This happens all the time in Christian America

[Matrosov]

This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by LostOne4Ever (a host of the General Discussion forum).

or does it?

A Pakistani woman who was set on fire for refusing a marriage proposal has died of her injuries.

Maria Sadaqat, a young schoolteacher, was attacked in her home by a group of men on Sunday and died in hospital in Islamabad on Wednesday.

Her family say she had turned down a marriage proposal from the son of the owner of a school she had taught at.

But it's just an isolated incident, right?

Nearly 1,100 women were killed in Pakistan last year in so-called honour-killings, the country's independent Human Rights Commission says.

But let's not confuse culture and religion! Oh, er, wait..

In February, Punjab province, where the attack on Miss Sadaqat happened, passed a landmark law criminalising all forms of violence against women.

However, more than 30 religious groups, including all the mainstream Islamic political parties, threatened to launch protests if the law was not repealed.

The Council of Islamic Ideology proposed making it legal for husbands to "lightly beat" their wives.

This can't be true! It must come from some right-wing extremist website. Storm Front? Even Faux News?

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-36425946

Just another Islamophobic and racist post. If other cultures want to lightly beat, burn, and kill women, who are we to judge? After all, this happens all the time in Christian America. Or does it?

[Iggo]

1. Okay.

[gratuitous]

2. My goodness!

One might almost get the impression that any number of people mask their misogynistic proclivities behind a religious screen. Whether it's beating women, setting them on fire, restricting their medical care and reproductive choices, privately imprisoning them, and enslaving them, it seems that there are any number of men and women all over the globe who will excuse their activity by an appeal to religion.

[maxsolomon]

3. Well, no

But America is still JUST AS BAD!

[clarice]

36. What is your REAL agenda?nt

[Binkie The Clown]

4. Be careful. Sometimes speaking the truth here can get you into trouble.

Just a friendly warning. There are people waiting in the wings to jump on anyone who points out cruelty and misogyny performed in the name of religion.

There are some who don't seem capable of making the distinction between "Muslims" and "Islam". That there are millions of good and moral Muslims does not change the fact that Islam condones such evils as cruelty and misogyny. It is possible to hate Islam without hating Muslims. See the difference?

Next they will tell me that because I hate Donald Trump and everything he stands for, I am a bigoted Trumpophobe. Surely we must, as liberals, respect and tolerate Trumpism, just as we must respect and tolerate, for example, female genital mutilation done in the name of religion. Isn't that what we liberals do? Respect every belief system?

[Arazi]

5. Yeah, Islam is in a fucking crisis. Modernize, moderate, have a reformation - anything!

But move the hell out of the middle ages

[LanternWaste]

6. Given the opportunity, I've little doubt American secular and religious fundamentalists would take u

"After all, this happens all the time in Christian America..."

Given the opportunity, I've little doubt American secular and religious fundamentalists would take up that flag again, as we held it tightly and with righteous pride in the past. It was a flag flown proudly in the twentieth century when 4,500 blacks were hung. Flown proudly again when we force-fed women in our righteous pursuit of denying them a vote. Flown (with little admission) to illustrate one in three women suffer abuse at the hands of American males.


"But it's just an isolated incident, right?" I'm certain that your precious salt would ease the wounds of Matthew Shepard.

[leftynyc]

7. I can't believe you're even trying this shit

Were any Christian groups clamoring for changing the laws that make murder illegal so they could go out and wantonly kill gays? Because THAT would be comparable. Just fucking stop this moral relativism crap - it only makes you look foolish.

[dbackjon]

10. Actually Yes, there are Christian Groups, and GOP Politicians that want to legalize Murdering Gays.

And American Evangelical Groups are behind the anti-gay laws that included capital punishment in several African Countries.

[leftynyc]

17. Name them

I want the names of those evangelical groups AND the GOP politicians that want it legal to kill gays here in the US. I think that's something Americans would want to know about. Of course that has fuck all to do with honor killings which killed over 1000 JUST IN PAKISTAN - but I'll play.

[dbackjon]

19. Look up Kevin Swanson

And his association with the GOP right wing.


That is one of hundreds.



Fine, don't believe me.


Fucking hetero privledge

[leftynyc]

20. Hetero priviledge?

You assume far too much. If I have to look him up, he can't be very important. Who are the GOP candidates that wish to kill the gays with impunity and with the force of law behind them?

[clarice]

35. Lefty... you know as well as I, that there is NO winning this....

certain people have such preconceived notions that it is useless to argue with them.
I am reminded of the Jonathon Swift quote... "You cannot reason with a person on a subject that reason hasn't lead them to."

[dbackjon]

37. Ted Cruz for one. But nothing I post will change your mind

You think that there are no threats to gays from Christians, so enjoy your ignorance

[clarice]

27. OMG....PLEASE be serious.nt

[smirkymonkey]

47. Jeeze! I can't effing believe some people!

[Throd]

8. I too, like to transfer negative attributes from one group to another.

I too, like to transfer negative attributes from one group to another. Blah blah blah, insert bullshit word salad mentioning bias, end on condescending note.

How'd I do?

[Dr. Strange]

44. By Jove, I think you've got it!

[Dreamer Tatum]

14. I find that argument among the stupidest ever advanced. In world history.

"If it wasn't illegal, they'd do it."

Think about how laughably stupid that is.

[clarice]

38. What is your REAL agenda?nt

[kentauros]

9. I have to ask you this one basic question:

Do you understand why culture is brought up as a reason for such actions?

Because if you don't understand, then there's no point in discussing such topics with you, and everyone else who dismisses out of hand the concept of underlying culture.

[Fix The Stupid]

11. Doesn't and hasn't their religion shaped their culture? n/t

[kentauros]

16. Culture is always what lies beneath human actions.

It often goes back to tribal times. What was the religion back then? Doesn't really matter. How humans treat each other is based on their culture, not their religion. That came later, and adapted to the culture.

[Throd]

22. Often they become intertwined.

[kentauros]

26. Yes they do.

Yet, culture always happens before religion.

[Throd]

29. And then religion modifies the culture.

[kentauros]

33. The point -being-

that culture is the underlying cause of what humans do in life. Religion and philosophy come later.

I'm starting to get the impression that you don't understand this simple concept, either.

[Throd]

39. Culture isn't encased in amber, unaffected by outside influences that come later.

Cultures evolve over time, for better or worse.

[kentauros]

40. Then you are refusing to read -and- understand what I'm writing.

Here, let me make it as simple as possible for you:

1) culture is developed.

2) Religion/philosophy is developed.

Nowhere have I stated that evolution of either doesn't take place. If you can't understand even chronological order, then I refer you back to my comment to the OP, especially the second part of my initial post.

[Throd]

42. There is no chronology if the are simultaneously evolving in concert with one another.

The existing underlying culture affects how religion will be applied which is why some practices of the same religion are worse than others.

[kentauros]

43. *sigh*

Then I have no more time for you.
Have fun with your semantics for those willing to play.

[Buzz cook]

12. This doesn't happen in secular America

Xtians believe in murder as a form of religious expression. They just can't get away with it as much because of our secular government.

[Nye Bevan]

15. Yep, the UK has an established Christian church entwined in the state,

and just look at all the religiously motivated murders there that are inspired by the Church of England.

[Buzz cook]

51. You mean the UK

Where secularism is even higher that the US?

Face it kid, if it weren't for the enlightenment, there'd still be witch burning.

Why you've chosen to champion xtianity is beyond me.

[treestar]

13. I know you think this proves something you want to be true

The cultures are different. We have the First Amendment which says no religion is to be established. They don't. That is one problem for women there.

We do however, while we don't have honor killings, we do have people who kill their spouses. We have laws against that. It looks like Pakistan does too, though there are some extremists who don't want it that way. Somewhere we do have extremists who don't like our laws against abuse, but they are not likely to win and there's nothing here to prove these Pakistani extremists will either.

But we do have problems with spousal abuse - though it may not be based on religion specifically, we can't really feel all that superior except to say we don't have an established religion. I don't think Christianity really allows for beating any wives, not that I know of (though it does seem to tell women they are to obey their husbands, but it doesn't specifically grant the husbands any punishment power - indeed it tells them they must love their wives). So maybe we can say we are superior because of that. Though our desperate attempt to be superior to others due to the fact others have a worse religion could require more study. We know little about the Koran, being nonMuslim Americans, and it indeed may not authorize such a thing either. Because people say they adhere to a religion does not prove their opinions about it are absolute.

So I would say isolating some cases that specifically took place in one of several Muslim countries does not prove the Muslims inherently more violent than we are. Our cases may not be based in religion or called honor killings, but we do have a problem. We have rates of rape, abuse, child abuse, etc., and there is nothing in the study to prove that their rates of unpleasantness are higher. We do have better legal protections for women - that I will grant - the 14th Amendment is a thing we are lucky to have, which people in many countries don't, so their laws will allow discrimination. Maybe we could pat ourselves on the back about that - or admit we were lucky we were born in a country founded by some very wise and smart people.

[GulfCoast66]

50. We have the amendments you mention

Because the people in America at the time, pretty much all Christian, enacted them.

[malaise]

18. So who exactly is responsible for the slaughter and abuse of so many women

in America by their so called partners

[clarice]

28. Why does it always come back to AMERICA ? I don't understand that agenda.nt

[Fumesucker]

45. Mainly because America is where most of us live and have some nominal amount of power over

Yes, the problems are worse there, doesn't mean they don't exist right here at home too and home is what people end up wanting to talk about the most.

Note I'm just answering your question, not trying to get involved in the argument.

[clarice]

49. And I get that 1000%...and thank you for your thoughtful response...

It just seems to me that many people (you NOT included) would rather fall back on the "America does it too"
logic, than to admit that there may be a problem in many areas of the world (I'm speaking specifically about The Middle East
when I say this). I don't care how people try to spin it....these are the facts. Some people who CLAIM to be progressive
make excuses for a region that....

1. Kills and harasses gays
2. Treats Women like second class citizens
3. Will light people on FIRE because of there religious views.
4. Will openly admit that their culture is ruled by theocratic entities.

Now... re-read carefully the 4 items that I just cited. Then tell me , on the surface, how can anyone who pretends to be Liberal
condone and defend these perpetrators? I will forever be at a loss to explain it.

PS...just watch... the "Christians do it too" gang will be out shortly.

[Fumesucker]

54. It gets a lot more personal when you become a victim however minor of these sorts of acts

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=229957

The motivation and the hate are still there, the actions may be less violent but the intent of causing pain to the outsider is the same.

I'm not sure there is anyone completely free of bigotry, I know I'm not.

[LeftyMom]

21. My mother broke up with her boyfriend. He crashed his car into hers, trapping her,

pulled out a can of gas and doused her car. He was struggling with a lighter when a bystander tackled him and saved my mother's life.

Men who hate women are everywhere.

[clarice]

34. Yes, but it is only SANCTIONED in certain parts of the world.nt

[smirkymonkey]

48. Thank YOU!

I can't believe people can be so willingly obtuse!

[clarice]

52. Monkey.... I am beyond believing that people are just "obtuse"

I think that there is a definite agenda to some of these posts. How else could you explain the glaring lack of logic?

[Quantess]

23. Good post!

Liberals who scream islamophobia when you discuss the ugly truth about muslim extremism have let their priorities be known. They are perfectly willing to throw women, gays, transgendered people, atheists and people of other religions under the bus.

[clarice]

32. And for the LIFE of me... I'm still trying to figure out the Liberal agenda on this issue.......

every time I try, I get the old, used, right wing card thrown at me.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

24. Do you honestly think American "christians" --

don't beat and kill their family members based on their (stupid) interpretation of their religion??? And as for culture, the male dominated American culture has LONG been pretty OK with giving the wife a good beating if she were "uppity".

[Throd]

25. No it hasn't. What a load of crap.

[clarice]

30. What is your TRUE agenda?nt

[Maedhros]

31. On behalf of my muslim friends, I will now ignore you.

Better than getting a hide for telling you what I think of you.

/bye.

[dembotoz]

41. our death rate due to firearns is pretty much 2nd to none motives????? not reported

would grant you a higher death rate in some war zones but lot of shooting in chicago last weekend and it seems all they are missing is tanks and helicopter gunships

how many spouses are killed due to domestic strife?

if we use guns does it make it all ok?

[TrappedInUtah]

46. Men who do horrific things to women are everywhere

However, it seems like such acts are more condoned and socially acceptable within a particular religion. One which really needs to get out of the dark ages. Christianity moved beyond burning witches and the inquisition. It's time for a different religion to move beyond their mainstream misogynistic viewpoints.

[pauldp]

53. "Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands"

"Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything." - Ephesians 5:22

Colossians 3:18
"Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord."

These get read EVERY Sunday all over this country. - interpreted in various ways - some extreme. Many would like to see more laws backing this crap up.

[LostOne4Ever]

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