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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsHe hated gay people. His brand of religion said that was okay.
Last edited Sun Jun 12, 2016, 01:20 PM - Edit history (1)
It's one from column A and one from column B.
Hate can be complex.
Note.....I didn't mention a particular religion. I happen to think the whole Abramahic scheme is fucked.
boston bean
(36,220 posts)msanthrope
(37,549 posts)uponit7771
(90,335 posts)... devout Muslim either.
tia
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)Seems like it's endemic to the Abramahic religions.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)GummyBearz
(2,931 posts)nt
octoberlib
(14,971 posts)You haven't met any Christian evangelicals, then. They're every bit as bad.
GummyBearz
(2,931 posts)I do hate when they knock on my door and want to talk about the bible. That seems a little less severe than what happened last night.
octoberlib
(14,971 posts)But the most hateful rhetoric I've ever heard came from a bunch of Evangelicals at one of our city council meetings to pass a gay rights bill. They were threatening and harassing LGBTQ activists.
GummyBearz
(2,931 posts)Didn't you ever hear that sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me?
I'd rather get harassed than shot. Maybe you feel differently. You could try out both and come back with a definitive answer.
840high
(17,196 posts)ButterflyBlood
(12,644 posts)Sri Lanka has also had incidents of hate crimes from Buddhists and attacks on Hindu temples.
unc70
(6,110 posts)Try looking in places like Sri Lanka or Myanmar. There you will find radical fundamentalist Buddhist monks leading violent attacks against other religious groups (Hindi, Muslim, Christian). The world is a complex place.
MH1
(17,595 posts)I don't know about Pagans but suspect I could find examples there as well, if I looked hard enough.
I think it is endemic to extremist religions, period.
I suspect one could draw some mapping between the strength of certain statements in the religion's holy texts, to the prevalence of violent extremism in that religion. For example, Buddhist tenets generally point to non-violent conflict resolution (I think; I'm not an expert); in Christianity there are specific verses that leave judgment of others to God, not the believer. Of course those are in the New Testament to my knowledge; so fundamentalists (who weight the Old Testament at least as important as the New, which makes no sense to me), tend to ignore those passages or interpret them differently.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)uponit7771
(90,335 posts)mucifer
(23,522 posts)I'm just saying you don't have to be religious to hate.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)ForgoTheConsequence
(4,868 posts)Deirdre WalshVerified account
?@deirdrewalshcnn
Rep Schiff, top Dem on House Intel, says on CNN he was told shooter made pledge of allegiance to ISIL,cautions still early in investigation
milestogo
(16,829 posts)Lots of homophobes are not religious.
Person 2713
(3,263 posts)Southerncomfy
(117 posts)randome
(34,845 posts)[hr][font color="blue"][center]The truth doesnt always set you free.
Sometimes it builds a bigger cage around the one youre already in.[/center][/font][hr]
Southerncomfy
(117 posts)randome
(34,845 posts)[hr][font color="blue"][center]The truth doesnt always set you free.
Sometimes it builds a bigger cage around the one youre already in.[/center][/font][hr]
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)randome
(34,845 posts)A hate crime usually occurs as an isolated incident, such as shooting your neighbor who always offended you by behaving in an unapproved manner.
But mass murder of strangers on this scale? That's something else.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]The truth doesnt always set you free.
Sometimes it builds a bigger cage around the one youre already in.[/center][/font][hr]
auntpurl
(4,311 posts)He might have been an atheist for all we know!
FFS, the LAST thing I want to do is defend Islamic extremists! Jesus, they are murderous shitheads. But this is all speculation. We know it was a hate crime. We know it may have been motivated by either Islamic extremism or plain old homophobia. But we don't know which (or both) yet!
Speculation like this leads to anti-Muslim sentiment and peaceful American Muslims being endangered.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)... even Muslim.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)uponit7771
(90,335 posts)msanthrope
(37,549 posts)dress. Hell, I've had clients specifically request they be allowed to wear "garb" in court. I guess I should have told them they were being stereotypical
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)... said his hate crime was tied to Christianity
randome
(34,845 posts)It's more ritualistic, more intrusive, more monolithic. Christianity has some of that, as well, but not, imo, as thoroughly as does Islam.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]The truth doesnt always set you free.
Sometimes it builds a bigger cage around the one youre already in.[/center][/font][hr]
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)randome
(34,845 posts)I get your point, though. The only Muslim/Islamic individuals I know are co-workers, some of them citizens, some of them not, and I don't know any of them very closely.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]The truth doesnt always set you free.
Sometimes it builds a bigger cage around the one youre already in.[/center][/font][hr]
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)... they were involved.
No one called Roof out on his devout Christianity after his mass murder and Christians have been involved in terrorism and mass murder for the start
randome
(34,845 posts)...that since Christianity is 'our' religion (note the use of quotes around that), that we give it more leeway -consciously or not- than with other religions. Something to consider, maybe.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]The truth doesnt always set you free.
Sometimes it builds a bigger cage around the one youre already in.[/center][/font][hr]
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)msanthrope
(37,549 posts)Mateen was a US citizen, however.
.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)... evidence Christianity had anything to do with Roofs
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)auntpurl
(4,311 posts)Sorry, but take your own advice!
kwassa
(23,340 posts)Does this make him a cop?
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)David__77
(23,367 posts)I agree with letting the facts come out before the government makes a conclusion.
The fbi spokesperson already indicated that there's a likelihood of connection to Islamic ideology. I personally think it's almost certain that there is. I can't imagine anyone finding that surprising. Islamist extremists will exterminate anyone in their kill lists.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)... his mass murder.
I'd like to see the evidence first not some peoples "statements"
David__77
(23,367 posts)I'm having a bit of an emotional reaction as a gay man. That doesn't mean that I'm not responsible for my own reactions and statement - I am.
I do think that this is an action motivated by radical Islamic ideology. I think that this will be borne out soon.
JustAnotherGen
(31,798 posts)David__77
(23,367 posts)I'm having a bit of an emotional reaction as a gay man. That doesn't mean that I'm not responsible for my own reactions and statement - I am.
I do think that this is an action motivated by radical Islamic ideology. I think that this will be borne out soon.
MellowDem
(5,018 posts)and murder people based on a racist ideology, that definitely says something about Christianity.
When a religion promotes hate, bigotry, and violence against all sorts of groups, and they worship a God that commits genocide, then the religion has to take part of the blame for the culture it promotes, no matter how "devout" a person considers themselves.
The Abrahamic religions are partially to blame for a lot of the hate and violence in the world we see today.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)MellowDem
(5,018 posts)hell, the Abrahamic God genocides the entire population of the Earth, commits infanticide, dehumanizes women, and calls homsexual acts an "abomination", anyone who doesn't think these and other things continue to promote hate in all sorts of ways seem to either be defending religious privilege or unwilling to stop identifying with said religions.
auntpurl
(4,311 posts)It just may not be true. Waiting for the facts to come in is the responsible thing to do, in my opinion.
David__77
(23,367 posts)I'm speaking as a private citizen. I believe that it's the case based on the information that is available to me.
I think that the organizations and ideologies of radical Islam are dangerous and destructive and should be completely eliminated from society. I think that the US should stop allying for the purveyors or these ideologies and the funders of these organizations.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)... thx in advance for any input
David__77
(23,367 posts)I'm not conducting a criminal investigation. My criteria in making an evaluation are different.
An FBI agent indicated that he may have leaning toward Islamic extremism. An anonymous source indicated that he was previously under investigation; also, I note that these investigations were closed.
http://heavy.com/news/2016/06/omar-mateen-pulse-orlando-florida-shooting-gunman-attack-name-photos-facebook-motive-terrorism/
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)get the red out
(13,461 posts)The guy appears to be inspired by an Islamic extremist terror organization that interprets their religion according to whatever evil they want to accomplish. I don't see why this is so hard to accept? Attacks on Family Planning clinics have the same relationship to Christianity.
People anxious to kill would probably not be happy with (and would stand out in) a normal Mosque or Church (yes I know there are wretched examples of places of worship).
Trust Buster
(7,299 posts)uponit7771
(90,335 posts)msanthrope
(37,549 posts)justiceischeap
(14,040 posts)for their rhetoric about homosexuality too. Not too long ago on DU, we had liberals blaming the LGBTQ community for losses and telling us our issues didn't matter. So you can't lay it all at the feet of religion. PS, I'm an atheist.
Person 2713
(3,263 posts)PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)randome
(34,845 posts)Both are the background noise that 'inspires' mass killings.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]The truth doesnt always set you free.
Sometimes it builds a bigger cage around the one youre already in.[/center][/font][hr]
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)RW ideology is responsible for the PP attack.
MellowDem
(5,018 posts)is so mainstream, privileged and widespread that it is rarely ever allowed to be challenged.
That's why the term "Islamophobia" is so offensive to me, akin to "Fascismphobia" or "Racismphobia", making victims of a bigoted belief system. Being afraid of a religion whose holy texts promote hate and bigotry against homosexuals (and a lot of other people) isn't irrational.
And for members of said religions who don't want to be associated with the hate and bigotry in their own holy books, it's all just a matter of privilege to pretend they can claim identity with these groups while not accepting responsibility for what their religion promotes.
MindPilot
(12,693 posts)I'm amazed at the level of the pretzel logic I see here as people try to blame something, anything other than religion.
Response to msanthrope (Original post)
Post removed
Quackers
(2,256 posts)Who exactly decides what's extreme? I've seen plenty of people that say just believing in a God is enough to qualify as extremism and mental illness.
still_one
(92,116 posts)backscatter712
(26,355 posts)I don't know what it is about Islam that seems to bring out more violence - must be more of those "genes" being activated in Islamic circles these days, although that can and has changed in both Christianity and Islam. Even Buddhism is vulnerable to this - see places like Burma and Sri Lanka for examples of Buddhist fundies getting violent.
But I'd say the least common denominator in these sorts of violent incidents is fundamentalism.
If you ask me, I think every person spouting too much extremist religious ideology should be Baker Acted and deprogrammed.
roamer65
(36,745 posts)Person 2713
(3,263 posts)Don't make it a circle of hate
Does no good IMO
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)It is fitting and proper to take a moment to discuss the actual hate that left 50 people dead. Relatively speaking any discussion of schools of thought don't seem all that hateful.
Person 2713
(3,263 posts)Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)And they do have to own it. You can't be a KKK member and say 'well, how dare you think I'm racist I just like the pot luck dinners and such, don't you dare assume that my being in a hate club means that I hate!!!!!'
You can have your faith cake or you can eat it. You can't have both.
Bengi
(3 posts)Many people think being gay is misguided and that religion is guidance.
it has nothing to do with this shooting or who he was
He hated "The pursuit of happyness" and allowing people to be happy regardless of a personal view
a piece of paper can't make you an American.
You have to cross those borders in your mind
6000eliot
(5,643 posts)Skittles
(153,141 posts)how to hate gays and pimp for guns and still pretend that they care at all about what happened
TipTok
(2,474 posts)Mandatory...
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Not necessarlily devout, just a person with deep hate inside and the means to destroy lives and murder our citizens. To sit up and plan this took a while lot of hate in his heart.
joshcryer
(62,269 posts)And I think while it was absolutely a mass hate crime, the guy was fed some seriously sick shit in his religious associations. If you have a "scholar" saying "gays must all be killed" I don't know how much that can be considered protected speech. When the militia talked about killing people they were arrested and ostracized. There is a good documentary about the militia diaspora (how many of them went to Alaska, etc). While the militia and its cohorts did not do mass shootings, everyone knows of the Oklahoma City bombing. And bands of militia are still arrested to this day (see Bundy's group of fascists). Hiding hate speech under religion is a difficult prospect to get rid of, but it needs to be dealt with the same way that the militia was dealt with.
Here's the documentary: