White House: America's prisons more costly than helpful

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

Prison has become a big business in the U.S. in recent years even as crime has decreased. But a new White House report states that mass incarceration is bad for the economy.

The report published by the White House Council of Economic Advisers this week argues that the state and federal prison system is costly and ineffective at deterring crime, even though the incarcerated population has grown 4.5 times larger since 1980. The U.S. imprisons 2.2 million people, which is the highest incarceration rate among all developed countries and four times the global average, according to the report.

The crime rate in the U.S. has dropped since the 1980s but the report argues that incarceration has likely been less effective than demographic changes, new policing tactics and improving economic conditions. Violent crime rates fell by 39 percent and property crime rates fell by 52 percent between 1980 and 2014, according to data from the FBI and federal crime reports.

The increase in mass incarceration amid the declining crime rate was likely fueled by changes in criminal justice policy that called for long sentences and higher conviction rates, according to the report. Drug related arrests, for instance, grew by over 90 percent between 1980 and 2014.

It costs the U.S. nearly $80 billion each year to house its prisoners, and the White House called for new approaches that could save money and reduce crime at the same time. The report cited nearly 30 studies and concludes that police and education do more to reduce crime than strict sentences. Increasing spending on police forces by $10 billion annually, for example, could reduce crime by up to 16 percent, equivalent to 1.5 million crimes per year, the report suggests.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/white-house-americas-prisons-more-costly-than-helpful/ar-BBsoljs?li=BBnbfcN&ocid=edgsp

[Press Virginia]

1. Odd. I always thought prisons were places to put people when crime prevention failed

You know as like a punishment for committing the crime.
And how does one quantify the crimes not committed because people don't want to go to prison?

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

2. So all these pot smokers in prison are a good thing in your opinion?

This is Democratic Underground I hope you know.

[Press Virginia]

3. The President seemed to have a hard time finding those poor guys when

he was commuting sentences for people with drug related crimes. No problem finding heroine, meth and Coke traffickers who were repeat offenders though.

Nobody is going to prison for smoking pot in this country.

[Wounded Bear]

4. "Nobody is going to prison for smoking pot in this country."

And I live in a legal marijuana state.

[Press Virginia]

5. I stand by my statement.

examples given for guys going to prison for pot smoking were parolees who failed drug tests, violating the terms of their early release, and returning to prison to finish the sentence for they crime they were actually convicted for.

[silvershadow]

26. Who the fuck cares if they failed a drug test? Why are we drug testing? Oh, that's right...

to fill all of those private prisons. Why do we have private prisons? "The jails are overcrowded". D'oh.

A Clinton legacy achievement.

[Press Virginia]

27. The parole board that granted conditional early release to the convicted felon

as long as the convicted felon complied with the law, got a job and showed they were rehabilitated.
If the goal was to keep the prison filled there would be no need to have parole programs.

jails and prisons are completely different types of facilities

[Warren DeMontague]

28. Yeah, or yakno, a medical marijuana granny growing the plant in her basement instead of wanting to

buy it on the black market.

http://www.wptv.com/news/region-martin-county/stuart/stuart-woman-faces-10-years-in-prison-in-medical-marijuana-case

According to court documents, in 2014 deputies followed Kirouac home from a hydroponics store. A detective testified Thursday that there was a suspicion that Kirouac was growing marijuana.

[font size=5]Why are cops still following people home from hydroponics stores, if "no one is going to prison for marijuana"?[/font]

10 Fucking Years. Oh, "no one is in prison for marijuana, derp derp" Kevin Sabet? Patrick Kennedy? That you there, buddy?

That bullshit doesn't fly anymore, sorry.

Riddle me this, Batman: Is 10 years in prison an effective use of tax dollars, even for a "dangerous criminal" who has a bunch of plants in her basement?

Yay, Drug War!

[Press Virginia]

36. If you're trying to rebut what I said, you should actually address what I said

I didn't say no one was going to prison for pot.
I said no one is in prison for SMOKING pot.

[Warren DeMontague]

44. So what, precisely, is your point?

The drug war has been an out of control authoritarian clusterfuck for decades. I can run down a list of absolutely atrocious fallout from the thing and be here all day, starting with the guy locked in the DEA cell for 5 days with no food or water because he was in attendance at a party where pot was being smoked, the infant who had the flash grenade thrown into his crib in alabama, the guy in the wheelchair sentenced to 25 years for managing his own spinal pain. People shot in their own homes because the SWAT team misread the address numbers.

Everything is just fine and dandy with cops following sick people home from hydroponics stores and judges putting them in prison for 10 years over a few plants, because it is "rare" that anyone goes to prison for smoking pot? Drug warriors want a fucking medal for that? They couldnt put all the pot smokers in prison even if they wanted to, and believe me, some of them do.

THE LAW IS WRONG, and just because it is rarely enforced to the full extent it is written doesnt make it any better.

[Press Virginia]

45. My point was that the claim made in the post I responded to

was a lie. A myth. A falsehood.

[Warren DeMontague]

47. there are like 60 million pot smokers in this country. Obviously putting them all in prison is

Unrealistic.

Back when Texas outlawed consensual sex between gay adults in the privacy of their homes, before the Lawrence decision, I'm sure that it was "rare" for the state, as a modern turn of the millennium institution, to actually arrest or put gay couples in prison.

So would that make running around defending that noxious, crappy, anti-freedom legislation okay? justifiable? "Well, its not like we acually lock up the gay people for having sex in their own homes, heavy sigh heavy sigh"

No, the law was wrong, and it needed to go. And the fact that full enforcement of it wasnt realistic didnt make it okay.

[Press Virginia]

49. Find one person who is in prison for smoking pot

just one

[Warren DeMontague]

50. Again, what precisely are you trying to defend?

You seem awfully invested in this topic.

This took me five seconds, by the way. Im sure you'll be able to rationalize it, though.

http://www.drugpolicy.org/news/2014/04/louisianan-given-13-year-prison-sentence-possession-two-marijuana-cigarettes

While Noble has two prior low-level nonviolent drug offenses that occurred 8 and 20 years respectively before his arrest in this case, he has never been convicted of anything more serious than possession of drugs for personal use. Because of these prior, albeit dated drug offenses Mr. Noble fell within Louisiana’s Habitual Offender Statute, which brings his sentence for his marijuana possession offense to thirteen and one-third years and deprived him of the opportunity for earlier release on parole.

[Press Virginia]

51. I responded to a false claim

[Warren DeMontague]

52. Okay, so, 13 years for 2 joints in louisiana.

That doesnt sound like a false claim to me.

[Press Virginia]

53. thats not for smoking pot

and no one is doing 13 years for misdemeanor possession

[Warren DeMontague]

54. Arrested with 2.8 grams of marijuana. Is your point that he wasnt smoking it at the time?

You're wrong. The "one point" you're trying to hammer in this thread, supposedly divorced from all ideological considerations? Is WRONG. Small amount of marijuana for personal possession and this guy is facing over a decade of hard labor in prison.

That's the sort of autoritarian nightmare your apologia here is defending.



https://www.change.org/p/grant-clemency-to-bernard-noble-13-years-for-2-joints

You can go ahead and self-delete all those posts now, J. Edgar. Because you were wrong.

[Press Virginia]

55. 4th offense, adjudicated under the felony habitual offender law

He's not serving that time because of 2 joints.

[Warren DeMontague]

56. Why don't you spend 1/10th of that energy fixing the fucking system and law?

It doesn't matter what he did before, he's CURRENTLY facing that time because of the 2 joints. You think that's justified? He was on his bike with some weed in his pocket, and ALL his priors involved drug possession charges, nothing else. How precisely the fuck is the public served by sticking this guy in prison for a decade?

While Noble has two prior low-level nonviolent drug offenses that occurred 8 and 20 years respectively before his arrest in this case, he has never been convicted of anything more serious than possession of drugs for personal use. Because of these prior, albeit dated drug offenses Mr. Noble fell within Louisiana’s Habitual Offender Statute, which brings his sentence for his marijuana possession offense to thirteen and one-third years and deprived him of the opportunity for earlier release on parole.

Spin, Spin, Spin. You said find one, I found one in about 5 seconds. Now you want to move the goalposts. At least you're not trying to run with "but he wasnt actually smoking it at the time"

I think it's your turn to answer my question: why is it so important that the drug war - which almost everyone not directly on the gravy train acknowledges, is a failure - continue unimpeded?

[Press Virginia]

57. He's facing the time because he continually violated the same law

and charged with a felony as a habitual offender.
He made choices and his choices had consequences. I have no pity for people who made the same mistake over and over and still refuse to accept responsibility for their own actions.

As for the drug war what is your plan? Legalize everything? Will that end fights between dealers over market share or end crimes committed to procure legal drugs? Or will it just lead to more e of the same with no one being responsible for their own choices in life?

[Warren DeMontague]

58. You said find one, there's one. You were wrong, simple as that.

I think we certainly could start by legalizing, regulating, and taxing marijuana. And pardoning every non-violent offender in jail for the stuff, including this guy.

"Drugs" are not a monolith, and it's time we stop treating them as such. Marijuana is not nicotine is not alcohol is not heroin is not psilocybin is not caffeine.

But legislating the personal choices of consenting adults is a losing proposition, both philosophicallly and in terms of real-world workability. My inclination is to adopt a harm reduction strategy for certain harder drugs, but deal with most of them on a case by case basis. Our current approach has failed, and if the ONLY choices are a dichotomy between the authoritarian, 4th amendment destroying shitshow we have now and "legalize everything", then fuck yes I would go with the latter. But those aren't the only options.

You like to hang out in the gungeon, pretty funny that the crowd who goes fucking ballistic (excuse the pun) if anyone suggests legislation that might interfere with their ability to get an AR-15 at Wal-mart with no background check, is paralyzed with fear that hacky-sack wielding String Cheese Incident Fans might be able to smoke weed in their own homes without risking arrest.

[Press Virginia]

69. I said find one in jail for smoking pot

you come up with a guy convicted as a habitual offender on his 4th possession charge.

[Warren DeMontague]

74. zzzzzzzzz

we can go round and round, here, but I'm not going to argue with someone determined to try and defend the indefensible.

You're talking about a father sentenced to over 10 years in prison for two joints, and you're going on about "consequences". Step outside of whatever self-validating gibberish you have playing in your head for a minute, and think about that. How the fuck are the taxpayers served by that? They're not.

[Press Virginia]

76. Did he make the choice to break the law over and over?

complaining about the consequences is excusing his repeated behavior.

Had he been a habitual drunk driver who had had never injured anyone or destroyed any property would you be asking the same question?

We make decisions in life. Those decisions have rewards and consequences.

[Warren DeMontague]

78. So did you defend the Texas anti-sodomy statute that made it illegal for consenting adults of the

same sex to have sex in the privacy of their own home?

[Press Virginia]

86. Nope. But if I had been arrested under it, it wouldn't have been because

I didn't make a choice to violate it

[Separation]

72. Way to move the goal post.

Why was he arrested again? For smoking pot!

[Press Virginia]

73. No. He was arrested for possession.

He was convicted for possession as a habitual offender.

[Warren DeMontague]

82. Beyond the significant moral considerations of putting a father in prison for 13 yrs for 2 joints

if I were a taxpayer in LA I'd be pissed at paying to incarcerate this dude for the next decade plus, over a tiny amount of weed.

But you seem to think it's alright, because "justice" and "consequences". Yeah, the people in Saudi Arabia who get executed for blasphemy should have known better, too, because LAWN ORDER.

Derp

[Press Virginia]

87. Just as I'm sure you'd be pissed if a drunk driver got the same sentence

right?

[Warren DeMontague]

88. I had a friend killed by a drunk driver, buddy.

I never knew anyone killed by someone sitting in their living room smoking a joint.

[Press Virginia]

90. I'm not talking about vehicular homicide. I said drunk driving

No bodily injury, no property damage. Just a guy on the way home after happy hour.

Surely you're not going demand a victimless crime be punished with a harsh penalty that costs the taxpayers all that money over a little bit of alcohol

[Warren DeMontague]

91. Getting behind the wheel inebriated endangers everyone else on the road.

Whether or not someone gets hurt.

Smoking pot does not inherently endanger anyone else.

But you seem to be arguing something else, now- you think putting pot smokers in prison, as our tax dollars do now IS justifiable somehow?

[Press Virginia]

92. Smoking pot doesn't support an industry where people are routinely murdered?

doesn't that inherently put others in danger?

So would a habitual drunk driver, who injures no one get your sympathy if they got a 13yr sentence under the same LA law?

[Warren DeMontague]

93. No, it doesn't.

But even if it did, that would be one more argument against prohibition.



Sorry pal, there's just no way to justify all the pot smokers we put in prison.

[Press Virginia]

94. That family in Ohio must have been the first, huh?

must be nice to live in a bubble where reality can be ignored.
Makes it a lot easier to make victims out of people who didn't care about the law until it was time to face the consequences of their decision to ignore it

[Warren DeMontague]

95. Having lost the previous argument- if you can call it that- you were trying to make

Because clearly, yes, We do put people in prison for pot smoking, at taxpayer expense--- now you're trying to justify the laws that put them there.

Sorry, all the people our tax dollars pay to put in prison for pot smoking do not deserve to be put in prison, with our tax dollars, for pot smoking. And your continual defense of using our tax dollars to put people in prison for pot smoking will not postpone by even one day the inevitable point at which our tax dollars are no longer used to put people in prison for pot smoking!

[Press Virginia]

96. Bahahahahaha! Like we put people in prison for cocaine snorting and alcohol drinking?

you keep trying to spin that habitual offender felony possession into pot smoking, I'll keep reminding you of the facts.

[Warren DeMontague]

97. Yes, we have people in prison for pot smoking, but cannabis prohibition is coming to an end.

The people who have made their living putting non-violent otherwise law abiding citizens in prison for smoking marijuana are just going to need to find other lines of work.

[Press Virginia]

98. Sure we do. They're cell mates with guys who snorted a couple lines of Coke and

people who had a glass of wine at lunch.

Otherwise law abiding...a lot of murderers were otherwise law abiding before they broke the law too

[Warren DeMontague]

99. I realize these transitions are tough for people who have built careers on incarcerating pot smokers

However, despite decades of putting pot smokers in prison, the public no longer supports our longstanding policy of using taxpayer dollars to put people in prison for pot smoking. Therefore, the people whose jobs involve putting pot smokers in prison are going to need to accept the fact that although for years they have been able to use tax dollars to put pot smokers in prison, the days of putting pot smokers in prison at taxpayer expense being a lucrative career choice are coming to an end.

Although we have spent years and years and billions of tax dollars putting pot smokers in prison, prohibition is clearly a failed policy. It is time to stop putting pot smokers in prison at taxpayer expense.

[Press Virginia]

100. Bahahahaha! but the cocaine snorters have to stay? What about the wine drinkers?

certainly the people won't stand for the continued incarceration of those poor victims.

[Warren DeMontague]

101. Im sure the people on the drug war gravy train will find other careers that dont

Require putting pot smokers in prison at taxpayer expense, the way we currently put pot smokers in prison at taxpayer expense.


Maybe they should try and work at google. They love me at the google. Apparently i'm very quotable.

[Press Virginia]

102. as soon as someone is convicted of smoking pot

you be sure to let us know.

[Warren DeMontague]

103. Us?

Look around here, and see if you can find a single other person this board who agrees with you that the guy who is serving 13 years for 2 joints is facing reasonable "consequences for his choices" and deserves "no pity"

It's a lonely piece of philosophical real estate you've staked out there for yourself, chuckles.

[Press Virginia]

104. Habitual Offender Felony Posession

clearly he didn't care about the consequences when he chose to keep breaking the law. The fact that he is playing victim leads me to believe he hasn't learned who is responsible for his current predicament.

[Warren DeMontague]

105. And again, apparently you think it is a good use of our taxpayer dollars

To keep putting people like him in prison for marijuana possession.

[Press Virginia]

106. People like him....well, let's take a look at his criminal history and see

if we can figure out why he got that habitual offender enhancement, shall we?

Here is Noble's criminal record:

9-20-89 - Illegal possession of stolen goods
10-12-89 - First marijuana possession arrest
1-10-90 - Illegal carrying of a weapon and intent to distribute crack cocaine
11-14-90 - Possession with intent to distribute crack cocaine, second offense marijuana possession
2-11-93 - Third arrest for marijuana possession
1-30-96 - Arrested again for marijuana possession
1-16-98- Arrested a second time as a felon in possession of a firearm, drug possession and a third crack cocaine possession
2-25-99 Arrested a fifth time for marijuana possession
8-13-02 A sixth marijuana arrest
1-10-03 Seventh marijuana arrest, third crack arrest
10-27-10 Eighth marijuana arrest

Noble pled guilty six times for marijuana possession and twice for possessing crack. He received four suspended sentences and twice received inactive probations. He was acquitted only once for all these arrests.

Before his latest arrest and conviction, Noble only served a total of six months in prison despite being arrested eight times for possessing pot. He only received two years and six months for crack cocaine possession despite being arrested three times for it. He never served one day in jail for illegally carrying a gun.

Noble was eligible to be charged as a habitual offender with his third offense, but the Louisiana criminal justice system was lenient with him. He was allowed to plead to misdemeanor marijuana multiple times even though he was eligible to be charged with felonies. Despite his long criminal history the New Orleans DA still offered him a plea deal when he was arrested in 2010. He refused it.

He was then tried by a jury of his peers and convicted. It was only then that he was sentenced as an habitual offender.

[Warren DeMontague]

107. So he apparently dealt drugs.... in 1990. 26 years ago.

And he had a gun on him--- in 98.

The guy made some mistakes, particularly when he was younger, but he's not Ted Bundy.

Obviously not someone who made the greatest choices, however, the last time he was arrested for anything other than marijuana possession was 13 years ago. Most people recognize that draconian policies that sentence people with records to ridiculous prison terms over minor rule-breaking, are countereffective at best. Witness the California three strikes law, which was designed to deal with the Richard Allen Davises, and ended up putting away - for life, mind you - the guy who steals the piece of pizza or doesn't return the video to blockbuster, as the third "strike".

Most people- other than rule-crazy authoritarians- realize that we as a society are not served by this.

Now, you say "was allowed to plead to misdemeanor marijuana possession multiple times"- so what exactly are the penalties under LA law for "misdemeanor marijuana possession" versus felony? Do you think they are reasonable?

Apparently you believe it's okay to put people in prison for pot smoking (or, if we want to split semantic hairs, possession of 2 joints) if they do it multiple times. I don't. Pot smoking should not be a crime. Full fucking stop. So getting "caught" with it 10 times is no worse than getting "caught" with it once. Half the fucking country has smoked it at one point or another. It is fucking ludicrous to pretend that somehow all of us -from the President to half the SCOTUS to everyone else- are errant criminals because of that.

It shouldn't be a crime. AT ALL. Period. End of story.

And that's the direction things are headed, in case you haven't noticed. Most people in this country, particularly the Millennial generation, agree that it should be legal, regulated, and taxed.

[Press Virginia]

108. He had a gun on him twice. That's how he got a Felon in Possession of a firearm

He served a total of 6 months in jail for 6 marijuana, 2 crack and 2 gun possession charges. A misdemeanor guilty plea wouldn't have landed him in prison for 13 years.
You want to portray the guy as a victim of a state that seems to have gone out of its way to keep him OUT of prison. He wasn't even charged as a habitual offender, when he was first eligible.
NOW he gets caught and the state holds him accountable for his choice and he's suddenly a victim of the drug laws?
It shouldn't be a crime but it is. He got numerous breaks, even when he was a felon in possession of a gun.
He made a choice not just to break the law he'd broken 7 previous times but also to reject a plea deal for another misdemeanor.

I don't feel the least bit sorry for him. He's not a victim, he's a guy who was never truly held accountable for breaking the same law over and over again. This time he got hit with a sentence enhancement that he'd earned with not with this convictions but five, FIVE, convictions ago and suddenly he's the poster boy for what's wrong with drug sentencing?

[Warren DeMontague]

109. You asked for someone in prison for marijuana- 2 joints, okay, but functionally equivalent to

"smoking", and I found that particular guy in 5 seconds. He's not "the poster boy" for anything except, again, he hasn't done anything more serious than be in possession of pot since the 1st Dubya term.

To you, that sounds like someone who has "been given a lot of breaks". To me, it sounds like someone who has straightened out their life but still enjoys- like tens of millions of other Americans- the recreational use of cannabis, and for this he's back in the prison system for an egregiously long time. Hell, maybe like George Clinton, cannabis is part of his addiction recovery process from crack.

You didn't seem to want to comment on the sick lady who was growing her own medical marijuana, who had cops follow her home from the hydroponics store. The wheelchair bound guy in Florida sentenced to 25 years for managing his own spinal pain. The baby that got the flash grenade thrown in his crib. The people shot by the SWAT teams that went to the wrong house. The kid stuck in the DEA holding cell for 5 days with no food or water.

I'm sure you're aware- unless you're being deliberately obtuse- that there is a VERY long list of other egregious authoritarian excesses associated with the drug war. Go to stopthedrugwar.org or norml.org or the ACLU, if you're genuinely interested.

I was trying to remember who all this reminded me of, you know, the ol' "we must be able to get the people for the bogus crimes because that's how we get them for the real crimes" argument--- and then it hit me; Virginia! You're not related to that Cuccinelli fella, are ya? Remember him?

Sure ya do.

He was the guy who made the spurious argument that the Commonwealth of Virginia NEEDED to be able to outlaw consensual adult oral sex- you know, like blowjobs- but he wasn't actually interested in outlawing all the blowjobs, (honest!) so he claimed; but he wanted the blowjob law on the books because supposedly it made it easier for him to get the bad criminal baddies for the much more serious, criminal baddie crimes.

Well, the voters called bullshit on that noise, didn't they- because the voters figured out that if you want to get the criminals for the serious criminal baddie crimes, increase the fucking penalties for the actual crimes in question, and go from there. You don't get the bad crimes by turning something that shouldn't be a fucking crime in the first place- like, a consensual adult blowjob- into a crime.

[Press Virginia]

110. IOWs there is no one in prison for smoking pot and

Last edited Sun May 1, 2016, 12:10 PM - Edit history (2)

you are satisfied portraying a 47 yr old felon, with 7 prior convictions for possession, as a victim of the drug laws even if his sentence was a habitual offender enhancement and he rejected a plea deal where that enhancement could have been avoided?
If anyone is less deserving of sympathy it's someone who whines about punishment after receiving break after break for the same mistake.

The man wasnt thinking about his kids or his job when he broke the law. He didn't care if his money was ultimately going to a Mexican cartel or org that murdered, kidnapped or prostituted people so he could do what he wanted. He was only thinking about himself. And now he's playing a victim.

Oh and genius, my avatar is the WEST Virginia state flag. It's a whole other state.

[Warren DeMontague]

111. That tiny thing?

I thought it was a smashed bug in a little blue box. I was going off your name, champ.

[Press Virginia]

112. My name references the WVU basketball team

facts don't really seem to have much of a place in the formation of your opinions

[Warren DeMontague]

115. I thought either it meant you were with the local media

or it was some kind of weird sexual exhortation.

Oh, well.

[SammyWinstonJack]

59. Good gravy.

[Press Virginia]

63. Facts are facts

[Rex]

64. Yes and you seem unable to admit to being wrong when the facts are there for everyone to read.

So wasting more time with you gets a sub-thread where you have this condition of being proven wrong and yet not caring one wit.

Bye bye.

[Press Virginia]

67. Where was I wrong? I said no one is doing 13 years for misdemeanor possession

and I was right.

[Rex]

65. What a waste of time right?

All that concern trolling and no actual substance to their post...pathetic.

[Press Virginia]

68. Who needs substance when the truth is on your side?

[Warren DeMontague]

80. The truth is, the drug war is a failure and the clock is ticking on pot prohibition

People are waking up.

[Press Virginia]

84. Great. But he's in prison because he broke the law. He made a choice to

break the law. Whining about the penalty for his decision makes him into a victim instead of a person who is responsible for his own decisions in life.

[Warren DeMontague]

89. Yep.

Zactly, Rex old chap.

[Warren DeMontague]

29. Interesting that he missed the guy who just got 20 years for growing 17 plants in New Jersey

20 years.

http://www.nj.com/ocean/index.ssf/2016/01/man_sent_to_prison_for_growing_17_marijuana_plants.html

[Press Virginia]

35. The guy should have had a prior conviction and been a felon in possession of a gun

he might have had a better chance.

[ohnoyoudidnt]

43. The President can only pardon federal prisoners

The vast majority of pot related prisoners are in state prisons.

But it would have been nice to see any and all federal prisoners for marijuana charges pardoned.

[Warren DeMontague]

48. Yeah, but "no one goes to prison for smoking pot!" STOP PICKING ON THE DRUG WAR!!!!!!

Sure, cops wait outside the hydroponics store and follow granny home, then get a search warrant to find the plant in her basement she's growing to ease her chemo nausea, because oddly enough granny doesnt have her own black market weed connection, and then granny is sentenced to 10 years in state prison, but NO ONE IS GOING TO PRISON FOR SMOKING POT!

The system works!

[Press Virginia]

70. No one does. I didn't bring up pot smokers

going to prison. I made a statement of fact in rebuttal to a falsehood

[Warren DeMontague]

75. So the guy doing 13 years in Louisiana wasnt actually smoking it when arrested for the two joints.

Congratulations.

Maybe you should ask yourself why you're so threatened by this "falsehood" which isn't actually false. I'd sure like to know.

[Press Virginia]

77. That's like saying Ted Bundy was executed for a traffic violation.

as it was a traffic violation which led to his arrest

[Warren DeMontague]

79. Yeah, because pot smoking and serial killing are totally analogous.

[Press Virginia]

81. He wasn't charged with pot smoking. The pot smoking led to the possession charge.

bundy's traffic violation led to his murder conviction.

2 minor incidents that led to police contact both led to criminal charges

[Warren DeMontague]

83. 13 years for 2 joints.

That is what you are defending, Jack. Not taking Ted Bundy off the streets. Own it.

[Press Virginia]

85. Habitual offender. He clearly didn't care to follow the law

He's not a victim of anything but his own decisions

[Fumesucker]

6. Americans are about seven times as criminal as Canadians

Or at least that's the difference in incarceration rates, 7:1 US to Canada.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate

[Press Virginia]

7. The proper comparison would be crime rates not incarceration rates

[Fumesucker]

8. Why are Americans so much more criminal than Canadians?

Only criminals get incarcerated so clearly incarceration rates are a direct indication of criminal activity.

[Press Virginia]

9. Inceration is based on criminal convictions and the crime committed not

Criminal activity.

As it is possible to commit a crime and not be convicted or even sentenced to prison as a result of a conviction

[Fumesucker]

10. The cops in Canada are all incompetent and the place is overrun with criminals

It's sheer mayhem up there, much safer in the USA.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

[Press Virginia]

11. Or the Canadien crime rate is lower, with the types of crimes committed most often

being lesser in nature.

[Fumesucker]

12. That's what I said initially and you disagreed

Americans are much more criminal than Canadians.

[Press Virginia]

13. No. You compared incarceration rates

The US crime rate is 5x higher than Canada's with crimes like rape and murder being well, well above that.

5
Police officers 191.4
Ranked 25th. 243.6
Ranked 27th. 27% more than Canada
Rape rate 1.7
Ranked 47th. 27.3
Ranked 9th. 16 times more than Canada
Total crimes 2.52 million
Ranked 8th. 11.88 million
Ranked 1st. 5 times more than Canada
Violent crime > Gun crime > Guns per 100 residents 30.8
Ranked 13th. 88.8
Ranked 1st. 3 times more than Canada
Violent crime > Intentional homicide rate 1.56
Ranked 12th. 4.7
Ranked 7th. 3 times more than Canada
Violent crime > Murder rate 554
Ranked 31st. 12,996
Ranked 9th. 23 times more than Canada
Violent crime > Murder rate per million people 16.23
Ranked 62nd. 42.01
Ranked 43th. 3 times more than Canada
Violent crime > Rapes 576
Ranked 28th. 84,767
Ranked 1st. 147 times more than Canada
Violent crime > Rapes per million people 16.88
Ranked 47th. 274.04

[Fumesucker]

14. "Americans are about seven times as criminal as Canadians"

A direct quote from my first post...

Now you say it's only five times, eh?

I would say that still means Americans are much more criminal than Canadians.

[Press Virginia]

16. A claim you made based on incarceration rates.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7791707

[Fumesucker]

19. Why are Americans so much more criminal than Canadians, eh?

Since we evidently only disagree a modest percentage on the facts I'm interested in the why of those facts.

It's hard to credit that an imaginary line on the map makes such a huge difference (5:1 !) in people's inherent characteristics, perhaps there is something in the water.

[Press Virginia]

21. I must be missing your point

I thought you were doing one of those silly mass incarceration, failed criminal justice system whines that have become so popular with people these days

[hunter]

15. Punishment is a useless solution to any problem.

It's a tool of stupid, ignorant people.

Yeah, certain people ought to be locked away from the general population because they are violent or have a propensity for stealing things (especially big bankers!), but as punishment, prison simply doesn't work.

In our current system many people leave prison more violent than they were before, or with greater ability to steal things without being caught.

People leaving prison, having done their time, ought to leave with some insight into the nature of the personal problems that put them in prison, and with less desire to potentially lose their freedom again. But there's no need for prisons to be places of violence, bullying, rape, and other inhumane conditions. No good will come of that.

[Press Virginia]

17. Maybe we could just give them big hugs and wet, mushy kisses?

prison isn't a nice place but then it might have more to do with the people who are in there than the existence of prisons

[hunter]

18. I'm no sweetheart in the "real world."

Just practical.

People who pay thugs to do their dirty work disgust me.

[Press Virginia]

20. what thugs are you referring to?

[hunter]

22. I live in a violent gang-ridden city with a large homeless population and serious drug problems.

There are plenty of mean ignorant people to go around, on all sides of the law, and in all states of wealth.

Anyone who thinks the U.S. prison system is a positive force, something that makes this nation a better place, is deeply misinformed.

[Press Virginia]

23. Prisons are the consequences for poor choices made by people

they aren't here to make the country a better place. Although removing criminals from the community does have its benefits.

Nobody went to prison because they were forced to break the law. They made choices in life...and the results of those choices gave them more choices....the culmination of their choices in life was a prison cell. They have choices in prison. Some learn from the experiences and make better choices moving forward, others do not.

[hunter]

24. Oh bother. "Don't make any poor choices, dear!"

If only it was so simple... that didn't work on my own kids, and it doesn't work on anyone else's kids.

It's actually about giving people what they need and teaching them how to get along in ordinary society.

Teaching is hard work.

Punishing a dog, or a kid, or a drug addict, or a homeless person, or a mentally ill person, or a criminal... that's easy in the short term but has very negative consequences in the long run. Most people will learn to stay out of trouble when provided basic necessities, a safe place to simply exist, a meaningful community they can contribute to, and opportunity.

The legal system has to be fair too. Ours is not.

People of color are significantly overrepresented in the U.S. prison population, making up more than 60 percent of the people behind bars. Despite being only 13 percent of the overall U.S. population, 40 percent of those who are incarcerated are black. Latinos represent 16 percent of the overall population but 19 percent of those who are incarcerated. On the other hand, whites make up 64 percent of the overall population but account for only 39 percent of those who are incarcerated.

--more--

https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/criminal-justice/news/2015/05/28/113436/8-facts-you-should-know-about-the-criminal-justice-system-and-people-of-color

[Press Virginia]

25. Why not teach people to be accountable for their own decisions in life?

its easy to blame society or some other person for your failures. It's easy to be a victim.
Being accountable for choices you make is much more difficult.
You can't control everything but you can control the decisions you make in the course of the next minute, hour, day etc.
I could blame my parents for their failures to give me things or teach me to do something but where does that get me? Am I better off as a person? Is society better?

Are POC in jail because they are POC or because they chose to victimize others? Should we not hold them accountable for their choices because they are POC?

If you hold someone to a lower standard, based soley on the color of their skin how are you making society better?

[hunter]

37. A disproportionate number are in jail because the system isn't fair.

White kids make as many "poor choices" as black kids. Adolescents and young adults, males especially, tend to be reckless. I was reckless, and it was frequently rather obvious my "white privilege" card was in play in my interactions with law enforcement. I was a nice kid with mental health "issues," not some big scary Black or Mexican guy. In this racist nation a black or Hispanic kid can be an adult at fourteen or even less, while a white kid's "youthful indiscretions" can stretch past his twenties and into his thirties. Look at George W. Bush.

White kids don't get shot by the police or sent to jail as often as black kids for crimes that are equally corrosive to the fabric of U.S. society.

I hold everyone to high standards.

You're not even close.

[Press Virginia]

38. FBI crime statistics don't support your claim about black vs white crime

and neither do those on police shootings.

But carry on with the narrative and don't worry about the truth

[hunter]

39. I said "corrosive to the social fabric." There was a reason for that.

The FBI "narrative" is bullshit.

[Press Virginia]

40. oh? So it's a conspiracy to make people think blacks commit crimes at higher rates

than white people?

You made a claim that is not supported anything other wishful thinking.

Why are more POC in prison? According to you it's not that they commit more crimes it's because white people did something.
In other words, POC are victims and not responsible

[hunter]

41. Must be something about "personal responsibility." Yeah, that's the ticket.

Blacks and Mexicans must be lacking in that, otherwise there wouldn't be so many of them in prison.



Yes, I am mocking you.

[Press Virginia]

42. oh no! I'm being mocked by someone whose beliefs aren't supported by facts

it's like talking to a Jehova's witness except you don't have a comic book to give me.

[SammyWinstonJack]

61. Nice black and white world you live in.

[Press Virginia]

62. Break the law or don't break the law

Where is the gray area?

[Rex]

66. Not at all, they are enjoying this small amount of attention.

Same shit, different user account. I can't believe people still fall for concern trolling.

[Press Virginia]

71. Hahahahaha! Concern trolling? For correcting

a false claim and stating the people have a choice to break the law or not?

[Warren DeMontague]

30. The drug warriors know their gravy train is not popular anymore, hence the whining about this stuff.

Unfortunately for the people who have built their careers on such, the public enthusiasm to kick down the doors of consenting adults and drag them off to prison for things like smoking pot is not nearly as great as it used to be.

[Victor_c3]

31. That's a funny picture

I know it's not the point of your post, but that picture struck me as hilarious.

Those guys are trying to look tough and intimidating so that you'll follow the law, but I just can't get beyond how soft and squishy they look. I know it's the former infantryman in me, but look at their uniforms (they're not all wearing the same pieces), the chin straps on their helmets and (some have then on their chin, others on their neck, and still others don't have them on at all), and the way the guy in the front is holding his rifle. Not to mention they look woefully out of shape. That unit reeks of a lack of discipline and training.

[Warren DeMontague]

32. to be fair, it probably doesn't require tip top physical prowess

to arrest the guy who is sitting in his living room minding his own business with a bong, a bag of doritos, and a copy of Lord of the Rings playing on the blu-ray.

[Victor_c3]

33. Your point is all too correct n/t

[Victor_c3]

34. It's interesting seeing the arguments in the thread above

the choice is pretty clear. Either we keep our criminal justice system as a purely punitive (which obviously doesn't work as that's our focus right now and we have a sky-high incarceration rate) or we shape it to be more rehabilitative.

I'm appalled when I see 15 and 16 year old kids get 10 or 20 year sentences with no chance to change their lives. I say give these guys good vocational programs and teach them how to be welders, plumbers, mechanics, give them degrees and give the a chance to succeed in life without having to break the law.

Yes, people need to be punished but at the same time we need to give them the tools to make it in society without having to resort back to crime.

[davidn3600]

46. Americans have never wanted their prisons to be rahabilitative

Many even on DU openly cheer on the prison rape jokes.

[GOPblows431]

60. Obama is spot on

Sadly, I doubt there will be much progress in reforming our terrible prison system. A shame really

[Jeffersons Ghost]

113. K&R

[Adrahil]

114. This is a consistent story.

If we invested in direct jobs infrastructure, like the WPA, or the CCC, we could cut public assistance programs pretty drastically and actually get some benefit for it, but that would make too much sense.

[Warren DeMontague]

116. Yeah, a lot of things would make sense.

Like "where are we going to get the money to pay for better social services? If only there were something we haven't thought of"

http://www.ktvz.com/news/Oregon-reports-marijuana-tax-revenues-nearly-7-million/39126282

[Warren DeMontague]

117. We need to stop filling prisons with pot smokers.

Our policy of filling prisons with people for shit like pot smoking is an abject failure!