General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsMass shootings motivated by religious extremism. Mass shootings motivated by mental illness.
Mass shootings motivated by racial hatred or bigotry. Mass shootings motivated by plain old anger.
If only--if only--there was some common thread among all these different mass shootings that we could address and have a discussion about. Something that--no matter the motive--we could all look at and examine and see if there's anything we could do that might lower the risk of future mass shootings. Something that every single mass shooting has.
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Oh well, I guess there's no common thread after all. Let's continue to only talk about religious extremism and nothing else when the mass shooting was motivated by religious extremism, or only talk about mental illness and nothing else when the shooter was mentally ill.
frazzled
(18,402 posts)Guns. And in particular, assault rifles. The motives may be diverse, but the means of accomplishment is the same.
Aurora
Sandy Hook
Charleston
San Bernardino
Orlando
etc.
Kelvin Mace
(17,469 posts)Religious extremism is a mental illness in my view. Actually, religion in general is delusional behaviour, but we are not allowed to say that without getting censured.
lapfog_1
(29,199 posts)you are being redundant... religious extremism = mental illness
Tommy_Carcetti
(43,181 posts)Ditto James Holmes and Jared Loughner and Sueng Hui Cho.
lapfog_1
(29,199 posts)There are many others.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)Religious extremism is a form of vacuous fuckwitery, but it is not mental illness.
treestar
(82,383 posts)and not just that, but a right in the law to have them. We could volunteer to put some limits on that right. So far we have a population that just doesn't want to do that and accept the mass shootings as the cost of the right.
Matrosov
(1,098 posts)Anyone willing to kill others is mentally ill. It doesn't matter if they're motivated by the voices in their head, by the belief they're pleasing their invisible friend in the sky, or the idea that killing members of a certain race will make the world a better place.
Tommy_Carcetti
(43,181 posts)That's not to minimize those that do, or address the underlying concept of insanity in murder, but the conversation cannot and should not be corralled into that one corner while ignoring the larger elephant in the room.
whatthehey
(3,660 posts)But it's not particularly useful unless you think mass shootings are worse than any other kind of mass killing. There's a reason for example that much has been made of Orlando as the nation's worst mass shooting not mass killing. It isn't even the worst mass killing in a nightclub in history.
Now it's surely true that guns are a particularly easy and particularly widespread tool used for mass killings. Just about any loon can point and pull a trigger. It's also true that, carefully and logically designed rather than emotional and aesthetic, restrictions on guns could make mass killings trickier to achieve and less common. But we'll achieve that better by being honest and worrying about the killing part first and foremost.
Tommy_Carcetti
(43,181 posts)While something like Oklahoma City proves a bomb if executed properly is certainly capable of inflicting mass casualties, the amount of time, effort and skill necessary to both construct the bomb and detonate it as desired makes it a far less favorable choice of someone who wants to kill a massive amount of people.
Guns have been and still are by far the most efficient and effective means of killing people. You simply can't minimize that reality.
whatthehey
(3,660 posts)And yet the people are still dead. So we have to ask ourselves what we really want. Do we want fewer dead people or fewer people dead because of a specific tool? Call me nuts but I'm on board with the dead part being the most important.
Now how do people get involuntarily dead the most? Guns it certainly is. Cheap handguns mostly not ugly black rifles that is, and a tiny tiny fraction in mass events. But a more salient question is why do they get dead the most? Gun ownership alone doesn't correlate very well with homicide rates internationally. Neither do restrictive gun laws. Would a massive, 2A busting gun control shift as in Australia reduce the homicide rate in the US? Almost certainly, but almost certainly not by very much. Just look at recent articles from RWNJ bugaboo Chicago, where 80% or so of both offenders and victims in homicides belong to the same 0.05% of the population. Would any reduction in gun availability reach this subgroup, when any machinist can knock one out of common steels in a few hours? Even if you found the guns they have, the US is awash with gunsmiths, before we even think of 3D printers. Why does this subgroup, duplicated across most of the nation (wherever data have been collected, the vast majority of shooting victims AND perpetrators are established criminals. Note please what the word majority means, and the difference from "all" Because they live a hopeless, desperate existence where poverty and lack of opportunity make the quick buck and possible quick death of crime an acceptable choice. Why is that? Now, in true Japanese TMS fashion, we get to the root cause. Because the US, like, not coincidentally, most of the industrialized nations with very high homicide rates regardless of gun proliferation or legality, we have a terrible social safety net, a massively unequal distribution of wealth and investment, education and healthcare. We have a large underclass of hopeless young men lured into violence and crime because they have no other option.
Solving that would get us approaching the homicide rates of more enlightened nations, even heavily and easily armed enlightened nations. Would it stop things like this weekend? Nope, but there are far more than 50 people killed every year. Magically getting rid of all guns? Even were it possible it wouldn't stop the root cause of most killings, or indeed any. The latest loon chose guns, because they are indeed easy and accessible. Gonzalez chose fire and killed many more. Kehoe chose dynamite and killed still more. McVeigh fertilizer bombs, Bin Laden planes. There will always be loons driven to kill because of some twisted ideology or other. They are a tiny minority of killings despite the publicity though. Guns don't cause any of those loons or drive any of those ideologies. They make it easier, and we should do what we can to redress that, but to expect it to make a huge dint in homicide rates is just Panglossean nonsense. Most people kill because they are desperate enough to choose a violent, murderous lifestyle. We need to fix that first. A much smaller number kill because they are pure and simple nuts. We can't fix that by making them choose another weapon.
Tommy_Carcetti
(43,181 posts)That's not to disrespect people who are stabled, poisoned, beaten or bombed to death, but if there's a chance to cut down on something that might reduce a good chunk of homicides, I'm not for burying my head in the sand or explaining away why we shouldn't try.
whatthehey
(3,660 posts)You are stopping at a proximal method and claiming it is a root cause. You don't fix a problem only asking one how and no whys. People kill with guns not because guns.
Tommy_Carcetti
(43,181 posts)If you don't think the prevalence of firearms and access thereto isn't at least a good part of the answer to that question, I don't know what to tell you.
whatthehey
(3,660 posts)Look at the ones with very stringent gun control and high homicide rates. Look at the reverse. There is one unifying factor in high murder rates and it's not guns or gun laws. It is the lack of a willingness to provide the underclass with a basically liveable, dignified alternative to crime.
Tommy_Carcetti
(43,181 posts)The US has one of highest standards of living in the entire world. The other countries that have a comparatively high standard of living all have far lower murder rates than us. They also have stricter gun control laws than we do.
While a measurable high standard of living is by no means an indication of an universally idyllic way of life for all citizens (every country in the world has its poor, disadvantaged and deprived, and we are certainly no exception), it still can be said that what you see as the root cause of violence is far less of an issue than it would be in a country with a far lower standard of living.
So why are you choosing to compare us with countries that have that low standard of living?
I understand your point--that violence is in part a reaction to perceived social injustice--but why move the goal posts in order to remove the gun issue out of the conversation?
whatthehey
(3,660 posts)It's what life is like for the poorest that drives crime, murder included. Canada has three times as many guns per capita than South Africa, as does Norway. We have ten times. Norway has the best social safety net, then Canada, then us, then South Africa. The best homicide rate goes in that order, not in lowest gun possession. It's not a goal post move and I've kept guns firmly in the conversation, but the correlation to crime rate is just not there for guns when you look at a decent sample. We are an outlier in both metrics among OECD nations, but it's how nations treat their poor that has predictive power, not how many guns there are. It's simply facile reasoning to look at a factor which shows very low correlation to a problem and then claim it's more important than factors which are strongly correlated.
AirmensMom
(14,642 posts)Same old shit about mental illness. Angry men with guns ...there's your common thread.
JudyM
(29,233 posts)AirmensMom
(14,642 posts)I would say it's always about hatred of something, not always religiously motivated and/or anti-LGBT. Still, the common thread is angry men and guns.