This is freedom.

[WilliamPitt]

More mass shootings this year so far than days passed on the calendar.

Will we get the war weapons off the streets? Will the leaders lead?

No, we won't. No, they won't.

We will stack the bodies like cordwood using children as the mortar to build our real wall, the one between our humanity and ourselves. The TV will be sad for a few days and then Justin Bieber will drive too fast somewhere, and we'll roll those bones under the rug with all the others.

When 20 dead children at Sandy Hook changed nothing and almost 90,000 have died by gun violence since, we crossed a moral Rubicon. There is no coming back. This is what we are.

We are the Monster State. We stack the bodies and stroke the bullets until they are greasy with sweat. We are heroes, proud in the thunder of our guns, because this is freedom.

This is freedom.

This is freedom.

Not with a whimper, but a bang.

This is freedom.

[Gomez163]

1. I think we can do better and must.

[Kang Colby]

2. I'm sure new gun laws will be passed in 24 business hours. n/t

[Gomez163]

3. We undid the NFL local blackout in less. But that was important.

[Pakid]

10. Yes

Making it even easier to get guns that's the NRA way. When will America learn that more guns is not the answer

[WilliamPitt]

14. Looks like they didn't get your joke.

Not your fault. Everything gets old. Even the Mona Lisa is falling apart.

[msanthrope]

18. I got it. nt

[sheshe2]

20. I got it. nt

[yodermon]

39. not the thread for THAT.

I have given wrp shit for that as well, but not this thread. delete your post.

[RoccoR5955]

54. Yeah, just like they were after Sandy Hook.

Dream on. The NRA has purchased the Congress and Senate. They now OWN it, and there shall be no more gun regulations.

[merrily]

4. Elections financed by you and me, or by the NRA?

[CountAllVotes]

5. The War on Drugs is far more important

Guns, go buy a dozen or so right now. You need them we are told.

Nation Under Gawd.

In the meantime, lock up that sick person and torture them a bit. It won't hurt or so they say.

Amerikkka, love it or leave it.

[Silver_Witch]

52. This^^^

[dickthegrouch]

6. It's not freedom for those assaulted

No one has the right EVER to point their gun at me. My freedom (and all peace loveing people's) is INFINITELY more important than the supposed right to bear arms.

[OwlinAZ]

62. Honestly, do you people read?

or has this entire place been taken over by Joe McCarthy.

[onecaliberal]

7. Freedumb

[NutmegYankee]

9. Why post such a comment?

[Cassiopeia]

11. Permission to share elsewhere

with attribution of course.

[WilliamPitt]

13. Granted

[Cassiopeia]

15. Thanks.

[ananda]

17. Same here.

It's on my FB page.

Thanks for posting.

[Warren DeMontague]

12. I'd prefer it if we not try and taint a good word like freedom with this shit.

Freedom as a principle and an ideal is a good thing.

Due to the efforts of Debbie Wasserman Schultz and Sheldon Adelson, cancer grannies in Florida are still being dragged off to prison for growing medical marijuana. Florida isn't "free" in that regard.

It might be worth noting that the killer didn't walk into the nightclub and kill all those people with a bong.

Yes, easy access to high-powered weaponry; a very select sort of "freedom"- was a factor here. As was hatred and belief that there is a giant invisble man in the sky whose apparent primary concern in 14 trillion light-years of Universe, is who is having sex with whom on this small planet in a nondescript spiral arm of the milky way galaxy.

Guns were the hardware, but let's be honest and acknowledge that Islamic Fundamentalism- not "Freedom"- was the software, driving this monstrous act.

[grossproffit]

16. Yep.

[Moostache]

21. No, belief in a sky daddy - ANY sky daddy - is the software here...

Any name or flavor can be the root cause - Yahweh, Jehovah, Allah .... Thor, Zeus, Apollo .... Ra, Krishna, Jupiter. Those who believe in the infallibility of their own doctrines, and especially infallible holy books, are a clear and present danger. This ludicrous interpretation of 'god' as an interacting, ethereal agent or all-seeing, all-knowing judgemental asshat is what fuels the sick minds of literalists and what finds comfort and acceptance from the weak-willed, fearful of mortality crowd that remain adherents to "the faith".

Anyone who interprets any flavor of these so-called holy books or religions as recommending death, for humans to mete out as a penalty under divine ordinance, for ANYTHING in the here and now, ostensibly to secure a place in eternity or 'save souls of the almighty', are not-so-cordially invited to FUCK RIGHT OFF ALREADY.

Anyone who shares those beliefs - in the name of any fictitious "lord", "god", or "prophet" - the blood on your hands today should remain with you as a stain on your life the rest of your days. Denounce those who carry a provably impossible literal reading of any holy book and commit acts of hate due to this madness, or sign your name in the blood they spill, on you own confession and atonement to the human race.

Silence IS consent.
Inaction IS abetting.
Non-reaction IS approval.

I am sick of people hiding behind a fairy tale to justify the monsters of humanity's darkest nature.

You either stand with those on the side of justice and equality, and yes TRUE FREEDOM (Freedom of religion INCLUDES the very necessary freedom FROM religion); or you stand with the literalists and fundamentalists as boils on the ass of humanity.

Period.

[Warren DeMontague]

22. I think it's an overdue conversation.

Yes.

[Laha]

25. Thank you

[Wednesdays]

36. “Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.” -- Voltaire

nt

[OwlinAZ]

63. Huzzah

[Lizzie Poppet]

42. Irrational belief can lead to irrational acts.

However, belief of that sort is also (largely) non-volitional. You can't just decide one day that you believe something different...you instead identify that a change of belief has occurred at a subconscious level. So weaning the species from such irrationality takes time.

[Silver_Witch]

53. Thank you!

[840high]

24. ...!100++++

[passiveporcupine]

27. Let's be honest

bombs kill a lot of people too, and are used by fundamentalists in terror attacks. BUT, bombs are not legal in the US.

This young man walked into a store and bought two guns about a week earlier, one of which was an AK 47 style weapon, using large magazines that are easy to swap out, that can kill (and did) up to 50 people or more in a few minutes. And he did it legally. And he'd been on the FBI's watch list in the past (twice) for on-line verbiage that sounded fundmentalist, and he beat his wife. Why was he allowed to buy a weapon like this?

Why? For crap's sake, why is it legal in the US for people to buy weapons like this?

In another thread a defender of guns tried to compare this to an attack in China that killed 29 people and wounded many more, with knives...but that was a ten-man attack...average of 3 people killed per attacker before they were stopped.

This was one guy with an AK 47 type weapon with semi auto and large mag capacity and he killed (I believe) 53 and more may die because many are critically injured.

Why?

[Warren DeMontague]

28. I agree. If only he'd had some pot plants in his basement, instead

Then would be facing serious Florida prison time.

http://www.wptv.com/news/region-martin-county/stuart/stuart-woman-faces-10-years-in-prison-in-medical-marijuana-case

[passiveporcupine]

30. I agree with you on the MJ issue too

Absolutely ridiculous, and it's still a class I drug.

Stupid people do stupid things. And fear dominates.

[Bluenorthwest]

47. Previous to Orlando the most deadly attack on a gay place was a gasoline arson. 32 dead.

Eric Rudolph used a nail filled bomb at a gay bar in Atlanta.

I'm not fond of arguments such as yours which seem to suggest that the device used is the important factor, not the user of the device nor the victims of that user.

Point being, had Mateen used gasoline, what would DU be talking about? To you it is all about the guns. But I am no more interested in being burned to death by fanatic bigots than I am in being shot by them, understand?

[KamaAina]

64. The UpStairs Lounge in New Orleans.

During my all-too-brief time in NOLA, I spent quite a bit of time around members of its vibrant LGBT community, some of whom used to help us defend women's health clinics. Yet I heard nary a word about that tragedy, and did not learn of it until years later.

[jtuck004]

32. That's because it is being used incorrectly. This is license, not freedom..

"and legal philosophy, there exists a distinction between the concepts of freedom and license. The former deals with the rights of the individual; the latter covers the expressed permission (or lack thereof) for more than one individual to engage in an activity.
-wiki

and

http://www.allthatglittersbook.com/freedom-vs-license/

and

"Freedom is operating within the bounds of restraint and responsibility: taking license is not."
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-difference-between-freedom-and-license

and

It is lived in practice at the Summerhill School.
"In creating its laws and dealing out sanctions, the school meeting generally applies A. S. Neill's maxim "Freedom not Licence" (he wrote a book of the same name); the principle that you can do as you please, so long as it doesn't cause harm to others. Hence, you are free to swear as much as you like, within the school grounds, but calling someone else an offensive name is licence.

It is upon these major principles – namely, democracy, equality, and freedom – that Summerhill School operates.
-wiki"

Using freedom for everything makes it harder to value, but that's just my opinion.

[LanternWaste]

49. No imaginary concept is an absolute, whether we want it to be an absolute good

"Freedom as a principle and an ideal is a good thing..."

No imaginary concept is an absolute, whether we want it to be an absolute good or an absolute bad. Nor is there any rational reason to treat it as such.

[Warren DeMontague]

66. Is a principle and an ideal the same thing as an absolute?

No, it is not.

In fact, principles and ideals are rarely actualized 100%. If ever.

My point is, it's disingenuous to say that "freedom" per se is the real problem, here. If we want to try and make lists of what we think the real underlying problem is, I suspect there are a number of concepts which could be ranked on the list higher than "freedom".

[Night Watchman]

19. This is a Free-Fire Zone

[Indydem]

23. Thought you were done with DU?

When can we expect that Rove frog march?

Your opinion, like your facts, are subject to scrutiny.

[paleotn]

33. As are yours. n/t

[hay rick]

35. Your spite is duly noted. nt

[Iggo]

46. Yeah, forget the message.

I don't like the messenger!

[LanternWaste]

50. Other than petulance, what is the precise relevance of your missive

Other than accurately advertising your own petulance, what is the precise relevance of your missive in regards to the OP?

[Indydem]

65. WilliamPitt should have been permanently banned.

Calling President Barack Obama a:

"Piece of Shit Used Car Salesman"

is beyond the pale.

How this guy is still around continues to baffle me.

[OwlinAZ]

61. All of our opinions to scub are subject to scrutiny.

[bemildred]

26. K & R. nt

[sarisataka]

29. Is freedom too dangerous

To exist in a modern society?

Must not only guns, obviously, be highly restricted but also to have government keeping secret lists of people, monitoring speech for hate content, confiscating private property to protect the public, restricting religious beliefs and on and on?

Perhaps the public cannot be trusted with freedom and must be watched for their own good.

[malaise]

31. Yes

K & R

[MisterP]

34. nothing will change

[Demonaut]

37. rec

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

38. K&R. Good to hear from you.

Where are all these 2A zealots when other parts of the Constitution are threatened or violated?

Just like those master hypocrites who claim transgender public restrooms will lead to women being raped, yet who have nothing to say about the epidemic of rape that actually does right now exist within the US military.

It's not the Constitution, it's not the women--it's something far less honorable that drives their militancy.

[snooper2]

40. How come you only come out when something big happens?

attention?

[WilliamPitt]

41. How come you never go away?

attention?

[snooper2]

43. No, my job is to correct people post things that are incorrect- Along with random sarcasm

Pay is GREAT!

[WilliamPitt]

44. Good luck with the O'Malley thing.

[snooper2]

45. VP spot baby! just needs 8 more years to get known!

[davidthegnome]

48. No, Mr. Pitt. This is not what we are.

This is rather a demonstration of some of the worst humanity has to offer. It is tragic, it is terrible, it is awful beyond words. It is not, however, who or what we are.

Think, not just of the shooter, but of the victims. Those who reached out to help others, despite fear for their own safety, despite the very real possibility of being gunned down. Think, not just of the bigotry and hate that enables and encourages these things - but of the good and great people who stand with courage and compassion... and love for their fellow human beings... even when the worst happens. Those people who do not give up, but stand more strongly than ever for equality, compassion - and love. Despite of the fear, anger, ignorance and hate that surrounds them. Their spirit of nobility, of empathy, of love... that is who we really are.

Think of the millions of people in this Country who never have the need or desire to use a gun. Of the millions who live with lives with peace, tolerance, compassion - and great love. Of mothers and fathers holding their children, of those who weep, not only because of their own pain - but because of their ability to feel the pain of others.

Much needs to change in regards to gun laws. Much needs to change in regards to religion, pop culture... the media - and various other things.

Who we are though, by and large, in the grand scheme of things... the overwhelming majority of us, Mr. Pitt, are not this. You could have seen "us" marching yesterday in LA. You can see "us" at night clubs, at movie theaters, in schools and churches. You can see "us" everywhere you look. Everywhere you look, you can see us - the beauty and greatness that humanity has to offer. There are deeply flawed and hateful people - and likely always will be. However, Sir, that is not what or who we are. It is a sickness, a deep and poisonous rage, but it is not "us". It is what, in our love for each other, in courage and kindness and empathy... we must struggle to overcome. It is not something that is ever truly won or lost, but a constant vigilance.

The more important freedom, the more essential freedom, it seems to me... is that freedom to love one another, to lean on each other's shoulders when we must. To work together, bleed together, and cry together. To be part of this great and terrible thing we call humanity. When hate seems strongest, when violence is at it's most vicious... that is when those of us who believe otherwise, who indeed, ARE otherwise, must hold most tightly to love and acceptance. To a peace and understanding that embraces our fellow human beings.

If we are indeed to speak of we... then we... are far greater than what we saw, experienced, felt and suffered with yesterday. We are beings capable of great love, compassion, empathy... courage and kindness. The sum of what we are is not determined by the hateful actions of a vicious individual, but by those millions who live their lives with love.

Do not despair, do not give in to pessimism. I grieve with you, my Brother - but we are not so terrible as all that. We WILL make change. We WILL move the world forward and make it a better place - because that is not what we are. We must cling to our faith in each other, always, especially when it hurts the most. That... is courage - and greatness.

[liberal N proud]

51. The right to own a gun overrides the right to life

The gun groupies and their voice box, the NRA will make sure of that!

[niyad]

55. k and r

[Scruffy Rumbler]

56. WilliamPitt: Thank You

Your words are eloquent in their gross imagery of the results of our national disease of gun love.

"We are the Monster State. We stack the bodies and stroke the bullets until they are greasy with sweat. We are heroes, proud in the thunder of our guns, because this is freedom. "

[MadDAsHell]

57. It's because noone cares about gun violence anymore unless it occured during mass shooting.

Even the most strident gun-control advocates are almost completely silent between mass shootings, even though thousands more gun murders are occurring in those day-to-day one-at-a-time shootings than in these mass events.

Why? Politics of course.

It's much easier to blame the NRA at the time of the mass shootings, than it is to address the systemic issues that cause tens of thousands of more shootings in inner cities every year.

[lark]

58. That is indeed some folks version of freedom.

I'll take freedom to live any day. People in this country are just getting scarier and crazier all the time.

[FairWinds]

59. Guns do not keep us "free" any more than . .

they keep us safe.

Veteran For Peace

[Efilroft Sul]

60. America is a target-rich environment, and only the Second Amendment is safe. n/t