Malheur update, if you can stomach it

[central scrutinizer]

http://registerguard.com/rg/news/local/33982841-75/update-armed-group-plans-event-to-renounce-federal-land-policy.html.csp

BURNS — The leader of an armed group occupying a national wildlife refuge near Burns plans to have a ceremony Saturday for ranchers to renounce federal ownership of public land and tear up their federal grazing contracts.

On Friday, Ammon Bundy met briefly with a federal agent as authorities attempt to resolve the three-week-old standoff over federal land policies. But Bundy left because the agent wouldn’t talk with him in front of the media.

snip

He also questioned the FBI’s authority. “If you haven’t got sanction from the sheriff, there’s no reason to be talking to you,” Bundy said.

snip

Harney County Judge Steve Grasty said in a statement Friday that many locals “are incredulous about the federal government’s fear of taking action against the lawlessness that we are witnessing on a daily basis.”

End excerpt. In the print edition, there is another fucking picture of some law enforcement official shaking hands with this asshole. Makes me want to scream. They should grab his hand, twist it around his back, slap the cuffs on and frog march his ass into the paddy wagon.

[Bettie]

1. This is never going to end

and there will be other "events" too, since the Feds have proven unwilling to act.

[RKP5637]

5. The Feds appear to be afraid of them, or are some siding with them. I'm starting to wonder WTF is

really going on.

[LiberalElite]

9. This will sound like more CT but I have to wonder

if the rw has infiltrated the govt agencies and has, in fact, taken over while we were all distracted by shiny objects.

[RKP5637]

19. It well could be. Guys like this seem to get a free pass, yet others get hammered! It all looks

very biased and selective. Also, this might be far more widespread than many realize and the feds are trying to not start some kind of civil war or whatever. These guy have guns, so they get a free pass, peaceful protesters with no weapons get the shit beat out of them by TPTB.

[LiberalElite]

20. As an (maybe not so great) analogy: The rw termites have

eaten through the wood frame structure of the U.S.A. and one day - someone's going to step on the kitchen floor and find themselves in the cellar. Then it'll be too late to do anything about it but tear it down and start over.

[RKP5637]

23. That's where it seems to be headed. Any progressive cause gets beat to death. Stuff like this gets

a free pass.

[villager]

27. That's happening. Look for the "United" States to be broken into separate polities by mid-century

...or so.

Add in the pressures of simultaneous environmental and "empire" collapse, and it may not even take that long...

[StandingInLeftField]

30. Anyone watch the rather bad series "Revolution?"

I can see that happening without the need for an EMP taking out all electricity.

[Eleanors38]

35. The FR is good at bitch-slapping (no offense, please), and it works...

...because they have determined -- rather accurately -- that what constitutes the present Democrstic Party is easily cowed; they will milk this for every drop, then come back for more.

The question for progs and libs is more long-term: Does our outlook include a style/ideology which does not suffer punk extremists lightly, or is it More soft whining and hand-wringing? Clearly, the FR believes it has the answer.

[RKP5637]

37. Yep! There's a lot of truth in what you've said! n/t

[liberalhistorian]

46. Get some unarmed BLM and OWS

protesters in there, as well as some old hippies, and they'll be there in full force faster than you can say "double standard hypocrisy." There, problem solved.

[Bettie]

47. Yeah, the Feds will cheer as the Bundy's get to

killin'.

How sad is it that I'm not sure if that's sarcasm or not?

[awoke_in_2003]

50. Start a rumor that they are starting a pot dispensary...

that will kick the feds into action.

[liberalhistorian]

52. Yes, that would

work just as well!

[RKP5637]

2. Where is Obama in all of this? These guys are advocating the overthrow of the US government and

are taking action, all we hear is silence, for the most part, from TPTB.

[SammyWinstonJack]

48. Thought I read on DU that Obama was leaving it up to

local authorities to handle.

[mdbl]

3. they need to be thrown in jail, all of them

If someone ripped off a candy bar in a 7-11, he/she would be in jail. Why are these morons being treated any differently?

[MH1]

8. Some guy in NY was allegedly selling bootleg cigarettes. He's dead.

Eric Garner, I think his name was.

about the not knowing his name part.

[avebury]

4. A this point I have no respect for the Feds

If they think that standing back and letting idiots like this break the law over and over will not encourage further incidents like this as time goes by they have lost their ever loving minds.

Actions must have consequence. Back when they went after the Bundys the Feds back out and let the Bundys win. And now we have another incident. They need to put their big boy and girl pants on and do their job. They should not be allowing these idiots to freely come and go but pick and choose the right times to start rounding them up. They need to cut off access to the site, cut the utilities and let them run through their supplies. Don't let them leave unless they come out unarmed and arrest them as they leave.

[2naSalit]

24. A this point I have no respect for the Feds

And that is part of their objective.

[B Calm]

6. He met with a federal agent and they didn't arrest him! OMG

[nruthie]

7. Apparently the federal government just doesn't care.

3 weeks and these freaks seem to be the ones who are calling the shots and doing as they damn well please. Terrorizing the locals and tearing up a wildlife refuge is fine. Pretty sobering to realize the federal government can't be bothered to protect us.

[malthaussen]

10. You know, a fella named John Brown once took over a federal facility...

... that didn't end too well for him and his gang. Ironically, it was Robert E. Lee and J.E.B. Stuart who took him down...

-- Mal

[KingCharlemagne]

39. My mind immediately leapt to Brown upon learning of this incident. Lee

headed up a Virginia state militia, IIRC, and not a federal force.

That said, I believe Brown and Bundy is a false analogy and here is why. Brown, in attacking chattel slavery, threatened one of the foundation stones of American capitalism. Bundy, by contrast, seeks to privatize lands in the public domain. In so doing, Bundy hardly threatens American capitalism. In a perverse way, Bundy's escapade actually serves the interests of capital.

This may explain why Brown's raid was brutally suppressed, whereas Bundy's is molly-coddled.

[malthaussen]

41. John Brown took over the engine house at Harper's Ferry...

... a Federal arsenal, and was captured by U.S. Marines under Lee without a moment of hesitation. (In those days, Marines were often led by West Point officers, rather than now when they are from the Naval Academy) He wanted to start an armed insurgency, too. There are plenty of references to the raid, but here's the Wikipedia link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Brown's_raid_on_Harpers_Ferry

The raid actually raises some interesting questions about state's rights and the jurisdiction of the Federal government. Brown's raid was considered a "declaration of war against the Commonwealth of Virginia," but because the arsenal was a Federal installation, he was also quite clearly levying war on the United States. And so are those idiots in Oregon.

As for the slaves and capitalism, the abolitionists would not agree with you, and most of them were capitalists. Brown has always been a hero to the abolitionists (the song "John Brown's Body" was the anthem of one of the most abolitionist of Massachusetts regiments, which caused Julia Ward Howe to write new lyrics, giving us "The Battle Hymn of the Republic. Or so the story goes." (the story of the song is much more complex and interesting than that tidy little account, however)

-- Mal

[KingCharlemagne]

49. Thanks for the detail and link. I had forgotten that Lee commanded U.S. Marines

Last edited Sun Jan 24, 2016, 11:18 AM - Edit history (1)

in the counterattack (surely not one of the USMC's better chapters in its history, eh? ).

I definitely agree that the abolitionists were capitalists; they could not help but be, since scientific socialism was still awaiting birth. However, in attacking the Arsenal, Brown and his raiders were not only attacking the Commonwealth of Virginia or the U.S. They were attacking a symbol of the fundamental property relations peculiar to American capitalism at the time, i. e., chattel slavery. The contrast with the Bundy brigands could not be starker.

[phantom power]

11. If he hasn't already, it would be helpful if the local sheriff would tell them to get the hell out.

I don't actually believe for a second that they'd really leave, but it would help to make it perfectly clear that they're full of shit.

[nruthie]

12. The local sheriff is powerless.

The feds are the ones who are "in control" here. So far Bundy is the one giving the orders.

[phantom power]

13. Sure, but the point is Bundy's gang claims they will obey the local sheriff.

So call their bluff about that. He may have no actual authority but there's nothing preventing him from making an announcement to the effect that he and the rest of the county don't want them there.

[Bluenorthwest]

16. He already has. You are attacking him for not doing what he did last week.

Jan 11-

http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/01/oregon_standoff_harney_county.html

[phantom power]

18. I'm not attacking him. I was making a suggestion.

If he's already done it, that's great.

[RKP5637]

38. I think he's done that a couple of times. These thugs are intent on staying until their

demands are met. The FBI wanted to meet with them, they wouldn't unless it was televised or something. Then they went looking for the sheriff. They were told the sheriff was not available, and for good reason, they want the sheriff and judge in their citizens court to be tried for crimes. Other sheriffs did meet with them as I understand. It seems it's getting close to the time for the Feds to take serious action.

[phantom power]

14. And another thing....

Since the feds are content to let these assholes come and go as they please, it must mean that they are entering the sheriff's county jurisdiction every time they head into town to pick up more supplies. I assume he can't arrest anybody unless they actually commit a crime off federal land but he can make them unwelcome. Which, again, they loudly claim to be respectful of. So make it clear that their claim is bullshit.

[SwankyXomb]

36. Vagrancy, public nuisance, contempt of cop

there are plenty of random charges they could use to arrest them.

[Bluenorthwest]

15. The Sheriff has done so, as has the local community, the Governor of Oregon and other elected

officials. It is already clear to those people that they are full of shit, Bundy said they'd leave if the local people asked them to, then when they asked them to Bundy did not leave. What you are calling for has already happened and continues to happen.

[phantom power]

17. It would be fun to get Bundy on record about that.

What is his particular bullshit rationalization for not doing what they said they'd do?

[Bluenorthwest]

21. It is on record, all of it. Taped video meetings, the works. All you are calling for has been done

I think that you need to acknowledge that. You are yammering at the Sheriff and the people to do what they have been doing all along and that's shitty. It really is. It's not being honest about what they are doing, it is spreading false rumor.

It seems to me that Bundy and many on DU who want swift confrontation share a similar view of government as pernicious. You are criticizing local authorities for not doing what they are in fact doing. Who does that serve, exactly? How does that expedite resolution?

[phantom power]

28. Err, OK... I acknowledge, commander!

[StandingInLeftField]

31. You can't "expedite resolution"...

unless both parties are willing to negotiate. And that has been tried and has failed.

[Megahurtz]

34. There's really nothing to negotiate

with terrorists. And if the Feds give them anything that they demand, they will keep going
and try to take other land by armed force, and the masses of other armed wingnut followers will join them.

This is a very dangerous situation with the potential to get much worse if they don't shut down Bundy's operations soon.

[Shrike47]

53. He asked them to leave on January 6 at a public meeting. They haven't.

[spanone]

22. fuck these criminal clowns....

[Tsiyu]

25. Patience is a virtue

There are valid reasons for waiting out a few more cockroaches.

These people don't really have a plan. They just want glory and free land. The massive egos involved will start clashing with each other when they aren't actively engaged with their deluded idea of "enemies."

For once I agree with the Mormon Church. We are blessed to live in a nation where we change leadership via elections and not through bloodshed. People may lie, cheat and steal to win, but the process is essentially bloodless.

The Bundy-ites and others like them truly want to see might make right. They hate the American way of doing things. They aren't patriots, but anarchists who want to use firearms and weaponry to get what they want. (They need to go somewhere and form their own nation. This one is already formed, thank you.)

Let them all come crawling as they think it's safe. If you get my drift.

It's always better to calmly try to de-escalate things. No one wants a massive loss of life. Be patient and imagine the best outcome, even if the law is being unevenly applied.

[StandingInLeftField]

32. I admire your positive attitude

I regret your naiveté.

[Nay]

33. What everyone is pointing out is that law enforcement all over the country is

showing no patience at all for anybody else (not even for innocents), but somehow these guys who are in-your-face taking over federal lands with guns -- well, they're getting a pass. So far, a three-week pass. And they're getting handshakes, backslaps, and respect from the so-called LE community. They are allowed to come and go, get supplies, etc. It's mind-blowing, and I have the horrible feeling that there are enough LEOs out there that agree with these morons. RWers tend to congregate into such occupations anyway, but we may have too many of them in policing now.

[RKP5637]

40. I've been wondering about that. It seems they might all be cut out of the same

piece of cloth.

[GeorgeGist]

26. Maybe Loretta Lynch is playing 3D chess ...

but in view of the BundyBunch shut out of Eric Holder in Nevada, I doubt it.

[Lizzie Poppet]

29. “If you haven’t got sanction from the sheriff, there’s no reason to be talking to you”

Of course, they've (conveniently) decided that Sheriff Ward has "surrendered" his constitutional power to the feds. Imagine that...

[Arugula Latte]

42. These assholes hate people who want "free stuff" -- except for themselves.

[phantom power]

45. The biggest mistake people make is treating them like they have actual principles.

They don't care about "freedom" or "small government" or "not giving handouts" or "authority of local sheriffs." What they care about is being allowed to do whatever the hell they want, and take whatever the hell they want, with no interference. They're just gun-slinging thugs, who threaten anybody who stands in their way with violence.

[DirkGently]

43. The militia takeover is costing Oregon about $100,000 a week.

The governor is begging the federal government for help.

Brown, speaking at a news conference where she also laid out her 2016 policy agenda, also said Oregon officials should "scrub" the state's budget next month to help offset the costs of the standoff. She put those ongoing expenses at $100,000 a week, with even more money spent during the first week of the standoff.

"This situation is absolutely intolerable and it must be resolved immediately," Brown said, saying she'll continue to press her case with the White House and FBI and also seek federal reimbursements. "The very fabric of this community is being ripped apart."

She confirmed that federal authorities had asked her office and other local officials to say as little as possible about the occupation to keep from adding any fuel to the occupiers' rhetorical fire. But that didn't stop her from speaking out all the same.

"This spectacle of lawlessness must end," Brown said.

http://www.oregonlive.com/politics/index.ssf/2016/01/kate_brown_oregon_should_help.html

[Vinca]

44. Why are these assholes still being treated with kid gloves?

The feds should move in, arrest them and if they resist with firearms, respond in kind. There's a fine line between martyr and idiot with this crowd.

[underpants]

51. You can't renounce a contract. Reminds of Michael Scott (The Office) declaring bankruptcy

Actually you CAN renounce a contract but that means you give up the rights (the benefits to you) in the contract