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louis c

(8,652 posts)
Sun Jun 5, 2016, 08:11 AM Jun 2016

My most recent "discussion" with a Trump supporter

Let me start off by letting you know that my cousin, who happens to be my dearest and closest friend, is a Trump supporter. On one occasion, I told him that when I talk to him about the subject of Trump, it's like going to my Aunt's house and seeing her watch a televangelist on TV and she's writing out a $1,000 check because she's convinced this charlatan can cure her arthritis over the airwaves and make her life better. I feel it's my obligation to talk her out of sending that check and try to inform her that this is a scam.

A couple of days ago, I asked him what it was about Trump that he finds so attractive. He answered, "he's not politician. I hate politicians." I replied, "Don't you hear what he says. His bigotry. His contradictions on issues?" He says, "No, I don't watch the media or read the papers. All the media does is lie. I don't believe a word they say."

Here's my response, "You can't have a Democracy without politicians. That's just a fact. You can't have freedom without a free press, that's a fact. If you want to live in a country without a Democracy and without a free press, America may not be the country for you. North Korea has no politicians and no free press. Rather than try to change our country to be like North Korea, perhaps it would be easier for you just to move there."

We abruptly changed the subject and began talking about the Red Sox lack of pitching.

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My most recent "discussion" with a Trump supporter (Original Post) louis c Jun 2016 OP
Technically, since Trump is running for office, he's now a politician. Vinca Jun 2016 #1
My cousin is pretty well off louis c Jun 2016 #9
Great story! PJMcK Jun 2016 #30
Look up some articles on how Trump stiffed his contractors... JHB Jun 2016 #35
He wouldn't care louis c Jun 2016 #38
Plumbers who work for themselves still have to deal with people who... JHB Jun 2016 #39
Politics is like religion. bdwker Jun 2016 #2
I have found that the more you kairos12 Jun 2016 #21
That is certainly on display in GD-P Generic Brad Jun 2016 #36
speaking from experience...nearly impossible to converse with conservatives except beachbum bob Jun 2016 #3
It is a regressive brain function likely through genetics linked with conditioning. Their RKP5637 Jun 2016 #5
I hate to say this but studies have proved there is an difference betwen the thought processes beachbum bob Jun 2016 #7
As one of my friends once said, there are literally two types of people in the world. n/t RKP5637 Jun 2016 #10
And right after you pulled out that piece of paper, your friend would say, "But you have valerief Jun 2016 #11
The difference is azureblue Jun 2016 #14
YEP Cosmocat Jun 2016 #6
Can't do weather. Climate change is fake you know. kairos12 Jun 2016 #22
repukes do not know the difference between weather and climate Skittles Jun 2016 #46
Always makes me laugh when Trump says, or a supporter, he's not a politician. RKP5637 Jun 2016 #4
You forgot this definition: malthaussen Jun 2016 #24
Just a little clarification, if I may.... BlancheSplanchnik Jun 2016 #29
Excellent! Yes, it definitely does!!! RKP5637 Jun 2016 #34
Move on Jnclr89 Jun 2016 #8
I guess I would work on points of agreement n2doc Jun 2016 #12
Trump is azureblue Jun 2016 #16
Anyone who says "All the media does is lie" is flat-out wrong. SheilaT Jun 2016 #13
What they are doing azureblue Jun 2016 #18
I listen to Amy Goodman every morning, SheilaT Jun 2016 #33
the media certainly has an agenda....after all it exist to make money beachbum bob Jun 2016 #19
Agreed PJMcK Jun 2016 #32
Sounds like what we hear around here these days a lot with... Blue_Adept Jun 2016 #15
That's a VERY good way of putting it. BootinUp Jun 2016 #17
I wonder . . . gratuitous Jun 2016 #20
The Red Sox lack of pitching is always a safe subject malthaussen Jun 2016 #23
Trump has turned into the biggest bozo of them all mdbl Jun 2016 #25
The "free" press is now owned by a meager handful of corporations pengu Jun 2016 #26
Factual, mostly non-media, information about Trump's treatment of his employees jopacaco Jun 2016 #27
The free press is six mega corporations abelenkpe Jun 2016 #28
The US seems to have neither free politicians nor a free press. Scuba Jun 2016 #31
That's a very cynical view louis c Jun 2016 #40
No, what's unfathomable to me is that we turned the Democratic Party over to conservatives. Scuba Jun 2016 #43
We just setteld a Verizon strike in the workers' favor louis c Jun 2016 #47
Speaking of voting rights, in 2009 Dems had a chance to protect our voting rights and elections ... Scuba Jun 2016 #48
I turned the wife of a frumpter to hrc lindysalsagal Jun 2016 #37
Sometimes, changing the subject Different Drummer Jun 2016 #41
I would focus on the "hate", myself bhikkhu Jun 2016 #42
"Red Sox lack of pitching. " Takket Jun 2016 #44
I completely understand why people are fed up with politicians Skittles Jun 2016 #45

Vinca

(50,168 posts)
1. Technically, since Trump is running for office, he's now a politician.
Sun Jun 5, 2016, 08:17 AM
Jun 2016

A dim bulb of a politician, but on the level of a Louie Gohmert in a bad mood or a Steve King only crazier. I'm curious. What does your cousin think Trump is going to do for him? I swear some of his supporters think they're going to automatically become rich if Trump is elected.

 

louis c

(8,652 posts)
9. My cousin is pretty well off
Sun Jun 5, 2016, 08:48 AM
Jun 2016

He is a plumber and bought distressed houses that needed work. He would do most of the remodeling himself and sub out the work he couldn't do. He would buy the house cash, and turn it over, usually making about $100,000. This whole process took about a year. He did this every year for about 20 years. He stopped about 5 years ago. He and his wife own two houses, outright. He's 68 years old, so now he's mostly retired. Works about 6 months in Boston, just doing rentals on commission, and spends the 6 Winter months in Southern Florida. He's got a pretty good life, and so do I. He's more of a cynic, easily convinced of conspiracies. I'm a status quo guy. I think this country is great already, but we need to stay on guard to keep it great. I understand the similarities and the differences in the two major parties. I read and communicate at every level. Yesterday, I was a delegate to the Mass. Dem. Convention and heard Liz Warren, in person. I get involved in elections, every year and at various levels. I love Democracy, and I think I understand it. He, on the other hand, has visceral responses to events. That's where our political differences come in.

To his credit, and why he's my best friend, I needed to get a 2 family house in a hurry to keep my Mother out of a nursing home 15 years ago. I had to sell my 1 bedroom condo in order to do it. He found exactly what I was looking for, in our old neighborhood. He found a distressed house, fixed it up and sold me the house, without taking a profit, and my Mom is still with me today. I got married about two years after I got the house and everything that happened to me during that span was a positive life-changer for me. He's a great guy, he has a great business mind, he was a hard worker, but has a very bad political understanding.

PJMcK

(21,916 posts)
30. Great story!
Sun Jun 5, 2016, 10:31 AM
Jun 2016

Your relationship with your cousin sounds terrific and I'm happy for you that your mother is still with you.

I agree with you that the United States is already a great nation.

JHB

(37,128 posts)
35. Look up some articles on how Trump stiffed his contractors...
Sun Jun 5, 2016, 12:47 PM
Jun 2016

Don has a history of shorting contractors (if they're small fry he won't need to deal with again). No matter what how much was agreed upon in the contract, once the work was done and Donald had what he wanted, payment stopped. They had to sue, and Trump's lawyers could drag it out for years.

If he's a plumber, it's almost certain he's encountered that type before.

 

louis c

(8,652 posts)
38. He wouldn't care
Sun Jun 5, 2016, 04:43 PM
Jun 2016

he always worked for himself. Solo. And he hired friends in other trades and always paid on time.

He wasn't a union plumber and worked out of the "hall".

JHB

(37,128 posts)
39. Plumbers who work for themselves still have to deal with people who...
Sun Jun 5, 2016, 04:52 PM
Jun 2016

...try to short them on a bill.

 

bdwker

(435 posts)
2. Politics is like religion.
Sun Jun 5, 2016, 08:19 AM
Jun 2016

You're never going to change anyone's mind.

The more you try to change their mind, the more they dig in their beliefs.

 

beachbum bob

(10,437 posts)
3. speaking from experience...nearly impossible to converse with conservatives except
Sun Jun 5, 2016, 08:22 AM
Jun 2016

on weather issues

they embrace their ignorance and rejoice in being in the dark. If they don't hear it on foxnews or rush limbaugh.....its not true

RKP5637

(67,031 posts)
5. It is a regressive brain function likely through genetics linked with conditioning. Their
Sun Jun 5, 2016, 08:32 AM
Jun 2016

rationale is based through a filter of fear, mistrust and ultimate fear of change. It's been documented in brain studies. Purely from their filtered response patterns, arguing with them, trying to change them is a waste of time. Fox News, for example, and other inane sources know this and milk them for profit while feeding them distortions. Joseph Goebbels knew this well and used it to full advantage in Germany. Of course then, it had not been backed up via scientific inquiry.


 

beachbum bob

(10,437 posts)
7. I hate to say this but studies have proved there is an difference betwen the thought processes
Sun Jun 5, 2016, 08:40 AM
Jun 2016

of liberals and conservatives. We see it every day.....AND the overridiing urge for a conservative to always run contrary to a liberal on issues as a matter of just being contrary.

I have had my own test with this with friends where I purposely take a position and my friend would automatically take the otherside even when I may be taking an more conservative one than he...

I use to write down on a piece of paper the position he would take hours before the discussion and then pull it out my pocket....

valerief

(53,235 posts)
11. And right after you pulled out that piece of paper, your friend would say, "But you have
Sun Jun 5, 2016, 09:07 AM
Jun 2016

another piece of paper saying the opposite in another pocket!"

azureblue

(2,131 posts)
14. The difference is
Sun Jun 5, 2016, 09:35 AM
Jun 2016

the conservative "sheep", that is the ones that believe that crap, are reactionaries. They don't think, they react to negative, emotionally based stimuli, like fear and hate. And because they can only react that way, you can't convince them of anything, even if the facts are staring them right in the face. they will always have some sort of reason to discount reality.

I got some of them in my family, and what they believe and why they believe it, makes me wonder if a screw came loose in their heads. I mean, they love Trump, and they hang on his every word. Then they forget what he said yesterday. And they refuse to think for themselves. Just like sheep.

Cosmocat

(14,543 posts)
6. YEP
Sun Jun 5, 2016, 08:34 AM
Jun 2016

Just have to let it go until such time that something might occur effects their lives in a way that their synapses develop a connection with reality ...

RKP5637

(67,031 posts)
4. Always makes me laugh when Trump says, or a supporter, he's not a politician.
Sun Jun 5, 2016, 08:23 AM
Jun 2016

Trump is a politician if ever ... surely a number of definitions fit Trump quite accurately.

Per dictionary.com

Politician

noun
1. a person who is active in party politics.
2. a seeker or holder of public office, who is more concerned about winning favor or retaining power than about maintaining principles.
3. a person who holds a political office.
4. a person skilled in political government or administration; statesman or stateswoman.
5. an expert in politics or political government.
6. a person who seeks to gain power or advancement within an organization in ways that are generally disapproved.

BlancheSplanchnik

(20,219 posts)
29. Just a little clarification, if I may....
Sun Jun 5, 2016, 10:30 AM
Jun 2016

Many small bloodsucking, parasitic and disease carrying insects.



(Because there are ones that are helpful, too ...ladybugs, earthworms, butterflies for example.)

n2doc

(47,953 posts)
12. I guess I would work on points of agreement
Sun Jun 5, 2016, 09:07 AM
Jun 2016

I think your analogy to a scammer-preacher is exactly right. I actually agree with your cuz that the press are a bunch of liars. There is always some truth in there but so much spinning that it is hard to find. Maybe find some areas of agreement and work from there.

Trump may not be a 'politician' but he is running a very good political campaign, otherwise he would not be one vote from the Presidency.

The biggest thing to me to work on Trump is to point out that he doesn't have any way to make these promises come true. He never does anything but say things will be huge and great. Anybody can make promises. He has a knack for being able to avoid actually saying how he would fulfill them. His promises are so unrealistic that there is no way he can make them happen. And of course he changes positions on a daily basis. So who the hell knows what he would actually do?

Probably a lost cause though. He sounds like he is motivated by dreams not reality.

azureblue

(2,131 posts)
16. Trump is
Sun Jun 5, 2016, 09:37 AM
Jun 2016

a potent combination of P.T. Barnum, Elmer Gantry, a snake oil salesman, and Benito Mussolini. And the rubes eat it up.

 

SheilaT

(23,156 posts)
13. Anyone who says "All the media does is lie" is flat-out wrong.
Sun Jun 5, 2016, 09:19 AM
Jun 2016

And if you believe that, where in the world can you get your information from? How does your cousin even know that Trump is running for office if he doesn't watch the media or read the papers? Psychic impressions from the dead?

My point is that your cousin does read or watch something, probably Fox News, but somehow doesn't think that's part of the media.

Another question to those who say all the media does is lie: How do you determine what is actually true or accurate?

Even here on DU there are those who believe that. No wonder so many are convinced that global warming/climate change is a hoax. Or that vaccines cause autism. Or that no planes crashed on September 11, 2001, just missiles. Or drone airplanes. Or that no aircraft wreckage was found that day.

It's sad and depressing how many people buy into sheer nonsense.

azureblue

(2,131 posts)
18. What they are doing
Sun Jun 5, 2016, 09:45 AM
Jun 2016

is the equivalent of sticking their fingers in their ears and shouting "I can't Hear You!". They do not want input from anywhere and "The media lies" is their excuse for not taking the time to actually dig into a subject and discover the facts that make up the story.

I got that one from a relative, so I asked him, "did you look into the story so you could learn what happened, directly, without having the story told through "the media"? He stared at me like he had never considered that he could learn something on his own, without being told. I asked him if he bothered to read news sources outside of America like the BBC, for a different viewpoint than American media, and he said he never thought of that. The fact that he could go all the way back the the root of the story, never crossed his mind. A - effin - mazing...

 

SheilaT

(23,156 posts)
33. I listen to Amy Goodman every morning,
Sun Jun 5, 2016, 11:21 AM
Jun 2016

as well as some BBC news. I also read my local newspaper. There's also DU and other on-line sources.

I find that I'm pretty well informed about most things, and because I almost never watch news on TV (I don't even own a television) I also don't get sucked into nonstop coverage of so many non stories.

This is actually the fourth time in my adult life I've gone without TV for an extended period of time, and I sincerely doubt I will ever have one again. I think what I like best is no commercials. And while I'm not generally up on the most current shows, I can watch almost anything and everything over the internet, or by getting DVDs from Netflix or the library.

Too many people have just taken up passively absorbing what they see or hear, and never think very hard or ask questions about stuff. I wish more people would.

 

beachbum bob

(10,437 posts)
19. the media certainly has an agenda....after all it exist to make money
Sun Jun 5, 2016, 09:47 AM
Jun 2016

foxnews is easily figure out their agenda

the other ones a little tougher....in the end they will report and say what it takes to keep viewership and readership... May not always be accurate but few report out right lies

PJMcK

(21,916 posts)
32. Agreed
Sun Jun 5, 2016, 10:39 AM
Jun 2016

Great points about the news media, SheilaT.

When someone says that all media lies, I think, "all blanket statements are wrong." (See what I did there?!)

Actually, I like your question: "How do you determine what is actually true or accurate?" The answer is you get your news from different sources and reality sifts out of the different views. This is why I enjoy reading the works of the intelligent conservative writers. They won't convert me but it gives me perspective.

Blue_Adept

(6,384 posts)
15. Sounds like what we hear around here these days a lot with...
Sun Jun 5, 2016, 09:36 AM
Jun 2016

"No, I don't watch the media or read the papers. All the media does is lie. I don't believe a word they say."

BootinUp

(46,924 posts)
17. That's a VERY good way of putting it.
Sun Jun 5, 2016, 09:38 AM
Jun 2016

Not surprised, I often find your posts to be of a high caliber.

gratuitous

(82,849 posts)
20. I wonder . . .
Sun Jun 5, 2016, 09:53 AM
Jun 2016

Would your cousin hire someone to work on a house he was rehabbing who wasn't a skilled electrician? We do indeed need experienced politicians in our political offices, just like we need an electrician to do the wiring in a house, not some schmo who doesn't know what he's doing.

malthaussen

(17,065 posts)
23. The Red Sox lack of pitching is always a safe subject
Sun Jun 5, 2016, 10:04 AM
Jun 2016

I'd be more interested to know why it is he prefers a con man to a politician, or, to put it another way, this particular con man over another con man, especially as he self-admittedly pays no attention to either. It is not, shall we say, an informed preference.

-- Mal

mdbl

(4,972 posts)
25. Trump has turned into the biggest bozo of them all
Sun Jun 5, 2016, 10:11 AM
Jun 2016

Those that vote for him can't discern what would be good for elected office, proven by the other bozo's that were in the running. What do they do? The pick the biggest bozo of them all.

pengu

(462 posts)
26. The "free" press is now owned by a meager handful of corporations
Sun Jun 5, 2016, 10:14 AM
Jun 2016

The coverage is badly slanted towards ownership. Something is going to have to give eventually. This country can't keep going like this. No, a racist fascist Trump is not the answer. Still, people know things are very, very wrong.

jopacaco

(133 posts)
27. Factual, mostly non-media, information about Trump's treatment of his employees
Sun Jun 5, 2016, 10:23 AM
Jun 2016

One of my sons has worked in a Trump resort for 7 years. He has never received a pay raise in that time. He gets no benefits like sick days, overtime, or any health insurance. As an American citizen he is a minority worker - I have seen this issue reported a few times but it gets no traction.(http://money.cnn.com/2016/03/18/news/economy/trump-maralago/)
My son would not ever consider voting for him. If people actually looked at Trump's own record maybe they would realize what a conman he is.
My brother tends to the wingnut part of the political spectrum. One day when he was spouting some foolish thing, I commented that Fox News might not be the place to get his information. He told me that he doesn't get his news from Fox, he gets it all from Facebook! There is no help for this level of stupidity.

abelenkpe

(9,933 posts)
28. The free press is six mega corporations
Sun Jun 5, 2016, 10:30 AM
Jun 2016

That report a narrow pov that benefits them. He should be skeptical of the biased entertainment media labels news. Media and mostly right wing politicians have sold the idea that government doesn't work and media is untrustworthy for decades. Is it surprising that Trump supporters want to break the government or shake things up by supporting one they see as an outsider? Trump is seen as anti establishment. This is a very dangerous situation.

 

Scuba

(53,475 posts)
31. The US seems to have neither free politicians nor a free press.
Sun Jun 5, 2016, 10:35 AM
Jun 2016

Our politicians are owned by their donors. So is the press. This is not a coincidence.

 

louis c

(8,652 posts)
40. That's a very cynical view
Sun Jun 5, 2016, 04:59 PM
Jun 2016

Voters make the ultimate decision on elections.

If you can't fight through the "haze" and work to educate yourself on politics, the fault lies in yourself.

The voters may not always agree with your position, but it's free. I notice that you're a Bernie supporter. You do know that he wasn't a Democrat until this primary season? Is it unfathomable to you that life long Democrats are skeptical about turning the party over to him?

He's an Independent. More power to him. It's not the press or the politicians that are costing Bernie the nomination. It's that a lot of us think loyalty counts for something.

 

Scuba

(53,475 posts)
43. No, what's unfathomable to me is that we turned the Democratic Party over to conservatives.
Sun Jun 5, 2016, 08:36 PM
Jun 2016

The party I've supported for five decades abandoned the principles that made us great in exchange for neo-con dollars and policies.

Bernie represents the traditional policies of the party better than our party "leaders."

 

louis c

(8,652 posts)
47. We just setteld a Verizon strike in the workers' favor
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 07:18 AM
Jun 2016

because a Democratic President sent his Labor Secretary to defend the workers.

Citizens United was decided by 5 Republican appointees to the Supreme Court voting in favor, and 4 Democratic appointees voting against.

The unions dodged a bullet with Scalia's death, as the Supreme court voted stickily on party lines that protected, for the moment, making this a "Right to Work" country in the public sector.

Right to work ahs been implemented in a state only when the Republicans control all three bodies in a state, the house, the Senate and the Governorship (or they can override the Governor's veto, if he or she is a Democrat.

The same goes for voting rights and civil rights

If you can't see the difference for working people between the parties, you are intentionally blind on the subject.

Bernie may have some good positions on issues, but you guys have lost the nomination because 3 million more voters voted for Hillary, she has about 275 more pledged delegates and Bernie has no structural loyalty in a party he just joined a year ago.

This election will be about incremental change in our favor, or severe, hateful, irreparable change against us. The next President will be appointing a Supreme Court that will set the agenda for the next 30 to 40 years. there is no second bite of the apple.

Don't make the same mistake that the Ralph Nader supporters did in 2000. There is a big difference in the political parties.

 

Scuba

(53,475 posts)
48. Speaking of voting rights, in 2009 Dems had a chance to protect our voting rights and elections ...
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 07:22 AM
Jun 2016

They passed.

Kinda like Florida 2000 never happened.

Kinda like Ohio 2004 never happened.


A more cynical observer might conclude that the Democratic Party leadership doesn't give a damn about voting rights or fair elections.


I do see a difference between the two parties ...

"If the Democratic Party would fight as hard for the Working Class as the Republican Party fights for the Ruling Class, the Republicans would be a powerless minority party within a few election cycles.

The Democratic Party knows this, the Republican Party knows this, the Ruling Class knows this- and they've been astonishingly successful at making sure the Working Class never learns this." ~ Anonymous

lindysalsagal

(20,440 posts)
37. I turned the wife of a frumpter to hrc
Sun Jun 5, 2016, 01:47 PM
Jun 2016

We didn't really dis cuss the candidates, but my statement that frump would not fix our broken government, but only fix the economy for himself and his friends resonated with her.

When I got up to leave, out of earshot of her husband, she earnestly said that my political statements were very compelling. I think she's hearing Frump's insults, and my statement that the supreme Court is most important really brought her over.

bhikkhu

(10,708 posts)
42. I would focus on the "hate", myself
Sun Jun 5, 2016, 05:02 PM
Jun 2016

Why does he feel hatred for politicians? Which politicians? What have they done? In many cases, feeling hatred for people one doesn't know is pathological and has underlying causes the person who hates isn't aware of.

Culturally we are taught to trust our feelings, rather than our reasoning minds. "Trust your gut", "follow your heart", etc. This isn't a human universal, as other cultures emphasize reason and understanding, and place emotions (especially negative emotions) lower on the value list, as the noise or random conditions of a semi-developed physical brain.

Problems arise in that our "gut" is easily manipulated - looking at how fascism and militarism work.

Takket

(21,424 posts)
44. "Red Sox lack of pitching. "
Sun Jun 5, 2016, 08:51 PM
Jun 2016

Ug, can't we just talk about Trump? He is much less of a disaster than Boston's pitching.

Skittles

(152,964 posts)
45. I completely understand why people are fed up with politicians
Sun Jun 5, 2016, 08:58 PM
Jun 2016

what I cannot understand is how they can think someone like Trump is an ANSWER

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