We cannot "win" by operating within the system anymore. It's over.

[Zorra]

The 1% owns has all the money (Citizen's United, etc), the SCOTUS, the media. They have successfully brainwashed enough of the population to where they have a critical mass of zombies doing their will. It's now a full on sucker's game, and the 1% is the house. We don't even really know if our votes are counted honestly and when we try to get our leaders to implement a transparent voting system, they completely ignore us.

I'm not saying don't vote, I do believe that we can still do some good by voting. I am saying it would be wise for everyone that cares about freedom, democracy, and equality to begin to seriously consider alternative methods for regaining our democracy from somewhere outside of the system.

We cannot get our game back by working within the system.

It has, clearly, become impossible. This is not your grandma's government.

Occupy Underground Forum

[cali]

1. not in my home state.

[Bake]

25. Yes, in your home state. In my home state. In all 50 states.

We might as well admit it and figure out what to do about it.

Bake

[TBF]

31. If we could clone Bernie we'd be in good shape,

barring that the rest of us have a lot of work to do. You are fortunate to be where you are

[Mayflower1]

2. It was just 4 years ago that our side had it all.

It can happen again. I don't understand what you are trying to promote.

You win some and you lose some. There is big money on both sides (Soros, Bill Gates, Hollywood). Winning takes hard work and yes, money. Patience.

[hifiguy]

5. Four years ago was before Citizens United.

The best prognostications are that reichwing billionaires and their puppets will put more than $1 billion - that's right - billion with a "b" into defeating Obama. In many cases the donors do not have to be revealed by name and may well be foreign citizens or corporations. Transparency is ZERO.

The 1% view this as merely a cost of doing business in order to finish looting - and eventually basically enslaving - the 99%. Take a look at the graphic that has been posted around DU regarding the 8-1 money advantage Walker had in WI. The Repigs are intent on destroying unions, which are a major source of funds Democratic candidates, but even with strong unions the plutocracy can swamp those funds by 10 times.

The plutocracy has also been busy undermining and undercutting the Democratic party for at least as long as the DLC has been around. The surest way to get what you want is to buy both parties. The plutocracy knows this and has acted accordingly.

Wake up and smell the corporate fascism.

[Zorra]

7. What I am promoting is clearly stated in the OP.

Patience.

I've been patient since 1980, when the RW 1% began actively, aggressively taking control of the media, the schools, the courts, the voting system, the political system, and people's minds. The 1% has insidiously taken almost total control of all of these systems.

I don't know how old you are, or if you have any inkling of what has actually happened to/in this country since 1980.

We absolutely need to re-elect Obama. I know this, OK? I'm not saying don't participate in the political system. Please don't go there.

You completely validated and legitimized the OP by correctly stating, in your post, that there is big money on both sides.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens_United_v._Federal_Election_Commission

[apocalypsehow]

38. Actually, this post just flatly contradicted your OP. In your OP, you are clearly calling for

extra-democratic (small "d&quot actions outside of the standard political processes. Here, in reply #7, you claim to be promoting "patience."

Uhhhh, no. But I don't blame you for trying to walk it back. That OP flirts with notions that are not acceptable.

[TheKentuckian]

62. There isn't anything for the OP to walk back and they didn't call for extra-democratic action

At least not necessarily or explicitly. They may want increased or more direct democracy. They may have other things in mind but clear as day they said to continue to work the process but the message was that pressure from outside the system is also required and needs intense additional focus.
That is a thought is not to be dismissed. There is no magic, any system made by man can be corrupted and power can grow beyond any balance.

Any serious systemic change tends to require either crisis or long and relentless outside pressure in order for the system to respond, when it does. Sometimes power does not relent. Sometimes the only hearts and minds that matter cannot be turned, Pharaoh hardens his heart at times and when you have no functional free press you are well fucked even if there are hearts and minds to win.
We are in the well fucked area. The wealth disparity is societal cancer, it cannot be maintained and the people have self determination especially while our institutions are failing or turning predatory but the economics alone are a recipe for disaster.

[apocalypsehow]

63. Oh yes there is, and oh yes they did. You need to learn to read better. Or slower. Or both. n/t.

[HiPointDem]

57. gates, soros & hollywood fund union-busting. so what is "our side" for?

[Egalitarian Thug]

67. You really need to learn more about these people you claim are on "our side".

Soros is a thief, just like every one of his colleagues, he's like Ron Paul in that he has a few good ideas, but he has no desire to change the system he manipulates so well.

Bill Gates built his career lying, cheating, and stealing from others, and got his shitty software into the market through nothing more than connections coupled with government sanctioned fraud.

There are a few genuine and dedicated liberal/progressive celebrities that put their money and work to good use, but the majority of Hollywood money is in the hands of people that make drug kingpins look like choirboys.

And that's the problem with a system that rewards only the worst of the worst for making the world more cruel and grasping.

"Behind every great fortune lies a great crime"

[southernyankeebelle]

3. We have to get money out of elections and we need a free press to do its job. Its that simple.

We need more smart leaders to come from the 99%. We need them to pinpoint what must be done. Having OWS and even the tea party protesting isn't doing what we need to do. Corporations are loving this divide in the country between both sides. Until we all figure out how to get it back we will continue to be divide. We must stop thinking in blue and red and start thinking as one nation.

[Bake]

26. There is NO "free press" anymore.

They're all owned by corporate interests.

Next?

Bake

[southernyankeebelle]

27. Yes I know that is one of the changes that is needed. They have got to stay away from those

annual dinners to hang out with the president and movie stars.

[Bake]

30. How about, they need to be divested from the Time Warners and Media Corps of the world?

One lousy dinner ain't much (although it is rather whorish).

Bake

[southernyankeebelle]

33. That would be great. Hey I agree with you also. The dinner is whorish

[Chan790]

61. You're right, Bake. It's hopeless.

It's time for mass seppuku on the national mall.

No, nothing is permanently-fucked.

[Bake]

65. Did I say that?

No, I didn't. I said there is no free press. We need to work to make sure there IS a free press once again. OTHERWISE, you're right, we're screwed.

Bake

[Chan790]

69. No, I'm just cranky.

The sub-thread struck my insomniac self as really negative. I've had enough negativity in the last week.

There is an irony of the lack of "free press"...the less free the press has become, the fewer Americans rely upon it for news. This has had some negative consequences as contributing to siloing and echo-chambering of news. The internet is a great thing though, social media too; I say it a lot: "We are all citizen journalists now."

I've been covering the killing by an overly-aggressive neighborhood-watch captain of a black teenager in Florida for weeks, a story that the mainstream media would prefer disappear. Americans and the world knows that story because people like us insist on covering it.

In a twist on something the President said, We are the free press we've been waiting for. There is a free press...it's us, not them. If they shut down the internets, we'll fucking do it by samizdat.

[lumberjack_jeff]

4. I think you're conflating "democracy" with "power"

I'm not saying don't vote, I do believe that we can still do some good by voting. I am saying it would be wise for everyone that cares about freedom, democracy, and equality to begin to seriously consider alternative methods for regaining our democracy from somewhere outside of the system.

I don't think that you can "regain democracy" through extra-democratic means. Regain power? Sure, lots of examples of that.

[Arugula Latte]

6. I'm starting to think that it will take some decades under fascism for people to wake up

and insist on change. It might be like the flip side of the Soviet Union experience.

The clampdown is continuing, piece by piece. We're the proverbial frogs in the slowly warming water.

[Zorra]

8. ^This^ nt

[Nye Bevan]

10. People who are really "living under fascism"

tend to get themselves killed if they "insist on change".

[nashville_brook]

14. ^this^ nt.

[davekriss]

28. Inverted Totalitarianism

Acquaint yourself with Sheldon Wolin's concept of inverted totalitarianism. This generation of fascists understand the value of maintaining the illusion of "freedom" and "liberty" while preserving and enhancing their own freedom, which is the freedom of the master to exploit the slave (be it the modern wage slave, debt peon, or other exploited form).

[Gregorian]

16. Or, a week without gasoline.

I agree with much of the sentiment here, but I believe that the problem is education. And that only an educated population will turn this around. And it will take just as long as it took to dismantle as it will to rebuild. In other words, fifty years.

[AZ Progressive]

32. We shouldn't need to have decades of our lives ruined just to teach that lesson n/t

[Quantess]

35. Don't be so sure about that. Look at Romania.

The Romanian people are still subdued in spirit today. You see the Greeks protesting the banks, but in Romania they are more timid and are not protesting. Their spirits were nearly killed, after the communism and then the following dictatorships after soviet rule.

[onenote]

9. Help us out here.

Given that you are advocating that we "begin to seriously consider alternative methods for regaining our democracy from somewhere outside of the system" you obviously must believe that such alternative methods exist. Could you identify one or two to assist us in "seriously considering" them?

[daaron]

29. Consider the source (Occupy).

You might as well ask a Fundie about how to fix Climate Change. Occupy isn't interested in finding solutions, just in identifying problems. Not that identifying problems isn't important, but, uh, yeah... no duh.

I'll go back to Occupy when they get rid of the General Assemblies as the primary organizational model.

[U4ikLefty]

54. wrong

try another steroetype.

[boppers]

59. I wouldn't mind the GA's if there was more bathing beforehand.

How's that for you?

[U4ikLefty]

60. Smoke a joint & relax

it won't kill you.

[Egalitarian Thug]

68. Are you kidding?

Releasing that much suppressed rage and denial all at once just might.

[daaron]

64. Not a "steroetype" (sic). Personal experience.

I was involved with the Occupy movement in Albuquerque, NM, from the first week at Camp Coyote when it was at Central and University. I started the library, which disappeared in a puff. I attempted repeatedly to stay involved, but the General Assembly system is tragically, deeply flawed and unworkable for any issue more complex than where to march, next, and what to yell.

Working Groups are fine, but when the G.A.'s shoot down every single proposal, they became dispirited and evaporate. Until the basic organizational model by which Occupy occurs is modified, I'm going to continue to stick with a support role. The movement is welcome to continue making terrible decisions until it's completely irrelevant, or it can find a better way to make decisions that accommodates extended debate, research, analysis, and forsakes the mob rule that currently prevails, and have a real and lasting impact on this country.

[U4ikLefty]

73. I attend a GA here in L.A. on (at least) a weekly basis.

In the beginning the GAs were hard because people didn't get how to leave their egos at home & participate fairly.

Now, they run MUCH more smoothly. We ran our M1GS meetings in the same fashion & things worked swimmingly. I am a believer in the horizontal method of decision making...especially in groups with different types of people.

I'm sorry you didn’t get your proposals passed. Did they hard block them? What was the method after a hard block? If there was no consensus, did the person(s) proposing revise & come back or did they go home all pissed off?

It sounds to me like you want a reason to bitch about Occupy. Since your experience is at ONE Occupy, you shouldn't shit on all of us. I have attended GAs at 5 different Occupys & all of them run well. Also your line "unworkable for any issue more complex than where to march, next, and what to yell" show you don't really have any experience in how this is supposed to work. It also shows you attitude toward Occupy in general.

BTW, I like you pointing out my mistyping...shows class and a real desire to engage in honest debate. And thank you for your concern.

[daaron]

74. Well -->

maybe if your response to my post hadn't been "wrong. (insert misspelled word)," I may have reacted differently. How was I supposed to know you were capable of mounting an actual defense using the written word? Based on my one experience with you, which was a mess, I dismissed you prematurely.

Sound familiar?

[U4ikLefty]

75. You can TRY to make it about me & not actually answer...yawn.

I judge NEW posters on this board by their repeated memes. You are on the "Occupy sucks because GAs are bad" meme. I have heard that BS before and almost every time it was someone either flat out lying about their involvement in Occupy or someone who walked away pissed off because Occupy didn't bend to their will.

I will state this again:

I attend a GA here in L.A. on (at least) a weekly basis.

In the beginning the GAs were hard because people didn't get how to leave their egos at home & participate fairly.

Now, they run MUCH more smoothly. We ran our M1GS meetings in the same fashion & things worked swimmingly. I am a believer in the horizontal method of decision making...especially in groups with different types of people.

I'm sorry you didn’t get your proposals passed. Did they hard block them? What was the method after a hard block? If there was no consensus, did the person(s) proposing revise & come back or did they go home all pissed off?

Can you answer this time?

[daaron]

76. sudo !! nt

[ProfessionalLeftist]

11. 1% controls the gov't thanks to Citizens United

They were blathering about Wisconsin on Diane Rehm this morning. They kept mentioning how 'historic' it was that this governor "survived" a recall. The other two recalls that I can remember before Walker were BEFORE Citizens United. Obama was elected BEFORE Citizens United.

The game was always rigged. Now, it's completely controlled and owned by the 1%. THEY have already WON before the race even starts.

Typical/usual tactics and channels will not work anymore. I am NOT advocating doing anything violent or illegal but either we somehow creatively find ways to make a MAJOR nuisance of ourselves to these corprat clowns, or forever be controlled by them and and forever remain voiceless.

[libtodeath]

12. We play nice

and they go for the throat by any means necessary
That has to change.

[jillan]

13. This!!! Always. After CU, this has got to change.

eta - Even more than before.

[Romulox]

15. This is why the "New" Democratic movement was such a siren song.

The very concept of "Economically conservative, socially liberal" was oxymoronic from the start--as if from 9-to-5 we could be for the "economically conservative" policies that put a man out on the streets, then magically transform into "socially liberal" types at 5:15 with compassion for the man our policies made homeless during the work-day.

It's lunacy.

[BOG PERSON]

50. well-put (n/t)

[FreeJoe]

17. Money doesn't vote

It buys ads, but it doesn't vote. We have enough ways to counter their message. We just need a more compelling message. I'm not seeing us lose just because we are being outspent. Money helps, but it isn't everything. We need to improve our message. We'll inspire a lot more voters with universal health care than we will with mandates to work with corrupt insurance companies. We'll inspire more people if we havea foreign/terrorist policy built on our principals rather than a continuation of Bushes.

[cali]

18. if that's true, how come the candidate or issue with the

most money almost always wins?

[Nye Bevan]

19. Meg Whitman: $177 million; Jerry Brown: $36 million (nt)

[hifiguy]

21. Jerry Brown had the advantage of being very well known

to most Californians. His name recognition alone was worth a huge chunk of cash. Few candidates have that advantage.

[Fire Walk With Me]

24. What hifiguy said, and that Meg Whitman had an avalanche of negative baggage

no amount of money could erase.

[FreeJoe]

23. Not always

The candidate that spends the most doesn't always win. There have been many cases of wealthy or well financed candidates losing. Being able to get your message out is clearly an advantage, but it is not a guarantee.

Also, some of the correlation between spending and winning is that candidates with messages that resonate can often raise more money than their opponent. Remember that Obama trounced McCain in fund raising.

Money is important, but it is not as important as message. We are doing a worse job with our message than we are with our fundraising.

[librechik]

36. yes, dem messaging strategies

SUCK ASS. Message unclear, latte, illinformed, wishywashy. It's a fucking CATASTROPHE when we have a great candidate who is so eloquent.

Walker's message, even tho it was lies, was strong, unified and unchanging. The Repubs always beat the shit out of us with their lies.

I have no idea how to combat that.

[hifiguy]

20. Unfortunately, what Mark Twain said long ago is still true.

"A lie can run around the world six times while the truth is still trying to put on its pants."

And when the lies have billion-dollar jetpacks on their backs courtesy of the plutocracy, make that twenty times.

[handmade34]

37. I'm too old and experienced

and know better... money does buy votes and money does control the message... we are in for a monumental fight and we MUST fight it (for our kids and grandkids, for the environment, for our future)

[wendylaroux]

40. Absolutely!!

When the people are sitting in front of their boob tubes listening to talking points of the repugs.,over and over and over and over. Good lord!! I need to start drinking.

[handmade34]

46. don't cry

drinking is a good start... I'll buy; your choice, let the fight begins...

[wendylaroux]

49. LOL

I better not,It may start me on a 20 year bender!

[Comrade_McKenzie]

22. "The revolution is not an apple that falls when it is ripe. You have to make it fall."

Che Guevara

[mckara]

34. You Know, of Course, This Means War

Gut-check time!

[LarryNM]

39. The SCOTUS does Not have enforcement authority n/t

[Taverner]

41. Eat the rich

s'all I gotta say

[just1voice]

42. Correct, we also let war criminals walk free, bank criminals walk free

It's a system of corruption that only benefits the criminals who game the system. The only way to change it from within is to start holding criminals accountable with trials, very public trials that expose every torturous lie and conspiracy.

[girl gone mad]

43. Occupiers got played by the Dem power structure.

They should have had a general strike, not allowed their energy and determination to be co-opted by political insiders insisting they work within the failed system.

[Fire Walk With Me]

44. We had a General Strike on Mayday.

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=M1GS&oq=M1GS&aq=f&aqi=g6g-m1&aql=&gs_l=youtube.12..0l6j0i5.391.1301.0.6257.4.4.0.0.0.0.258.473.2j1j1.4.0...0.0.JBp15Ev3MOc

[dionysus]

71. there simply werent enough Occupiers to make a difference by striking. not enough people for anyone

to even notice. thats the problem. you need tens of millions to do that, not tens of thousands...

[Zorra]

72. This is true, and is one reason for this post.

How many elections will be stolen by big money taking advantage of Citizen's United before we unite and actually try to address the problem through direct action?

What is it going to take? The unthinkable happening? An Obama loss to Romney, because Romney had a billion dollars more to spend, compliments of Citizen's United and the 1%? What will we do if that happens? That would be a major tragedy with irreparable consequences, If Obama loses, SCOTUS remains fascist for at least another generation, and there will be no way to ever overturn Citizen's United. The cycle of big money buying elections will continue, and the problem will continually worsen.

The only legislators we'll have left will be those clearly chosen for office by the 1%.

I really don't like what I just saw happen in Wisconsin.

If this same thing happens in the Presidential election, will enough people finally wake up to the fact of how seriously the system has been compromised?

[Maven]

45. "Before Life on Earth becomes finally merely impossible, it will for a long time before have become

completely unbearable." (Angels in America)

So, what do we do about it?

[fascisthunter]

47. they ignore us nationally,

... but here they attack us with ferocity. Never question the voting system.... be pragmatic... always compromise... trust our leaders. Get with the program folks. Austerity is the only way...

fuck that

[Matariki]

48. "We don't even really know if our votes are counted honestly"

"and when we try to get our leaders to implement a transparent voting system, they completely ignore us"

WHAT YOU SAID.

NOT ONE MORE CENT from me until Democrats start addressing this problem - that and the Citizens United ruling and campaign finance issues. It's like pouring money into a black hole.

I fucking HATE that they use our losses as fund-raising platforms when they aren't even willing to address these fundamental issues.

[zorahopkins]

51. It Is NOT Over!

The struggle is NOT over!

The struggle will continue -- IT MUST CONTINUE!

We must be More Vigilant! More Revolutionary!

Our tactics MUST change!

[progress2k12nbynd]

52. We can blame the system but it's possible the message just isn't selling...

Look at Air America. We had a perfectly good alternative to conservative hate talk radio and it couldn't even get a fraction of the listenership and disappeared.

I'm not arguing that we change our principles or values but that we reconsider how we are framing them. The whole debate in Wisconsin about what percentage the average private worker pays of their benefits versus the average public worker is a perfect example. Instead of just purely fighting against any change perhaps we could have shown how the public model was sustainable and how it could be implemented in the private sector.

Edited to add: that way we probably could've actually gotten a good portion of the private sector on our side

[Sirveri]

53. The people united, can never be smited.

The trick is to get a critical mass of the populace to support social justice.

But if the people of the nation are too damned selfish and stupid to do that, then the issue is moot. So the correct course of action is quite simple. Leave. Land is pointless if it's been poisoned. Do what the Latinos of Georgia did, flee and take your labor and money with you and let them wallow in a pit of their own despair. The American people simply are too selfish and dickish to fight for.

[loyalsister]

55. Great GOTV message

if you want to discourage voters into staying home.
Is that message intended to encourage people to work to bring about some kind of change? Is there an expectation that people with families who are just trying to get by will take part in some kind of uprising?

[U4ikLefty]

56. We Are The Hope.

[ibegurpard]

58. so?

what's the alternative? i'll just keep fighting in my own little sphere of influence thanks.

[Blue_Tires]

66. the system definitely needs a major, revolutionary overhaul...

[brooklynite]

70. Unrec

70 messages in, I no better idea what "working outside the system" means to the OP or any other advocate.

The political process, flawed as it may be, is the only process we have that accomplishes anything. And I have elections to try and win.