General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsCalling it a terror attack as opposed to a hate crime.
Calling it a terror attack allows a unified politicians' response. Rubio has been interviewed repeatedly, as of course has Gov Scott. If it were called a hate crime, what would rethugs' reaction be? It would show many of them for what they are.
Reports are that he was not particularly religious, but he was homophobic. And had anger management issues.
Terror attack definition: the calculated use of violence (or the threat of violence) against civilians in order to attain goals that are political or religious or ideological in nature.
On edit: this seems to be primarily a hate crime, but it's politically significant to call it terrorism.
Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)Actually, I think it was both
JudyM
(29,225 posts)Definition: the calculated use of violence (or the threat of violence) against civilians in order to attain goals that are political or religious or ideological in nature.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)This could very easily turn out to be BS.
JudyM
(29,225 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)Again, I assert that it is way too early to make these sorts of pronouncements.
Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)I can't imagine it makes much difference to the families of the dead.
6chars
(3,967 posts)tecelote
(5,122 posts)He was a nut.
No reason to attack another country.
Every reason to support gun control.
David__77
(23,369 posts)He was a Muslim who supported Islamic State.
There is a real, existing organization called Islamic State that wants to annihilate homosexuals.
As a gay man, this is of particular concern to me. I support the complete destruction of Islamic State and like Islamist organizations and the deportation/prohibition of entry of non-citizens who support the death penalty for homosexuality. I support the comprehensive attack against the ideology underlying these organizations.
patsimp
(915 posts)JudyM
(29,225 posts)ellenrr
(3,864 posts).
Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)Domestic terrorism
deathrind
(1,786 posts)patsimp
(915 posts)how many were killed? Was there a foreign power calling them to war?
And, yes, those Christian radicals should be in jail too.
I think it was a hate crime and he just used Islam to justify it. He wanted gay people to die so he looked at religion and thought ok, ill use this to convince myself im not a bad guy.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)What gave him the idea that anything was wrong with gay people?
FDR_Liberal
(41 posts)Maybe a family member of his touched him at a young age, maybe his friend was raped by a man or something i dont know, and for anyone to assume they know is kind of crazy. All we have to go off of is what happened and what we know for sure.
We know he targeted gay people. We know he had mental issues. We know he didnt like seeing men kissing. We know he said he aligned with isis. Ive also heard reports, not sure if its true, that he actually wasnt that religious.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)It's weird how you posit a lot of maybe's in your first paragraph, but in your second paragraph you write: "We know he didnt like seeing men kissing." I'm wondering how it is you can assert with confidence that "we know" that?
FDR_Liberal
(41 posts)I dont know anything, you know everything. It has to be the fault of Islam and Islam alone.
I said all those maybes because your asking me answer a question that no one currently knows the answer to. Im not one to assume fact, i can tell you like to but im good on that.
You have you're agenda to blame it on Islam and muslims, its real clear dude, ill let ya be hoss. Keep preaching hate in an attempt to create peace, that should work....smh
oberliner
(58,724 posts)I think you misunderstand entirely my post.
All I was saying is that we don't really know anything about this person or why he did what he did. Let's not jump to any conclusions based on incomplete information.
There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that this attack should be blamed on Islam and Muslims.
FDR_Liberal
(41 posts)"We dont really know anything about this person"...yet the post prior you make an assumption that it couldve been his ideology that caused him to do it. I say its a hate crime and have facts to back it up and you say, "no, you cant make assumptions, foul!"
I dont know what conclusion i jumped to... he targeted a gay bar, thats clear as day. Gay people tend to go to gay bars. Targeting a person based on their sexual orientation is a hate crime. Gay is a sexual orientation btw.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Pretty sure you and I are the only ones reading this exchange, so I am not sure what metaphorical dogs you think are being whistled to.
I presented a maybe, as you presented several maybes. You proposed a few ideas as to why you think this person may have committed this horrible crime. It is also maybe possible that he followed an ideology that preached homophobia.
People are not generally born hating homosexuals.
I hate having to explain to you different things. First you make an unfounded assumption that know one else is reading this, you have no way of knowing that notnto mention its irrelevant. When i say dog whistle, i mean youre trying to make a point with out saying the words exactly. Example. Obama got the urban vote (translation... obama only got black people to vote for him cause hes black).
When you talk ideology, its clear as day that you really are trying to say its Islam.
The tiniest % of muslims are radicalized.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)I don't wish to aggravate. I am just suggesting that he might've been taught homophobia from some influential figure in his life, such as a family member, a teacher, a religious figure, etc. Many of the horrible crimes committed against homosexuals over the years have been motivated by firebrand religious types preaching hate, so it is certainly possible that such teachings played a role. It's also entirely possibly that he was just an unhinged lunatic and heard voices or something along those lines.
King_David
(14,851 posts)That's fact.
Do you think there should be any tolerance or a pass to any culture or religion preaching violence against LGBTQ? - I think their should be Zero Tolerance.
6chars
(3,967 posts)jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Should we be going after the hate, or the "ideology":
http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.668796
6 Stabbed at Jerusalem Gay Pride Parade by ultra-Orthodox Jewish Assailant
As a non-participant in various "ideologies", please tell me the utility of knowing which of many species of gay-hating "ideology" may or may not have been involved.
King_David
(14,851 posts)Homophobia should not be given a pass to any culture.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)JudyM
(29,225 posts)yeoman6987
(14,449 posts)PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)JudyM
(29,225 posts)It seems he was claiming cover of ISIS to justify his homophobic violence.
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)Practicing or not, he was raised as an extremist.
JudyM
(29,225 posts)PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)You keep saying religious, I didn't.
JudyM
(29,225 posts)PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)And as recently was two days ago. So he was also religious, I'd argue.
JudyM
(29,225 posts)toward.
At this point it looks like religion-fueled aggression against gays. Still not looking like a jihad-type act, more of a personal hate crime fueled, as noted, by religion.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)What are you basing that on?
JudyM
(29,225 posts)religious, either.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Seems a little early in the investigation process to know what's what.
JudyM
(29,225 posts)nature of the terrorism moniker seems premature, if appropriate at all. We may learn differently, but at this point calling it terrorism detracts from the horror of this hate crime, which makes it more palatable for conservatives to speak out against, and more unifying for the media.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)It just seems that people tend to pick and choose which reports to emphasize and which ones to de-emphasize. I don't mean to direct that at you in particular, more a general observation of what I am reading in social media from various corners. My only assertion is that it is very possible that things that are being reported now may not turn out to be accurate.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)same, right? Extremists.
Texasgal
(17,042 posts)a hate crime?
JudyM
(29,225 posts)FBI definition: a criminal offense against a person or property motivated in whole or in part by an offender's bias against a race, religion, disability, sexual orientation, ethnicity, gender, or gender identity.
Not because of being American...
Texasgal
(17,042 posts)goes after?
Terrorism is HATE!
alarimer
(16,245 posts)It was also a hate crime on two levels (at least). It was Latino night at the club and many in the crowd were Latino. Maybe that was entirely coincidental, but perhaps not.
Miles Archer
(18,837 posts)This one's not going to be easily defined. It had elements of both.
malaise
(268,903 posts)and it was a gay night club.
MadBadger
(24,089 posts)mcar
(42,300 posts)And they are correct. KT was an act of terrorism and of hate.
JudyM
(29,225 posts)He has no affiliation with a foreign terrorist organization, according to CNN. Reports are that he wasn't religious. It looks much more like he justified the abominable hate crime by conveniently claiming the mantle of religion.
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)JudyM
(29,225 posts)He was hate-filled.
6chars
(3,967 posts)He pledges allegiance to a religous group that advocates what he did and calls for people like him to do what he did. Everyone else in the whole world, whatever their feelings, did not do what he did and what that religious group advocates. What are the odds of that?
He probably believes the religion.
kysrsoze
(6,019 posts)TheFrenchRazor
(2,116 posts)MadBadger
(24,089 posts)JudyM
(29,225 posts)a bunch of LGBTs because you were offended by their kissing wouldn't you claim it was because of your religion?
That is what happens all the time with violence by the "Right"... That is how they justify oppressive laws, as well.
Cayenne
(480 posts)Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)deathrind
(1,786 posts)One follows the other.
JudyM
(29,225 posts)Rex
(65,616 posts)So I think it is terrorism and a hate crime.
JudyM
(29,225 posts)to cause terror.
Rex
(65,616 posts)(kill gay people). Check. Sounds just like a terrorist. Question, is all terrorism political?
6chars
(3,967 posts)I don't understand the need to prove that this is not terrorism. It's not like we need to worry about hurting the terrorists' feelings, or this particular killer.
JudyM
(29,225 posts)I do think that this was homophobia of the radical Islamic variety. But I agree that homophobia is hugely what happened. It was disgusting to read comments on news sites from gay haters of the more common american type, which show just how pervasive gay hate is. I am calling it that not homophobia because that is too gentle an euphemism. I hope all Americans will be shocked into realizing how horrible these attidues are and that the Muslim world is too. Too many lessons here, in this intersectionality of evil.
JudyM
(29,225 posts)annavictorious
(934 posts)still_one
(92,122 posts)braddy
(3,585 posts)ileus
(15,396 posts)Odin2005
(53,521 posts)justiceischeap
(14,040 posts)This was a very specific terror attack on the LGBTQ community, which also makes it a hate crime. It's terrific for the GOP to frame this solely as a terror attack, because they don't have to think or talk about their culpability in the whole massacre. Fomenting an environment, whether by words or deeds, that it's okay to hate or actively legislate against the LGBTQ community.
Thankfully, both President Obama and Hillary Clinton have acknowledged who this actually happened to. So has MSNBC, but many other media outlets are ignoring a very large aspect of the story--that this was the largest hate crime against a minority community in recent history-- and it's important to report that.
Rex
(65,616 posts)I don't think the OP gets it. To think there is only ONE kind of terrorism is to be uninformed imo.
There is narco-terrorism, issue oriented terrorism(of which this crime fall under imo), pathological terrorism, state terrorism...I am leaving off some, but there are more types as well.
justiceischeap
(14,040 posts)and what happened in Orlando, it was a very specific type of terrorism (domestic) and a hate crime. When one specifically targets a specific class of people in the US, that automatically makes it a Federal hate crime. All the boxes have been ticked on this attack. Mostly though, I think people are just comfortable not talking about the LGBTQ community because if we mention the victims of this crime, we have to pray for gay people, that's problematic for the entire GOP and for a lot of people in this country.
JudyM
(29,225 posts)of his homophobia, planted by his father and likely nourished by radical Islam. Why isn't there more discussion in the press about homophobia, more "investigative journalism" about it?
justiceischeap
(14,040 posts)are the ones effected by it.
JudyM
(29,225 posts)societal institutional thinking, mostly promoted by holier than thou-ness of religion, makes people feel it's ok to marginalized and even attack LGBTs.
JudyM
(29,225 posts)hay rick
(7,604 posts)All information that fits that narrative will be amplified. Here's a story that doesn't fit so well: http://www.mypalmbeachpost.com/news/news/omar-mateen-a-trail-of-dead-ends-and-contradiction/nrfL6/?3434&ecmp=newspaper_email##
From the article
Both Mateens father and a former colleague suggested one other motivation.
I never heard him refer to anybody who was black or gay as anything else but n-s and queers, said Daniel Gilroy, who worked with Mateen as a security guard for G4S, the worlds largest security company.
JudyM
(29,225 posts)Thank you for that link, hay rick.
David__77
(23,369 posts)Archie Bunker was a good example of a bigot. I think an awful lot of people are bigots without killing dozens of people with gunfire.
I do not understand this person as "foremost a bigot." I understand him now as foremost a killer.
JudyM
(29,225 posts)David__77
(23,369 posts)I don't think I would counter-pose those two concepts. That might be valid from a tactical/PR standpoint, I suppose.
JudyM
(29,225 posts)as me. Read if you care to...
David__77
(23,369 posts)I understand that "terrorism" is a word that people made up, just like any other word. That said, if this incident is not terrorism, then I cannot imagine that anything is terrorism. Was 9/11 a hate crime?
JudyM
(29,225 posts)this small branch.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)Hate crimes are by their very definition terrorism. Through use of violence, the perpetrators seek to terrify the targets of their hatred into subservience, docility, or invisibility.
w4rma
(31,700 posts)Both are attacks meant to scare people into acting differently than they would have.