General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsPolitical Question: Is it better for Democrats if Donald Trump wins or if he loses?
The Republican establishment is doing everything within its power to defeat Donald Trump before the convention. Many have even gone so far as to support the vermin, Ted Cruz. Should we be pulling for them to keep Trump off the ballot?
I would argue that if Trump is on the ballot, there is always the chance that he may win the general election. There is no guarantee the Democrat, whomever it is, will defeat him. His appeal is across party lines.
However, if the Republican Party finds a way to keep him off the ballot, then they will piss off millions of Trump supporters. These folks will not be persuaded to vote for anyone other than Donald Trump. Therefore, it is better for the Democratic Party if the Republican Party succeeds in keeping Trump off the ballot.
= new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight:
NoneDon't highlight anything
5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
morningfog
(18,115 posts)A contested convention, regardless of the outcome is a win for us.
By if it is contested, trump will not be the nominee and he will take his supporters with him. With his ego, a third party run is not out of the question.
If trump is the nominee, we will cream him. Goppers are in a lose-lose bind.
Cosmocat
(14,562 posts)I think, politically, their least damaging option if this is the case is to just take the hit, bad or not, this go round with him, then get back to culling his voters into their trojan horse candidates.
If trump gets it taken at the convention, it will be well over a decade until his supporters vote R again.
AgerolanAmerican
(1,000 posts)the GOP establishment will undermine him for the rest of the year setting up a nice walk-in victory for Bernie!
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)I think he wins it. But even so, it's best for us if is a knuckle busting floor fight.
kentuck
(111,078 posts)...about how many Republicans will stand behind him if he is the nominee? 
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)
daleanime
(17,796 posts)if Hillary fails to lose the primary, it may be our only chance.
lagomorph777
(30,613 posts)Bernie on the other hand, can beat any of them handily:
Friday, March 25
Race/Topic (Click to Sort) Poll Results Spread
Michigan: Trump vs. Clinton SurveyUSA Clinton 49, Trump 38 Clinton +11
Michigan: Cruz vs. Clinton SurveyUSA Clinton 49, Cruz 39 Clinton +10
Michigan: Kasich vs. Clinton SurveyUSA Kasich 46, Clinton 41 Kasich +5
Michigan: Trump vs. Sanders SurveyUSA Sanders 55, Trump 36 Sanders +19
Michigan: Cruz vs. Sanders SurveyUSA Sanders 56, Cruz 35 Sanders +21
Michigan: Kasich vs. Sanders SurveyUSA Sanders 47, Kasich 42 Sanders +5
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/latest_polls/pres_general/
Herman4747
(1,825 posts)...and if she gets indicted, I am not so sure about even that.
StevieM
(10,500 posts)nor Sanders is in any danger of being indicted. The talk that Hillary is going to be indicted is total nonsense.
Herman4747
(1,825 posts)...Hillary, on the other hand....
liberal N proud
(60,334 posts)Not sure there would be much difference should either one ever get in office.
If either Trump or Cruz ever got elected to President, the Doomsday Clock would be reset to 1 second to midnight.
vi5
(13,305 posts)Of course it's better. It's the only way the Republican party finally gets permanently tagged with being the pathetic, fear mongering racists they've been hinting at for decades.
It's also the only way enough groups (women, latinos, muslims, anyone with common sense) gets motivated to go out and vote against him.
I know this doesn't make any sense since Cruz and Kasich are policy wise just as bad if not worse than Trump, but Trump has been so unhinged and over the top that if he loses the media will be able to play the "Whew! That crazy racist guy didn't get the nomination. Thank God one of these sensible Republicans won!"
kentuck
(111,078 posts)I would disagree with that.
I'm honestly curious. I've heard a few people say this but never gotten an answer that made me rethink my position.
His positions are no worse than Cruz (the only other person with a shot at the nomination), and he's much more up front and out there with his misogyny, bigotry and hatred. And I'm fairly certain him being nominated will set the Republican party back decades. He will increase turnout for whoever our nomination is which will help down ticket races.
What's the flip side?
kentuck
(111,078 posts)and it is not because of Ted Cruz.
Trump's supporters are not loyal to the Republican Party. They will not vote automatically for Ted Cruz or the Republican candidate if Donald is not on the ticket. Republicans will lose more with Trump off the ticket than on the ticket. Either way, Republicans are reaping a very sour harvest.
vi5
(13,305 posts)whether these Trump voters are new to the Republican party. i don't think they are. I think they are the same people who have been voting for the Republican candidate across the board no matter what, for years. I think their enthusiasm comes from finally having someone who is outwardly saying the racist things they've had to settle for dog whistles on all these years. I think they always have and always will continue to vote for the Republican candidate no matter who it is.
I think the difference is that Trump drives turnout on our side more than he does the Republican side. And I think especially if Hillary is our nominee that we are going to need something to drive turnout. I think people don't know enough about Cruz and will be easily convinced "He's not as bad as Trump" and then just stay home because they aren't particularly enthusiastic about Hillary. But I think if Hillary is up against Trump that she will destroy him with every demographic except angry white males, of which there is just not enough of to win an election.
kentuck
(111,078 posts)I think a lot of these Trump supporters are of the Tea Party persuasion. They deserted the Republican Party in droves in 2008, right after the big Wall Street and Housing and Banking depression. The Republicans were able to coax them back into their Party with promises and lies. Normally, they would not support someone as "unacceptable" as Donald Trump but many of them have divorced themselves from the Republican Party, and if they cannot vote for Donald Trump, then they may see fit to sit it out? I sense that may be where many Trump supporters are today?
Jerry442
(1,265 posts)...even if it does give an advantage to the party we favor. Unfortunately, there does not appear to be any other possible outcome to the Republican convention.
Shit happens. Yitzhak Rabin would tell you -- if he could.
vi5
(13,305 posts)He's more dangerous because his raving nutcase bona fides are focus group tested and slightly more palatable to the American public.
Jerry442
(1,265 posts)One of them will be the nominee unless the Republican Party pulls off some sort of bizarre three-cushion bank shot.
pampango
(24,692 posts)If the GOP establishment dumps Trump and Cruz - the only two candidates they have who have a substantial number of delegates - their party will implode.
Nominating Trump or Cruz will probably cause an electoral implosion anyway but you never know. A major terrorist attack, a stock market crash or something else unforeseeable would result in a President Trump or President Cruz no matter how unlikely that looks today. Plus nominating one of them will lead to another 4 months of overt racism and xenophobia from the republican candidate. Stirring up hatred for that long is not good for the society even if it does result in a Democratic landslide. A GOP establishment candidate, forced on a rebellious right wing base, would at least tone down the overt racism and xenophobia - while winking at the base that we share your hatreds.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)
Bucky
(53,987 posts)Horrible as Cruz and his ideas are, he does not encourage political street violence like Trump does. He's a wingnut, but not a fascist.
It's probably better for Dems to run against Cruz, too. Trump's got a lot of tricks up his sleeve and, frankly, it scares me thinking about how he might rile up the crowds and play different Democratic factions off against each other, just to suppress the Clinton vote in November. She doesn't respond well to agile political opponents. Trump is more agile than Cruz.
Those that think Trump would be easy to defeat are mistaken, in my opinion. His type of bullying populism appeals to a lot of people. We should not assume that Democrats will stay loyal to the brand.
The dilemma for the Republicans is that if Trump does not get the nomination, he will take a lot of his loyal supporters with him. Republicans will be weaker without Trump than with Trump. It is just a matter of time before they come to that realization, in my opinion, and there is a good chance they will get behind Trump when it comes down to their survival.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)That is the basis upon which many of them reject him.
pampango
(24,692 posts)'dog whistles' to communicate one's racism and xenophobia to particular receptive audiences. Donald condemns that practice as 'political correctness' and prefers for his racism and xenophobia to be loud and direct which makes traditional republican conservatives squirm, not because they disagree with his message - just his way of delivering it.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Yet the Republican, conservative establishment seems perfectly comfortable with him.
Bucky
(53,987 posts)Look, Hitler had a pretty pro-labor policy... for German workers. You can be very conservative and still be anti-street violence. They're two very different factors. So, yes, Trump supports the graduated income tax and Planned Parenthood outside of their abortion services. That doesn't mean he won't start wars or round up illegal aliens for detention camps.
Tarc
(10,476 posts)If Trump wins the nomination, then some, probably most, of the Republican establishment sucks it up and gets behind him; but not all, which is key. He will also be used to Get Out the Vote in every African-American, Latino, Asian, Muslim, etc...community in the country. He's also going to tank with the women's vote, given his unbridled misogyny.
If Trump gets suckered out of it...and by this point there's no way he can lose it otherwise other than some sort of convention shenanigans...he will go scorched earth on everything he sees, there is no such thing as a humble Trump who will get behind another candidate, particularly Cruz.
Cruz himself, bizarrely enough, is now considered the establishment Republican. He is an oily, Christian fundamentalist loon on so many issues that he's going to turn off so many moderates, not to mention 99.9% progressives. So he'll have that to contend with, plus the Trumpasaurus Rex behind him doing who knows what to the conservative base.
kentuck
(111,078 posts)the conservative base of the Republican Party may have suffered a mortal blow.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)have a favorable opinion of him.
His attitude and demeanor are extremely off-putting to a large segment of the population beyond demographics.
He is also less ideological than Cruz or Kasich. I think he would be the best person for them to nominate in terms of being able to beat him and also the damage he would do to various things.
kentuck
(111,078 posts)With all the polls showing all the groups against him, he still beats all the other Republicans in getting out the votes. He gets the votes somewhere?
He would be an uncontrollable President and Commander in Chief. He would be a dictator that would walk all over the so-called leaders in the House and Senate. It would be a disaster.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)He does very well with that demographic - which is enough to win him the Republican nomination, especially since there were so many candidate for so long.
Fortunately, there are not enough angry white men to give him a win in the general.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)At best, that is somewhere around 8-10% of the population. That's not going to do it for him.
TreasonousBastard
(43,049 posts)We've never had such nutcases as Cruz and Trump come run on a major party line before. Just the possibility that either of them could be in the white house next year is terrifying.
And here we are on this side with a bunch screaming how Hillary is just as bad, maybe worse. Bernie, of course, is some mad Communist with no chance of winning. At least the Hillarians aren't threatening to sit it out.
Around 200 million citizens eligible to run, and this is the best we can do? I have no problem with either Bernie or Hillary, but it is very depressing seeing the low caliber of the Republicans looking for the job and our hysterical debate over our own pretty good people.
Where's that island in Canada?
kentuck
(111,078 posts)"Hillary is a liar and cannot be trusted. She should be in prison."
"Bernie is a communist who does not believe in the free-enterprise system that we have in America."
"Oh yeah, what's in those emails?"
Whiskeytide
(4,461 posts)... our two rather good candidates. And they're good on a stand alone basis - not just "by comparison" to the idiots running on the other side.
But those idiots are the natural progression of where Rove, Cheney, et al. took the party. They perfected the tactic of demonizing the other side's arguments and positions, a tactic then amplified - constantly - by the right wing media machine. Add to that the very real Obama Derangement Syndrome that put the hate on steroids, and you have a loud and unabashed base that CANNOT - ever - be satisfied with anything less than the overt bigotry of a Trump or the religious fervor of a Cruz. They are tired of freakin' dog whistles!
What rational, reasonable and qualified conservative (assuming there is even such a person still in existence) would want some of that crazy train?
davidn3600
(6,342 posts)No athlete worth his salt would even answer that question. Because the reality is that it doesn't really matter. It's not really something that you can control.
But that being said, Ted Cruz, on paper, should be easier to defeat because his appeal would be more difficult for independents to jump aboard. Cruz is a more narrow candidate and his support is predictable. Trump is a wild card candidate. He's the type of guy that either crash and burn or catch fire.
Calista241
(5,586 posts)And I don't think that's the case. Other than his stance on immigration, he seems fairly center oriented, when you can pin down a position at all.
And excluding the fact that he seems to change his mind and positions all the time.
Ted Cruz is far more of a right winger imo, and he'd be easier to run against because of it.
Herman4747
(1,825 posts)However, I do think Cruz would be much harder to beat, since The Donald has turned so many people off.
Rex
(65,616 posts)It really is your pick of poison, hemlock or mandrake?
Tommy_Carcetti
(43,172 posts)We don't want that with Trump coming out the consensus GOP nominee.
It needs to go to a contested convention, which will result in neither Trump or Cruz being nominated (good), and Trump either going third party to split the GOP vote or pissed off Trumpkins boycotting the GOP nominee.
Vinca
(50,260 posts)Bill Maher made the point that Trump is so nuts you don't want him around nuclear weapons. Maher says "Better Ted Than Dead." The idea of either one is horrifying.
greymouse
(872 posts)If it's a choice between Hillary and Trump, hard to say.
However, the OP's assertion that Trump may win against any Democrat is false. Bernie beats the heck out of him in all the polls. Hillary generally seems to be within the margin of error.
kentuck
(111,078 posts)lately.
greymouse
(872 posts)
PufPuf23
(8,764 posts)is selected by the GOP for the general election for POTUS.
Basically agree with OP Kentuck.
kentuck
(111,078 posts)The Old Chinese Curse, they say. 
man of few w
(55 posts)
CharlotteVale
(2,717 posts)in droves to vote against her if they don't have him to vote for.
kentuck
(111,078 posts)They all say she "should be in jail".....for emails on her Blackberry...that were later classified....and Benghazi...
kcjohn1
(751 posts)Trump is going to major damage, but 2020 is almost guaranteed progressive win.
Clinton wins, she will continue regressive policies (probably another war or two), and most likely GOP takes over in 2020/2024 continuing business interest policies. Might be 2028 before we get chance for any progressive in the white house.
Tough decisions. Maybe we should sweat out 4 years of Trump for better things to come earlier..
RandySF
(58,730 posts)between a disaster with Cruz or a catastrophe with Trump.
grasswire
(50,130 posts)That would be an interesting battle. Kasich beats Hillary in the polling. He "appears" moderate and compassionate and a regular guy. A Democrat could not beat him with a "nice" campaign, I don't think. It would have to be very hard hitting.
brettdale
(12,376 posts)At least with Trump, you wont get a war on woman or gays.
If cruz gets the nod then wins the general, he will be a 1000 times worse than Trump.
Civil rights will be out back 60 years.
ibegurpard
(16,685 posts)Is he needs to be denied the nomination at the convention. If he wins outright I think we are fucked.
UMTerp01
(1,048 posts)
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)it would be better for the WORLD if Trump loses, not just Dems...
