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KamaAina

(78,249 posts)
Tue Jun 7, 2016, 07:03 PM Jun 2016

Men See Themselves In Brock Turner—That’s Why They Don’t Condemn Him

http://www.theestablishment.co/2016/06/07/men-see-themselves-in-brock-turner-thats-why-they-dont-condemn-him/

I’ve been watching the social media fallout surrounding the trial of Brock Turner, the swimming champion from Stanford who received a six-month sentence for sexually assaulting an unconscious woman in January of 2015. As with any other case that deals with violence against women, the reactions have been equal parts depressing and encouraging. Depressing because even in 2016 the narrative persists that young white men convicted of rape are being unfairly denied their potential bright futures. Encouraging because every time this happens, it feels like we get a little closer to exposing the framework of rape minimization and acceptance that supports incidents like these. This case has made it clearer than ever that we as a society condone rape by privileging men’s feelings over victims’ trauma—and more people than ever have objected.

Most of the discussion has centered around two letters. The first is the impact statement written by the victim herself, which she read out loud in court on June 2 and which was subsequently published by Buzzfeed on June 3. The other is letter written by Turner’s father asking for leniency in his sentencing; Stanford law professor Michele Dauber brought this one to public notice when she tweeted a portion of it. The former letter is as gutting as the latter is tone-deaf. The woman that Turner attacked speaks of what it felt like to wake up in the hospital with pine needles and debris inside her vagina. Meanwhile, Turner’s father laments that his son no longer enjoys pretzels, and argues he has been forced to pay too high a price for “20 minutes of action.”

To read Turner’s father’s letter is to feel an immediate rush of pure fury. It’s tempting to just go full snark on it, because there is lot here to snark here: from Turner Senior’s lyrical description of Brock’s lost love for steak to his obstinate refusal to actually name his son’s crime, the letter reads like a bad parody of how someone might talk about a rapist. It’s much harder to read the letter earnestly; it feels almost impossible to comprehend that this man truly believes his son is the one deserving of pity. It’s more comfortable to mock—but we can’t just mock. We have to look at—really look at, unsparingly and in detail—all the ways in which Turner’s father’s letter exemplifies how rape culture works.

Rape culture is the idea that sexual assault does not happen in a vacuum, but rather occurs because we are socialized in a way that normalizes and even celebrates sexual victimization of women. In my experience, most men have a twofold reaction to that definition: first they’ll ask how it can be true that rape is normalized if rape is also understood to be one of the worst crimes a person can commit, and second they’ll swear that they, personally, would never. When they say these things they will absolutely believe that they’re speaking the truth. And then a case like Brock Turner’s will come along and present some very uncomfortable challenges to those ideas.


Pretzels? Maybe he chokes on them, like his presumed idol Dumbya.
58 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Men See Themselves In Brock Turner—That’s Why They Don’t Condemn Him (Original Post) KamaAina Jun 2016 OP
Thread title FAIL. dchill Jun 2016 #1
Some men, present company included, do condemn him. KamaAina Jun 2016 #4
there are probably very few parents hfojvt Jun 2016 #12
I don't think not wanting his son to go to jail makes him a horrible person. Dorian Gray Jun 2016 #21
Yes - what Dan A. Turner wrote makes him a horrible person. bloom Jun 2016 #27
THEY DON'T SEE IT AS RAPE. lapislzi Jun 2016 #43
+100. nt raccoon Jun 2016 #52
The dad, while unsensitive, crass, and misguided, is at least understandable Blue_Tires Jun 2016 #45
Every man I've met, who was familiar with the case, condemned him. Xithras Jun 2016 #49
I'm a woman and I agree with you. Quantess Jun 2016 #18
Your historical and consistent oppression by the entrenched matriarchy is noted and pitied. LanternWaste Jun 2016 #36
I'm a guy and I think Turner got off light. Initech Jun 2016 #2
The author is painting 'men' with a pretty broad brush there... PatrickforO Jun 2016 #3
Totally Dorian Gray Jun 2016 #22
Brock also made a clueless statement bloom Jun 2016 #28
People say stupid stuff online all the time... Dorian Gray Jun 2016 #53
This message was self-deleted by its author Mosby Jun 2016 #5
Horseshit. Maybe the judge was a rapist. I'm a man and think he got off too light. NightWatcher Jun 2016 #6
Any man that sees himself in a male teen that raped an unconscious female needs therapy. Rex Jun 2016 #7
Alas, rape culture is alive and well throughout the world FrodosPet Jun 2016 #8
Except Turner, his idiot dad and the asshat judge have all been widely condemned mythology Jun 2016 #9
"10% of men had raped"?! Do you have a link, because that sounds like complete bull. Kentonio Jun 2016 #23
Well, I Can Assure You I'm In The Other 90 ProfessorGAC Jun 2016 #24
Indeed. Kentonio Jun 2016 #34
It sounds shockingly high, and it may mean 10% of adult men, but 30% of women have been victims Bucky Jun 2016 #33
30% of women have not been victims of rape, where are you getting this figure from?! Kentonio Jun 2016 #35
You're right. I was thinking about the number of college women raped Bucky Jun 2016 #39
Horrible, horrible numbers. Kentonio Jun 2016 #42
I saw a stat where half of male college athletes had committed sexual assault. bloom Jun 2016 #30
Of course the Rethugs don't condemn him.... harrose Jun 2016 #10
This message was self-deleted by its author mdbl Jun 2016 #20
Really because I don't see myself at all in Brock Turner. dilby Jun 2016 #11
I condemn the shit out that litte bastard. nt TeamPooka Jun 2016 #13
The childhood friend she referenced was a woman ProudToBeBlueInRhody Jun 2016 #14
She didn't assume melman Jun 2016 #15
I honestly don't know ProudToBeBlueInRhody Jun 2016 #16
I call BS Skittles Jun 2016 #17
I was, sounds terrible, but i wanted to punch the punk in the face. Nt Logical Jun 2016 #31
Yeah, but that kind of article won't generate the clicks. Dr. Strange Jun 2016 #56
When I saw Turner Sr's response mdbl Jun 2016 #19
Bullshit. (n/t) Iggo Jun 2016 #25
So men see themselves as entitled rapists? Matt_in_STL Jun 2016 #26
i do not agree in this broad based statement. Nt Logical Jun 2016 #29
I don't think most men would rape someone like that. Quantess Jun 2016 #32
This message was self-deleted by its author bloom Jun 2016 #37
Surely no men here on DU have refused to condemn that rapist? Nye Bevan Jun 2016 #38
This is a men's bashing thread & I will not participate. GOLGO 13 Jun 2016 #40
Did the two men who stopped the assault and restrained the rapist ... 11 Bravo Jun 2016 #41
This man fucking condemns him! NT Adrahil Jun 2016 #44
I don't, and he's a big bag of precious, priveleged shit, along with Daddy and the judge hatrack Jun 2016 #46
This OP is a load of man-bashing crap. NaturalHigh Jun 2016 #47
Try reading the whole article. That's not what it says at all. lapislzi Jun 2016 #50
As I'm not particularly interested in your "feelings" about men. NaturalHigh Jun 2016 #51
Okay, okay, she should have said "some men". KamaAina Jun 2016 #48
It's a reasonable assumption considering the title... NaturalHigh Jun 2016 #54
The kid should have gotten a much more severe sentence, and the judge should lose his job. Paladin Jun 2016 #55
as a man, I wish I would have caught him onethatcares Jun 2016 #57
Out of all the fantasies I ever harbored I can honestly say none included sex with someone... DemocratSinceBirth Jun 2016 #58
 

KamaAina

(78,249 posts)
4. Some men, present company included, do condemn him.
Tue Jun 7, 2016, 07:11 PM
Jun 2016

But his "20 minutes of action" dad, Judge Aaron "Six-Month" Persky, and far too many others do not.

hfojvt

(37,573 posts)
12. there are probably very few parents
Wed Jun 8, 2016, 03:03 AM
Jun 2016

who want to see their child go to prison for twenty years, or even ten. You think that makes him a horrible person?

Why is it though when SOME men do the wrong thing they are described as "men" and yet when some men do the right thing it is necessary to note "this is only some men"?

Dorian Gray

(13,479 posts)
21. I don't think not wanting his son to go to jail makes him a horrible person.
Wed Jun 8, 2016, 06:28 AM
Jun 2016

I think referring to Brock's assault on that woman that night as "20 minutes of action" makes him a horrible person. Stating that Brock should tour college campuses to educate about underage drinking and "sexual promiscuity" rather than face consequences for his actions makes him a terrible dad.

bloom

(11,635 posts)
27. Yes - what Dan A. Turner wrote makes him a horrible person.
Wed Jun 8, 2016, 08:50 AM
Jun 2016

Absolutely. What he wrote is despicable.

The father's letter is epitome of horrible advocacy. "20 minutes of action" - IOW sexual assault / rape.

How stupid can somebody be?

lapislzi

(5,762 posts)
43. THEY DON'T SEE IT AS RAPE.
Wed Jun 8, 2016, 10:46 AM
Jun 2016

Sorry for the shouty caps. These men do not view their actions as rape. Rape is something that happens when a BHS (bushy-haired-stranger) jumps out of the bushes and forces a person to have intercourse at gun or knifepoint. That's the "legitimate rape" they like to cite.

When college kids get drunk at a party and a boy sticks things inside an unconscious girl, that's just bad judgment on everyone's part. Oops. When a date goes wrong and one person won't stop when the other person says stop, that's a misunderstanding.

Putting things inside girls is something well-off college men are permitted to do at virtually any time.

That is rape culture in as few, nasty words as I can reduce it to.

The father can't call it rape because that word means something very specific to him, and what his son did doesn't fit that narrow definition.

Note: I'm using mostly male-on-female pronouns because this is how it goes down most of the time. Boys rape boys, girls rape girls, girls rape boys. But that's a lot less common.

Blue_Tires

(55,445 posts)
45. The dad, while unsensitive, crass, and misguided, is at least understandable
Wed Jun 8, 2016, 11:37 AM
Jun 2016

There are countless cases of serial rapists, murders, mass shooters, child abusers, animal abusers, even folks on death row whose parents will tell the judge/media "Have mercy on him, he's a good kid, he didn't mean nothin' by it!" -- So that's nothing new, sadly...


BUT while "understandable", I still wholly condemn him, the son and the judge in this farce...

Xithras

(16,191 posts)
49. Every man I've met, who was familiar with the case, condemned him.
Wed Jun 8, 2016, 12:23 PM
Jun 2016

Even my ultra-right, Trump supporting brother in law condemned him. Actually, he went off on a bit of a tirade about how "p***ified" liberal judges were, and that we need to go back to "hanging rapist bastards like him".

There are a million trolls on the Internet, but I have yet to meet one actual person who supports the rapist.

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
36. Your historical and consistent oppression by the entrenched matriarchy is noted and pitied.
Wed Jun 8, 2016, 09:13 AM
Jun 2016

Your historical and consistent oppression by the entrenched matriarchy is noted and pitied. Either that, or your epidural layer is likely much less than one milometer in thickness, and additional layers of stratum corneum may be needed for your long term viability in our culture.

Initech

(100,013 posts)
2. I'm a guy and I think Turner got off light.
Tue Jun 7, 2016, 07:10 PM
Jun 2016

And how is it that fundies accuse innocent trans people of rape, and an actual rapist practically gets off the hook because of cronyism?

PatrickforO

(14,556 posts)
3. The author is painting 'men' with a pretty broad brush there...
Tue Jun 7, 2016, 07:10 PM
Jun 2016

Because I read Brock's father's letter and was disgusted and read the victim's letter and wept. As a father of three daughters and grandfather of two beautiful little girls I DON'T FEEL THAT WAY AT ALL.

Dorian Gray

(13,479 posts)
22. Totally
Wed Jun 8, 2016, 06:29 AM
Jun 2016

The dad and the judge are the only two men I've heard make excuses for Brock. Most of the men in my life are horrified about this.

bloom

(11,635 posts)
28. Brock also made a clueless statement
Wed Jun 8, 2016, 08:54 AM
Jun 2016

Where he did not accept the fact that there was a problem other than drinking and 'promiscuity'

You can find other stupid statements by people online if you look for them.

Response to KamaAina (Original post)

NightWatcher

(39,343 posts)
6. Horseshit. Maybe the judge was a rapist. I'm a man and think he got off too light.
Tue Jun 7, 2016, 07:14 PM
Jun 2016

Hell, I think the judge should do 6 months after he is disbarred and removed from the bench. I think the rapist should do a lot more time.

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
7. Any man that sees himself in a male teen that raped an unconscious female needs therapy.
Tue Jun 7, 2016, 07:29 PM
Jun 2016

However I do not doubt some men are just like Brock and his father, they don't just appear out of a vacuum.

FrodosPet

(5,169 posts)
8. Alas, rape culture is alive and well throughout the world
Tue Jun 7, 2016, 08:58 PM
Jun 2016

Young men need to be taught at the earliest age that it is unacceptable and inexcusable.

That does not mean every man, or even most men, support it. But it is real, and it is sad, and it needs to be opposed until the end of time.

 

mythology

(9,527 posts)
9. Except Turner, his idiot dad and the asshat judge have all been widely condemned
Tue Jun 7, 2016, 09:39 PM
Jun 2016

The article is written from an agenda that assumes most if not all men are rapists.

The most recent research I'm aware of (a study of two U.S. universities) found that about 10% of men had raped. And while yes that is about 10% too high, it also means that in discussing rape the author shouldn't accuse most of us from being similar to Turner.

Trying to link Turner claiming it was consensual to a larger point about rape being a cultural norm is a little silly in my opinion. He was trying to convince a jury that he wasn't a rapist. What exactly was he supposed to say? "Yes I raped her, but don't convict me anyway." The fact that he ran when confronted is a pretty good indicator that he knew what he was doing was wrong. The fact that the two guys chased him down indicates they didn't participate in rape culture.

The author isn't just using too broad of a brush, she's openly letting her biases let her conclusion and then claiming the evidence supports it, rather than looking at the evidence and then forming a conclusion.

Do we as a society have a long way to go in terms of dealing with rape? Absolutely. But we have also come a long way. The fact that this case and it's poor resolution has generated such an outcry is in fact evidence of that. We as a society do recognize as a whole that rape is wrong, it's part of why rapists have to come up with so many "justifications". It's not like a thief goes out of their way to justify why they are stealing.

ProfessorGAC

(64,789 posts)
24. Well, I Can Assure You I'm In The Other 90
Wed Jun 8, 2016, 08:06 AM
Jun 2016

And i agree with you. 10 seems too high. Do we have a problem with some guys thinking it's their privilege to do whatever they please with women? Yep. But, that problem can be huge with far less than one in ten guys.

 

Kentonio

(4,377 posts)
34. Indeed.
Wed Jun 8, 2016, 09:10 AM
Jun 2016

If that 10% had been something like 'had carried out some form of sexual harrassment or assault' then sadly I'd have believed it, but 10% carried out an actual rape just seems ludicrous.

Bucky

(53,928 posts)
33. It sounds shockingly high, and it may mean 10% of adult men, but 30% of women have been victims
Wed Jun 8, 2016, 09:10 AM
Jun 2016

If you think of it in terms of an average of three assaults per perpetrator, 10% makes sense.

 

Kentonio

(4,377 posts)
35. 30% of women have not been victims of rape, where are you getting this figure from?!
Wed Jun 8, 2016, 09:11 AM
Jun 2016

Unwanted sexual contact or harrassment then sure, but actual rape?!

Bucky

(53,928 posts)
39. You're right. I was thinking about the number of college women raped
Wed Jun 8, 2016, 09:24 AM
Jun 2016

The National Sexual Violence Resource Center says 20% of all women

http://www.nsvrc.org/sites/default/files/publications_nsvrc_factsheet_media-packet_statistics-about-sexual-violence_0.pdf



I had heard 1 in 3 among college women during their time in college were victims of sexual assault (which would include failed rape attempts). But that number was incorrect. It's only 25%. 90% of those incidents involved attackers they knew personally and only 5% of those incidents get reported to the police.

http://www.nsvrc.org/saam/campus-resource-list#Stats



www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs239/en/
35% of women worldwide have experienced either physical and/or sexual intimate partner violence or non-partner sexual violence in their lifetime.

bloom

(11,635 posts)
30. I saw a stat where half of male college athletes had committed sexual assault.
Wed Jun 8, 2016, 08:57 AM
Jun 2016

Not that most had been arrested or convicted, of course.

harrose

(380 posts)
10. Of course the Rethugs don't condemn him....
Tue Jun 7, 2016, 11:42 PM
Jun 2016

... I wouldn't be surprised if EVERY Rethug were a closet rapist.

Response to harrose (Reply #10)

dilby

(2,273 posts)
11. Really because I don't see myself at all in Brock Turner.
Tue Jun 7, 2016, 11:56 PM
Jun 2016

I don't have first time sex with intoxicated women and I definitely don't have sex ever with an incapacitated woman. When I look at this little creep I see someone who might take advantage of my daughter when she goes to college. He should have gotten 10 years, I don't care about his life or what he feels. What I do care about is the next guy who will say it's only 6 months if I get caught.

ProudToBeBlueInRhody

(16,399 posts)
14. The childhood friend she referenced was a woman
Wed Jun 8, 2016, 03:15 AM
Jun 2016

I'm curious if she glossed over that or assumed it was a man.

ProudToBeBlueInRhody

(16,399 posts)
16. I honestly don't know
Wed Jun 8, 2016, 03:27 AM
Jun 2016

But it would certainly put some more spin to the story.

The bottom line is, we are tribelists (I know I spelled it wrong) who protect our own. We never think our friends or family could be bad people. And gender doesn't change that.

 

Matt_in_STL

(1,446 posts)
26. So men see themselves as entitled rapists?
Wed Jun 8, 2016, 08:36 AM
Jun 2016

You should be ashamed of this post and delete. Absolutely disgusting and divisive.

Quantess

(27,630 posts)
32. I don't think most men would rape someone like that.
Wed Jun 8, 2016, 09:08 AM
Jun 2016

Of course there are vague situations that could be construed as non-consensual sex, depending on where you draw the line.

What Brock Turner did is a pretty heinous rape, above and beyond drawing any lines of vagueness. On the ground behind a dumpster. That was pretty bad.

Response to KamaAina (Original post)

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
38. Surely no men here on DU have refused to condemn that rapist?
Wed Jun 8, 2016, 09:21 AM
Jun 2016

I assume you're referring to Reddit comments or something?

11 Bravo

(23,922 posts)
41. Did the two men who stopped the assault and restrained the rapist ...
Wed Jun 8, 2016, 09:55 AM
Jun 2016

until the police arrived "see themselves" in Brock Turner?
This kind of broad-brush bullshit is reprehensible and counter-productive.

hatrack

(59,558 posts)
46. I don't, and he's a big bag of precious, priveleged shit, along with Daddy and the judge
Wed Jun 8, 2016, 11:47 AM
Jun 2016

This is probably the most disgusting miscarriage of justice I've heard of in years, and the recall campaign can't happen quickly enough for the judge who perpetrated this travesty.

lapislzi

(5,762 posts)
50. Try reading the whole article. That's not what it says at all.
Wed Jun 8, 2016, 12:28 PM
Jun 2016

It says that many men have found themselves in similar situations. And that the ethics of these situations are questionable at best. If you feel like you're being "bashed" every time there's a thread about rape culture and what it looks like, then YOU are the problem.

Not particularly interested in your "feelings" about how men are being badly treated.

NaturalHigh

(12,778 posts)
54. It's a reasonable assumption considering the title...
Wed Jun 8, 2016, 03:11 PM
Jun 2016

but then you already knew that. Your decision to post this man-bashing piece of shit blog entry is very telling.

Paladin

(28,239 posts)
55. The kid should have gotten a much more severe sentence, and the judge should lose his job.
Wed Jun 8, 2016, 03:19 PM
Jun 2016

The kid's father is an idiot, and lots of men (myself very much included) view rape with absolute revulsion.

DemocratSinceBirth

(99,708 posts)
58. Out of all the fantasies I ever harbored I can honestly say none included sex with someone...
Wed Jun 8, 2016, 05:33 PM
Jun 2016

Out of all the fantasies I ever harbored I can honestly say none included sex with someone against their will.

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