OK ---tell me how to be concerned about Islam?

[trumad]

Seriously---tell this lefty what I need to do?

Tell me how I need to be concerned about some wacko who was born in America, raised in America, was front and center to American culture, was front and center to American racism, bigotry and homophobia---was front and center to religious groups blasting the LGBT community, Congress, asshole neighbors, assholes on the internets.....

Tell me how to be concerned about this American born wacko who all of a sudden announced his allegiance to another bunch of wacko's halfway around the world.

Seriously--- I need to know how to be concerned?

NOW---if you really want to talk about being concerned---well I am concerned that this American Born wacko was interviewed twice by the FBI regarding his current activities and his known desire to kill some people. I am concerned that he was still allowed under American gun laws to go out and buy an Assault Rifle. Yeah that concerns me---in the same way if some Fundy nut-job announced to his friends that he wanted to shoot up some Planned Parenthood building but was still allowed to purchase an assault rife------that concerns me to.

Right now my concern isn't over the religion of Islam---right now my concern is how easy it is for bad guys to buy weapons of Mass Destruction---yeah---to me, 50 (dead) of my fellow Orlando citizens is Mass Destruction.

[boston bean]

1. I think we should all be concerned how easy it is for ISIS to recruit westerners.

There is something happening there. They prey on the less religious, but aggrieved males. It works really well for them.

So, I guess actually acknowledging it would be a good start.

[trumad]

2. Recruit?

LOL---it appears the only thing they do is a great website. How the fuck you gonna stop American Born citizens from reading a website?

[boston bean]

4. Well, I don't think that ridicule is the way to go. But you seem comfortable with it.

It's not just about stopping someone from reading a website.

But I think you knew that.

[trumad]

6. I'm comfortable ridiculing idiots who shout Islam.

They are not very deep thinkers in mho.

[boston bean]

8. I think others may have to think a bit deeper as well.

On both sides.

Do not live in fear, but recognize the danger and discuss them sans the ridicule.

It is well documented how ISIS recruits westerners. I suggest you go read up on it. They use our culture against us, the good and the bad. They prey on less religious individuals, those who are aggrieved by society. They use religion to radicalize. Now, why might it be important to recognize this? Well, because there are ways to combat this. It takes a message to defeat one.

Also, it helps us to understand who might fall prey to this. What/who to be on the watch for. How to thwart this.

But maybe that is just too much to think about for some.

[MariaThinks]

37. Not sure why you are LOL. You asked a question, people are polite enought to answer

[Ms. Yertle]

3. In both this case and the San Bernardino shooting

There were people who were legitimately concerned about the individuals who ended up being mass murderers.

The SB shooter's neighbor was concerned about being labelled Islamophobic.

The Orlando shooter's co-workers reported threatening comments to their employer, who was concerned about being labelled Islamophobic.

Maybe we need to be less concerned about Islam, and the Islamophobic label, and more concerned about threatening comments.

[trumad]

5. Bingo---and that's my point.

I don't care what religion or ideology you believe in---you make threats, you get investigated by the FBI--- that's strike 3 in mho.

[Ms. Yertle]

7. +1

[geardaddy]

36. Bingo.

[ck4829]

11. Unfortunately, those two stories don't seem exactly genuine

Looking for their 15 minutes of fame, maybe?

This Mateen guy was watched, he was observed, there were red flags everywhere. Maybe authorities should have had a better job following up on it.

[Ms. Yertle]

13. I've never heard that

the stories don't seem genuine. Maybe, maybe not.

to deprive someone of their civil rights (including the 2nd Amendment) and/or for the police to harass them, there has to be a pretty substantial reason. I think openly making threats of mass murder would be a substantial reason. Traveling to SA, no so much.

[Bluenorthwest]

9. He was raised by radical Afghani parents, you leave that part out, Taliban supporting father and

that's not exactly front and center American culture and it makes you theory that he 'all of a sudden' became influenced by the very crap his own father taught seem less than fully supported by facts.

This is what the killer's father posted to the internet today: ""God will punish those involved in homosexuality," saying it's, "not an issue that humans should deal with."
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/orlando-shooting-omar-mateen-father-seddique-mateen-taliban-god-punish-gays/

So all of a sudden? Mainstream American culture? Not so much. Not at all in fact.

Neighbors and co-workers feared this man and complained to authorities but nothing was done. Why do you think that is?

[JudyM]

15. In a case like this the parent had a direct influence on instilling vicious homophobia.

IMO he should be deported --out of respect to the LGBT community and the families of the victims, and as a message to other would-be murderers. I'm aware there is no law that he violated that would justify this, I am relying only on equity principles.

We need laws against hate-mongering because it influences people's actions.

It is also at the root of our now fundamentally dysfunctional congress. We need to not elect not tea party-like idealogues.

[Bluenorthwest]

17. I'd be happy if DU would stop claiming this guy 'suddenly' picked up bigotry from nowhere

The denial is the problem. This bigot who says these things has been touted and lauded on DU, this OP claims the killer was typical American when in fact his father is a Taliban supporter who is very involved with all of that theology.

Note the silence when the father's horrible words are posted. 'But he's just an American kid!!!!'

[JudyM]

18. What you posted is important. Consider an OP!

[cwydro]

35. Thank you.

You said it better than I could.

[JudyM]

55. And the fact that the father was homophobic should be in huge headlines, instead of the continuous

blah blah blah about terrorism. Of course we get the importance of the terrorism investigation, but the fact is that the homophobia of the father should spawn far more discussion about homophobia and violence than it is. Terrorism is more comfortable to play on 24/7, and also more people are concerned about themselves than danger to a limited and still-outcast demographic.

[get the red out]

58. Great post

We need to come out of that denial.

[trumad]

19. Mainstream American culture?

It certainly helps.

[FLPanhandle]

29. +1

[Silver_Witch]

33. There are plenty of Christians who say the very same!

Look around. It is about hatred and judgement. Not one religion owns that. Bad people are bad people!

[PeaceNikki]

47. Yes, there are. And they are directly tied to and responsible for other attacks

like those on abortion providers and Planned Parenthood clinics.

[get the red out]

59. But it's ok to discuss that

To face Christian bigotry and call it out. But that doesn't mean we can't call any other religion out, or tiptoe around it all the time.

[MariaThinks]

38. those are important points.

[justiceischeap]

39. Let's not forget that our very own government fosters this type of attitude

toward the LGBTQ community. So, you can't leave out being influenced by our own government or by far right Christians that sound exactly like fundamentalist Islam.

To say it's "just" Islam is leaving out a large portion of daily influence of being an American.

[Shemp Howard]

10. What a good question!

I respectfully disagree with you on the gun issue. As I have posted elsewhere, if we could manage to ban most guns, I fear terrorists would just switch over to homemade bombs. A bomb in an enclosed space like a club, horrible.

But you nevertheless ask a great question. If a person agrees that he/she must be concerned over (radical) Islam, then what would the next step be?

Perhaps the next step would be to accept more fully the if-you-see-something-say-something strategy. Many people are uncomfortable with that strategy, as it can easily lead to the profiling of an entire group of people. But would it also help to limit these attacks? Maybe.

What a mess.

[CapnSteve]

48. Let's give it a try...

It is easy to get an AR15; it is very hard to get bomb-making materials. See, bomb makers do not have group like the NRA to protect them.

If we let reason into this debate, we can prevent this from happening again. Track the sales of AR15s like we do with fertilizer and fuel oil.

[Laha]

53. Couple things I disagree with in your reponse

First:

if we could manage to ban most guns, I fear terrorists would just switch over to homemade bombs

My response/question is: So what? So make them. Why would you just shrug your shoulders and dismiss the idea of trying just because they will be forced to switch to other options.

If they are forced to improvise explosives there are a number of ways they can be tracked. There is a higher chance the devices they use will not be as efficient, or fail entirely due to a lack of quality control.

Just off the top of my head those questions make me wonder why you consider your reason enough to dismiss attempts for stricter controls.(Obviously large scale bans won't happen quickly, or maybe even ever. But that's not a good reason to not try.)

Second:

Perhaps the next step would be to accept more fully the if-you-see-something-say-something strategy.

Apparently people did, and he was interviewed by authorities about his murderous tendencies. And then allowed to buy murder weapons.

Something is wrong with that system.

[malaise]

12. My concern is slightly different

I'm trying to make sense about the trifecta won by the American Right wing and ReTHUGs led by Don the Con . Planned Parenthood and now Gays and Latinos are attacked by two American-born losers and all three are not to be seen as hate crimes but as terrorism. Where I come from that's way too convenient.

And then Don the Con congratulates himself - and all his troubles from last week suddenly disappear - hang on there a minute and pardon my doubts about what's going on.

[Bluenorthwest]

14. Hate crimes and terrorism are not mutually exclusive. Calling people 'losers' is Trump like and

Trump does that to evade the truth as well.

[malaise]

23. When the terror attacks are suddenly against the victims of hate crimes from the

American RWs, everyone should pause and think long and hard.

[Fumesucker]

51. I've read the "L" word a lot on DU recently

Some posters are quite fond of it actually.

[JudyM]

31. Completely agree that the hate crime aspect is being conveniently blurred by the more "unifying"

and dramatic moniker of terrorism.

The fact that this particular incident of violence against LGBTs had the flavor of radical Islam does not mean it was not first and foremost the murder of LGBTs.. Islam is not the only source of hatred against gays... Fundamentalism of many colors, whether religious or political, fuels this like gasoline.

LGBT hate crimes are on the rise despite our increase in freedoms. That is a fact. But all these politicians who want to be in front of the camera are not comfortable talking about that, or they just don't care about it as much as they do about appearing strong against terrorism.

[davidthegnome]

16. One thing to consider...

Various religious practices, preachers, churches... sermons, what have you, promote the notion that if someone is LGBTQ... they are sinners. As a child, I once went to a Baptist church with a friend of mine... and I recall the Preacher's voice as if it were yesterday.

"The gay man... is no better than the common drunk! A sinner! God tells us to separate, and repent!" Blah, blah, blah.

It is not, in my opinion, Islam in particular. It is many, many world religions and pop cultures that tell us that certain things are wrong, because, uhm, God says so. Or a holy book says so. Or a book written, many hundreds of years ago and frequently translated throughout history... you get the idea.

I have met and known many of these people, who listen to sermons like this every week. I am sure that many of us here have. To argue with them tends to be a waste of time, to attempt to enlighten them, tends to be a waste of time. To suggest to them that perhaps there is more to the world than their black and white view of it...

It is true that most of them don't go out and shoot up nightclubs. That most of them do not commit mass murder. Nonetheless, there is a level of judgment, condemnation, hate - and bigotry, accepted, promoted, tolerated... and ultimately encouraged by various religions in particular. It is every time a Preacher, Priest, "holy person", whatever, suggests to us that some people are not as worthy to live as everyone else, that they are bad, sinful, that God damns them and hates them because of who they are.

Part of the change that has to happen, I think, is for people to start walking out of their churches when their Preachers go on a rant about how much God hates homosexuals. The notion that other lives and other people are equally worthy of respect, love, compassion and kindness... is what anyone who claims to believe in a loving, forgiving God, should be preaching.

Religious leaders around the world need to stand up and start talking about the changes that need to happen. If they wish to show that they are not liars, not petty tyrants, not ignorant buffoons, then it is time to promote love, peace - and acceptance. If they cannot do this, they demonstrate that they are indeed false in every sense of the word.

I left the Catholic church years ago, after walking out of a particularly damning sermon about hellfire, damnation, condemnation of people who were different. If I could have gotten away with it, I would have pissed in the holy water on my way out.

Religion IS part of the problem. It is not isolated to Islam, though. Plenty of homegrown American pricks - so called "Christians", are cheering what happened yesterday. We might ask them... what do they do when someone with a gun decides that they, or their particular religion... is evil and needs to be destroyed? That it's followers should be slaughtered because, well, one God or another says so.

I do not mean this post as offense against those who practice their religions with peace, tolerance and compassion - but against those sanctimonious, holier than thou jerks who encourage hate, ignorance and bigotry. We should condemn that - and those who practice such things, at every opportunity. Forget God damning them, let's do it ourselves by showing them how ignorant, irrelevant, and forgettable they are. We do this every time we love someone who is different from ourselves. This happens every time a Christian and a Muslim shake hands or embrace. This happens every time our kindness, compassion and courage overcomes petty fear and judgment.

I require no God, mythical or real, to tell me how to live my life, or how to behave. I have been blessed in that I have known great people, who have shown me the way. Some of them are indeed LGBTQ - and I have nothing but love, admiration - and respect for them.

If there is a hell, it should belong to those who sell it.

[trumad]

21. Wish I can rec your post

Excellent

[Laha]

54. Well said

Thank you

[philosslayer]

20. You don't need to be

This had nothing to do with Islam. It has everything to do with a psychotic homophobe with a gun.

[oberliner]

25. How does one become a homophobe?

Presumably, it isn't a genetic trait.

[Ace Rothstein]

26. Right...

Still in denial I see.

[frankieallen]

28. nothing to do with Islam???? are you serious?

[MariaThinks]

44. sadly, that's what people are trying to say.

my understanding of Islam is that practitioners believe:

1. homosexuals should be killed
2. apostates should be killed
3. only Islam is the true religion

am I wrong?

[Francis Booth]

42. Nothing to do with Islam? Riiiight. Keep up that pretense.

Any religion that teaches that homosexuals are sinners who should be killed is hopelessly mired in Dark Ages thinking. It needs to be called out and ridiculed loudly and regularly. To not do so is cowardly and the worst kind of PC nonsense.

[bdwker]

45. Wow

That's really something.

[David__77]

52. Of course it has to do with Islam.

The killer was a Muslim and pledged allegiance to the Islamic State. That doesn't mean all Muslims are supporters of these killings or even of execution of homosexuals under Islamic law, or even of imposition of Islamic law. I do think it involves Islam.

[csziggy]

22. We need to fight fundamentalism, not a particular religion

Christian fundamentalists have committed horrendous acts, so have fundamentalists of other religions (though they have done it in other countries). The Islamic people who are dangerous to our lives are fundamentalists, not mainstream believers of their religion.

Sure an Islamic speaker gave talked in Orlando about killing homosexuals - but numerous Christian fundamentalist preachers have said exactly the same thing in this country over and over again. We're lucky that their followers have only acted individually - but I would not be surprised if another Pulse massacre happened with a Christian fundy as the actor rather than an Islamic fundy.

I don't know the path forward but I was encouraged to see so many Muslims leaders come forward yesterday and denounce what happened in Orlando. I wish that many moderate Christian leaders would denounce fringe Christian preachers who advocate the same murderous ideas. Maybe they have - but they are just not covered in the media, the same way statements against Islamic violence are not covered in the media most of the time.

for the young lives lost this past weekend all over this gun worshiping country, not just those in Orlando.

[MariaThinks]

46. that's like using a bazooka to kill a mosquito.

[csziggy]

56. Frankly I'd rather nuke all religions but fundamentalism is abhorrent

No matter what religion it claims to follow. I've felt this way since the early 1960s when my fundamentalist Baptist preacher uncle told racist jokes and showed how little of the teachings of the Bible he really believed. If I have a negative opinion of religion, it came from that intolerant, narrow minded man.

IMO the key to fighting fundamentalism is education - not the biased, one sided instruction of religious based schools but solid, logical, science based education that encourages people to understand other ways of living.

[FLPanhandle]

24. "Right now my concern isn't over the religion of Islam"

I disagree. Your concern should be the religion of Islam and all religions that teach hate and intolerance of different beliefs & morals. This guy, though born in America, was raised in an Islamic environment. He learned hate from his religion, just like many Christian families here in America teach their children hate and intolerance.

This statement has two points "right now my concern is how easy it is for bad guys to buy weapons of Mass Destruction"

1) Bad guys - they were made bad and the Islamic religion was a major factor. That should concern you because bad guys will find a way no matter laws are made.

2) Yes, it is way too easy for bad guys to get guns.

I'm concerned about both and I don't care about the typical DU treating Islam with kid gloves. You should care about Islam and every other religion that teaches hate (which is most of them).

[aikoaiko]

27. I think using the terrorist watch list as NICS red flag would have more traction in congress...

...if there was more due process attached to it. Things like notification that you're on the list, why you are on the list, and a means to address why you shouldn't be on it, and all in a timely fashion.

When know that the FBI interviewed Mateen at least twice, but was he on the terrorist watch list? If not, then not even including the list in the NICS check would have helped.

[still_one]

30. I think you just addressed it in your OP pretty effectively

[Silver_Witch]

32. This^^^

And only this. We grew this man right here in America. He is us....he is our shame....he is our hate. And we allowed him too buy a gun!

And I weep!

[christx30]

34. He was born in America,

but he was raised by a guy that considers the Taliban to be his brothers. Your parents can have a huge impact on the type of person you turn out to be, for good or ill.

[niyad]

40. k and r

[jtuck004]

41. Someone posted a Thom Hartmann video a bit ago, where he discussed why we sanitize

our heroes.

Here, it seems like we vilify our villain, make him fit our preconceived notions of who we want to be most scared of at the time.

The only thing we have is an abusive 29 year old, apparently mentally unstable, who we trained to use guns and imprison people, do security work, etc. Lots of the kinds of behavior we have learned to ignore, until last night.

He made one phone call and, maybe, looked at some web sites,the sum total of his "religious extremism". But he was an abusive bigot long before that. Odd that this doesn't scare people more.

And, frankly, I would hate to guess how many people here have an FBI file, and may not even know it.

[IronLionZion]

43. Trump's supporters literally can't believe Americans can be diverse

it is very simple for them to tell simply by how someone looks or their name.

They will gladly answer the call of see something say something and not even a little bit concerned with being racist about reporting innocent people who are often not even Muslims or Middle Eastern at all. Many latinos and light-skinned african americans have been reported for looking suspiciously brown for example.

Trumpers' idiotic belief that their unqualified buffoon of a candidate even has a chance is because they think they know what kind of people vote. That's why they are so surprised when they lost the last 2 presidential elections to a dark skinned guy named Barack Hussein Obama.

On a related note they are also overestimating the misogyny and anti-Hillary sentiments in America. The hate is not as strong as they like to think.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

49. I'm still more terrified about President Donald Trump than I'll ever be about Islamic extremists.

That's not a joke.

If four hijacked airliners destroying buildings and killing 3,000 people didn't break us as a country, I'm really not afraid of what they'll bring.

But elect a proto-fascist with narcissistic personality disorder, zero experience and a legion of bigoted followers as President and I seriously am scared at what could come out of it.

[Turin_C3PO]

50. The issues for me are:

#1: RELIGIOUS FUNDAMENTALISM. At the moment here in the 21st century, Islamic fundamentalism is creating the most violent and malignant fundamentalists. Christians come in a far 2nd, their hatred being (for the most part) expressed in discriminatory laws and hateful speech. Both need to disappear but Islamic fundamentalism is the most pressing problem at the moment. How we get rid of it, I don't know. Education is probably the best solution.

#2: GUNS. We need to ban large magazines as well as semi-automatic weapons and make the background check more strenuous. People say these measure won't work. Well, maybe not, but we owe it to all gun violence victims to at least give it a try.

[m-lekktor]

60. I tend to lean towards this line of thinking as time goes on.

Somebody elsewhere on the internet made a similar rant that i read before i read this one and it kind of makes the most sense to me at this point!

I read your post yesterday, I hope you daughter is doing ok. This must be extra awful for you all since this happened in your town.

[trumad]

62. She's fine although the community is reeling....

[ileus]

61. Just live your life until you die...it's going to happen anyway.