General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsGlobal Warming’s Terrifying New Chemistry
fracking well in the Eagle Ford Shale region, near Karnes City, Texas. (AP Photo / Aaron M. Sprecher)
Theres one greenhouse gas everyone knows about: carbon dioxide, which is what you get when you burn fossil fuels. We talk about a price on carbon or argue about a carbon tax; our leaders boast about modest carbon reductions. But in the last few weeks, CO2s nasty little brother has gotten some serious press. Meet methane, otherwise known as CH4.
Snip
To the extent our leaders have cared about climate change, theyve fixed on CO2. Partly as a result, coal-fired power plants have begun to close across the country. Theyve been replaced mostly with ones that burn natural gas, which is primarily composed of methane. Because burning natural gas releases significantly less carbon dioxide than burning coal, CO2 emissions have begun to trend slowly downward, allowing politicians to take a bow. But this new Harvard data, which comes on the heels of other aerial surveys showing big methane leakage, suggests that our new natural-gas infrastructure has been bleeding methane into the atmosphere in record quantities. And molecule for molecule, this unburned methane is much, much more efficient at trapping heat than carbon dioxide.
The EPA insisted this wasnt happening, that methane was on the decline just like CO2. But it turns out, as some scientists have been insisting for years, the EPA was wrong. Really wrong. This error is the rough equivalent of the New York Stock Exchange announcing tomorrow that the Dow Jones isnt really at 17,000: Its computer program has been making a mistake, and your index fund actually stands at 11,000.
Snip
http://www.thenation.com/article/global-warming-terrifying-new-chemistry/
rjsquirrel
(4,762 posts)And there are billions of tons of methane tapped under melting arctic permafrost.
I actually think humans have screwed the pooch. And good riddance to us.
ProfessorGAC
(65,001 posts)Since methane has a much lower specific heat than does CO2, the methane absorbs the energy then releases it again, since it cannot hold as much heat.
So, the methane releases the heat and more methane picks it up.
Also, methane is more efficient an absorber of infrared frequencies but less efficient in the UV range and a the same in the visible range.
So, it's really not a more efficient heat trap than CO2.
That statement in the article is a little misleading.
That being said, any unwanted emissions are a problem, so whether it's methane or CO2, we need to lower the concentrations.
Bernardo de La Paz
(48,999 posts)The greenhouse effect does not depend on the gas holding the heat. It only needs the gas to prevent re-radiation into space. Methane is very effective at that.
https://www.skepticalscience.com/methane-and-global-warming.htm
It doesn't take much methane emission to create a severe problem.
The flip side is that cutting back on methane emission is a good way to help reduce global warming.
ProfessorGAC
(65,001 posts)What i said was that it had a poor specific heat and gave up the heat. Since CO2 absorbs infrared (heat) the abundance of the CO2 gives it somewhere to be absorbed.
Hence, the lack of exit radioemissivity. So, despite the higher molar absorptivity of methane, the CO2, in far greater abundance is still the issue.
But, in fact it does require the heat to be held by something or else it would drift away as infrared energy, since it be omnidirectional.
Which gas it is may not be relevant, but reduces the highest concentration of "heat sink gas" still seems to be the most efficient solution.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,309 posts)IPCC AR5: http://www.climatechange2013.org/images/report/WG1AR5_Chapter08_FINAL.pdf
Appendix 8A: methane has a radiative efficiency of 3.63*10-4 W m-2 ppb-1, while for carbon dioxide it's 1.37*10-5 - so it's more than 26 times as much as CO2. Converted into /kg values, and measured over 20 years, the global warmign potential is 84 times as much; over 100 years, 28 times as much.
rjsquirrel
(4,762 posts)ProfessorGAC
(65,001 posts)It doesn't absorb and hold the heat. The bond excitation lasts only a very short time because the bond length is short and the overall inherent bond energy of methane is already at a very high state. (Hence the huge heat release during combustion.)
So, if absorbs IR, and some UV (most alkanes don't absorb UV all that well) but releases that energy as infrared again.
So, the problem still lies in the fact that the CO2 content is so high that there is a huge abundance of lower energy state gas that can absorb and retain the heat instead of becoming an infrared emission, half of which would be going the speed of light out of the atmosphere.
Hence the actual impact of methane, given no other highly active source of infrared absorption, in only about half, and perhaps less depending upon the tangent of the altitude to the surface of the earth.
So, what i'm saying is that methane is not a bigger problem because half the heat is absorbs (at least) would be released out into space. But, the CO2, in great abundance, absorbs, and retains the heat much better. Hence that Appendix is wrong. It doesn't include the inability of methane to retain the gained bond excitation energy.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,309 posts)This is not about how a theoretical atmosphere of pure methane, or pure carbon dioxide, or pure nitrogen etc. would behave; it's about how the trace amounts of methane and carbon dioxide in our atmosphere affect how infrared is absorbed or transmitted.
I'm overjoyed you think the IPCC, and in fact the whole of atmospheric science, are wrong, but your Nobel will be delayed until you are able to express your paradigm-challenging hypothesis.
Can you draw a diagram explaining " the tangent of the altitude to the surface of the earth"?
jeff47
(26,549 posts)That's what makes it a more potent "greenhouse gas".
It lets visible and UV light from the sun pass through the atmosphere, where it is absorbed by the ground. That energy is mostly released as infrared...which is absorbed by the methane in the atmosphere, trapping the energy in the atmosphere. Yes, the methane can release the infrared again, but only a tiny fraction of that released infrared is going to go out of the atmosphere. The vast majority will hit another molecule in the atmosphere, or back to the ground.
ProfessorGAC
(65,001 posts)It's not a tiny amount. It is a minimum of half, as the release of the energy as infrared light is in every direction. At several miles up, a least half of it is never going to meet the surface of the earth, as long as their aren't abundant other infrared absorbing compounds. CO2 is still the problem.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)"Upward" released photons are still likely to hit another molecule. Which will release it in any direction, including "down".
You need a photon to be released "upward" many, many, many times in a row to get it out of the atmosphere. That chain is unlikely, so a very large portion of the photons will remain in the atmosphere.
Lorien
(31,935 posts)that we will take with us. leaving the planet a barren rock because we've killed off all of the ocean flora (65% of our oxygen) and rain forests (35% of our oxygen) that provide us with an atmosphere that allows this planet to be habitable isn't acceptable under any circumstances.
lapfog_1
(29,199 posts)The size of the oceanic methane clathrate reservoir is poorly known, and estimates of its size decreased by roughly an order of magnitude per decade since it was first recognized that clathrates could exist in the oceans during the 1960s and 1970s.[18] The highest estimates (e.g. 3×1018 m³)[19] were based on the assumption that fully dense clathrates could litter the entire floor of the deep ocean. Improvements in our understanding of clathrate chemistry and sedimentology have revealed that hydrates form in only a narrow range of depths (continental shelves), at only some locations in the range of depths where they could occur (10-30% of the Gas hydrate stability zone), and typically are found at low concentrations (0.9-1.5% by volume) at sites where they do occur. Recent estimates constrained by direct sampling suggest the global inventory occupies between 1×1015and 5×1015 m³ (0.24 to 1.2 million cubic miles).[18] This estimate, corresponding to 500-2500 gigatonnes carbon (Gt C), is smaller than the 5000 Gt C estimated for all other geo-organic fuel reserves but substantially larger than the ~230 Gt C estimated for other natural gas sources.[18][20] The permafrost reservoir has been estimated at about 400 Gt C in the Arctic,[21][citation needed] but no estimates have been made of possible Antarctic reservoirs. These are large amounts; for comparison the total carbon in the atmosphere is around 800 gigatons (see Carbon: Occurrence).
Methane is a powerful greenhouse gas. Despite its short atmospheric half life of 12 years, methane has a global warming potential of 86 over 20 years and 34 over 100 years (IPCC, 2013). The sudden release of large amounts of natural gas from methane clathrate deposits has been hypothesized as a cause of past and possibly future climate changes. Events possibly linked in this way are the Permian-Triassic extinction event and the Paleocene-Eocene Thermal Maximum.
Climate scientists like James E. Hansen predict that methane clathrates in the permafrost regions will be released because of global warming, unleashing powerful feedback forces which may cause runaway climate change that cannot be halted.
Research carried out in 2008 in the Siberian Arctic found millions of tonnes of methane being released[36][37][38][39][40] with concentrations in some regions reaching up to 100 times above normal.[41]
In their Correspondence in the September 2013 Nature Geoscience journal, Vonk and Gustafsson cautioned that the most probable mechanism to strengthen global warming is large-scale thawing of Arctic permafrost which will release methane clathrate into the atmosphere.[42] While performing research in July in plumes in the East Siberian Arctic Ocean, Gustafsson and Vonk were surprised by the high concentration of methane.[43]
and...
In mid-July 2014, a mysterious hole in permafrost, spotted by helicopter pilots in the Yamal region of northern Russia, captured the worlds attention. Reindeer herders reported a second hole some days later, and still later a third Siberian crater was found. Weird explanations ranged from meteorites to stray missiles to aliens, but by late July a team of scientists reported that they had measured unusually high concentrations of methane inside the first crater, which is now known as B1. The journal Nature published a story on its website on July 31, 2014 featuring those findings, and many accepted the unsettling idea that an explosive release of methane, related to global warming, caused the craters until February 2015 when the Siberian Times reported more craters in Siberia. A Russian scientist speculated that there may be 20 to 30 craters more. The report of more craters has led scientists to offer a different, simpler explanation for them, one that is still related to global warming, but does not involve a powerful and explosive methane release.
Siberian Times wrote on February 23, 2015 that:
Examination using satellite images has helped Russian experts understand that the craters are more widespread than was first realized, with one large hole surrounded by as many as 20 mini-craters
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)jwirr
(39,215 posts)mines that had explosions because the methane exploded when exposed to sparks.
Also I remember stories in Mother Earth Magazine how both farmers in South Africa, China and the US were experimenting with using the methane from their animals for energy sources.
To bad we did not begin to recognize its existence for what it was back then.
daleanime
(17,796 posts)fleabiscuit
(4,542 posts)librechik
(30,674 posts)that will overwhelm us
chervilant
(8,267 posts)every time one of my Arkansas friends denies global climate change. One young artist, for whom I provide transportation to and from knitting and woodcarving, has shared that her online preacher has "proof" that we are actually in a new ice age, and that such climate fluctuations are normal.
We blunder towards our extinction event with eyes wide shut.
Thespian2
(2,741 posts)they are very likely to witness the horrors of climate change...scientist now know that effects are already being seen, but they once thought that sea-level change would be 8 decades out, now they think possibly only 2...
Lorien
(31,935 posts)over scarce resources): http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2002/jul/07/research.waste
Non violent solutions exist to give us a much better chance at survival, but the political will does not. Not with the current crop that we have in office, anyway.
Thespian2
(2,741 posts)SoLeftIAmRight
(4,883 posts)$hillary and kissinger will save us
LiberalArkie
(15,715 posts)SoLeftIAmRight
(4,883 posts)they think they can escape
LiberalArkie
(15,715 posts)They can have solar panels and diesel generators with a battery system for their little survival place in the the mountains on a controlled island. What happens after a few years go by and they need new batteries (they do need routine replacement) or a hail storm knocks out the solar panels or they need more diesel. Things could go bad enough for long enough that they don't make it.
Whereas they poor people back home have planted crops, they have access to things left behind and are able to make it, just not with as mcc luxury as the rich had planned to live it out.
SoLeftIAmRight
(4,883 posts)...
Duppers
(28,120 posts)How can our children possibly prepare for the suffering and hell they will have to experience?
Thanks for posting this in GD because most folks will not read DU's Environment and Energy forum:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1127
Folks need to frickin wake up.
Visionary
(54 posts)From what I've seen the elites simply don't care about this issue. Many even acknowledge the problem, but they don't believe we can/should do anything about it. How can they knowingly leave their children a screwed up world and not even try to save it? They must believe their wealth will provide for the children even as things start falling apart.
Thespian2
(2,741 posts)Wealthy elite believe, I think, that their riches will save them...most of them are psychopaths...meaning they have very large egos and care nothing at all about anyone not them...
man of few w
(55 posts)So Far From Heaven
(354 posts)The EPA issued a report in 2011 and its revision in 2012 outlining all no-co2 contributions and their trends through 2030.
It isn't just methane. There are a host of trace gasses with rising concentrations, all of which are a minimum of 100 times as effective as co2 to 1000 times or more.
The authors note that emissions of methane could be substantially higher due to the fact that nobody ever monitors the wells or well heads, nor pipeline transfer points.
Here is a link to the revision (pdf):
https://www3.epa.gov/climatechange/Downloads/EPAactivities/Summary_Global_NonCO2_Projections_Dec2012.pdf
Read it and weep. You've had the wool pulled over you eyes for years.....