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Tue Feb 2, 2016, 02:56 PM

 

Our "youth" (actually 18-20 year old adults) and their safe places in colleges

This has been a topic of debate both in the media and here on DU. I have wondered how my wife, a junior college English/critical thinking instructor, has been untouched by this debate the last 2 years. The last time I tried to bring up the topic she instantly shut me down. That changed today.

Yesterday she brought up a simple exercise... "lets have an in class discussion, and lets stereotype men instead of women" (I am told it was even presented sarcastically, which sounds like her nature) she started the exercise by saying "men have yucky facial hair" .... definitely something she would say.

She is in deep shit now with the JC admin over that. One student complained about this exercise in critical thinking and her initial prompt.... fucking seriously? She gives me shit about my facial hair on a daily basis, but when she says that single, un-offensive line to start a dialogue, some special snow flake gets offended to the point where her job is being threatened? JFC.

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Reply Our "youth" (actually 18-20 year old adults) and their safe places in colleges (Original post)
GummyBearz Feb 2016 OP
msongs Feb 2016 #1
GummyBearz Feb 2016 #8
1939 Feb 2016 #50
Nye Bevan Feb 2016 #2
backtomn Feb 2016 #3
GummyBearz Feb 2016 #6
backtomn Feb 2016 #9
GummyBearz Feb 2016 #11
backtomn Feb 2016 #14
GummyBearz Feb 2016 #20
backtomn Feb 2016 #24
GummyBearz Feb 2016 #27
lumberjack_jeff Feb 2016 #33
GummyBearz Feb 2016 #36
lumberjack_jeff Feb 2016 #40
GummyBearz Feb 2016 #44
lumberjack_jeff Feb 2016 #48
GummyBearz Feb 2016 #49
lumberjack_jeff Feb 2016 #60
GummyBearz Feb 2016 #62
liberal_at_heart Feb 2016 #7
GummyBearz Feb 2016 #15
backtomn Feb 2016 #19
smirkymonkey Feb 2016 #16
liberal_at_heart Feb 2016 #21
GummyBearz Feb 2016 #30
pnwmom Feb 2016 #32
Adrahil Feb 2016 #43
Iris Feb 2016 #55
erpowers Feb 2016 #61
cwydro Feb 2016 #4
liberal_at_heart Feb 2016 #5
cwydro Feb 2016 #10
liberal_at_heart Feb 2016 #13
cwydro Feb 2016 #18
backtomn Feb 2016 #22
liberal_at_heart Feb 2016 #23
cwydro Feb 2016 #25
liberal_at_heart Feb 2016 #26
Ford F-150 Feb 2016 #57
Snobblevitch Feb 2016 #12
GummyBearz Feb 2016 #17
backscatter712 Feb 2016 #38
Snobblevitch Feb 2016 #45
GummyBearz Feb 2016 #46
GreatGazoo Feb 2016 #28
GummyBearz Feb 2016 #29
hifiguy Feb 2016 #42
The2ndWheel Feb 2016 #31
liberal_at_heart Feb 2016 #34
romanic Feb 2016 #35
liberal_at_heart Feb 2016 #39
backscatter712 Feb 2016 #37
hifiguy Feb 2016 #41
PersonNumber503602 Feb 2016 #47
floriduck Feb 2016 #51
Binkie The Clown Feb 2016 #52
hfojvt Feb 2016 #53
GummyBearz Feb 2016 #56
Iris Feb 2016 #54
FLPanhandle Feb 2016 #58
GummyBearz Feb 2016 #59

Response to GummyBearz (Original post)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 03:03 PM

1. men have yucky facial hair...is "inoffensive" lol

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Response to msongs (Reply #1)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 03:21 PM

8. hehe

 

I speak gud

And my facial hair is amazing in my opinion. No one could possibly be offended by it :p

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Response to msongs (Reply #1)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 10:12 PM

50. If I go a day without shaving

my wife thinks my facial hair is offensive.

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Response to GummyBearz (Original post)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 03:05 PM

2. Wow. The situation in our colleges is worse than I thought. (nt)

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Response to GummyBearz (Original post)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 03:06 PM

3. How is this a critical thinking exercise?

I really don't get how you see this as an appropriate discussion, but I will give you a hint.........what if a male teacher started a critical thinking exercise to stereotype women? The he could talk about how their hips are wide. I would not have been offended, except that she was wasting my education dollars on something so silly. I think that she could have found a better discussion topic.

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Response to backtomn (Reply #3)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 03:17 PM

6. I can take a guess

 

Women get stereotyped a lot. An important part of critical thinking is recognizing bias. So having a discussion on (sarcastically) stereotyping men kinda fits in with the idea of recognizing bias, and flipping it upside down.

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Response to GummyBearz (Reply #6)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 03:22 PM

9. How does this help with "recognizing bias"?

The point was to specifically say biased things, so you wouldn't need to recognize them? Maybe she should have asked people to say good things about men or women, then determine if what is being said is a fact or an opinion?

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Response to backtomn (Reply #9)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 03:28 PM

11. Because it high lights a real discrepancy between men and women in our society

 

And more to the point, its just supposed to start a discussion. It was one prompt that could lead anywhere the students decided to take it. It could have got nasty (she would have ended it), it could have got productive, it could have gone no where (sometimes happens). That is what higher education is about.

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Response to GummyBearz (Reply #11)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 03:34 PM

14. Then higher education is in big trouble.

Again, she started the discussion with a comment that was biased against men and as you admitted, she was turning the tables on men. How the hell did she think the discussion would go? As I said, she could have picked a ton of better topics for critical thinking than something so superficial. I cannot imagine how it could have productive. You won't convince me otherwise.

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Response to backtomn (Reply #14)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 03:45 PM

20. haha... did you file the complaint? lol...

 

She loves men. She is married to one. She SARCASTICALLY tried to start an in class discussion with a comment that wasn't offensive to any man. I imagine if I was 18 in that class I would have replied that I like my facial hair, kinda like I tell her when she tells me I need to shave. I won't convince you because you don't want to think. Oh well, life is easy when you don't need to think too hard.

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Response to GummyBearz (Reply #20)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 03:50 PM

24. Actually, I am approaching this logically and

making an argument, you are being emotional. I not sure you even considered what I said before you responded. And now....... As my mom used to say, insults and profanity come when someone has run out of intelligent things to say.

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Response to backtomn (Reply #24)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 03:59 PM

27. In this case they come when someone says they will never be convinced, no matter what

 

You're good at logic right? When you said "I cannot imagine how it could have productive. You won't convince me otherwise." You just threw logic out the window... The most brilliant scientists change their conclusions when necessary. You might want to try retaking that freshman year logic class.

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Response to GummyBearz (Reply #20)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 04:33 PM

33. Sarcasm = "critical thinking"?

 

As an intellectual exercise, this is no better than "I know you are, but what am I?"

The students are paying money for this. I'd be unhappy too, even though my facial hair is yucky.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #33)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 05:16 PM

36. It is an element of writing and thinking

 

Ever heard of The Onion?

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Response to GummyBearz (Reply #36)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 06:00 PM

40. Last I heard, I didn't have to pay tuition to read the Onion.

 

Last edited Tue Feb 2, 2016, 06:50 PM - Edit history (1)

See? Sarcasm.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #40)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 08:14 PM

44. Last I heard, you do have to pay tuition to get an education, and that is what we are talking about

 

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Response to GummyBearz (Reply #44)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 09:01 PM

48. "My beard is icky" isn't the transformational educational experience I would hope for.

 

Will I be tested on the topic?

I have a different definition of "education" I guess.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #48)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 09:45 PM

49. Ok maybe I some how didn't make it clear

 

That was used an over generalization in regards to gender stereotypes. You are aware there is such a thing as over generalizing, and stereotyping, right? And that the statement was a sarcastic example of stereotyping men, which was meant to start a discussion that could lead anywhere (beards are the myopic point here - think in broader terms of stereotyping men). You will not be tested on your beard, you may be asked to write a real essay one day though. Or think critically.


then again..........

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Response to GummyBearz (Reply #49)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 12:14 AM

60. You're right. I'll never get into teacher school with my critical thinking skill.

 

Myopic? If you think that boys haven't already learned how icky they are by college, and that maybe *just one more* sensitivity lesson delivered in "yo mama" putdown style will do the trick...

Good luck with that. I'd ask for my money back.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #60)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 12:57 AM

62. Nice "yo mama" reference. I never saw that one coming

 

You got every penny worth from your critical thinking classes.

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Response to backtomn (Reply #3)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 03:18 PM

7. I agree. People certainly would not put up with a man starting such a discussion and therefore

should not put up with such a discussion started by a woman.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #7)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 03:36 PM

15. I personally put up with it quite a bit when I was in college

 

You didn't? The fact that _sarcastically_ claiming facial hair is "yucky" is considered so egregious that someone's job is at risk is kind of a problem... What next? Someone can't say they dislike the color orange? JFC.... are you the student that complained?

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Response to GummyBearz (Reply #15)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 03:42 PM

19. This is definitely not something that should put a job at risk.

I just think that it was a poor choice of topics........and maybe not recognizing how people react to things today. There have been plenty of stories in the news about it lately.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #7)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 03:37 PM

16. It has to do with differences in power and societal dominance. It would be like starting a

 

discussion on "...let's stereotype white people or rich people."

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Response to smirkymonkey (Reply #16)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 03:46 PM

21. My son who is a junior in high school is currently learning about a first account story of a

young Native American boy mistreated by early settlers. They have never once started the discussion by saying hey let's say that white boys are mongrels, savages, retarded, or some such insult.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #21)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 04:14 PM

30. Good

 

Because that is not at all equivalent to saying "facial hair is yucky". Your example is one based on racism, name calling, and insults as you rightly say. However "facial hair is yucky" is none of those things.

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Response to backtomn (Reply #3)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 04:30 PM

32. I think that was the point. Getting guys to see how sexist comments feel by

offering them from the male perspective.

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Response to backtomn (Reply #3)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 06:11 PM

43. really? Ummmm....

 

Critical thinking is all about questioning assumptions, standards, and so-called common sense. Seems to me that bringing up stereotypes and then critiquing them would be completely valid.

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Response to Adrahil (Reply #43)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 11:21 PM

55. Exactly.

But if you want someone to teach you the test, you're not going to really get the whole critical thinking stuff anyway.

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Response to backtomn (Reply #3)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 12:33 AM

61. One Could Debate Her

I would think any discussion that allows debate could be called a critical thinking exercise. Anyone could have said men do not have yucky facial hair. They could have then tried to give reasoned arguments as to why men do not have yucky facial hair. All of the students could have tried to separate valid arguments from invalid arguments. The students could have questioned the teacher to determine her critical thinking skills.

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Response to GummyBearz (Original post)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 03:07 PM

4. This "safe spaces" stuff is ridiculous in my opinion.

Grow the hell up.

I'm a gay woman who has heard just about every insult possible toward my gender and my sexual orientation.

Somehow I've survived.

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Response to cwydro (Reply #4)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 03:16 PM

5. Not everybody survives it. Many young gay people commit suicide because of the

discrimination and hate they face. Many more are forever ostracized from their families and get kicked out of their house and have to live on the street. Sorry, that I survived my childhood crap doesn't wash with me.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #5)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 03:26 PM

10. And safe spaces in college will help them?

Sooner or later, one has to face the world.

No one can be protected from hate forever.

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Response to cwydro (Reply #10)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 03:32 PM

13. Teenagers and young adults are especially vulnerable. It is their first time out in the world.

Hell their brains aren't even done developing yet at that age.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #13)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 03:39 PM

18. How do they learn to deal with adversity?

Hell, I heard and saw it in elementary school.

I was bullied because of my English accent and my inability to play sports well (asthma). I grew out of both, but the bullying taught me never to give a damn what anyone thought of me.

I just don't understand how keeping someone in a "safe space" will help them. I mean, sure, it's great to be around those just like you and to feel comfortable with your friends. We all make those type "safe spaces." But no way on earth is this silly protective bubble going to help these kids.

What about those who DON'T go to college? Do they get some magical safe space too?

Sorry, I think it's well meant, but just silly.

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Response to cwydro (Reply #18)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 03:46 PM

22. Agreed

As I heard once......don't worry about what people think of you, because in reality, they are almost never thinking about you......so why think about them and make yourself miserable.

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Response to cwydro (Reply #18)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 03:46 PM

23. Well we obviously disagree. I was bullied in school too and had no support what so ever.

Because of it I have had a life long debilitating anxiety problem that prevents me from working. So no we don't all come out smelling like roses.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #23)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 03:55 PM

25. I'm very sorry to hear that.

I don't think any of us survive unscathed. I just don't see the "safe spaces" thingie.

Lol, I've had no lasting problems that stop me from working, but I do tend to be a bit of a hermit. No idea if that's from all the crap back in the day, or if I would have been that way anyhow.

Hey, we can disagree with no problems here.

I'd give you a hug in person if I could (and I'm not a hugger lol!)

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Response to cwydro (Reply #25)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 03:56 PM

26. Thank you.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #23)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 11:40 PM

57. Hold on...

 

you can not work...because you were bullied at school? How on earth do you provide for yourself?

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Response to GummyBearz (Original post)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 03:31 PM

12. Why would your wife give you

shit about your facial hair on a DAILY basis? Is she emotionally stable?

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Response to Snobblevitch (Reply #12)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 03:38 PM

17. haha

 

No, I just don't shave very frequently, and she doesn't like that. Ever been married and had a slight difference with your spouse? It happens

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Response to GummyBearz (Reply #17)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 05:19 PM

38. Lots of women object to the sandpaper effect of men's facial hair.

Makes kissing irritating.

On the other hand, as a man, I don't like shaving, because when I'm clean-shaven, creepy men try to lure me into windowless vans with offers of candy.

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Response to GummyBearz (Reply #17)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 08:33 PM

45. In September we will celebrate 26 years.

I still don't get the DAILY giving you shit about shaving however.

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Response to Snobblevitch (Reply #45)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 08:34 PM

46. Lucky guy

 

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Response to GummyBearz (Original post)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 04:06 PM

28. Maybe the problem isn't with some students being snowflakes but rather with the admin types who

amplify and weaponize petty complaints in order to micromanage?

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Response to GreatGazoo (Reply #28)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 04:09 PM

29. Its probably a bit of both IMO n/t

 

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Response to GreatGazoo (Reply #28)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 06:11 PM

42. I am sure that is part of it as well. nt

 

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Response to GummyBearz (Original post)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 04:28 PM

31. It's the internet coming to life

The internet is just the human mind on a screen. We're getting used to having groups, and groups within groups, etc, etc, all the way to safe groups, within the larger world. This time it isn't tribes with various individuals in it. It's digital groups of like minded people.

This is around the time when the first generation raised on the internet is going to college, give or take a year here and there. They're bringing what they know to school, and college specifically. I wouldn't be completely surprised if it ends up in the workplace in the years ahead. Whatever the workplace might end up being, who knows anymore.

I know, the work world is the real world, so it's different. I'm sure nobody was thinking college might evolve into the safe space zone either.

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Response to The2ndWheel (Reply #31)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 04:36 PM

34. Many work environments already have sensitivity training, so safe spaces have already been created

in the work force. Now we are seeing more sensitivity training in other places such as college.

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Response to The2ndWheel (Reply #31)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 05:14 PM

35. Good point.

But I don't see the work world adhering to this safe space nonsense. There's a difference between human resources/sensitivity training versus grouping by like-minded peopled based on gender/sexuality/race/etc. There is no way a corporate office would give into a list of demands by a small number of individuals who feel slighted nor would they bend over backwards to make their workers "comfortable".

Those people would be promptly fired and jobless.

Safe spaces will set these kids up for failure in the future.

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Response to romanic (Reply #35)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 05:20 PM

39. People bitched about corporate sensitivity training too.

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Response to GummyBearz (Original post)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 05:17 PM

37. I agree - the PC bullshit has gone too far.



I think a lot of people need to be told to stop acting like babies, grow some thicker skin, and quit whining.

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Response to GummyBearz (Original post)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 06:10 PM

41. Today's kids are in for the mother of all shocks when

 

they have to go out into an unfiltered and asshole-filled Real World.

Lotsa luck.

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Response to GummyBearz (Original post)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 08:34 PM

47. I'm still not 100% sure what a "safe space" is in this context

Searching around I see various different interpretations, but I am not clear how actually work and how they help.

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Response to GummyBearz (Original post)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 10:21 PM

51. It might help us understand you better if you describe "snow flake".

 

I'm really not sure what that means or represents and it leaves too much for individual interpretation.

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Response to GummyBearz (Original post)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 10:23 PM

52. I don't know what's wrong with kids today. Spoiled rotten and lazy.

So easily offended they are the punch line to a bad joke.

(Does that offend you, you cocky young whippersnapper? Well good. That was my intention.)


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Response to GummyBearz (Original post)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 10:33 PM

53. I don't even know what that is supposed to mean

perhaps I never had that class in "critical thinking". First of all, I would be curious as to some of the "instead of women" stereotypes that get bandied about that she is not so subtly complaining about.

Second in what way is "men have icky facial hair" a stereotype? My oxford desk dictionary calls a stereotype a "widely accepted type". Webster's new world calls it a "fixed or conventional notion".

I am thinking it is more like a "negative" trait attached to various groups. I mean would anybody complain if they were said to fit the stereotype of the handsome intelligent hero? A stereotype is something more on the lines of "Americans are stupid" or "French are cowards".

In this case though, men do, in fact, have facial hair, which they either shave, trim or allow to grow unchecked. Whether one considers various styles of that "icky" would be a matter of preference.

As such, I don't even see how that statement fits as a stereotype.

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Response to hfojvt (Reply #53)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 11:26 PM

56. So, the point was to start a dialogue in class

 

Your well written response is an excellent example of a dialogue that could have helped the class think critically about a number of things. Instead someone in the class was offended, and none of that happened. I thank you for the reply to help illustrate the situation better than I originally did.

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Response to GummyBearz (Original post)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 11:02 PM

54. Clearly there are too many administrators if someone at that school has time to waste on this shite.

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Response to GummyBearz (Original post)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 11:44 PM

58. Please don't paint all college kids as needing "safe places"

A vast majority of college students laugh at those small "safe zone" advocates as much as we do.



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Response to FLPanhandle (Reply #58)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 11:48 PM

59. I agree that the majority of college kids are NOT guilty of such things

 

But the few who are affect everyone else. I just wanted to relay the situation my wife had to deal with today. She is the one that tells me I am being un-PC at times, and she got this crap brought down on her when she had no mal intentions... I feel sorry for her.

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