There is no jihadist on this planet

[malaise]

who would attack a gay nightclub in Florida on Latin night

Get a grip media

[BumRushDaShow]

1. During Ramadan of all times

[malaise]

3. They know this is an RW attack

They know

[Joe the Revelator]

26. Be careful, out on that limb.

[Lizzie Poppet]

42. Sure: most Islamist radical groups are profoundly right-wing.

So it stands to reason...

[liberalnarb]

101. Thank you.

[Travis_0004]

57. He was a registered democrat

[malaise]

63. He was a fugging gay-hating scumbag

Good riddance

[1939]

130. That was just "deep cover" NT

[Amishman]

7. didn't ISIS threaten escalated violence during Ramadan?

[link:http://www.cnn.com/2016/05/22/world/isis-more-attacks-ramadan/|

[BumRushDaShow]

11. They can threaten

but the threat is a tool of terrorism, regardless of whether anything is carried out or not.

It's remarkable how "terrorism" is so narrowly defined depending on how and who a violent attack is carried out against. The Charleston church shooter was not called a "terrorist" although he had every motive and situation that fit the criteria of "terror" except his white face and he wasn't "ISIS".

[Joe the Revelator]

25. ISIS called for increased attacks during Ramadan. nt

[BumRushDaShow]

33. And Trump has stoked his own supporters

The issue being that there is a convoluted, always-changing set of criteria for what the majority population here in the U.S. call "terrorism" and it tends towards someone being "foreign" (or foreign descent) and "Islamic". It's never someone like James Holmes or Adam Lanza, even though both had similar numbers of causalities from shootings.

[Joe the Revelator]

90. I've never heard Trump speak out against LGBT. I've never heard Trump call for increased violent

attacks. I don't know of Trump behead LGPT folks in his strong holds.

I do know that ISIS has done all of those things.

Like is or not, ISIS is waging a war with the US. You can't hide your head in the sand on that.

[BumRushDaShow]

91. "I've never heard Trump call for increased violent attacks."

"He's smiling. See, he's having a good time," Trump said of a protester who was being escorted out by guards. “Oh, I love the old days, you know? You know what I hate? There's a guy, totally disruptive, throwing punches, we're not allowed to punch back anymore. I love the old days, you know what they used to do to guys like that when they were in a place like this? They'd be carried out in a stretcher, folks. Oh, it's true."

Trump went on to complain that "the guards are very gentle with him," before saying, "I'd like to punch him in the face, I'll tell you."

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2016/02/trump-on-protester-id-like-to-punch-his-face.html

My point has been when it comes to calling something "terrorism", the word has been almost exclusively used for non-white, non-Christian sickos who are "foreign" (or foreign-descended). Meanwhile terroristic hate crimes go on daily here that have nothing to do with Islam.

No one is denying that there are radicals who call themselves "Islamic" who are essentially cherry-picking and distorting the religion. But the problem is that there fundamentalists and zealots in every religion yet here in the U.S., only one is singled out through twisted and convoluted use of the term "terrorism". When Robert Dear shot up a Planned Parenthood facility, they didn't want to call it "Christian terrorism".

In this case, this guy's hatred of gays appeared to trump everything.

[Joe the Revelator]

92. This is terrorism.

To try to say otherwise, convolutes the actual issue and event here.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=post&forum=1002&pid=7901440

[BumRushDaShow]

96. I'm not saying it's not terrorism

which it is - against the LGBTQ community. I'm saying I don't believe it to be the U.S.-defined "anti-west Islamic Jihad-against-America terrorism" that gets bandied about.

But I am also arguing that THIS is terrorism but America won't call it that -



ALL hate crimes should be called "terrorism" but they are not for some idiotic reason.

[Joe the Revelator]

100. Sure, they all should, but in this particular instance, this particular gunman

had 'sworn' allegiance to ISIS. So it's not a mystery and it is terrorism against America and every fun loving night going person in the country.

[BumRushDaShow]

104. "this particular gunman had 'sworn' allegiance to ISIS."

Link?

[Joe the Revelator]

105. It's been on CNN

per a congressman.

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/congressman-says-hes-been-told-orlando-shooter-pledged-allegiance-to-isis/

Admittedly not a confirmation.

[BumRushDaShow]

114. CNN has been coming back to that angle on and off all morning

But the issue that I keep trying to bring out is that something is only called "terrorism" when referencing certain groups and certain religions but they refuse to apply it to other groups from other religions doing the exact same thing.

HATE is HATE no matter who attacks who and no matter what religion (or no religion) they belong to.

[Joe the Revelator]

115. I mean, i know your point, but...you brought up the idea of conveluting a story.

And that's exactly what it does to focus on things that have nothing to do with THIS incident when discuss THIS incident.

[BumRushDaShow]

117. It does have to do with it

because it is the type of hypocrisy that refuses to call Dylann Roof's shooting of 9 black parishioners in a church a "terrorist act" and even having an issue calling it a "hate crime", despite his being raised in a "very religious family" and his close following of the "Council of Conservative Citizens" that "calls for U.S. to 'adhere to Christian beliefs and values'", with a "Statement of Principles" that says the group -

"oppose(s) all efforts to mix the races of mankind, to promote non-white races over the European-American people through so-called 'affirmative action' and similar measures, to destroy or denigrate the European-American heritage, including the heritage of the Southern people, and to force the integration of the races."

Read more at http://www.christianpost.com/news/dylann-roofs-pastor-says-we-need-to-confront-the-reality-of-racism-after-charleston-church-massacre-140790/#6PIT2ttJve2i7JUm.99

I.e., any lunatic who is anti-black, anti-gay, anti-woman, etc., is a hateful person, regardless of their religion, and to call one "terrorism" if it is done by someone of one religion, but not do so for others from another religion, is a textbook case of the hypocrisy of the U.S.

[AntiBank]

125. actually ISIS is telling all to attack during Ramadan specifically

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-warns-of-month-of-violence-by-isis-during-ramadan-a7072791.html

US warns of month of violence by Isis during Ramadan
'According to Islamic practice, sacrifice during Ramadan can be considered more valuable than that made at other times'




The US government has warned its citizens both at home and abroad to be alert to an increased risk of terror attacks, as Isis and its followers seek to mark the Muslim holy month with violence.

The State Department alert cited an audio message by the Isis spokesman Abu Mohammad al-Adnani, which called on jihadists to “get prepared, be ready … to make it a month of calamity everywhere for nonbelievers…especially for the fighters and supporters of the caliphate in Europe and America.”

In a report issued by the State Department-led Overseas Security Advisory Council, officials said the threat was made more credible by the fact that there were three deadly attacks after Adnani made a similar statement last year.



Isis calls for 'lone wolf' attacks in US and Europe during Ramadan
“According to Islamic practice, sacrifice during Ramadan can be considered more valuable than that made at other times, so a call to martyrdom during the month may hold a special allure to some,” the report said.

[BumRushDaShow]

128. Yet this guy

was apparently pledging allegiance to ISIS and also to groups competing with and enemies of ISIS. I.e., this whole theory about him is a dead end as he was apparently a keyboard warrior wannabe.

[AntiBank]

129. I posited no theory, I simply showed your assertion was incorrect nt

[BumRushDaShow]

131. You only showed a lack of awareness of what the term "Jihad" is supposed to mean in Islam.

[AntiBank]

132. no, you did not even use "jihad" in your post, and I am well aware of its multiple meanings and

contextualisations, thank you very much.

[BumRushDaShow]

133. I was replying to the OP

but do take some time to look it up at some point.

[AntiBank]

134. look what up? jihad (struggle)? I already know its multiple permutations and multiple ways

people inside and outside of the global Umma use and abuse the term for their own projections, political agendas, etc. But thanks for the advice anyway. I always appreciate being condescended to.

[BumRushDaShow]

135. That feeling is mutual in terms of your lecturing post.

[malaise]

2. Oh and fugg the lone wolf

meme as well - they learn hatred from RW media, ReTHUG politicians and their Fundie churches

[yeoman6987]

126. I just hope the FBI now takes warnings more seriously

They had this terrorist in twice at least and let him go. How many other terrorists are out there they let go? I doubt it's just one.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

4. It's too early to speculate on anything.

And I mean anything.

[mucifer]

5. Yes, the USA media and the British media are posting different reports

Wait and see. It is too soon.

[ram2008]

6. The FBI said the individual may have leanings towards radical islam

I don't think they would say such a thing unless the evidence pointed that way.

[Oneironaut]

8. I disagree. I think the shooter was another radical Islamic terrorist.

People were quick to deny it could be in San Bernadino too. This was probably an ISIS-inspired terrorist who targeted the night club to kill LGBT people.

[rollin74]

9. and after the Boston marathon attack

lots of DU declarations that it HAD to have been a teabagger republican because it happened on "tax day"

[malaise]

13. And after McVeigh it HAD to be a Muslim n/t

[Oneironaut]

83. McVeigh had a totally different style of attack, different style target, and different background.

While the shooter is technically a right wing domestic terrorist, the type you're talking about is much different. They usually attack government buildings or the police.

[One_Life_To_Give]

109. Must of had different news in my area

Cause the news focus was quickly based upon the ATF office and possible ties to Waco (branch Davidians).
As to DU didn't think it existed in 95.

[Bucky]

24. We shouldn't project our fears and hatreds onto terrifying unknowns

The world is ugly enough some times with us needing to add our own biases into the mix. Our job is to understand it, adapt to it, and fix it where we can. That means taking the shades off first.

[apcalc]

80. Reported here that the suspect's father

Said he was upset by seeing two men kissing in Miami.

[Darb]

121. I see you.

Your slip is showing.

[Oneironaut]

123. k

[melman]

10. Why not?

What exactly are you basing that on?

[Bluenorthwest]

12. That's not an assertion you can support.

Man who set fire in Capitol Hill nightclub sentenced to 10 years
http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/man-who-set-fire-in-capitol-hill-nightclub-sentenced-to-10-years/

Seattle Man Confesses to Gay Couple's Murder As 'Vengeance' for Iraq, Syria
http://www.advocate.com/crime/2014/08/23/seattle-man-confesses-gay-couples-murder-vengeance-iraq-syria


How many more would you like?

[Ms. Yertle]

14. Really?

Why not?

[EL34x4]

15. I will never in a million years understand why many progressives

continue to unwaveringly defend radical Islam, possibly the most regressive religion on the planet.

This may not turn out to be Islamic terrorism but the fact that it is dismissed by some progressives as a possibility right off the bat is mind-boggling.

[Kentonio]

20. I've been accused of defending Islam before

Which is always humorous to me considering I'm an atheist. It's not about defending the religion, its about standing up against a culture where singling out a group based on their religion and demonizing them is increasingly common and accepted.

This incident could be Islamic terrorism and if it is then the American Muslim community will sadly have even more people turning against them for something that they had nothing to do with. Automatically assuming it is before we have actual proof though is just foolish and damaging, considering how many times early reports have turned out to be completely wrong.

[The2ndWheel]

21. Some people want things to be certain things

Not want the situation to happen, but want a certain story. If it's Muslim terrorists, it fits a certain story. If it's Christian terrorists, it fits a certain story. If it's a black guy. If it's a white guy. If it's a republican. If it's a liberal. If they''re religious. Then whichever story you believe in, you can use it as example of how you're right. See! I told you!

Everyone wants to be right in their thought process and mindset. They make us who we are after all.

[pangaia]

28. Who is defending "radical Islam?" Where?

[name not needed]

29. Malaise, philososlayer, I'm sure mwrguy is somewhere clucking about how great burqas are.

[philosslayer]

31. Since you're dragging my name into it, here is where I lay MY blame

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027900304

[name not needed]

32. Typical. It's always Trump's fault, never the hadji with the rifle and the suicide vest.

[philosslayer]

37. This person is just another warrior in Trumps army

Trump has an army of supporters on BOTH sides who just love to see when this sort of things happen. Make no mistake.

[GummyBearz]

95. Wow

Muslims support trump? That makes as much sense as any of your other posts

[tavernier]

106. True, your name is not needed,

Ivanka.

[Humanist_Activist]

36. Yeah, and that makes absolutely no logical sense. n/t

[malaise]

77. No - I am not defending jihadists

I said this crime was not committed by one of them. Turns out his father said that he was very upset at seeing two men kissing in downtown Miami a few months ago.

This was a hate crime against all gays in America. Let's stop muddling issues and condemn all attacks on gay Americans. Stop giving RW haters the opportunity to run from their fueling hatred.

[jwirr]

94. I see what you are saying but why can't there be more than

one reason. ISIS influence, hate, bigotry? They all fit together IMO.

[malaise]

112. May well be

The assault rifles have to go

[jwirr]

113. Yes.

[Mojorabbit]

110. It can be both

Sen Nelson says he is being told this person had links to Islamic terrorism by people on intelligence committee. Local news reporting he was upset to see gays kissing. both can be accurate though still early to tell.

[Odin2005]

102. I was accused of being a Trump supporter in a LBN thread.

[tenderfoot]

108. OMG - it's an epidemic! Three+ DUers = ALL PROGRESSIVES/LIBERALS/DEMOCRATS!!!!!

The math totally backs up your assertions!

[treestar]

127. No one does that

they just defend the other Muslims from being lumped in with them.

[aikoaiko]

16. I don't put the potential for evil deeds past anyone.

But I think it is more likely to be an American RW fundie.

[davidn3600]

17. Are you suggesting radical Islam is accepting of homosexuality?

How long do you think an openly gay man would last in the mid-east? Honestly...

ISIS throws them off buildings...
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/isis-persecution-gay-men-murder-lgbt-muslim-society/

[Dr Hobbitstein]

18. Orlando PD called it "Domestic Terrorism". nt

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

19. Good fucking lord

Yeah, jihadists are liberals who all vote Democrat and support LGBT causes. Just like Free Republic claims.

[apcalc]

82. 50 dead!!!

[ButterflyBlood]

22. erm, why?

I have a tough time believing these killers seriously care about such things.

[ileus]

23. Probably another NRA loving Christian.

[Kurska]

27. So you gonna self delete or should I take a screen shot?

Ya know, in a hour when you are proved wrong.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/pulse-nightclub-shooting-orlando/

"Islamic terrorism tie eyed in Orlando gay bar shooting"

Didn't even take a hour for this to start falling apart.

[malaise]

30. He was born in New York in 1989 n/t

[Humanist_Activist]

34. Does that make it impossible that he's an Islamic terrorist?

Are all natural born citizens magically Christian or something?

[malaise]

41. Only the Christians are lone wolves with mental issues

or so they have convinced most of you

[Kurska]

48. Your sympathy for the victims is just gushing

If I had said this, I'd just admit I was wrong and close my mouth. Keep digging that hole though man.

[malaise]

53. Go read what his father just said

The domestic terrorist's father said he was very upset a few months ago when he saw two men kissing in downtown Miami. He said it was not about religion. This is an American (no less American than Judge Curiel) who hates gays.

[Kurska]

59. Why is your concern entirely about making sure the shooter is portrayed in the correct light?

You do realize there are twenty corpses right?

By the way

http://www.itv.com/news/update/2016-06-12/fbi-shooter-may-have-leanings-towards-is/

How is your precious little world view going to survive the next 24 hours if you genuinely believe what you said in the OP? I'd say it was a tragedy if not for, you know, all the people who were just murdered.

[Humanist_Activist]

50. Uh? What are you babbling on about?

There are quite a few radical groups in this country, some Christian, some even Secular, some Muslim, etc.

Think back to a lot of the mass shootings that occurred in the United States, the white, Christian terrorist who shot up that Sikh temple was called so, I don't remember people saying he was simply mentally ill. That racist POS, Dylann Roof, I don't remember people saying he wasn't inspired by the Neo-Confederate and white supremacist movement. Same motivations for Timothy McVeigh and others, going further back.

Is it impossible for this natural born citizen to not be radicalized by elements within his own religion as well?

[malaise]

56. Go read his father's comments

He hates 'the gays'. This was a vile hate crime -nothing to do with religion.

[Kurska]

35. So you're saying Western muslim communities have unaddressed issues with radicalization?

I agree, glad to see you admit it.

Unless you're saying being born in America means he can't be interested in radical Islam, which is just a bizarre proposition.

[malaise]

38. He is an American domestic terrorist

That's what I'm saying

[Kurska]

43. Cute word play

Personally I don't appreciate cute word play to the obfuscate responsibility of a man standing on a pile of corpses.

Looking more and more like radical Islam, but you keep repeating that mantra of "American domestic terrorist" while ignoring the motives.

[philosslayer]

45. Wrong

Born in 1986. You have the wrong guy.

[BumRushDaShow]

47. MSNBC just read a statement from the shooter's father

who said his son was sickened by 2 men kissing a few months ago and felt that this may have been the reason.

Bingo.

[malaise]

61. Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! n/t

[BumRushDaShow]

62. Shit - now saying 50 dead.

Calling state of emergency.

[malaise]

65. Holy facting shite

This is crazy.

[Ace Rothstein]

39. Wrong

[boston bean]

40. I think you may be wrong about this.

[malaise]

51. His father said this has nothing to do with religion

but his son got very upset when he saw two men kidding in downtown Miami a few months ago. This is a fugging hate crime by a gay-hating American. He apologized to everyone for his son's actions.

[boston bean]

52. All terrorism is a hate crime.

[Kurska]

55. Come on man

http://www.itv.com/news/update/2016-06-12/fbi-shooter-may-have-leanings-towards-is/

That sympathy for the victims is still flowing out of your every pore by the way.

[linuxman]

44. Well this is embarrassing.

Saw it coming, though.

[jmg257]

46. Or not.

[NutmegYankee]

49. Considering that fundamentalist religion is EXTREMELY hostile to LGBT people

I can easily see such a scenario. Very plausible.

[cali]

54. That statement is literally nuts.

Of course there are jihadists who would do such a thing.

We just don't know enough to speculate.

[Dreamer Tatum]

58. ESPECIALLY not on Latin Night. We can rule out Islamic terror right there.

LATIN Night?

Maybe Pirate Night. Or Disco Night. But Latin night? No way.

[BumRushDaShow]

60. Shit - now saying 50 dead.

Update press conference on now.

[Kurska]

66. Link?

That is absolutely unbelievable.

[BumRushDaShow]

67. This is live from the press conference

which is going on right now.

WAPO link - https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/06/12/orlando-nightclub-shooting-about-20-dead-in-domestic-terror-incident-at-gay-club/?utm_term=.d1dd6018cba7

[Kurska]

69. I think I'm going to be sick... EOM

[BumRushDaShow]

70. I updated with a WAPO link confirming.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

72. My god.....no

This is heartbreaking

[auntpurl]

64. Well, that is bullshit.

Sorry, but it is.

[malaise]

68. This may turn out to be the largest crime against

of gay Americans in history. This was a hate crime - not a religious attack

[Kurska]

71. "not a religious attack"

Meanwhile... in reality.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/pulse-nightclub-shooting-orlando/

[BumRushDaShow]

73. Exactly - probably the largest number of victims in general from shooting too.

[auntpurl]

74. No shit it was a hate crime.

But what you said in your OP is still bullshit. I live in Europe. I know exactly what jihadists are capable of.

[Dreamer Tatum]

75. Have you contacted the FBI? You sure seem to know all there is to know about this.

It's almost like Serena Williams in somehow involved.

[philosslayer]

76. Thank you for introducing logic and sanity into this conversation

Its obvious who the shooter targeted, and why. His religion is immaterial.

[malaise]

78. That's precisely what his father said

Too fugging sad.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

84. And if the shooter was a white Christian....

.....and his father came on tv and said the same thing, I'm sure you'd believe him.....

[malaise]

85. Sure if he had slaughtered 50 innocent people at a gay night club

and injured 50+ more.

There are virulently anti-gay people some of whom have Fundie (regardless of religion) links and others who hate them because of their own insecurities.

[cali]

79. Indeed it is. As Tommy Carcetti has said wisely and repeatedly this morning

we simply don't know enough to make this kind of disrespectful speculation.

[Dreamer Tatum]

81. On DU, "we don't know enough" pretty much means

"oh shit, it looks like it might be Islamic terror."

ISIS JUST made a Florida-specific threat. But by all means, let's ignore that.

[MousePlayingDaffodil]

87. You're wasting your breath . . .

. . . arguing the point with certain people. They will believe what they want to believe, no matter what. Their ideological/political presuppositions will direct their assessment of any and all situations.

That's their prerogative, of course. Just as it is my prerogative not to take seriously their thoughts on such matters, because I know that their thinking is thus contaminated.

[Dreamer Tatum]

88. Yeah, it's just random gun violence. Unless the shooter is Christian.

Then Rush Limbaugh needs to be locked up, or something.

[randome]

86. Is it EVER one thing over another?

Religion feeds into the culture. The culture feeds into bad behavior. Bad behavior plus the easy accessibility to weaponry equals mass murder.

1. Religion.
2. Culture.
3. Bad behavior.
4. Heavy weaponry.

They are ALL to blame, imo. Nothing occurs in a vacuum.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]The truth doesn’t always set you free.
Sometimes it builds a bigger cage around the one you’re already in.[/center][/font][hr]

[malaise]

89. Good post ramdome

It is all those things - but this is a despicable hate crime.

[Joe the Revelator]

93. CNN: Shooter swore allegiance to ISIS

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=post&forum=1002&pid=7901440

[Bonx]

116. But he can't be a Jihadist. Says so right in the OP.

[Kurska]

97. Shooter pledged allegiance to ISIS being reported now

Got a response to that?

This thread should go down in DU history.

[Ruby the Liberal]

98. You underestimate ideological hatred nt

[Just reading posts]

99. You may want to revise that....

[Odin2005]

103. LOL

[GummyBearz]

107. You seem to know a lot about jihadis

And you also seem to be wrong about 95% of the time. That is a good thing. It means you aren't a jihadi. It also means you may want to not post about things you know nothing about.

[One_Life_To_Give]

111. Failure to grapple with 1st generation born in US and how ISIL recruits them is a mistake.

There is a curious phenomena we do need to address as a society. Be it the young women sneaking out of their homes and migrating to ISIL held territories. Or the sometimes very accomplished men who suddenly give their lives in a suicidal attack. We really need to understand and figure out how to deal with why this happens to kids who should be growing up as Americanized as the rest of us. And we don't accomplish that by ignoring the links to ISIL and it's online recruitment efforts.

[TacoD]

118. #NoTrueJihadist (nt)

[TacoD]

119. #NotAllJihadists (nt)

[cali]

120. I hope this makes you reflect a bit.

It is appearing clearer that what you insisted in your op was impossible, was the reality.

[linuxman]

122. There is at least one.

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/orlando-nightclub-massacre/terror-hate-what-motivated-orlando-nightclub-shooter-n590496

[ButterflyBlood]

124. Well we saw how accurate this was...

Nt