing out that someone is putting words into another's mouth, or assigning nefarious motives to a position trying to shut things down? I'm asking them to explain themselves in an honest way.

[muriel_volestrangler]

48. "putting words into another's mouth, or assigning nefarious motives"

You mean like saying "if you don't see the open door policy of Germany as a complete disaster, you're simply not paying attention or don't care about women"?

You are shooting yourself in the foot, repeatedly.

[leftynyc]

49. WTF are you talking about?

How is that putting words into someone's mouth? Did you see the posts DEFENDING that mayor who called on the women to change THEIR behavior because of these attacks? You don't see that as a condemnation of women? Why the fuck not? We certainly condemn the right when they do it - why the different outcome when liberals do it? Shooting myself in the foot? Nonsense - I'm pointing out hypocrisy and you don't like it. That's not my problem. Now don't forget to call me a right winger for condemning the open door policy of Germany - it's become de rigeuer around here - just like this OP did.

[Jim Beard]

50. I see the extreme left in a circular fireing squad

I have posted my opinions on the other threads, so I am not going to wast my time here except I don't make judgements based of someones quotes of ORDERLY IMMIGRATION, NOT MASSIVE IMMIGRATION that is now happening. No credentials are checked upon entry, so anyone is in their country.

I have documents of what happens, you don't if you choose to ignore US History

Drag your your selfs into a search engine and learn about the Marial Boatlift in the US in 1977.

They can in by the droves. Castro emptied all the prisons and mental institutions and shipped them to the US. Places like snopes say that a small percentage of them were criminals but mercy what were criminals were damn good ones.

One of the wonderful loving immigrants ventured into a Eastern New Mexico town and MURDERED IN COLD BLOOD two women that worked at a convenience store. They were instructed to give the money away if robbed but that isn't what this nice immigrant did. He blew their ALL OVER THE STORE.

I don't forget that shit and if there were no boatlift, those women would still be alive. You are not going to change my mind about nothing on this subject. Germany is no a powder keg waiting to blow

Since I know most of you could care less about search engines since you have made up your mind. Might do some reading about the inspiration of the movie "Scarface". It is about those wonderful turned beautiful Miami into a bloody nightmare with wonderful Cubans let in with open gates.

[leftynyc]

53. Not really sure why

you aimed this at me. I'm not part of the far left and I agree that a complete open door policy (like Germany had until recently) is a disaster waiting to happen.

[Jim Beard]

59. Sorry

I picked the wrong one to reply, please accept my apologies.

[leftynyc]

62. No apology necessary

Just wanted to make sure your comment went to the person you were aiming for. Peace.

[LeftishBrit]

68. Indeed

Anyone who commits serious crimes such as violence against women should be punished severely, and, if a non-citizen, should be deported.

Refugees and other migrants have duties as well as rights, and this includes respecting the laws of the country in which they live; if they aren't prepared to do so, then they should not live there.

This doesn't mean that ALL members of the same ethnic or national groups should be punished or excluded for the behaviour of some.

[redgreenandblue]

36. Agains: Immigrants are not more likely to commit crimes than non-immigrants.

Do you comprehend that? It most likely implies that "one European citizen's freedom to conduct herself" is not under a bigger threat because of immigration.

[nashville_brook]

30. +1000000

and then some.

[redgreenandblue]

35. Thanks for illustrating my point. I guess math is not your strongest subject?

"Immigrants are not more likely to commit crimes than non-immigrants" - Do you comprehend that statement?

And where did you pull that line about a "mob of thousands" from? I don't think serious estimates get anywhere close to that.

[Quantess]

37. Why are the swedish prisons filled with non-swedes, then?

You really like that one thesis of yours, but that thesis is weak.

http://muslimstatistics.wordpress.com/2015/03/19/sweden-77-6-percent-of-all-rapes-in-the-country-committed-by-muslim-males-making-up-2-percent-of-population/

[Denzil_DC]

46. You don't help any discussion by quoting a site like that as an authority.

From the article in question:

The foreign rape figures at 77.6% Muslim has been anonymously confirmed by Swedish polish in a phone conversation.

I assume "Swedish polish" should read "Swedish police. The site is sketchy about its statistical sources all round.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

43. When you you stop characterizing mob sexual assault as "mild" you might be worthy of a reply.

[leftynyc]

38. Well put

All the OP is doing is trying to further downplay what happened and accuse anyone who is concerned about wanting a good vetting process for those entering the US as being right wingers. It wont work. The left seemed to be perfectly okay with what the German police and authorities tried to do - cover this up - and now they're reaping the rewards of that disgusting calculation. That and trying to conflate a desire for better vetting with trying to keep all Muslims out.

[Democat]

54. Please, show some respect for rape gangs!

Otherwise, you're not a real liberal.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

56. "Otherwise, you're not a real liberal."

Whether deliberate or not you swerved in to a larger truth.

We're being told to subordinate concerns over mob sexual assault to worries about the RW gaining undo influence but all those voices are doing is pushing people who refuse to give a pass to mob sexual assault no allies except the RW.

It's as if someone who hates cops complains that you would call the cops to deal with a gang burglarizing your house and the mere suggestion that you would consider it means you are unworthy of their assistance.

[trotsky]

60. As to your #5...

there were "progressives" who seemed to care more about blasphemous cartoons than the Charlie Hebdo employees who were murdered for publishing them. So this kind of thing certainly isn't new.

[hifiguy]

65. And some of them were right here on DU.

[Odin2005]

21. The Neocons did a good job tying Islamophobia to the "New Atheist" movement.

Thus you have a lot of otherwise Progressive people spewing disgusting BS when it comes to Muslims because they have been conditioned to be bigots by people like Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris, and Ayaan Hersi Ali.

[Quantess]

24. How dare you use a name like Odin when speaking hypocritical garbage like that!

You take a Norse god's name, use it to make yourself look cool, and then post shit like this. Shame on you!

[Odin2005]

25. What the fuck does my username have to do with anything?

[Quantess]

27. When spewing opinions about religions, yes it does.

I happen to live in Sweden.

[Odin2005]

28. I'm Norwegian-American.

[Quantess]

33. Ja... och?

You should change your username, if you want to spout about things you have no knowledge of. Get over it.

[Jim Beard]

58. I think being from Norway, he does have more knowledge of it. They have had to give Arab immigrants

courses on female respect.

Look at how many people in our own party are apprehensive of unchecked massive immigration.

The hard right has their 100% support no immigration



The far left has not 100% according to this group but maybe 60-75%

So you tell me with all your wisdom, where the middle is going to land in a presidential election cycly at the end of a leaving unpopular Democratic president.

There is a challenger I fear that may actually win. I would have never though that a FAKE wrestler could be a TWO term governor of a moderate state. Trump can win and it is up to us.

And BTW Quantess, telling people to "GET OVER IT" is very rude and really borders on an attitude the women are fighting. Don't treat your allies that way!

[cpwm17]

29. It's slightly off-topic

but only barely.

Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris, and Ayaan Hersi Ali, all three Muslim hating neocons, are certainly part of the problem. They promote hatred and war, and give phony liberals cover to do the same. They are pro-violence, which makes them very much part of the problem with this world.

There is certainly some truth to the claims against some migrants, and the crimes they committed – though they were probably mostly economic migrants from north Africa.

[LeftyMom]

26. 6) The people at greatest risk are in warzones or being transported by human smugglers.

If you want to make people safer from rape the important thing is to bring them to a place of safety and stability, not exclude them or make their journeys more hazardous.

7) If your commenting history includes racism and hostility to women and suddenly you're very concerned about the safety of German women, nobody with a brain thinks your intentions are pure and sincere.

8) This is not the first migration of people in human history. You need a sense of perspective and a broader understanding of human behavior if anything that's happened so far surprises you.

[Metatron]

52. Very good points. n/t

[romanic]

45. "Lots of young people are in fact volunteering to help out."

Doing what, teaching a lesson on "How not to Grope 101"???

[Person 2713]

51. Thank you and if they looked at US crime breakdowns , they would be demanding white people

stop coming to the USA and stay out of parks and pools
I showed work people the comments on some earlier threads here and all (non Muslim ) were disgusted . One asked are you sure this DU is not a covert Trump site trying to get dem voters

[Democat]

55. You yourself are defending the far right if you are minimizing rape gangs

The men in these rape gangs are the far right. As long as you minimize or defend their actions, you are supporting the far right.

[smirkymonkey]

61. +1000

[hifiguy]

64. Ageed. And not one woman in any of the countries

that made the unfortunate and idiotic decision to accept young single males - should have to think twice about living their life as they please. But some will surely be scared and intimidated enough to take precautions to "prevent" these young "men" from attacking them for behaving like normal European women.

I really cannot believe the contortions into whoch some are twisting themselves to remain in denial about this.

[redgreenandblue]

72. Any German who is not "living their life as they please" because of refugees right now...

...has a much bigger problem than refugees. The paranoia simply has no base in reality. Cologne did not change that. You are still no more likely to be assaulted by a refugee than by a German.

I don't know where you get your information about a wide-spread problem with refugees existing in Germany. Care to share your sources?

[redgreenandblue]

73. If you believe there is a substantial problem with refugee rape gangs in Germany...

... to a point where the likelyhood of being assaulted by a refugee is higher than the likelyhood of being assaulted by a German, then you are badly misinformed.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

57. Well said. Stereotyping and xenophobia are typical of the far right. K&R

[Matrosov]

70. Anecdotal evidence

I have several friends in Germany with whom I communicate regularly. They live in places like Baden-Württemberg, Hessen, and Niedersachsen. These are very left leaning people, who welcomed the refugees with open arms initially.

Now they are starting to worry. Granted, the refugees account for maybe 1% to 2% of the overall population, but my friends feel like many of those refugees are simply running wild, because the government and police are afraid of keeping them under control, otherwise they might come across as Islamophobic.

Many are becoming disillusioned with the fact that the average refugee is treated far better than most unemployed and homeless Germans. They are becoming disillusioned with the fact that the average refugee is actually from places like North Africa and Afghanistan and Pakistan rather than Syria. Most of all, they are becoming disillusioned with the fact that the German system seems to care more about covering for the refugees than ensuring the safety of the average German, in particular the women and members of the LGBT community.

Of course, that's just based on what my progressive friends in Germany say. Anecdotal evidence. Something to think about