What's wrong with "healthcare" in America. . . .

[Triana]

Simply, it's only objective is PROFIT-driven GREED - NOT "health". NOT "care".

[think]

1. "Of the 25 wealthiest nations, we're the only one that doesn't provide basic health coverage."

http://www.politifact.com/virginia/statements/2015/sep/01/dan-gecker/dan-gecker-says-us-only-wealth-nation-without-univ/

[pberq]

2. Bernie Sanders' proposal would save us $5 trillion over the next 10 years

Plus it would cover everyone - no more copays, premiums, or deductibles. It would free up doctors to provide the best care, rather than dealing with what is covered by the for-profit health insurance industry.

http://dollarsandsense.org/blog/2016/01/chelsea-clinton-is-confused-about-single-payer.html

. . .In all, Senator Sanders’ proposal would save us well over $500 billion in the first year with growing savings thereafter while the single-payer agency restrains the continuing accumulation of monopolistic profit and bureaucratic bloat. These savings would allow us to provide access to health care to the millions who remain without insurance, and the millions more who remain underinsured by policies with such large deductibles or cost-sharing that they remain vulnerable to financial ruin.

For the privilege of receiving inadequate health insurance through private companies, Americans can expect over the next decade to pay over $13 trillion in, what amounts to, private taxes imposed by insurers on behalf of the government that mandates that we have health insurance. Add to this, another $5 trillion that under the Clinton health program we can expect to pay in out-of-pocket spending for medical costs not covered by health insurance. Instead, with Sanders’ single payer plan, we would save enough in reduced administrative waste and monopoly profits that we could cover everyone’s medical needs and still take home savings of over $1,700 per person per year for the next decade.

[AntiBank]

23. you still have copays here in Sweden around 200 usd a year

max on visits and 250 usd max a year for meds. but thats almost nothing and many never come close to maxing out.

[hobbit709]

67. And here you have a $5000 deductible with $50 copays each time afterwards.

So poor people can't afford to use the "healthcare" they allegedly have.

[Doctor_J]

98. And my annual max is $13,000/year on take home pay of $40k

Almost a third. And Hillary thinks that's great.

[Wounded Bear]

3. They turned it into a for-profit industry...

It used to be somewhat of a system.

[moondust]

4. Retired lawyer

I played golf with the other day said he reads JAMA over coffee in the morning. He said with some big insurers dropping out of the ACA exchanges we're probably going to end up moving to a single payer system. I said I thought that was probably a good idea.

"I don't," he snapped.

[Ferd Berfel]

12. Was the lawyer a Clinton Supporter or a Republican?

Based on arguments I've had here, it could go either way

Clinton's been against single payer.

[moondust]

18. Guessing a 1% Dem.

Maybe with investments in health care companies and/or insurers if he's reading the JAMA over morning coffee to stay on top of things. He went to a liberal state university and sent his kids there as well. Probably a Clinton type.

[Auggie]

13. I hope we evolve towards a Single Payer option. But it's going to be a huge battle.

The for-profit insurance industry will fight it with all their resolve.

[Ferd Berfel]

20. ...and so must we

they are sociopaths and greed slime and must be crushed if the rest of us are to survive
It's that simple.

[Auggie]

24. LOL

In honor of the Great Muhammad Ali, you are not pulling any punches.

[Ferd Berfel]

25. ..

[1939]

5. That compensation is coming out of the overhead expenses that the ACA allows the insurance companies

It is at the expense of the lower level clerks and jerks in their office and not at the expense of the insured.

[Ferd Berfel]

14. Huh?

ALL of the profit, allowed or otherwise, that is paying for these insane salaries, is made by denying coverage
and therefore it's coming from killing people, injuring people, and causing pain and misery.

These creatures are slime - and some are Clinton donors which is why she is against single payer.

It's degenerate, disgusting and sociopathic.

[One_Life_To_Give]

59. They have to spend atleast 85% (80% small groups) on actual coverage

http://consumersunion.org/research/health-reform-holding-insurance-companies-accountable-getting-a-better-deal-on-your-coverage/

Part of what is in the ACA. Although it also allows Insurance Co's to bill the gov't if their medical expenses become too high as well. Thus guaranteeing a minimum profit on each policy sold to either Individual/Group/Employer or Gov't.

[ljm2002]

75. That clause provides an incentive to overcharge...

...so that the 15% they are allowed as profit is a larger figure. And we do see that the insurance companies continue to gouge us, increasing their rates every year, sometimes by ridiculous amounts, even under the ACA.

That is why single payer is a better system: no difficult, complex formulas that end up creating perverse incentives and costing us all more.

[Silver_Witch]

74. Exactly!!!

[litlbilly]

34. total bullshit. Where did you come up with that crap? Dollar Bill Maquire got paid a billion from

United Health. He got that way by denying coverage. That is the simple truth behind all those greedy bastards.

[1939]

91. Think

The ACA limits overhead expenses and profit to a fixed percentage of the take. The rest has to be spent on the medical care payout. If the higher level salaries are excessive, that comes at the expense of everything else in overhead and profit.

Yes, prior to ACA, there was no limit.

[litlbilly]

92. Insurance companys still get to set the rules and rip everyone off. they dont need

to be there. They serve no purpose other than to steal everyone's money.

[1939]

94. Insurance companies serve no purpose?

When someone runs into your car and you are boycotting the insurance industry and you have to pay to fix it yourself?

[litlbilly]

96. insurance for so called healthcare serve no purpose. I didnt say all insurance. duuhh

[litlbilly]

97. dont bother replying, its off to ignore for you:)

[KG]

6. healthcare was totally a fucked up system. so the way to fix it was to require everybody to join in?

ACA is a joke.

[MisterP]

10. yeah, you'd think Liz Fowler wrote it or something

[roamer65]

7. The problem? Private insurance companies.

They need to be completely removed from the equation.

[Snarkoleptic]

27. So true.

When I argue with anti-single-payer types, I always let them go on for a while then ask "What value does a for-profit health insurance company add to our healthcare delivery system.?". This is where the grasping-at-straws and subject-changing goes into high gear.

[Corporate666]

45. And what will that do?

Have you looked at the *actual* spending on health and where the money goes? If insurance companies were entirely removed from the system, you're looking at maybe 5% total cost savings.

In your view, if we lowered health insurance costs by 5%, the problem would be solved? I disagree.

[jeff47]

53. Sure, that's why every other industrialized nation spends way less than what we do per capita.

Because of that magic 5%.

[athena]

85. Please provide a reference for your 5% claim.

I find it very hard to believe. I suspect you pulled the number out of the air.

[Triana]

64. yep. Absolutely. n/t

[abelenkpe]

76. +1000 nt

[Corporate666]

8. CEO Pay is not the problem

it's just a distraction from the real problem, but it provides a good rallying cry for people who don't think deeply about issues to get their envy and jealousy in a froth over.

[Ruby the Liberal]

28. And the real problem is?

[Corporate666]

35. the largest problem

is the pay levels of doctors and nurses, who earn 200-500% more than foreign counterparts and collectively make up about a third of all health care spending.

[Ruby the Liberal]

37. Do their foreign counterparts

graduate with $100-$300k in student loan debt and have to carry $200k a year in medical malpractice insurance?

[Corporate666]

43. no

and now you're getting to the core of the problem.

Complaining about CEO pay is a total distraction and a non-issue.

But even with student loan debt and malpractice insurance, the pay levels of US care givers is massively higher.

[hunter]

50. Cuban doctors don't get paid much. And overall, Cubans are healthier than U.S. Americans.

Is that what you want?

Or perhaps you are thinking of some kind of fast food clinical model, where a kid who barely passed high school is called "doctor" because he's the guy who draws your blood and sticks your arm in the machine at the Wal Mart clinic, the guy who hands you your computer generated diagnosis and prescription, or tells you you'll be dead soon because your insurance claim was rejected.



Idiocracy, here we come!

[notadmblnd]

55. "I dont want to sound like a dick or nothing, but it says on your chart- you're fucked up"

Dr. Lexus- from the movie Idiocracy

I can see it coming

This is not the clip with that quote. That clip, some could view as offensive

[Nevernose]

93. That's how capitalism works

The labor of nurses is in short supply, yet there is high demand. Doctors usually have to be paid exorbitant amounts so they can pay back their $500,000 in student debt.

[AntiBank]

29. ridiculous, just those 6 salaries listed total up to 158 million usd

The median wage per year in the USA is around 27,000 USD per year. Those 6 salaries are what 5852 people make.

Also, total out of pocket expense here in Sweden is capped at around 450 usd for ALL visits and meds.

Those 6 CEO's make what 350 THOUSAND Swedes pay per year MAX total.

That's an insanely broken USA system.

I think you made a wrong turn and ended up on the wrong board. Try the von Mises Institute or some other vulture capitalist site to peddle your piddle.

[mwooldri]

40. That's 1/10th of NHS England's annual budget.

In other words their combined salary could pay for the healthcare costs for 5.1 million people in England. Or nearly everyone in Scotland.

[Corporate666]

46. You're off by an order of magnitude

The NHS England's budget is around 100 billion pounds.

I mean - come on - let's at least use common sense here. Does it really sound correct that ~$150 million USD could pay for the health care of 5 million people? $30 per person sounds like a reasonable cost of care per capita?

[mwooldri]

62. You're right. I'm off.

But still they're way overpaid.

[Corporate666]

41. You couldn't have proved my point better if you tried

I wrote "provides a good rallying cry for people who don't think deeply about issues to get their envy and jealousy in a froth over"

And you came along and did precisely that.

The world doesn't work on sound bytes passed along by naive inexperienced 20-somethings on internet echo chambers who think they have it all figured out based on zero relevant experience. Your post is perfectly illustrative of exactly what I said. You did not identify a problem at all - just whined about other people who make a lot more money than you.

[AntiBank]

49. Obvious violator of civil discourse, you know nothing about me that entitles you to call me a troll

You are way out of line.

[AntiBank]

56. thank you jury system nt

[irisblue]

36. what do you see as the 'real problem' then' C666?

[Corporate666]

42. There are two

1) The cost of the US system

2) Access to care

Access to care is largely a function of the first problem. Over 90% of people have insurance, and those that don't still have access to emergency care. We don't have millions of people dying on the street. What we do have, however, is a massive bill for our care.

The CDC publishes unbiased data on health care spending. But nobody bothers to look at that data. They prefer to rail about "fat cat CEO's" and the like.

If one looks at the data, one will discover that the largest costs are salaries of doctors and nurses along with money spend on hospitals and equipment. Hospitals don't have high profit margins so there isn't a ton of money to be saved there. Drug spending is something like 10% of all costs. Insurance about the same.

If we made it illegal for insurance companies to turn a profit, and we made it illegal for drug companies to turn a profit, and we made it illegal for hospitals to turn a profit, we would be looking at maybe 10-15% lower health care costs.

I know a lot of people feeling crushed by health care costs and it's not too expensive by 10-15% - but more like double or triple what they can reasonably afford. The only way to get health care costs to that level (European levels) is to get health care worker pay in line with european levels, as well as reasonable rationing of services.

When people focus on things that aren't part of the issue, they are actively harming those of us that would like to see the real issue get resolved. And so those people are actively helping and supporting the problems in health care by attacking those who are interested in the real issues.

(I am not referring to you, but people like the guy above who regurgitate the Reddit talking points they read this afternoon that made them an expert on the economics of health care).

[One_Life_To_Give]

60. A Nurse at $100k in Boston is over paid then?

That is only a 4yr degree for Nursing, and the reference above is shift work. So what should we compensate our Dr's with their 4yr + 4yr + residency? Any more for Cardiology or Neuro?

[athena]

70. It is definitely a problem.

When people are dying in this country for lack of health insurance, from diseases that could easily have been cured if treated early enough, the fact that insurance companies are able to pay their CEOs so many millions of dollars is a problem. Anyone with a heart could see that.

[pansypoo53219]

9. and NONE OF THOSE guys EVER cleaned a bedpan. CEO PAY IS BULLSHIT.

[glinda]

11. We have to pay private for me and soon my husband's retirement fund will be at zero.

That is one thing that is wrong with HC.

[Ferd Berfel]

15. kind of a major point I'd say.

[kentauros]

16. What we have is "InsuranceCare"

not "HealthCare"

[tularetom]

32. Or "Obamasurance"

All that talk about controlling costs and limiting profits to a certain percentage was all bullshit. Costs are spiraling out of control and one day the subsidies will disappear. But by then Obama will have left office and somebody else will take the blame for whatever has to be done to fix the mess. Or take the credit if they finally wake up and realize the way to fix it is European style single payer.

What I want to know is who could not see this coming?

[kentauros]

38. I'm sure plenty could see it coming.

We were all disappointed when we got what we got, and told by everyone that it was a step in the right direction. It could only get better.

The problem is that we've now taken steps backward, as I'm sure plenty also foresaw. We watched as the insurance companies got their way, grumbled that at least we were taking that proper forward step, and hoped that it would continue that way.

We were duped, and we know it.

And yet, until we have someone in power as President, and enough control over the House, we will continue to be duped, accept that as just the way things are, and like it. Because at least it's not what we would have got with teabaggers in power. Oh wait...

[Festivito]

17. Down from a BILLION a year. Medicare still have top under one MILLION? 3% (not 20%) overhead? Hmm?

The real problem is that America has roughly 50,000,000 times the word stupid.

[forthemiddle]

71. The reason Medicares overhead is so low is because they contract out.

I don't think Medicare actually administers its claims in any state. Blue Cross Blue Shield, Anthem, WPS, etc are the payors.
The only difference is that they follow the Medicare payment schedule (which is MUCH less) than their standard contracted payments.

If Medicare actually did the work that the insurance companies did, their overhead would be right in line with the rest of the industry.

[Festivito]

72. No, MC does not contract out its administration. That's just funny. And, ...

it's in every state plus elsewhere US recipients end up. And, insurance companies such as BCBS, ... only pay extra after MC pays its set amount.

And, MC doesn't do the doctoring either. It is contracted out to doctors and hospitals and clinics and so on.

Why do you think that every other decent country only spends 3000 to 4000 dollars per year on health care with the United States ridiculously paying OVER TWICE THAT per capita cost from -- pick your favorite country. 8120 per year was the last I recall being revealed.

The difference from 8000 minus 3000 is 5000 dollars per year wasted on armies of clerks hired by doctors and hospitals and clinics FIGHTING insurance companies' armies of clerks. Oh, yeah and insurance companies making way more than 20%.

[forthemiddle]

73. Have you ever worked in a doctors office?

I have, in insurance, and the remittance we get every single day for "Medicare" payments come from WPS, and Medicare.

There is no Medicare office (actually CMS) that writes out the checks, or denies the claims, etc. They come from CMS contracted insurance companies. In Wisconsin it is Wisconsin Physician Services. In other States it is Anthem, or others.

Here is an example. http://www.wpsmedicare.com/index.shtml

If I am incorrect (and I have worked in the field for over 25 years) please link the Medicare offices that we should be sending our bills to.

This is not the Medigap, and supplementals, this is the straight Medicare Part B bills. I can't vouch for the Part A part since I haven't worked that part.

[Festivito]

82. Okay, which brings 3% down to 2% as if that matters comparing to 20% and higher.

A sudden jump from union to non-union contractors does give a drop in cost. That is, it does until the new group decides it can unionize and the attrition rate starts to affect profits. But, that's a whole other topic in need of talk.

My argument is enhanced, not diminished, by Medicare doing its job with only 2% overhead.

If it were so much cheaper, NOTHING stops insurance companies from hiring contractors to write their checks. Chances are they don't hire people to write the policies, but, they could.

They still charge 20% instead of 2% and would if they could charge more than 20% by eliminating ACA.

[habu1968]

19. Shareholders

Another point is that the dividend to share holders has gone up over 30% for each of the last five years. So it's all about profit, not health care. And United Health is supposedly going to drop 800,00 people off there rolls sometime this year according to an article in Fortune Magazine.

[pangaia]

21. Wow, that ANTHEM guy better get off his ass. He's really trailing the pack..

I sure wouldn't want to be in his shoes.

[Cassiopeia]

22. 150 million sucked right out of the system with those salaries alone.

How much care could be dispensed if they made a moderate middle class salary for their labor?

[metalbot]

90. Almost none in the grand scheme of things

If they, and all of their direct reports dropped their salaries to zero, we would still be complaining about our broken system, because the system would still be broken. We spend about $3 trillion on healthcare in this country. The salaries of the people working at the top are nice to get outraged at, but it has zero impact.

[nationalize the fed]

26. k&r excellent

The lowest on the scale makes $50,000 PER DAY- and treats no one, does no physical "work", has "people" to do everything for him etc.

This is OBSCENE. Is there no one that can stop this nightmare?





Some of us that objected to the mandate to buy corporate insurance were called Racists. We're not going to forget it either.

When Max Baucus (D-INS) had single payer advocates arrested at a hearing he wasn't called a racist. But hardly anyone can remember that at all.

[Runningdawg]

30. Average Americans

are one major illness away from bankruptcy and being homeless. While the insurance and drug companies line their pockets.

[MrsKirkley]

31. So many voted against getting rid of health insurance

by not voting for Bernie Sanders. Why?

[awoke_in_2003]

33. Three of these guys

make more in a day than I do in a year, and the fourth is pretty close.

[mwooldri]

39. Compare to NHS England....

Simon Stevens, chief executive of NHS England has a base salary of... about $260,000 a year. No share options in a government health care program. He has been criticized for being a fat cat, along with other NHS managers.... who earn more than the UK Prime Minister.

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/oct/23/simon-stevens-nhs-chief-private-past-uk

[hopemountain]

48. the medical model of care shifted to the business model

during the '90's california put their foot down on this trend - but not hard enough. they required the huge greedy healthcare organizations and hospital networks to establish foundations that served the grassroots - urban & rural - communities to develop leadership and health education programs.

but, after 9-11 - these corporations shifted their giving to the government - and then they all got into bed together.

[beachbum bob]

51. millionaire doctors....$300,000k college cost....and medical system dedicated to money not people

believe...I believe in a single payer program like medicare (my wife and I are on it) and that will be next step as long as we keep trump out and retake congress

[Demsrule86]

52. Of course our system can be improved...

Here is your homework...write a health care plan that can get through the GOP House and Senate...what no such plan? Then I think we should hang on to Obamacare...it has saved many lives.

[AntiBank]

57. Unfortunately I think its going to eventually collapse under its own weight

and with it any legit chance to move to the fundamentally needed single payer system. The public will be hammered with "Look! We tried to have the gubmint step it and look what happened, and now the "commies" want to double down?????" BULLSHIT

I also am terrified that the pre-existing clause will be put back in and millions will die prematurely and needlessly.

[Dont call me Shirley]

54. All these assholes belong in hell. UNIVERSAL HEALTHCARE FOR ALL! Put these jackos out of a job!

[hunter]

58. The insurance companies don't really care about costs.

The larger the streams of money they control, the more they can siphon off for things like CEO pay, corporate jets, hookers, and blow.

Here's what we could do:

1) nationalize the health insurance companies, either explicitly, or by more thorough and effective regulation

2) institute a single payer system

3) implement free education for doctors, nurses, med techs and other medical professionals; pay off the student loans of those professionals working in a single payer environment.

4) pay for pharmaceutical research on safe, effective, and inexpensive medicines and devices which can be sourced from multiple manufacturers. Purchase the patents of safe, effective, and inexpensive medicines and devices developed by individuals and corporations.

We also need to open a national debate on what is, and what isn't, appropriate and effective medical care. Medicine can't fix everything. Too frequently expensive medical intervention makes things worse.

[airplaneman]

63. bingo we have a winner n/t.

[Triana]

65. +1000 n/t

[Silver_Witch]

77. +100

[JEB]

61. Throw the leeches in the garbage.

It's like we refuse to stop bleeding patients, even though it is proven to do more harm than good.

[Scuba]

66. Note how Bernie speaks of universal health care while Hillary speaks of universal health coverage.

There's a mile-wide chasm between those two phrases.

[hobbit709]

68. Yep. Having insurance you can't afford to use is worse than no insurance at all.

[abelenkpe]

78. Exactly nt.

[IronLionZion]

69. It's notable that the highest paid one is avoiding the ACA exchanges

and has opposed the ACA the most.

the big insurance companies have spent years getting out of the commercial health insurance business. This explains why they’re rejecting Obamacare: it turns out the last thing they really wanted was millions of new commercial customers to insure.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-belk/the-obomacare-paradox-the_b_8735042.html

It sounds like they don't want the free giveaways from the exchanges that I keep hearing about. What they really want is more Medicare and Medicaid patients since someone else is the single payer for those patients.

[underthematrix]

79. With a BLUE Congress, Clinton can

move us to the next level on healthcare. There's a lot of anger and ignorance to counter in order to move us to the next level

[Doctor_J]

80. "There will never, ever be single payer healthcare in the US"

- Hillary Clinton, recipient of millions in Pac dollars from PHARMA and Big Insurance

[LibDemAlways]

81. That statement alone is reason enough not to vote for her.

Someone worth 137 million whose husband is a former president, who was a senator and SOS, has the finest health care and health insurance coverage available in this country. When Bill needed heart surgery, he had the most qualified, experienced team of surgeons and the best hospital care imaginable. Hillary is simply out of touch. She has no clue about high deductibles, co-pays, and premiums that make a doctor visit unaffordable for the guy struggling to get by. And she seems not to give a fuck either. Just more "Let them eat cake" thinking.

[athena]

86. Please provide a reference for that quote.

When I Google it, all I find is other posts by you on DU.

[Doctor_J]

88. Sorry. I misquoted

Single payer will never, ever happen

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/hillary-clinton-single-payer-health-care-will-never-ever-happen/

So I guess you

A) have been asleep since January, and
B) didn't Google "Hillary single payer"

[athena]

95. Just as I thought.

She didn't actually say, "single payer will never, ever happen."

Taking comments out of context used to be a right-wing tactic. It's sad to see it used by the Left.

What Hillary really said was, "People who have health emergencies can't wait for us to have a theoretical debate about some better idea that will never, ever come to pass." She did not say that single payer will never, ever, happen. If you think that the "idea" she is referring to is single-payer health care, then you have to admit that she thinks it is a "better idea." She may, of course, have been referring to Bernie's specific health-care plan, which probably "will never, ever come to pass."

As someone who is firmly in favor of single-payer health care, I agree with Hillary. As much as I would love single-payer health care, it is extremely unlikely that this Congress would pass anything approaching single-payer health care. It would be foolish to throw away precious political capital trying to push a bill that is extremely unlikely to make it through Congress. If we want single-payer health care, we need to advocate for it at every opportunity. We have to write to our representatives, and talk to everyone we know about how it's a much better idea. Simply attacking and disparaging a liberal who points out the current political reality is not going to achieve single payer health care or anything like it.

Note that Hillary is in favor of a public option, which is the first realistic step toward single-payer health care in the current political climate.
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/11/us/politics/hillary-clinton-health-care-public-option.html

[Doctor_J]

99. Single payer healthcare will never, ever happen.

So it's your reading comprehension that's weak. Her exact quote is my subject line. Never, ever. And in the linked article, she fails to admit that she takes millions in lobbying money from insurance and PHARMA lobbies, the main opponents of affordable healthcare. She's corrupt, athena. That's why so many dislike her and don't trust her. She has no intention of making our train wreck of a healthcare system any better - just more profitable for her donors.

[Gene Debs]

83. In any other country these people would have been dragged into the street by their hair by now.

[modestybl]

84. HRC is dead-set against Medicare-for-all...

... that and the Iraq War vote were already enough to make me loathe to ever vote for her. Morally repulsive choice..

[Mosby]

87. all insurance companies should be co-ops

Or something along those lines.

And when I say all, I mean auto, homeowners, life, health etc.

[RB TexLa]

89. A meme from physicians advocating moving to the program they are most able to steal from

Big surprise.