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Fri Jun 17, 2016, 03:43 AM

FBI Told Orlando Shooter's Wife Not to Tell US Media He Was Gay

In an interview with Brazilian TV, the ex-wife of Omar Mateen claimed the U.S. agency told her to keep quiet about his homosexuality.
The U.S. Federal Bureau of Investigation told the former wife of the Orlando shooter Omar Mateen, Sitora Yusufiy, not to speak of his homosexuality or the fact that she, his family and others believed he was gay, Yusufiy’s current fiance, Marco Dias, told a Brazilian TV channel in an interview.

Dias told the Brazilian television station SBT Brazil Tuesday that Yusufiy believed Mateen was gay and that his father called him gay several times in front of her. However, “the FBI asked her not to tell this to the American media.”

Since the attack, Mateen has been dubbed an “Islamic terrorist” by politicians, senior officials and commentators in the U.S. following reports he had pledged allegiance to the Islamic State group.

However, the idea that he could have been a closet-homosexual indicates that the Orlando shooting might have been a deeply felt and personal act of hate.

The FBI and law enforcement in the United States have so far been pursuing the “Islamist terrorism” angle and their alleged demand from Mateen’s ex-wife to keep mum about his homosexuality suggests they want to downplay the personal and self-hating nature of the attack in favor of the Islamic terrorism-related one.



http://www.telesurtv.net/english/news/FBI-Told-Orlando-Shooters-Wife-Not-to-Tell-US-Media-He-Was-Gay-20160616-0002.html

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Reply FBI Told Orlando Shooter's Wife Not to Tell US Media He Was Gay (Original post)
ellenrr Jun 2016 OP
Surya Gayatri Jun 2016 #1
CJCRANE Jun 2016 #2
Ilsa Jun 2016 #3
CJCRANE Jun 2016 #13
Ilsa Jun 2016 #75
librarylu Jun 2016 #77
Ilsa Jun 2016 #80
librarylu Jun 2016 #81
zentrum Jun 2016 #125
Ilsa Jun 2016 #132
King_David Jun 2016 #84
southmost Jun 2016 #118
King_David Jun 2016 #120
Aerows Jun 2016 #172
Ghost in the Machine Jun 2016 #122
King_David Jun 2016 #124
Ghost in the Machine Jun 2016 #131
King_David Jun 2016 #133
Ghost in the Machine Jun 2016 #142
King_David Jun 2016 #159
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Ash_F Jun 2016 #193
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Aerows Jun 2016 #143
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Response to ellenrr (Original post)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 03:50 AM

1. K & R. Thanks for posting.

 

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Response to ellenrr (Original post)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 04:04 AM

2. So he was gay and killed other gay people because of his religious beliefs.

That makes it worse.

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Response to CJCRANE (Reply #2)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 04:46 AM

3. And maybe because he was "crazy" with self-loathing, also

rootex in fundamentalist religious beliefs. As soon as the story about him being angry over seeing two men kissing was told, I thought Mateen's motivations were more personal than ISIS related.

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Response to Ilsa (Reply #3)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 05:23 AM

13. Their ideology and related ideologies are a factor. Otherwise you're blaming violence against gay

people...on gay people.

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Response to CJCRANE (Reply #13)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 09:10 AM

75. I'm not blaming violence on LGBT on LGBT. I'm blaming

his religious indoctrination that taught him that he was out of God's favor, or worthy of punishment, or whatever he was taught, because of how he was born. I believe his religious beliefs ruined him psychlogically.

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Response to Ilsa (Reply #75)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 09:16 AM

77. His father was "strict" apparently.

I'm wondering if Mateen was abused as a child. That might account for his early outbursts and more. All that anger has to go somewhere.

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Response to librarylu (Reply #77)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 09:33 AM

80. There's another thing I wonder if we're seeing pieces of,

but if I say something here, it'll just start another unintended misunderstanding because I even considered it.

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Response to Ilsa (Reply #80)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 09:37 AM

81. I hope you'll say it anyway.

Can you message me?

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Response to CJCRANE (Reply #13)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 10:43 PM

125. You're leaving out

…that he wouldn't admit he was gay. The issue is not that a gay man killed LGBT people—it's that he hated them because he hated his own impulses.

Which was created by his fundamentalist understanding of Islam. It would have been the same if he was a Rightwing Christian. The point is the suppression. Same in both religions—right wing Xtianity or its counterpart in Islam.

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Response to zentrum (Reply #125)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 11:12 PM

132. Sorry, I thought it was obvious.

I thought it was apparent that any extremist, fundamentalist religion could create poor self image to the point of self-loathing if that person didn't live up to the tenets or values of the oppressive religion. It wouldn't even have to be sexuality.

Thanks for clarifying the post.

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Response to Ilsa (Reply #3)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 05:52 PM

84. What's self loathing?

That's offensive

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Response to King_David (Reply #84)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 10:13 PM

118. especially when the loathing originates from society and religion

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Response to southmost (Reply #118)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 10:19 PM

120. Gay!

The chances are he wasn't even Gay but he definitely was an Islamic terrorist.

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Response to King_David (Reply #120)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 10:42 AM

172. Thank you.

 

Enough said.

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Response to King_David (Reply #84)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 10:21 PM

122. Do you actually NOT know the definition, or do you hold the belief that there AREN'T people in this

world who actually hate themselves for who/what they are??

Why, exactly, do you find the truth "offensive"?

If my 'sarcasm detector' is broken, please accept my apologies in advance. If not, please answer in detail... Thanks in advance...

Peace,

Ghost

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Response to Ghost in the Machine (Reply #122)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 10:28 PM

124. YOu think an Islamic terrorist who pledges allegiance to ISIS is less likely to massacre 50 Gays

Or a straight dude with 2 wives and no Male lovers ,whom a bunch of self anointed experts on Gays have decided is a self loathing homosexual ( because he had Grinder on his phone just like so many other straight, Gay killers) and cased out his targeted bar....

Pretty homophobic.....

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Response to King_David (Reply #124)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 11:05 PM

131. So you've already decided to follow whatever the M$M spews out, rather than waiting on more facts to

come out of an INVESTIGATION?? I have read accounts from survivors who said that they had seen him there numerous times. You can choose to believe that he was just casing the place out if you want to, you're entitled to your own beliefs/opinions.

I *know* a few very self-loathing, deeply closeted, homosexual *Christians*... one of them being a family member... so it isn't hard for ME to believe that there are some very self-loathing, deeply closeted, homosexual *Muslims*, too. People are not BORN Christian, Muslim or any other religion, they are indoctrinated into it, unlike being BORN homosexual.

We ALL know of some 'staight dudes' who had a wife, or multiple wives, who were actually gay. They were BIG Hollywood Stars, cast in 'macho man' roles, and had "marriages" arranged, and their sexual orientation hidden, by their agents, handlers or the Industry itself, just to save an actor's "image" or "reputation". It still goes on today, and it is damned SAD that a person can't be who they are, and even sadder that they think they can't love themselves for who they are and think they have to hide it.

"Pretty homophobic....." I hope you're not referring to me, because you would be so wrong that it's noy EVEN funny...

Peace,

Ghost

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Response to Ghost in the Machine (Reply #131)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 11:13 PM

133. Strange kind of "Gay" guy has his face on Grinder, visits openly a Gay bar, and takes his wife to a

Gay bar....sound like a closeted Gay guy?

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Response to King_David (Reply #133)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 12:11 AM

142. I'm straight and have been to gay bars, and ENJOYED it, so what's your point?

I'm sure that you have heard the term "beard" before, haven't you? Yes, he could still be closeted, no question about it. Just because he has "never been SEEN with a MAN" doesn't mean he has never BEEN with a MAN either, does it??

Think about this.... even some straight, married men & women, who are CHEATING, have never been SEEN with the other person because they ARRANGE IT that way. "We can't be SEEN leaving together, so wait about 15 - 20 minutes after I leave, and meet me at ______________ (fill in the blank) for a quickie".... Do you think a closeted gay man couldn't work the same thing out?? Just because you don't SEE it does NOT mean it doesn't HAPPEN.

I don't know where you are from, but I live in the South. We have a LOT of "closeted" gays & lesbians. I knew a gay man and a lesbian who were in the closet, but lived together and presented themselves as a married couple. They would go to a bar and each would pick out someone that they were interested in, then the guy would approach the woman and tell her "my wife is interested in you, and would like to have you go home with us. You will ONLY be with her, I will not be involved...", and the woman would do the same to the man that he chose. If everything worked out, they would all leave together, go to the couple's house, then go in seperate rooms with their "dates". They preferred to be perceived as a "kinky, partner swapping couple" rather than being "outed".

Now tell me some more....

Peace,

Ghost

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Response to Ghost in the Machine (Reply #142)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 06:54 AM

159. So many straight "experts " on the Gays .

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Response to King_David (Reply #159)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 07:35 AM

162. I'm so glad there are straight people

 

to tell me all about my experiences in life. I'd never know a damn thing about being gay if it wasn't for some of these straight resident experts telling me all about it.

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Response to Aerows (Reply #162)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 07:44 AM

163. I know , it's pretty weird..

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Response to Aerows (Reply #162)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 10:57 AM

174. Please show where ONE TIME told anyone about THEIR experiences in life. Just ONE example will do...

You can't?? That's right, because I could never know YOUR experiences,unless you told me. I spoke of MY experiences of being around gay friends, and THEIR experiences that they have told me about, along with some well known historical FACTS.

I, personally, don't care about your skin color, sexual orientation, Nationality or religion (as long as you don't try to shove your religion down my throat).... the ONLY thing that matters to me is if you are a decent human being, and try to help others any way you can, if you can.

This all started over a comment that sounded like someone didn't believe that there are self loathing homosexuals out there. I'm done responding to him though, because I think he is being purposely obtuse and obfuscating, like he's trying to bait someone into an argument. I'm not biting, though....

What are YOUR thoughts about the subject? I honestly want to know. Also, if I *have* said ANYTHING in my previous replies that was denigrating, wrong or homophobic, would you please point it out to me so I know what it is? IF I even did, I certainly didn't mean to. I am on your side, not against you...

Thank you, and Peace!

Ghost

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Response to Ghost in the Machine (Reply #174)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 10:59 AM

175. That was not directed at you.

 

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Response to Aerows (Reply #175)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 11:20 AM

179. Thank you, Aerows....

right back at you, my friend. I hope all is well with you and yours....

Peace,

Ghost

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Response to Ghost in the Machine (Reply #179)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 11:31 AM

180. You as well, my friend.

 

I think most of us need a

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Response to King_David (Reply #124)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 02:12 PM

193. Several people close to him are saying this. As well as...

several people who were not that close but still in contact.

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Response to King_David (Reply #124)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 02:14 PM

195. There was this too

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/news/orlando-shooter-omar-mateen-was-gay-former-classma/nrfwW/

"The classmate said that he, Mateen and other classmates would hang out, sometimes going to gay nightclubs, after classes at the Indian River Community College police academy. He said Mateen asked him out romantically."

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Response to Ash_F (Reply #195)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 02:16 PM

197. Any sexual partners come forward?

He had Grinder and was in Gay bars - with his wife.
Should be plenty come forward by now.

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Response to King_David (Reply #197)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 02:21 PM

200. I believe the person quoted is gay

Maybe he never had a sexual partner?

Maybe he did and they don't want to come forward. That is understandable.

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Response to Ash_F (Reply #200)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 02:26 PM

202. He had Grinder on his phone as do most straight killer murderers of Gay people

But if he used it for Gay reasons as all the heterosexual experts on homosexual behaviour are explaining to us Gays , well then it's used primarily as a hookup tool , for sex-- trust me , even if I am Gay I do know a little about Gay life .... Maybe not as much as the Straight 'experts' posting on this thread , but a little....

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Response to King_David (Reply #202)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 02:33 PM

203. It was gay men who knew him that have been giving the media these accounts

So there is no reason to get snarky with me about their perspective.

I understand that this has been a hard week for you, but sometimes the simplest answer is the right one and there is no sense in over-rationalizing it.

I can see that you feel that people are trying to to separate Islamic fundamentalism from this story, but I don't think most here think that way.

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Response to King_David (Reply #212)

Thu Jun 23, 2016, 11:01 AM

213. And he had a wife and child.

Either bisexual, or likely he was struggling between who was was and who he was told to be.

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Response to King_David (Reply #84)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 10:44 PM

127. Rachel Maddow had a guest on this evening who explained the issue beautifully.

He is a young gay Muslim raised in the Salafi/Wahabbi (fundy-crazy) tradition, who denied his orientation even to himself and was told, repeatedly, by "the religious experts" that more religion would cure those sorts of "problems." Getting closer to the religion resulted in his becoming more radicalized. He pulled away before he acted out, and he uses his example to make people understand the forces of these ultra-conservative "traditions."

It was a very good interview.

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Response to MADem (Reply #127)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 10:50 PM

130. If this guy was Gay he was hardly closeted,

He showed his face on Grinder ( a lot of non Muslim Gay guys won't even do that on a sleazy app)
He spent time openly in a Gay bar
He took his wife to a gay bar.

If he's gay does he sound closeted to you?

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Response to King_David (Reply #130)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 11:38 PM

138. You need to understand that the world of immigrants often does not intersect with larger society.

Mr. or Mrs. Abbas, newly arrived from Iraq or Afghanistan or where-ever, never mind the Siddiquie family, doesn't have "grinder" on their phone. They might not even read more than a minimum amount of English. If you ask them what "grinder" is, the missus will probably say it is a kitchen machine to pulverize spices.

When they watch television, they don't watch US programs. They get the dish and the special package, and watch programming that reflects their own culture and language. They are not stupid people--they know about "the gay" but they also "know" (these quotes are here for a reason, FWIW) that "the gay" are not allowed into Paradise, and ergo, no one who is Muslim is gay. Remember how everyone roared with laughter when that idiot Ahmadi Nejad, the former Prez of Iran, stood up with a straight face and told the UN there were no gay people in Iran? He truly believed it. His mind is constructed to believe that "gayness" is a temptation of the devil, or a result of western influence, or something that is a "weakness," or a "defect" or an illness--but it can be cured. Of course, gay people know full well that this is not the case.

See, this nightclub murderer didn't give a shit what the infidels (and yes, that is the correct term) thought, or knew--because they would never intersect with his religious life or his traditional family. He was NEVER going to bring any one of them home. He was on the DL and he made that clear, too, from what those who knew him in his "club" persona said.

What he said to his (obedient and traditional--and no, hijab is not mandated to be traditional or obedient) wife is what he said to his wife. She may not have liked his activities, but she wasn't in the catbird seat. He sold the home she lived in for a pittance a few months ago. He handled the money. He was "The Man" and what he says, goes. The oppression in traditional house holds -- and it sounds like he was raised in one of those -- is stultifying for women--they have no authority. They are made to believe that everything is "given" to them. They are not valued for their work. They have less status than a farm animal in traditional societies. It's criminal, really.

It's not always VISIBLE to the outside world, though. Those Muslim women neighbors who don't wave or say hello aren't "unfriendly" -- they're afraid. If they're seen talking to a strange man they'll be accused of being harlots. There will be consequences if they step wrong in some families. Not all--but some.

His wife, no matter how much she knew or didn't know, didn't run round the masjid or to their friends and neighbors and broadcast his musings, feelings or activities--hell, she probably rarely or never went to the mosque (it's a rather segregated activity even when women do attend).

And you can be damn-sure that HE didn't broadcast his conflicted feelings to his traditional community. As far as THEY are concerned--even if his parents and wife "knew" because they caught him with porn or whatever-- he was so far in the closet that he was huddled behind the winter coats, those boxes of old letters and photo albums, and the ice skates.

He didn't acknowledge the truth of his sexuality as part of his persona. He thought if he could get closer to God, it would go away.

Now, if you take that toxic Big Lie, and add to it a mental health issue or two that involved impulse control and an inability to manage anger, you've got a recipe for trouble. It's a recipe that these recruiters to the "holy cause" understand and exploit with great frequency. It's impossible to know if this guy was recruited, or he was a "self starter." What we do know is that his actions and impulses had deadly consequences.

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Response to MADem (Reply #138)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 12:18 AM

143. Don't ever tell a gay person what they need to understand

 

right off of the bat.

I'm quite sure we understand the shit out of it already before your straight self even got involved, and have the scars to prove it.

Isn't there a thread where you can go tell a latino or black person what they need to understand?

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Response to Aerows (Reply #143)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 01:36 AM

145. You need to understand Muslim culture.

This isn't about what "gay people" need to understand--it's what everyone needs to understand about the tension between homosexuality and (fundamental) Islam.

There are some "Jack Muslims" (they drink, they smoke, they don't pray five times a day, but they do sorta observe the holidays) who take a more modern view, but this guy and his family were not among that number.

You can ignore what I'm saying if you'd like, but I know Muslim culture, and I am confident that my assessment is accurate.

And there's no need to get surly, either.

I suggest you watch Maddow's show this evening--I can promise you that you will learn something from it.

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Response to MADem (Reply #145)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 07:45 AM

164. You seem to believe you are an expert on everything.

 


It's pretty damn arrogant to lecture a gay person on being gay for Christ's sake.

Maybe you can lecture me next on being a woman. I'm sure somebody on DU needs your wisdom on every subject under the sun, but fortunately, I've managed just fine without it.

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Response to Aerows (Reply #164)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 10:00 AM

166. I did not do that and you are telling an untruth when you make that claim.

I explained to EVERYONE in this conversation what many traditional Muslims believe about homosexuality. This isn't opinion, either--it's how very religious people think and believe.

You chose to put a chip on your shoulder and aim your ire at me--why, I am completely unclear. This is a tragic situation we are talking about. You getting all up in my face and refusing to engage on the issue of religious beliefs and traditions and stressors is just not purposeful or reasonable. You don't have to listen to me--listen to the Wahabbi kid Maddow had on her show last night. He hits the nail right on the head. You can ignore this all you want, you can make it all about me, you can pretend this, and other "nail that sticks up gets hammered down" issues that bump up against Islamic teachings will somehow magically disappear or cease to be an issue, but if you think that is going to make the stress on young Muslims who don't fit the preferred Islamic model go away, good luck with that. The way to deal with these things, not just in the Islamic community but in the larger community, is to TALK about it.

Obviously, I waste my time talking with you.

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Response to MADem (Reply #166)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 10:06 AM

167. I don't want to talk *that* much. n/t

 

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Response to MADem (Reply #138)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 07:00 AM

160. Every Gay person , no matter their language or culture

will find a Gay app without any help from the "missus".

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Response to King_David (Reply #160)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 10:09 AM

168. Or comments from the peanut gallery. n/t

 

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Response to King_David (Reply #160)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 10:41 AM

170. Way to miss the point I was making.

Entirely, too.

Not sure why, but whatever.

I'm not talking about a "gay app." What I said was his mother wouldn't know what it was, what it was for, or anything about it--not that he needed help finding it.

This murderer did not intersect his life in the greater American community--to include the gay community-- with his life in his traditional and conservative religious community, populated with many new immigrants (including his family) from Afghanistan and Pakistan. His traditional family and friends thought he had come out of his difficult and disruptive youth and was doing fine, because he could go out into the greater American community and "pass" in essence--he had a job in law enforcement and NO ACCENT. He was a "success story" to them--but all the while he was living a lie.

He didn't invite his PULSE pals over to the house to break fast during Ramadan, though, did he? He led two lives that were entirely incompatible with one another and could never be reconciled because the teachings of his religion wouldn't have it--he'd have to lose his culture, his family, his mother, siblings, everything, in order to live in a way that was comfortable to him--and all the while, his religion taught him that he could "solve his problem" (those quotes are purposeful) by simply becoming more religious in a "fundamental" (using the word in its original meaning) way. The closer he got to God, the more he'd "fit in" and not be troubled by 'disturbing' thoughts or feelings--that was the promise he was sold. The promise didn't pan out, though.

His very existence was bifurcated and INCOMPATIBLE, and on top of all that he had mental health challenges.

He was a time bomb. This is what Maddow's guest discussed. His analysis is valid and hones in on many issues that are news to Americans who haven't been raised in Muslim cultures that practice a fundamentalist version of Islam.

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Response to MADem (Reply #170)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 11:02 AM

176. It's easy to miss the points you make

 

because brevity isn't your style.

You often make excellent posts, but when you get in over your head in arguments, suddenly it just becomes dictionary vomit.

I'm guilty of encyclopedia vomit, so I understand.

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Response to MADem (Reply #127)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 02:22 PM

201. I think this makes the most sense.

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Response to Ilsa (Reply #3)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 10:11 PM

117. the terms self-loathing and self-hating are cop outs

those terms are victim-blaming
shifting the blame from the toxic homophobic from society and religion ...

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Response to southmost (Reply #117)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 10:20 PM

121. Yes

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Response to King_David (Reply #121)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 02:56 PM

204. If I may, when is a person not Gay, even if his behavior is homosexual? Thanks.

 

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Response to Eleanors38 (Reply #204)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 03:13 PM

205. what does that question mean ? nt

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Response to King_David (Reply #205)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 03:18 PM

206. Thank you.

 

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Response to Eleanors38 (Reply #206)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 03:30 PM

207. Bye

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Response to southmost (Reply #117)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 10:41 AM

171. Bam.

 

Knocked it out of the park!

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Response to Aerows (Reply #171)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 01:55 PM

188. If I may, when is a person not Gay, even if his behavior is homosexual? Thanks.

 

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Response to Eleanors38 (Reply #188)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 02:03 PM

190. I have no idea.

 

I've been a lesbian ever since I realized women were absolutely gorgeous, caused flutters in my stomach, and men were boring as hell.

Maybe somebody else could answer? I wish I could be more enlightening, but I sincerely cannot answer your question because I don't know.

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Response to Aerows (Reply #190)

Thu Jun 23, 2016, 11:12 AM

214. Love your first paragraph!

Me too!

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Response to Eleanors38 (Reply #188)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 04:29 PM

209. There is something called "situational homosexuality."

This is most common in tight situations such as prison, summer camp. and the military. There are also gay virgins as well (I saw your other distracting question). But, here is something for you to contemplate...can a gay person have heterosexual sex without being heterosexual or bisexual? If said gay person has hetero sex, do they "magically" become straight? So....

If I may, when is a person not straight, even if is his behavior heterosexual?

If you are really bored, I can also suggest you do a Google search on the term "bisexual."

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #209)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 04:46 PM

210. My questions were prompted by the debate over whether or not...

 

The Orlando killer was gay or not, and over the impact and meaning of "self-loathing." There seemed to be much disagreememt over terms, so I asked some basic questions. I think I will observe from a little further out, from now on. Thanks for your help!

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Response to Ilsa (Reply #3)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 11:13 PM

134. I agree, Ilsa

 

And, to the larger point, of course the Feds didn't want anything mentioned that would deviate from from the "Islamic Terrorist" line! I mean, where are the MIC's profits in that?

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Response to Night Watchman (Reply #134)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 01:57 PM

189. ^^^ This.

 

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Response to CJCRANE (Reply #2)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 05:06 AM

7. Yep, I believe he was pious and struggling with his self-identity.

Resulting in him becoming a mass murderer.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #7)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 05:30 AM

14. So what about the ideology? Or are self-loathing gay people the problem?

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Response to CJCRANE (Reply #14)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 06:28 AM

30. Ideology trumps self-loathing, imo.

Given that he went to the mosque regularly he kept building up, in my opinion, a hatred for himself and others (like him, in particular).

Like I said, he was pious, I think he really was involved with that ideology, to the point where he could not reconcile it.

Was it not a hate crime? Fuck no, it was.

Was it Islamic terrorism. Fuck yes. Of course.

Are there others out there like him? Most fucking likely.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #30)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 06:53 PM

99. Good post. +1

 

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #30)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 10:49 PM

129. Terror organizations count on disaffected young men to do the work they won't do.

http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow/watch/radical-islam-exploits-the-lost-and-angry-708027971565

The interview with Sohail Ahmed at the above link is VERY INSTRUCTIVE.


Self-hatred seen in some anti-gay hate crimes
Rachel Maddow looks at the role of self-hatred as a motivating factor in homophobia, even virulent, violent homophobia, and introduces Sohail Ahmed as a case where the dynamics of that self-hatred and Islamic extremism intersect.

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Response to CJCRANE (Reply #14)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 06:54 AM

38. Ideology creates the self-loathing

The internal conflict doesn't have to be homosexuality. What he he was taught/believed was in contradiction to what he was. In this case it was his orientation.

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Response to CJCRANE (Reply #14)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 09:15 AM

76. There is no group of people who are "the problem"

 


Deranged individuals do deranged things.

I find it fascinating that people need to lay blame at the feet of this "group" or that "group".

At the end of the day, there are lots of people in any sort of group you might name. They don't all run out and shoot people.

Looking for a "reason" why a deranged individual did a deranged thing is, ultimately, pointless. People are twisted in all sorts of ways. There have been killers of every creed and color and persuasion. The common denominator is that they have all had access to tools which amplified their sickness.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #76)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 07:58 PM

100. Seriously?

So it doesn't make sense to categorize "radical islamists" because there are deranged eskimo elderly women too?

That's the type of head-in-the-sand stuff that lets this stuff occur in the first place.

Islam is a problem. The religion itself is not necessarily any worse than christianity, but islam never went through an enlightenment phase after the dark ages where people learned to justify things are "metaphorical".

If you look at the percentage of people in first world countries that are in favor of strict sharia law, of death for homosexuals, of death for apostasy, of death for blasphemy, etc - we're talking tens of millions of people.

That is a REALLY big problem and the common thread is islam.

It's islam.

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Response to Corporate666 (Reply #100)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 08:14 PM

101. Then it is remarkably inefficient

 

Since 1.6 billion Muslims pretty much fail to kill anyone every dang day. Meanwhile, a much smaller number of Germans were able to pull off one of the greatest mass murders in modern history.

In fact, if you tote up the daily body count in the US, they are hardly a blip in the stats.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #101)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 01:32 PM

183. It's extremely efficient.

A propensity to murder in the name of their prophet is not the only thing that we get from islam.

We get homophobia. We get misogyny. We get backwards attitudes towards banking, eating, sex and law. It is not a small number of radical muslims who think sharia law would be a good thing. It's a shockingly large number.

Blaming the small number (in the USA) of crazed killings in the name of islam doesn't mean it's the only problem we face. It just happens to be the most visible and shocking.

In an effort to be politically correct and not to offend, we've failed to appropriately identify the actual problem and come up with reasonable and rational solutions for it.

Doing away with religion's protected status would be a good first step - but that would have to apply to all religions. Coddling people with irrational and, frankly, incredibly STUPID ideas doesn't help things.

And yes, all religions are made up of whacky and crazy ideas that are obviously false, but islam never went through the enlightenment phase that other religions did and thus it's still practiced largely in it's original form. So you get muslims doing in the name of islam what christians were doing in the name of christianity hundreds of years ago.

It most definitely is NOT the people. Muslims are not inherently violent by genetics. It's the social and religious structure that makes the violent ones that way - and that has got to change. And it won't be changed by just making it harder for everyone to get guns in the hope the super-aggressive violent ones will get caught up in the same net.

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Response to Corporate666 (Reply #183)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 01:40 PM

185. Oh bullshit

 

Was it Catholicism that caused IRA terrorists to commit mass murder?

Was it Protestant religious belief that causes Robert Dear and Eric Rudolph to go on their murderous sprees?

There are people with violent fantasies who will latch onto anything to engage in those fantasies.

I'm willing to bet that you do not know a single Muslim. I have never worked with or known any Muslim who would believe for one moment that the act of this twisted individual had anything to do with their religion, any more than Catholics would think the violent criminal activities of the IRA have anything to do with theirs.

I never once heard any sane person suggest Catholicism was to blame for mass murder commuted by radical Catholics. I suspect there are reasons for that

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #7)


Response to CJCRANE (Reply #2)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 05:41 AM

18. Some of the extremist groups teach that martyrdom during Ramadan cleanses all sins

 

So if you have a man attracted to the ISIL philosophy, raised in a culture where being gay is never acceptable and often treated as worthy of death, who is gay but wants to be faithful then he may have felt he was redeeming himself for his sins and ensuring his place in heaven.

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Response to Lee-Lee (Reply #18)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 07:00 AM

40. I don't think his plan was to be a martyr

Didn't he try to fool authorities by trying to blend in with his victims?

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Response to notadmblnd (Reply #40)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 07:01 AM

41. No he came out armed and shooting

 

That's how the one officer took a hit direct front and center to his helmet.

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Response to Lee-Lee (Reply #41)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 07:03 AM

42. I see. Thanks

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Response to Lee-Lee (Reply #18)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 07:33 AM

46. But Mateen...

never showed any fanatical interest in his religion according to his family. When the FBI investigated, it was reported, they found no evidence that would suggest Mateen was fanatical about Islam and no evidence he was connected with/followed fanatical groups through social media. When questioning him, the FBI noted that he had little knowledge about the groups/ties he claimed he had to co-workers. HOWEVER, if Mateen was a serious fanatical Muslim who wanted to commit a devastating act of terrorism on BEHALF of ISIS. Something so horrible in the annals of recent history, Mateen had a bigger, more prominent target....Disney World. To attack Disney World, possibly killing families, would have stuck terror into the heart and soul of the "Great Satan". It would have been the ultimate attack ISIS could hope for. Instead Mateen picked a gay bar he frequented. He enacted revenge in his sick mind. Mateen's calls to the media tying his cowardly act to ISIS was a CALCULATED plan to DIVERT/DISTRACT from his SECRET SHAME, that he was GAY....oh horror. Better to be tagged as a Muslim terrorist, than to be remembered as a sick "homosexual" filled with hate and self-loathing. And his plan has worked in some circles. Mateen knew that this would be picked up and HYPED into something far more serious than a HATE crime committed by another domestic wacko.

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Response to cynzke (Reply #46)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 07:55 AM

55. Lots of these types are very recent converts

 

The path to radicalization is often really short.

We had a case here in NC where a teen went from no religion to actually killing his neighbor to steal money to buy guns to commit an attack and plotting with extremists online (and luckily the FBI noted it and moved in) in a manner of a few months. Just a typical white, lower middle class teenager one day and devoted enough to jihad to kill his elderly neighbor to finance his plot the next.

Plus quite often these guys don't display any of this outwardly until it all goes down like this. The couple in San Bernadino didn't show any real signs either- until suddenly they did.

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Response to Lee-Lee (Reply #18)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 11:49 PM

139. This is true. Of course, it doesn't have to be what we think of as martyrdom.

But any kind of sacrifice and/or "good works" as well as charity gets you double credit in the Big Golden Book, basically.

The whole idea of "going out in a blaze of glory" is one that the radical recruiters have tried to shop--to some success, apparently.

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Response to CJCRANE (Reply #2)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 05:42 AM

20. I suspected such...

The father sounds like a borrow beating, shamer type.

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Response to CJCRANE (Reply #2)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 06:44 AM

34. He calls 911 then exchanges gunfire with police outside the club before entering

What did he say to 911 and how did contact with the police begin? He allegedly mentioned the Tsarnov brothers during that call -- if true then it seems he called 911 in Orlando with some kind of threat and police may have moved to subdue him.

Mateen was a person of interest for the FBI in 2013 and 2014, had contact with a suicide bomber, trained and licensed on firearms, pro-security guard since 2007, his father announced candidacy for President of Afghanistan... this doesn't sound like a sexual identity struggle.

In my reading, there is no evidence that he had sex with another man. He came to the club repeatedly before the shooting but only a couple of people talked to him. They said he was drunk and rude. That doesn't seem like a person who wants to get it on.

By his ex-wife's account, "he wasn't very religious."
http://heavy.com/news/2016/06/omar-mateen-pulse-orlando-florida-shooting-gunman-attack-name-photos-facebook-motive-terrorism/

If Mateen is either not gay or not religious (or both) then this whole theory about doing his motivation being internally conflicted about religion and sexuality falls apart.

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Response to GreatGazoo (Reply #34)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 08:28 AM

69. Iman From His Mosque Weighs In!

Read the article, not just the title, which refers to Mateen as a young child!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/13/orlando-imam-says-he-had-not-feared-omar-mateen-could-be-radical/

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Response to cynzke (Reply #69)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 01:43 AM

146. I don't think IMAN is a member of his mosque.

IMAN--Gorgeous Somali fashion model, wife of famous rock star David Bowie, who died recently.

IMAM--Religious leader responsible for the management of a masjid (mosque).

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Response to CJCRANE (Reply #2)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 09:18 PM

110. He needed to prove to his father and family that he wasn't gay!

Then he claimed he was ISIS to make his family proud. What we do to our children is horrible. I don't know why we can't love each other just a little.

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Response to kpola12 (Reply #110)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 10:18 PM

119. Crap

There's more chance that an Islamic radical who hates Gays would kill 50 Gays than a "Gay" dude who loathes himself .

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Response to King_David (Reply #119)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 01:50 PM

186. This evading the subject has gotten nearly comic

 

if this wasn't such a horrific tragedy.

Did you feel the need to go execute a bunch of people when you realized you were gay? Yeah, me neither.

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Response to Aerows (Reply #186)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 02:10 PM

192. It's really a frustrating conversation. nt

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Response to ellenrr (Original post)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 04:52 AM

4. why the hell would they do that?

 

what business does the FBI have in telling private citizens what to say to the media? and why in this case? I really don't understand.

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Response to tomp (Reply #4)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 05:03 AM

5. They wouldn't

 

There's a certain faction here that just needs this not to be about...you know. No source or story is too dubious for them as long as it pushes their theory.

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Response to melman (Reply #5)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 05:11 AM

11. Nah, I can see the strategy here.

Say you want to create a new web of Omar followers, believers, advocates, people who see him as a martyr, someone to celebrate. You wouldn't want an image of him as a struggling man struggling with a gay identity to get out.

That web of followers dwindles to nothing very quickly, and you lose the opportunity to track down more would-be advocates and people who would follow in his footsteps.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #11)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 05:30 AM

16. So it's all the fault of a self-loathing gay person?

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Response to CJCRANE (Reply #16)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 08:32 AM

70. Nah, if true...

...it's the FBI wanting to exploit the situation to grab potential suspects.

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Response to CJCRANE (Reply #16)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 05:56 PM

85. That's fucking offensive... And yet they continue....

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #11)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 08:14 AM

64. BUT, The FBI

FAILED to catch Mateen. So now the FBI is trying to catch other would be martyrs? They couldn't even stop Mateen.

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Response to cynzke (Reply #64)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 08:33 AM

71. Even more to the point.

There's no indication that the FBI extorted the ex BEFORE the massacre. They seem to be trying to exploit the AFTERMATH.

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Response to melman (Reply #5)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 07:06 AM

43. Actually they would

Actually they would
Always follow the money
Which gets more money in their budget?

A crazy gay?

Or a radical islamic terrorist?

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Response to Chuuku Davis (Reply #43)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 05:48 PM

82. The "terrorist" angle is much more profitable for the MIC

The more this happens over here, the more opportunity to go over there and "smoke em out."

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Response to tomp (Reply #4)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 05:05 AM

6. To play up the ISIS angle and make it all about the war on terror

Instead it turns out he was just a deeply troubled soul with a gun.

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Response to tomp (Reply #4)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 05:09 AM

9. Probably to use him in social media to track down advocates.

If there's a widespread consensus that he is/was gay, then his advocates will be minimal at best.

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Response to tomp (Reply #4)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 02:42 AM

155. to get more funding for the war on terror

 

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Response to ellenrr (Original post)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 05:07 AM

8. I want to believe....

Not.

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Response to ileus (Reply #8)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 05:59 PM

86. Many here are very willing to believe that rubbish. nt

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Response to King_David (Reply #86)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 10:46 AM

173. Or tiptoe around reality. n/t

 

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Response to ellenrr (Original post)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 05:10 AM

10. He was one sick piece of change..

Last edited Sat Jun 18, 2016, 12:51 AM - Edit history (1)

period!

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Response to ProudProgressiveNow (Reply #10)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 08:17 PM

105. Yep

 

It's amazing that people have this need to attribute what he did to whatever it is they fear and hate.

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Response to ProudProgressiveNow (Reply #10)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 11:07 AM

178. In a nutshell. n/t

 

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Response to ellenrr (Original post)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 05:12 AM

12. This doesn't make sense, on the surface, but my paranoid side sees more

 

Given the foreign source, this sounds like CIA psyops to undermine the propaganda value of the massacre for the terrorists. The message being, terrorists aren't holy warriors; they are self-hating closeted homosexuals.

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Response to Android3.14 (Reply #12)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 05:30 AM

15. Sounds like a good theory to me

doesn't make any less sense their entire religion.

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Response to Android3.14 (Reply #12)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 05:32 AM

17. I think it's worse to blame it on the gay community

rather than the ideology.

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Response to CJCRANE (Reply #17)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 05:43 AM

21. It's not the gay community.

It was his culture and background. He was probably shamed for most of his life by his family. They said he told people his father was always on his ass, that he couldn't do anything right. Couldn't get any approval.

It probably fueled his self hatred and self esteem, until he had a psychotic break.

And, I wouldn't put anything past the FBI.

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Response to CJCRANE (Reply #17)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 05:52 AM

23. What ideology?

The ideology of ISIS, AlQuaeda, or Hezbolla? He pledged support and alligience to all three, and their ideologies are entirely different...

Personally, I think this is more complex than simply blaming religion or sexual orientation.

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Response to Technodaoist (Reply #23)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 09:27 AM

79. Agreed

Or blaming the Internet. How about video games? Do they still blame video games?

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Response to librarylu (Reply #79)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 11:35 PM

137. Yeah, I blame video games

 

I grew up playing mario brothers and now Im a plumber?

coincidence?

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Response to CJCRANE (Reply #17)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 06:01 PM

88. It's homophobic as far as I'm concerned

Much better a crazy Gay dude than an Islamic fundamentalist gay hating bigoted vermin.

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Response to King_David (Reply #88)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 08:17 PM

104. It's homophobic bullshit.

The fact this tragedy was against GLBT and then people turn around and use homophobia, just shows how deeply ingrained it is in society; that and straight privilege, aka Heterosexism.

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #104)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 09:08 PM

108. It's pretty frustrating reading these threads

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Response to King_David (Reply #108)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 01:17 AM

144. Perhaps we aren't just being grateful.

What ever would we do if we did have all these people 'splainin' to us what is homophobic and what isn't?! Where ever would we be?! Perhaps we are all self-loathing?! Between shit like this "article", the constant "explaining" the need for codified homophobia with the blood donation laws, the "NO! It isn't that it's self-loathing/NRA/guns/Trump who are responsible" posts and the constant "he was a self loathing homo and I knew it!" self-congratulatory posts by people who know all about homosexuals and homophobia, it has been beyond frustrating; it is been down right anger-provoking!

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #144)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 07:30 AM

161. Everyone is an "expert" on closeted homosexuality here.

Anything at all to prove it wasn't some Gay hating Islamic terrorist who killed 49 people whom he thought were Gay.

Sickening.

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Response to King_David (Reply #161)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 07:47 AM

165. A bunch of people say they suspected it right away after it happened

So apparently that is people's assumption when there's a hate crime against gay people.

People are buying into it because it supports the stereotypes in their heads.

People believe this random woman, but assume there's a huge conspiracy theory the FBI is involved in. Random woman gets all the trust, and FBI must be lying.

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Response to CJCRANE (Reply #17)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 06:02 PM

89. +1

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Response to Android3.14 (Reply #12)


Response to ellenrr (Original post)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 05:42 AM

19. I don't believe her.

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Response to 4139 (Reply #19)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 05:50 AM

22. Yeah, I wouldn't believe anything that comes out of her mouth. She's just as guilty as he is.

She allowed this to happen, she enabled it, she didn't report it, she sat back and let it happen.

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Response to underahedgerow (Reply #22)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 06:03 AM

27. What are you talking about?

This is the ex-wife that is saying this, not his current wife. His ex-wife got out of dodge years ago. She didn't enable shit.

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Response to Dorian Gray (Reply #27)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 08:06 AM

60. Note the difficult terrain that is the path of claiming a man with multiple wifes and no male

 

lovers is super gay. He has an ex-wife and a current wife who is really his 'widow'. Crowded bench of women for Team Gay.
'Please keep the women in his life in order while we claim he was gay. He had a wife, got a divorce then got another wife, had a child. This along with his lack of same sex relationships proves he is gay. It also proves this about half of America, of course.

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #60)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 12:02 AM

141. The former governor of NJ had two wives, both beautiful and smart and kind women.

Then he finally admitted he was gay. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_McGreevey

Having wives doesn't mean you're not gay--often, if the wives are nice people, the difficulty in making the marriage work lies with the spouse who keeps swapping 'em out. His "crime" was his lack of honesty, but he felt his political career would suffer were he "out."

If you don't understand the attitude of Islam towards homosexualty, you can't understand the pressure this guy was under, on that score alone, if he identified closely with his "religious" persona.

Check the Maddow show linked elsewhere in this thread-- it really does explain many issues that people here just aren't appreciating. A young man from London discusses his radicalization in response to his attempts to become more religious to "cure" himself of something that isn't a disease.

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Response to 4139 (Reply #19)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 05:58 AM

26. This is the ex-wife speaking. Not the current wife.

 

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Response to Demit (Reply #26)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 06:50 AM

37. That's what I get for not reading thoroughly.

Still don't trust her though. Just on principal.... She's not going to smell right down the road either.

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Response to ellenrr (Original post)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 05:52 AM

24. Even if she's lying

This is completely believable for Comey's FBI.

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Response to ellenrr (Original post)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 06:09 AM

28. Ill bet they told her not to talk to the media at all.

She sounds like a very manipulative person.

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Response to yardwork (Reply #28)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 07:37 AM

47. Who is she manipulating?

 

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Response to Demit (Reply #47)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 07:54 AM

54. She made the choice to talk to media, even while saying the FBI told her not to. This is an active

 

choice, made in order to serve her own agenda. If she had no agenda, she'd not talk to the media at all. Most ex-spouses of mass killers do not take it upon themselves to do a press junket. She did.
Why do you think she did that? For the public good? Or for her own good?

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Response to ellenrr (Original post)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 06:12 AM

29. What does this tell you about the media?

It just confirms how corrupt they really are. I mean, their credibility to tell the truth seems to be getting worse and worse. We the people WANT THE TRUTH!!!.

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Response to SmittynMo (Reply #29)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 08:25 AM

68. She Gave An Interview To a Brazilian TV Station!

Hardly what we think of as mainstream media.

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Response to ellenrr (Original post)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 06:37 AM

31. This tidbit is from the current boyfriend of the shooters ex wife?



It could be true, but much as I might want to always be suspect of FBI motives, it just sounds a bit hinkey.

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Response to FailureToCommunicate (Reply #31)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 07:51 AM

51. We keep hearing from the shooter's wife, his ex-wife, his ex-wife's current boyfriend but what we

 

do not hear is a word about any boyfriend of the shooter. Funny thing for a 'gay man' that everyone 'knows is gay'.

Did he also have a mistress? That would make him even more gay, of course by DU standards. DU says 'Noting is more gay than a twice married man'.

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #51)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 08:05 AM

59. Regulars at the gay club reported seeing him often. He used gay dating apps.

 

He came on to a former classmate.

You seem to think people are making things up. But the reports are coming from people who knew him.

It's all here: http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/news/orlando-shooter-omar-mateen-was-gay-former-classma/nrfwW/

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Response to Demit (Reply #59)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 08:13 AM

63. A former classmate said Mateen cheered for 9-11 in class. Was that also gosple truth? Trump

 

repeated that rumor and most Democrats were appalled. Same level of authenticity as the 'former classmate' you cite here. Gossip without proof.

More than one criminal has used 'dating apps' to stalk and target victims. This man was doing exactly that, as 49 new graves tell us.

It's just a matter of fact. The use of those apps does not prove he was using them for fun. The actual evidence says he was targeting his victims.
Ali Brown also used dating apps to find his victims.
http://www.advocate.com/crime/2014/08/23/seattle-man-confesses-gay-couples-murder-vengeance-iraq-syria

The Orlando area has more than its share of unsolved murders of LGBT persons the last few years.

You probably never even heard of Ali Brown, nor of the other similar attacks on LGBT people and places. That does not mean they did not happen.

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #63)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 08:39 AM

72. How is killing 49 people in a club "actual evidence" that he was using dating apps to target them?

 

You want to discount every piece of information that people who knew him are giving, then you want to connect some very strange dots (his use of dating apps to unsolved LGBT murders).

I don't know what you are arguing so vociferously for, but...suit yourself.

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Response to Demit (Reply #72)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 10:03 PM

115. Where's the male lovers

We seen plenty of females in his life but no males.

Strange "Gay" dude , gets hookup apps but no hookup.

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Response to King_David (Reply #115)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 05:13 AM

156. Yes, by all accounts he was a strange dude.

 

He creeped out several men in the club over the course of the three years he was observed there. Reading what they said, I was reminded of Elliot Rodger, who wanted beautiful women and was frustrated that they didn't want him.

Look, I'm not the one being insistent on a single narrative here. I happen to believe he acted out of a collection of motives. I don't think that insisting he wasn't gay makes the case that he was a political terrorist any stronger. If insisting that he couldn't possibly have been gay and still in the closet works for you, fine. I'm just listening to what the people who did know him, & did interact with him, have said.

"Plenty of" females? The two wives, who both met him online when they went looking for a Muslim husband, and—?

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Response to Demit (Reply #59)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 06:08 PM

92. So what,

Not one person has come forward to say they had sexual relations with him ...

More likely Islamic fundamentalist than the extremely homophobic- self loathing Gay theory bullshit ?

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Response to King_David (Reply #92)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 09:45 PM

113. His past hookups may be among the first victims

 

And if they weren't, they're probably experiencing serious denial pressure right now. Can you imagine what it would be like to admit to yourself, then the world, that you were the gay sex partner of someone who later became a mass-murderer of gay people?

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Response to spud_demon (Reply #113)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 10:06 PM

116. It's fact the motive was Islamic Fundamentalist gay hating bigot...

But everyone is twisting into a pretzel to prove the motive was primarily a "self hating GAY male" because of course that's the only reason for hating Gays . If he shot and killed 50 straight people would he be a self hating heterosexual? Fuck that homophobia...

That's homophobic.....

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Response to King_David (Reply #116)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 12:01 AM

140. homophobia

 

It is clear that Mateen intended to leave the impression that he hated gays because of his religion. We know he was a murderer. Could he have also been a liar?

Bob Goldthwait had a theory that gay bashers (men who beat gay men) were gay themselves but in denial. Is that theory homophobic? I don't think so. If 10% of all people are naturally gay, it's likely that we'll have gay murderers among them. When a person spends a lot of time at a gay-oriented club, I have to consider that it could be true. Of course, it could have been part of a long, elaborate plan.

The bottom line is -- regardless of whether he was gay or straight, devout Muslim or not, he dealt with his issues by hurting innocent people. And that makes him an asshole.

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #51)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 06:05 PM

90. I doubt he was gay,

Not one lover ....

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Response to King_David (Reply #90)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 01:49 AM

149. Not yet..

Will you come back and say you were wrong if such a fact comes out?
Its very early in the investigation and it might be that if he had some affairs theres a chance that his partners would not want to admit it for obvious reasons..

I think its important to know because the whole right wing world is hoping that he was just an Islamic Terrorist looking to kill infidels...This scenario fits right int the middle of their speak against Obama and his left wing ideology/ desire to turn the U.S. into a Muslim Country.

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Response to busterbrown (Reply #149)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 06:51 AM

157. He was an Islamic terrorist

And it's not the right wing world - it's fact - and the homophobia in these threads is disgusting.

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Response to King_David (Reply #157)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 01:00 PM

182. He was a angry fucked up asshole...looking for some sort of sick attention..

By the way, any evidence of a direct link (communication going back and forth)..
He was a terrorist all right.. He was an American Terrorist.. Why can’t you get this?

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Response to ellenrr (Original post)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 06:38 AM

32. Its not one or the other - its BOTH. Why is that so hard for everyone to accept?


He was gay, he was also radicalized. The two conflicted with each other. He was at war with himself, and the radical side won out.

To prove himself as a radical, he targeted a gay club. Why is that so hard to just accept.

Add to that Daddy abuse -

I think his father tormented him and have no doubt he fostered the conflict within his son.

Perhaps his current wife also did so.

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Response to Justice (Reply #32)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 07:52 AM

52. Yep! Agree! Makes sense. n/t

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Response to Justice (Reply #32)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 08:46 AM

73. The FBI....

In their investigations in 2013 and 2014 found no evidence that Mateen was a radicalized Muslim. If Mateen was out to prove he was radical and hell bent on commiting an act of terrorism on BEHALF of ISIS or other groups, he had the ULTIMATE target within driving distance....DISNEY WORLD. Mateen was reportedly a bully, routinely beating up his ex-wife. If true, it is unlikely that his current wife would be tormenting him. Even as a child, the Imam of his church, stated Mateen was unruly and exhibited aggressive behavior.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/13/orlando-imam-says-he-had-not-feared-omar-mateen-could-be-radical/

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Response to ellenrr (Original post)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 06:43 AM

33. But

 

The standard propaganda is terrorism terrorism terrorism. I say bullshit bullshit bullshit.o he media and government are engaged in a massive propaganda campaign. In order to justify the mass survalence of our citizen we must make them believe they are being stalked by Muslim terrorist. Not RWNJ , not radicalized hate radio addicts. Not red neck Republican droids programed by the hate radio 24/7 to hate POC , LGBT , Mexican looking people or anyone who is not a White Anglo euro trash wanna be rich person.
This guy was a wanna be cop who was terrified , the exact opposite of a dedicated anarchist.

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Response to ellenrr (Original post)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 06:46 AM

35. If the FBI did thst

I think it would be to not stir up more gay haters.
Also , they need all the leads to connections about his terrorist sympathies ,so they wouldn't want the case labeled with only the gay hatred reason.

You can tell the ex-wife wants to say "gay",but is restraining herself.

I don't think this story is unbelievable,and I don't blame the FBI.

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Response to ellenrr (Original post)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 06:47 AM

36. Seems the FBI is STILL run by Republicans....

 

Obama should have cleaned up the remnants of the Cheney Administration on day one.

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Response to ellenrr (Original post)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 06:57 AM

39. I call bullshit

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Response to Stinky The Clown (Reply #39)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 06:10 PM

94. Absolute horse crap....

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Response to ellenrr (Original post)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 07:17 AM

44. If FBI told her, she didn't listen.

She did tell US media his father called him gay.

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Response to LisaL (Reply #44)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 07:43 AM

49. That's why this has to BS

She's been on TV multiple times already talking about this

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Response to ellenrr (Original post)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 07:31 AM

45. The people who bought the crap pushed by his bigoted father now buy this obvious bullshit.

 

Why would the FBI tell her such a thing? She and his family are complicit. Accomplices attempting to take the heat off of their own motives.

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #45)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 07:41 AM

48. How is the woman who divorced him in 2009 complicit?

 

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Response to Demit (Reply #48)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 07:44 AM

50. Oh so this is the 'gay man's' FIRST wife, not his current wife?

 

Has anyone asked the 'gay man's' mistress what she thought?

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #50)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 07:55 AM

56. Pretty much what the 'ex' in ex-wife means, yes.

 

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Response to Demit (Reply #56)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 08:02 AM

57. Yes, and 'ex wife and current wife' means he was married two times to a woman, this oh so very

 

gay man. This is why I asked about his mistress, or mistresses. No one has mentioned any boyfriend other than the boyfriend of the ex-wife who is not the current wife because that's what 'ex' means.

He had a high percentage of female spouses for a gay man.....

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #57)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 08:11 AM

62. Are you serious?

 

Do you seriously believe that being married to a woman (one for three months) is proof that a man is straight?

Or that a man must be in a relationship to be gay?

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Response to Demit (Reply #62)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 08:17 AM

66. You are presenting his two wives and no boyfriends as proof he is gay. That's delusional.

 

You have no evidence at all. None. It's your own bias that causes you to believe that you have evidence when there is none.

My post is making fun of your post. His ex-wife, his current wife, his widow and their current hetrosexual partners are cited, but not one man who had dated the alleged 'gay man'.

Where is you actual evidence other than you own need to construct a narrative that says 'Religion is great, gays are terrible'?

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #66)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 09:05 AM

74. Since We Know...

that homosexuality EXISTS in Muslim countries because they kill gays, it is NOT out of the realm of POSSIBILITY that Mateen might have had sexual encounters with other gay MUSLIMS here in the US. These gay men would hardly be exposing themselves to their families by coming out now singing "Its raining men, hallelujah".

http://america.aljazeera.com/watch/shows/america-tonight/articles/2014/7/3/coming-out-gay-andmusliminamerica.html

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #66)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 06:12 PM

95. It's offensive..

And homophobic....

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #66)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 01:53 PM

187. Bingo. n/t

 

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #66)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 02:20 PM

198. Is it possible to be Gay, yet have no boyfriends?

 

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Response to Demit (Reply #48)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 08:03 AM

58. Anything to maintain a specific narrative. n/t

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #45)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 08:10 AM

61. I don't know why people believe everything the family says but think the FBI has to be lying

Although conspiracy theories are sometimes a thing there and it fits in with that I guess.

The only reason I can see the FBI saying anything like that would be if they thought his relationships were irrelevant and they didn't want to stir up more homophobic hate crimes.

But the most likely explanation is simply that they're lying to deflect blame.

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Response to ellenrr (Original post)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 08:16 AM

65. ISIS would never accept a gay man in their ranks. They won't take credit for the attack.

FBI has to fabricate any "ties," no matter how fervently Mateen believed in jihad.

Why not? They fabricate so much about "Terrorism."

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Response to librechik (Reply #65)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 08:15 PM

102. ISIS claimed responsibility and "ownership" of Mateen's slaughter

 

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Response to ellenrr (Original post)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 08:21 AM

67. Is it at all possible...

Is it possible they might want to conceal he was gay so they could interview any potentially existing partners without them being "outed" as either gay or radical in a sense? If he was closeted, it might make sense anyone he might date would be also.

I'm grasping at straws as the devil's advocate. I know it's a stretch.

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Response to forgotmylogin (Reply #67)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 06:16 PM

96. In 2016 ? Really?

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Response to ellenrr (Original post)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 09:24 AM

78. While that may be true

The reasoning given by that "writer" is purely speculative fiction....

But people need their little conspiracy theories...

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Response to ellenrr (Original post)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 05:52 PM

83. Doubtful he was Gay. nt

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Response to ellenrr (Original post)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 06:00 PM

87. Wow. Looks like things are gonna get interesting.

Not that the FBI would ever compromise, entrap and use an unsuspecting anybody.

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Response to ellenrr (Original post)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 06:07 PM

91. If it's true..

I'm not sure how reliable the source is.

If it's true, it confirms my basic suspicion that the shooter as a closet homosexual who was very conflicted and that this entire massacre was first and foremost a hate crime by a not well man. It's been widely reported he had been frequenting the club for 3 years and was a regular user of gay websites / mobile apps.

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Response to ellenrr (Original post)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 06:10 PM

93. Shooters x wife did make mention of her suspecting shooter was gay in a very thinly veiled way.

Last edited Sat Jun 18, 2016, 12:20 AM - Edit history (1)

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/feds-add-orlando-gay-club-shooter%E2%80%99s-father-wife-to-no-fly-lists/ar-AAhdXeL?ocid=ansmsnnews11

Shooters current wife and the shooters father have been added to the no fly list.
Shooters x wife provided enough information about the shooters anger management issues in interview for most anybody who's brain fills in the blanks to know just what she was getting at.The interview w as in Sundays news.Logic dictates the shooters x wife was cautioned,not to speak to the media about any details pertaining to the shooter or his family and connections that may or may not have negative effects to the ongoing investigation as is procedure ,more-so in high profile cases.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/troubled-quiet-macho-angry-the-volatile-life-of-the-orlando-shooter/ar-AAhg2YS?li=BBnb7Kz

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Response to ellenrr (Original post)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 06:18 PM

97. There's nothing to substantiate her comment, but it would play into the ''terrorism" scenario.

 

Terrorism = Fear = more money for militarizing law enforcement .. more money for the security industry. It's always about the money.

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Response to ellenrr (Original post)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 06:40 PM

98. Stupid

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Response to libodem (Reply #98)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 08:16 PM

103. Absolutely. Must be a Muslim problem!

We all know that men don't have a violence problem, because we never hear about battered wives, girlfriends, etc. do we?

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Response to libodem (Reply #98)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 08:22 PM

106. +1

 

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Response to ellenrr (Original post)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 08:42 PM

107. I can't believe our FBI at the behest of

 

whomever gave them their marching orders to keep mum on Mateens gay leanings and to quiet Mateens ex-wife on this fact would do something like this. WAIT!!!!! Yes I can. Nevermind!!!!! A hattip to Roseanne Roseannadanna. I loved that character of Gilda Radner's.

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Response to ellenrr (Original post)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 09:15 PM

109. And we continue the circle of hate

 

Self hate and shame are what religion teaches. Step away from religion and be free!!!

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Response to ellenrr (Original post)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 09:19 PM

111. I could see the FBI asking her not to say anything

until they verified or as a blanket statement because of an ongoing investigation.

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Response to ellenrr (Original post)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 09:26 PM

112. I don't think he was gay.

According to his old school records, he was constantly in trouble, from the time he was little. Violent. Could not get along with other students. Kicked out of school after school. He sounds like a deeply disturbed person.

I'm not seeing the markers of a closeted gay man. I'm seeing something else - the kind of person who ends up murdering 49 people and grievously wounding 50 more. A crazed killer.

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Response to yardwork (Reply #112)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 09:57 PM

114. I don't think being a troubled teen negates closeted homosexual

It actually would make sense.

I don't think it takes dozens of trips to a gay bar over 3 years to plan a shooting, nor does it require him to get wasted while he is there.

I don't think someone who was really disgusted by two men kissing would spend so much time around gay people.

I don't think he would use gay dating apps if he wasn't gay.

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Response to ohnoyoudidnt (Reply #114)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 10:24 PM

123. Rubbish

Think it's more likely an Islamic terrorist ISIS supporter would massacre 50 Gays or a dude with 2 wives and not one male lover with Grinder on his phone ( probably to find victims ) that Somme "experts on gays" call a closeted homosexual.

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Response to King_David (Reply #123)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 10:44 PM

126. Okay. Where are his victims from the app.

And what is your explanation for
spending way more time at the bar than is needed to scope the place?

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Response to ohnoyoudidnt (Reply #126)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 10:47 PM

128. Most unsuccessful Gay dude I ever heard of ,

Has hookup apps but never got a hookup?

Bullshit

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Response to King_David (Reply #128)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 11:19 PM

136. That didn't answer either question

and we don't know yet if he hooked up or not. That still doesn't answee why a straight guy was using the ap

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Response to King_David (Reply #128)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 01:45 AM

148. His first wife says he was gay. So there's that.

I think he had been raised in a homophobic culture (both the Muslim part and the conservative US part) and it's quite possible he was self-loathing and hated other gay people.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #148)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 02:17 AM

150. She didn't even really say that

 

he was gay. She said:

“There were things he would do in his daily life that most straight men don’t do,” she said in a phone interview with TIME on Tuesday.

“He would take a long time in front of the mirror, he would often take pictures of himself, and he made little movements with his body that definitely made me question things,” she recalled. “It definitely popped up in my head whether he was totally straight.”

http://time.com/4369577/orlando-shooting-sitora-yusufiy-omar-mateen-gay/


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Response to melman (Reply #150)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 02:27 AM

152. She also said Mateen's father had called him gay several times in front of her,

according to her fiancé.

Also, a former classmate said Mateen had asked him out on a date "romantically."

http://www.smobserved.com/story/2016/06/17/news/gay-nightclub-shooters-ex-wife-says-fbi-instructed-her-not-to-tell-media-he-was-gay/1480.html

The FBI instructed the former wife of the Orlando shooter Omar Mateen, Sitora Yusufiy, not to speak of his homosexuality or the fact that she, his family and others believed he was gay, Yusufiy's current fiance, Marco Dias, told a Brazilian TV channel in an interview.

Dias told the Brazilian television station SBT Brazil Tuesday that Yusufiy believed Mateen was gay and that his father called him gay several times in front of her. However, "the FBI asked her not to tell this to the American media." Since the attack, Mateen has been dubbed an "Islamic terrorist" by politicians, senior officials and commentators in the U.S. following reports he had pledged allegiance to the Islamic State group. However, the idea that he could have been a closet-homosexual indicates that the Orlando shooting might have been a deeply felt and personal act of hate. The FBI and law enforcement in the United States have so far been pursuing the "Islamist terrorism" angle and their alleged demand from Mateen's ex-wife to keep mum about his homosexuality suggests they want to downplay the personal and self-hating nature of the attack in favor of the Islamic terrorism-related one.

Since his attack on the Pulse gay nightclub in Orlando, the developing narrative surrounding Mateen's life is that of a troubled human being who had a history of domestic violence, a struggle with his sexual orientation, as well as an inclination toward a radical version of Islam. However, in addition to recently pledging allegiance to the Islamic State group, Mateen had previously shown support for both al-Qaida and Hezbollah, who have radically different interpretations of Islam and are in fact bitter enemies. This suggests Mateen had an extremely shallow and confused understanding of Islam as he failed to comprehend the social and political differences between the diferent groups. Hezbollah are currently fighting against the Islamic State and other radical Sunni groups in Syria.

Yusufiy has told the media that her ex-husband started to emotionally and physically abuse her just months into their marriage. She said he exploded in anger and often beat her while also keeping her hostage, which led her family to "literally rescue" her from the abusive relationship and Mateen's mental instability. To add to this a former male classmate of Mateen said he had been asked out romantically by the mass shooter, who was reported to be a regular at the Pulse nightclub, having visited it more than a dozen times over the years.

SNIP

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/news/orlando-shooter-omar-mateen-was-gay-former-classma/nrfwW/

The classmate said that he, Mateen and other classmates would hang out, sometimes going to gay nightclubs, after classes at Indian River Community College police academy. One night, he said Mateen asked him if he was gay. He said no, because he wasn’t telling people he was gay at the time.

We went to a few gay bars with him, and I was not out at the time, so I declined his offer,” said the former classmate, who asked that his name not be used.

“He said, ‘Well if you were gay, you would be my type.’ I said OK and just went on with the night,” he said. “It was not anything too crazy, but I take that as a pick-up line.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #152)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 02:30 AM

153. That's her fiance that said that

 

Besides, to a homophobe like the father, 'gay' is an insult. It doesn't have to mean he actually was.

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Response to melman (Reply #153)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 02:32 AM

154. Yes, I had added that. I also pointed out that the report says that a former

classmate says Mateen had asked him out on a date "romantically."

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/news/orlando-shooter-omar-mateen-was-gay-former-classma/nrfwW/

The classmate said that he, Mateen and other classmates would hang out, sometimes going to gay nightclubs, after classes at Indian River Community College police academy. One night, he said Mateen asked him if he was gay. He said no, because he wasn’t telling people he was gay at the time.

We went to a few gay bars with him, and I was not out at the time, so I declined his offer,” said the former classmate, who asked that his name not be used.

“He said, ‘Well if you were gay, you would be my type.’ I said OK and just went on with the night,” he said. “It was not anything too crazy, but I take that as a pick-up line.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #154)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 11:39 AM

181. So do you also accept the story of the classmate who says Mateen cheered the 9-11 attacks?

 

Classmate said it. Apparently that makes it true. Or are the metrics different depending on the need to service narrative?

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #148)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 06:52 AM

158. So we been told by all the instant straight "experts" here.

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Response to King_David (Reply #158)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 01:39 PM

184. So did a college classmate who said Mateen

went with him and other students to gay bars and asked the classmate for a date.. The classmate denied being gay because he wasn't out yet and Mateen said if he were, he would be his "type."

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #184)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 02:09 PM

191. Cos this straight classmate had Gaydar. ?

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Response to King_David (Reply #191)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 02:12 PM

194. No, as I said, this gay classmate wasn't out yet. And he said Mateen

asked him on a date.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #194)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 02:14 PM

196. I'm sure he must have had plenty hookups having Grinder and being in Gay bars....

Where's all these sexual partners?

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Response to King_David (Reply #196)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 02:20 PM

199. Do you think if he had any they would be wanting to make that public now? n/t

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #148)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 11:05 AM

177. His first wife said lots of stereotypical crap and his second wife was yet another wife.....

 

There is zero evidence that he was gay. None. Gossip. A classmate said Mateen cheered for 9-11, Trump cited that and DU rejected it as horrible unsupported gossip but when it comes to this, gossip is sufficient to create absolute statements from Straights. All based on stuff said by random people.

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Response to ellenrr (Original post)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 11:18 PM

135. Homophobia kills.

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Response to ellenrr (Original post)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 01:45 AM

147. We don't know all there is to know about this man yet.

Whether he hooked-up with another man or not, we have no way of knowing.
If he never had a sexual relationship/encounter with any man, I doubt he is
the first gay man to die never having done so. The point is that he was
probably ambivalent about his sexuality.

What were his choices?

1) Tell his wife he is not heterosexual, that he is actually gay. Get a divorce.
Announce to his family (who are Muslims) and friends that he is gay, and incur
their wrath, rejection and shunning. His father does not seem "open-minded"
or progressive to me. Sadly, he did not have the courage to take these steps.

2) Live a dual life and a lie. Cover-up and, in the end, over-compensate with
hate-language against gay people.

The over-compensation went too far. He resolved his conundrum by claiming
that he was a fundamental Islamist, killed gay people for "his country", and
killed himself (suicide by cop) How many gay men or women commit suicide
because they feel hopeless -- rejected by society or themselves?

He was neither gay nor straight, but somewhere in a hellishly confusing middle-
ground.
He was definitely an angry, violent person. I don't have any sympathy for him or
why he did what he did. I see him as a tortured, miserable, violent human being
who chose to do something heinous as a way to solve his dilemma (ego-dystonic
homosexual feelings) and he used religion to justify and rationalize his actions.

If self-loathing of sexual feelings can not be the sole explanation, then neither can
Fundamental Islamism. There are many issues contributing here. Tortured psyche
is one.



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Response to ellenrr (Original post)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 02:19 AM

151. Is Hoover still running the FBI?

because its wayyyy behind the times.
I think it was the thing most Americans thought of because of where it was.
First thing I thought, i bet this guy is gay.....truth will out.
Sorry FBI.

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Response to ellenrr (Original post)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 10:17 AM

169. This FBI has had so many missed opportunities.

People keep sending them evidence of wrong-doing and they keep ignoring it. it's like they are working from an antiquated mental framework and if the evidence doesn't fit into their framework, the information just falls into a blackhole.

I get the feeling that they thought that the fact the shooter was gay would only dilute the real agenda they wanted to push. As in, along the lines of Muslim terrorist, which would have pleased the Republicans and Donald Trump.

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Response to ellenrr (Original post)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 04:16 PM

208. One thing

we know for certain. He called 911 and claimed allegiance to ISIS. For me, that is the end of the story. Whatever else he might have been, in the end, he was a Islamic terrorist. That's not someones speculation, that is how he labeled himself, that is how he wanted to be remembered.

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