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LiberalArkie

(15,715 posts)
Fri Mar 25, 2016, 09:02 AM Mar 2016

Global Warming’s Terrifying New Chemistry


fracking well in the Eagle Ford Shale region, near Karnes City, Texas. (AP Photo / Aaron M. Sprecher)

Global warming is, in the end, not about the noisy political battles here on the planet’s surface. It actually happens in constant, silent interactions in the atmosphere, where the molecular structure of certain gases traps heat that would otherwise radiate back out to space. If you get the chemistry wrong, it doesn’t matter how many landmark climate agreements you sign or how many speeches you give. And it appears the United States may have gotten the chemistry wrong. Really wrong.


There’s one greenhouse gas everyone knows about: carbon dioxide, which is what you get when you burn fossil fuels. We talk about a “price on carbon” or argue about a carbon tax; our leaders boast about modest “carbon reductions.” But in the last few weeks, CO2’s nasty little brother has gotten some serious press. Meet methane, otherwise known as CH4.

Snip

To the extent our leaders have cared about climate change, they’ve fixed on CO2. Partly as a result, coal-fired power plants have begun to close across the country. They’ve been replaced mostly with ones that burn natural gas, which is primarily composed of methane. Because burning natural gas releases significantly less carbon dioxide than burning coal, CO2 emissions have begun to trend slowly downward, allowing politicians to take a bow. But this new Harvard data, which comes on the heels of other aerial surveys showing big methane leakage, suggests that our new natural-gas infrastructure has been bleeding methane into the atmosphere in record quantities. And molecule for molecule, this unburned methane is much, much more efficient at trapping heat than carbon dioxide.

The EPA insisted this wasn’t happening, that methane was on the decline just like CO2. But it turns out, as some scientists have been insisting for years, the EPA was wrong. Really wrong. This error is the rough equivalent of the New York Stock Exchange announcing tomorrow that the Dow Jones isn’t really at 17,000: Its computer program has been making a mistake, and your index fund actually stands at 11,000.


Snip

http://www.thenation.com/article/global-warming-terrifying-new-chemistry/
32 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Global Warming’s Terrifying New Chemistry (Original Post) LiberalArkie Mar 2016 OP
Yep rjsquirrel Mar 2016 #1
Only Partially Accurate ProfessorGAC Mar 2016 #3
Actually, the important fact is that methane is much better at the Greenhouse Effect Bernardo de La Paz Mar 2016 #6
I Didn't Say That Bernado ProfessorGAC Mar 2016 #8
I can't work out what you mean muriel_volestrangler Mar 2016 #9
As I said in the first place rjsquirrel Mar 2016 #11
If Emits The Infrared Energy Very Fast ProfessorGAC Mar 2016 #16
No, you're still not making any sense muriel_volestrangler Mar 2016 #19
You got that backwards jeff47 Mar 2016 #15
Sorry Jeff, But We Disagree ProfessorGAC Mar 2016 #17
The atmosphere isn't one atom thick. jeff47 Mar 2016 #18
But NOT "good riddence" to the mhundeds of thousands of species Lorien Mar 2016 #26
Methane clathrate - this is what will kill all of us in less than 100 years lapfog_1 Mar 2016 #2
K and freaking R!! nt riderinthestorm Mar 2016 #4
Methane is not new. It is the gas that has killed many in the jwirr Mar 2016 #5
kick, kick, kick.... daleanime Mar 2016 #7
Livestock is the largest contributor of methane. eom fleabiscuit Mar 2016 #10
Yes, and Don't forget about melting permafrost librechik Mar 2016 #14
I am astonished anew chervilant Mar 2016 #12
What should be frightening to people under 50... Thespian2 Mar 2016 #13
There won't be many humans left by 2050 (who aren't trying to kill one another Lorien Mar 2016 #27
I truly fear you are correct. Thespian2 Mar 2016 #29
Climate change and the sixth global mass-extinction event is happening now SoLeftIAmRight Mar 2016 #20
I think they already have their bunker island already provisioned. LiberalArkie Mar 2016 #21
I know they do SoLeftIAmRight Mar 2016 #22
There is always something that can happen. LiberalArkie Mar 2016 #23
do they plan on having "tasters" SoLeftIAmRight Mar 2016 #25
Most Important issue ever facing us! Ever! Duppers Mar 2016 #24
The elites still don't care. Visionary Mar 2016 #28
Welcome Thespian2 Mar 2016 #30
Mr Hansen: man of few w Mar 2016 #31
This is old news..... So Far From Heaven Mar 2016 #32
 

rjsquirrel

(4,762 posts)
1. Yep
Fri Mar 25, 2016, 09:15 AM
Mar 2016

And there are billions of tons of methane tapped under melting arctic permafrost.

I actually think humans have screwed the pooch. And good riddance to us.

ProfessorGAC

(65,001 posts)
3. Only Partially Accurate
Fri Mar 25, 2016, 09:25 AM
Mar 2016

Since methane has a much lower specific heat than does CO2, the methane absorbs the energy then releases it again, since it cannot hold as much heat.

So, the methane releases the heat and more methane picks it up.

Also, methane is more efficient an absorber of infrared frequencies but less efficient in the UV range and a the same in the visible range.

So, it's really not a more efficient heat trap than CO2.

That statement in the article is a little misleading.

That being said, any unwanted emissions are a problem, so whether it's methane or CO2, we need to lower the concentrations.

Bernardo de La Paz

(48,999 posts)
6. Actually, the important fact is that methane is much better at the Greenhouse Effect
Fri Mar 25, 2016, 11:06 AM
Mar 2016

The greenhouse effect does not depend on the gas holding the heat. It only needs the gas to prevent re-radiation into space. Methane is very effective at that.

https://www.skepticalscience.com/methane-and-global-warming.htm

While methane is a more potent greenhouse gas than CO2, there is over 200 times more CO2 in the atmosphere. Eg - CO2 levels are 380 ppm (parts per million) while methane levels are 1.75ppm. Hence the amount of warming methane contributes is calculated at 28% of the warming CO2 contributes.


It doesn't take much methane emission to create a severe problem.

The flip side is that cutting back on methane emission is a good way to help reduce global warming.


ProfessorGAC

(65,001 posts)
8. I Didn't Say That Bernado
Fri Mar 25, 2016, 11:12 AM
Mar 2016

What i said was that it had a poor specific heat and gave up the heat. Since CO2 absorbs infrared (heat) the abundance of the CO2 gives it somewhere to be absorbed.

Hence, the lack of exit radioemissivity. So, despite the higher molar absorptivity of methane, the CO2, in far greater abundance is still the issue.

But, in fact it does require the heat to be held by something or else it would drift away as infrared energy, since it be omnidirectional.

Which gas it is may not be relevant, but reduces the highest concentration of "heat sink gas" still seems to be the most efficient solution.

muriel_volestrangler

(101,309 posts)
9. I can't work out what you mean
Fri Mar 25, 2016, 11:15 AM
Mar 2016

IPCC AR5: http://www.climatechange2013.org/images/report/WG1AR5_Chapter08_FINAL.pdf

Appendix 8A: methane has a radiative efficiency of 3.63*10-4 W m-2 ppb-1, while for carbon dioxide it's 1.37*10-5 - so it's more than 26 times as much as CO2. Converted into /kg values, and measured over 20 years, the global warmign potential is 84 times as much; over 100 years, 28 times as much.

ProfessorGAC

(65,001 posts)
16. If Emits The Infrared Energy Very Fast
Fri Mar 25, 2016, 12:27 PM
Mar 2016

It doesn't absorb and hold the heat. The bond excitation lasts only a very short time because the bond length is short and the overall inherent bond energy of methane is already at a very high state. (Hence the huge heat release during combustion.)

So, if absorbs IR, and some UV (most alkanes don't absorb UV all that well) but releases that energy as infrared again.

So, the problem still lies in the fact that the CO2 content is so high that there is a huge abundance of lower energy state gas that can absorb and retain the heat instead of becoming an infrared emission, half of which would be going the speed of light out of the atmosphere.

Hence the actual impact of methane, given no other highly active source of infrared absorption, in only about half, and perhaps less depending upon the tangent of the altitude to the surface of the earth.

So, what i'm saying is that methane is not a bigger problem because half the heat is absorbs (at least) would be released out into space. But, the CO2, in great abundance, absorbs, and retains the heat much better. Hence that Appendix is wrong. It doesn't include the inability of methane to retain the gained bond excitation energy.

muriel_volestrangler

(101,309 posts)
19. No, you're still not making any sense
Fri Mar 25, 2016, 12:37 PM
Mar 2016

This is not about how a theoretical atmosphere of pure methane, or pure carbon dioxide, or pure nitrogen etc. would behave; it's about how the trace amounts of methane and carbon dioxide in our atmosphere affect how infrared is absorbed or transmitted.

I'm overjoyed you think the IPCC, and in fact the whole of atmospheric science, are wrong, but your Nobel will be delayed until you are able to express your paradigm-challenging hypothesis.

Can you draw a diagram explaining " the tangent of the altitude to the surface of the earth"?

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
15. You got that backwards
Fri Mar 25, 2016, 12:26 PM
Mar 2016
Also, methane is more efficient an absorber of infrared frequencies but less efficient in the UV range and a the same in the visible range.

That's what makes it a more potent "greenhouse gas".

It lets visible and UV light from the sun pass through the atmosphere, where it is absorbed by the ground. That energy is mostly released as infrared...which is absorbed by the methane in the atmosphere, trapping the energy in the atmosphere. Yes, the methane can release the infrared again, but only a tiny fraction of that released infrared is going to go out of the atmosphere. The vast majority will hit another molecule in the atmosphere, or back to the ground.

ProfessorGAC

(65,001 posts)
17. Sorry Jeff, But We Disagree
Fri Mar 25, 2016, 12:28 PM
Mar 2016

It's not a tiny amount. It is a minimum of half, as the release of the energy as infrared light is in every direction. At several miles up, a least half of it is never going to meet the surface of the earth, as long as their aren't abundant other infrared absorbing compounds. CO2 is still the problem.

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
18. The atmosphere isn't one atom thick.
Fri Mar 25, 2016, 12:33 PM
Mar 2016

"Upward" released photons are still likely to hit another molecule. Which will release it in any direction, including "down".

You need a photon to be released "upward" many, many, many times in a row to get it out of the atmosphere. That chain is unlikely, so a very large portion of the photons will remain in the atmosphere.

Lorien

(31,935 posts)
26. But NOT "good riddence" to the mhundeds of thousands of species
Fri Mar 25, 2016, 05:30 PM
Mar 2016

that we will take with us. leaving the planet a barren rock because we've killed off all of the ocean flora (65% of our oxygen) and rain forests (35% of our oxygen) that provide us with an atmosphere that allows this planet to be habitable isn't acceptable under any circumstances.

lapfog_1

(29,199 posts)
2. Methane clathrate - this is what will kill all of us in less than 100 years
Fri Mar 25, 2016, 09:20 AM
Mar 2016
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methane_clathrate

The size of the oceanic methane clathrate reservoir is poorly known, and estimates of its size decreased by roughly an order of magnitude per decade since it was first recognized that clathrates could exist in the oceans during the 1960s and 1970s.[18] The highest estimates (e.g. 3×1018 m³)[19] were based on the assumption that fully dense clathrates could litter the entire floor of the deep ocean. Improvements in our understanding of clathrate chemistry and sedimentology have revealed that hydrates form in only a narrow range of depths (continental shelves), at only some locations in the range of depths where they could occur (10-30% of the Gas hydrate stability zone), and typically are found at low concentrations (0.9-1.5% by volume) at sites where they do occur. Recent estimates constrained by direct sampling suggest the global inventory occupies between 1×1015and 5×1015 m³ (0.24 to 1.2 million cubic miles).[18] This estimate, corresponding to 500-2500 gigatonnes carbon (Gt C), is smaller than the 5000 Gt C estimated for all other geo-organic fuel reserves but substantially larger than the ~230 Gt C estimated for other natural gas sources.[18][20] The permafrost reservoir has been estimated at about 400 Gt C in the Arctic,[21][citation needed] but no estimates have been made of possible Antarctic reservoirs. These are large amounts; for comparison the total carbon in the atmosphere is around 800 gigatons (see Carbon: Occurrence).

Methane is a powerful greenhouse gas. Despite its short atmospheric half life of 12 years, methane has a global warming potential of 86 over 20 years and 34 over 100 years (IPCC, 2013). The sudden release of large amounts of natural gas from methane clathrate deposits has been hypothesized as a cause of past and possibly future climate changes. Events possibly linked in this way are the Permian-Triassic extinction event and the Paleocene-Eocene Thermal Maximum.

Climate scientists like James E. Hansen predict that methane clathrates in the permafrost regions will be released because of global warming, unleashing powerful feedback forces which may cause runaway climate change that cannot be halted.

Research carried out in 2008 in the Siberian Arctic found millions of tonnes of methane being released[36][37][38][39][40] with concentrations in some regions reaching up to 100 times above normal.[41]

In their Correspondence in the September 2013 Nature Geoscience journal, Vonk and Gustafsson cautioned that the most probable mechanism to strengthen global warming is large-scale thawing of Arctic permafrost which will release methane clathrate into the atmosphere.[42] While performing research in July in plumes in the East Siberian Arctic Ocean, Gustafsson and Vonk were surprised by the high concentration of methane.[43]


and...


In mid-July 2014, a mysterious hole in permafrost, spotted by helicopter pilots in the Yamal region of northern Russia, captured the world’s attention. Reindeer herders reported a second hole some days later, and still later a third Siberian crater was found. Weird explanations ranged from meteorites to stray missiles to aliens, but by late July a team of scientists reported that they had measured unusually high concentrations of methane inside the first crater, which is now known as B1. The journal Nature published a story on its website on July 31, 2014 featuring those findings, and many accepted the unsettling idea that an explosive release of methane, related to global warming, caused the craters … until February 2015 when the Siberian Times reported more craters in Siberia. A Russian scientist speculated that there may be “20 to 30 craters more.” The report of more craters has led scientists to offer a different, simpler explanation for them, one that is still related to global warming, but does not involve a powerful and explosive methane release.

Siberian Times wrote on February 23, 2015 that:

Examination using satellite images has helped Russian experts understand that the craters are more widespread than was first realized, with one large hole surrounded by as many as 20 mini-craters …

jwirr

(39,215 posts)
5. Methane is not new. It is the gas that has killed many in the
Fri Mar 25, 2016, 11:01 AM
Mar 2016

mines that had explosions because the methane exploded when exposed to sparks.

Also I remember stories in Mother Earth Magazine how both farmers in South Africa, China and the US were experimenting with using the methane from their animals for energy sources.

To bad we did not begin to recognize its existence for what it was back then.

chervilant

(8,267 posts)
12. I am astonished anew
Fri Mar 25, 2016, 11:23 AM
Mar 2016

every time one of my Arkansas friends denies global climate change. One young artist, for whom I provide transportation to and from knitting and woodcarving, has shared that her online preacher has "proof" that we are actually in a new ice age, and that such climate fluctuations are normal.

We blunder towards our extinction event with eyes wide shut.

Thespian2

(2,741 posts)
13. What should be frightening to people under 50...
Fri Mar 25, 2016, 11:29 AM
Mar 2016

they are very likely to witness the horrors of climate change...scientist now know that effects are already being seen, but they once thought that sea-level change would be 8 decades out, now they think possibly only 2...

Lorien

(31,935 posts)
27. There won't be many humans left by 2050 (who aren't trying to kill one another
Fri Mar 25, 2016, 05:33 PM
Mar 2016

over scarce resources): http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2002/jul/07/research.waste

Non violent solutions exist to give us a much better chance at survival, but the political will does not. Not with the current crop that we have in office, anyway.

 

SoLeftIAmRight

(4,883 posts)
20. Climate change and the sixth global mass-extinction event is happening now
Fri Mar 25, 2016, 01:49 PM
Mar 2016

$hillary and kissinger will save us

LiberalArkie

(15,715 posts)
23. There is always something that can happen.
Fri Mar 25, 2016, 02:05 PM
Mar 2016

They can have solar panels and diesel generators with a battery system for their little survival place in the the mountains on a controlled island. What happens after a few years go by and they need new batteries (they do need routine replacement) or a hail storm knocks out the solar panels or they need more diesel. Things could go bad enough for long enough that they don't make it.

Whereas they poor people back home have planted crops, they have access to things left behind and are able to make it, just not with as mcc luxury as the rich had planned to live it out.

Duppers

(28,120 posts)
24. Most Important issue ever facing us! Ever!
Fri Mar 25, 2016, 02:06 PM
Mar 2016

How can our children possibly prepare for the suffering and hell they will have to experience?

Thanks for posting this in GD because most folks will not read DU's Environment and Energy forum:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1127

Folks need to frickin wake up.




 

Visionary

(54 posts)
28. The elites still don't care.
Fri Mar 25, 2016, 06:04 PM
Mar 2016

From what I've seen the elites simply don't care about this issue. Many even acknowledge the problem, but they don't believe we can/should do anything about it. How can they knowingly leave their children a screwed up world and not even try to save it? They must believe their wealth will provide for the children even as things start falling apart.

Thespian2

(2,741 posts)
30. Welcome
Fri Mar 25, 2016, 06:13 PM
Mar 2016

Wealthy elite believe, I think, that their riches will save them...most of them are psychopaths...meaning they have very large egos and care nothing at all about anyone not them...

So Far From Heaven

(354 posts)
32. This is old news.....
Fri Mar 25, 2016, 08:14 PM
Mar 2016

The EPA issued a report in 2011 and its revision in 2012 outlining all no-co2 contributions and their trends through 2030.

It isn't just methane. There are a host of trace gasses with rising concentrations, all of which are a minimum of 100 times as effective as co2 to 1000 times or more.

The authors note that emissions of methane could be substantially higher due to the fact that nobody ever monitors the wells or well heads, nor pipeline transfer points.

Here is a link to the revision (pdf):

https://www3.epa.gov/climatechange/Downloads/EPAactivities/Summary_Global_NonCO2_Projections_Dec2012.pdf

Read it and weep. You've had the wool pulled over you eyes for years.....

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