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Photographer

(1,142 posts)
Tue Jun 21, 2016, 02:51 PM Jun 2016

Before European Christians Forced Gender Roles, Native Americans Acknowledged 5 Genders

Felt this might be appropriate to GD in light of the Orlando tragedy and the reprehensible reactions of some evangelical pastors toward the LGBTQ community.

http://bipartisanreport.com/2016/06/19/before-european-christians-forced-gender-roles-native-americans-acknowledged-5-genders/

It wasn’t until Europeans took over North America that natives adopted the ideas of gender roles. For Native Americans, there was no set of rules that men and women had to abide by in order to be considered a “normal” member of their tribe.

In fact, people who had both female and male characteristics were viewed as gifted by nature, and therefore, able to see both sides of everything. According to Indian Country Today, all native communities acknowledged the following gender roles: “Female, male, Two Spirit female, Two Spirit male and Transgendered.”

“Each tribe has their own specific term, but there was a need for a universal term that the general population could understand. The Navajo refer to Two Spirits as Nádleehí (one who is transformed), among the Lakota is Winkté (indicative of a male who has a compulsion to behave as a female), Niizh Manidoowag (two spirit) in Ojibwe, Hemaneh (half man, half woman) in Cheyenne, to name a few. As the purpose of “Two Spirit” is to be used as a universal term in the English language, it is not always translatable with the same meaning in Native languages. For example, in the Iroquois Cherokee language, there is no way to translate the term, but the Cherokee do have gender variance terms for ‘women who feel like men’ and vice versa.”

The “Two Spirit” culture of Native Americans was one of the first things that Europeans worked to destroy and cover up. According to Brits like George Catlin, the Two Spirit tradition had to be eradicated before it could go into history books. Catlin said the tradition:

/snip

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Before European Christians Forced Gender Roles, Native Americans Acknowledged 5 Genders (Original Post) Photographer Jun 2016 OP
k and r with thanks for a most interesting and informative read. niyad Jun 2016 #1
I had read of this many years ago and was pleased to see it brought back up. Photographer Jun 2016 #7
I knew the thinking about 5 genders back when I was a teen. always made sense to me. niyad Jun 2016 #2
Thank you for this. peace13 Jun 2016 #3
There's many more than 5! maxsolomon Jun 2016 #4
Which is healthier, acceptance of individuals' variety of orientation, LWolf Jun 2016 #5
The people were valued... yellerpup Jun 2016 #11
most things fall somewhere on a spectrum, not just one end or the other passiveporcupine Jun 2016 #15
I've seen that for years. LWolf Jun 2016 #16
It also explains their behavior. roamer65 Jun 2016 #31
I first heard about "two spirit people" on local indie radio's "The Rainbow Minute" underpants Jun 2016 #6
It's normal behaviour. maindawg Jun 2016 #8
Squ*w and brave? geardaddy Jun 2016 #13
This is fascinating and so life-affirming AllyCat Jun 2016 #9
Small nitpick. MisterFred Jun 2016 #10
Thank you a la izquierda Jun 2016 #32
+1 geardaddy Jun 2016 #33
i learned about this in art school. mopinko Jun 2016 #12
I remember the character of Little Horse in "Little Big Man". Aristus Jun 2016 #14
"Don't take Bob Loblaw Jun 2016 #19
"He was a Bob Loblaw Jun 2016 #20
This article is filled with inaccuracies oberliner Jun 2016 #17
Hey, it's a single page internet piece not a term paper or Doctoral thesis Photographer Jun 2016 #21
Fair enough oberliner Jun 2016 #22
I don't believe the article claimed "all Native Americans." Photographer Jun 2016 #23
Yes, it does oberliner Jun 2016 #25
One should read the book ----------------------- turbinetree Jun 2016 #18
Will look for this. AllyCat Jun 2016 #24
This book is right to the point-------------- turbinetree Jun 2016 #26
your library should have a copy, or be able to get it through inter-library loan. niyad Jun 2016 #29
I agree with you. that one, and zinn's. but, of course, we cannot possibly learn the niyad Jun 2016 #30
Correct---------------------- turbinetree Jun 2016 #36
in one section of her book, she talks about how the catholic priests destroyed all niyad Jun 2016 #38
Yep------------------the priests out in region of California----------where really something else turbinetree Jun 2016 #40
Thanks. geardaddy Jun 2016 #34
Great-------------------I hope you enjoy the history like I do turbinetree Jun 2016 #37
Yet Europeans went back and forth on the Trans question One_Life_To_Give Jun 2016 #27
Good stuff, thanks for posting rufus dog Jun 2016 #28
Native Hawaiian and Polynesian culture yuiyoshida Jun 2016 #35
two-spirit niyad Jun 2016 #39
 

peace13

(11,076 posts)
3. Thank you for this.
Tue Jun 21, 2016, 03:00 PM
Jun 2016

Very interesting...and sad too. Somehow, I feel better for knowing this. I guess it's another way to look at the human spirit. Namaste.

LWolf

(46,179 posts)
5. Which is healthier, acceptance of individuals' variety of orientation,
Tue Jun 21, 2016, 03:10 PM
Jun 2016

or authoritarian demand for compliance with a narrow code?

Rhetorical question, of course.

The reality is that the European/xtian view of strict gender roles is deeply embedded in our culture these centuries later. As a woman, I've always seen it as a determination to support patriarchy; to maintain male dominance over female.

In Native American culture, people were valued for their contributions to the tribe, rather than for masculinity or femininity. Parents did not assign gender roles to children either, and even children’s clothing tended to be gender neutral. There were no ideas or ideals about how a person should love; it was simply a natural act that occurred without judgement or hesitation.


I don't know how accurate this article is. I do know that our country, and the world, would be better for letting go of gender bias, gender roles, and hatred.

yellerpup

(12,249 posts)
11. The people were valued...
Tue Jun 21, 2016, 04:28 PM
Jun 2016

The men who felt like women were very welcome to help with the women's work of farming partly due to their upper body strength, taller stature, and sometimes creativity. Women who felt like men were appreciated if they were good at hunting or attracting game, or were fast runners, or showed steadfast courage in battle. We always were most democratic of people.

passiveporcupine

(8,175 posts)
15. most things fall somewhere on a spectrum, not just one end or the other
Tue Jun 21, 2016, 05:15 PM
Jun 2016

Most educated people understand and accept this. But conservative people want to see everything in black and white, exact opposites, no ambiguity. Life for them is either safe or dangerous.

Irrefutable positions are safe, they've been taught how to react.

Nuance scares and frustrates them. They have to think too hard. They aren't comfortable with obscure or imprecise answers.

It's why conservatives tend to, not only be religious, but also be more rigid in their religious beliefs...often literal translation of the Bible (but boy can that be confusing, so they go with what their church tells them to believe). Their god is responsible for everything, taking them off the hook for all those things they'd have to make decisions about on their own.


LWolf

(46,179 posts)
16. I've seen that for years.
Tue Jun 21, 2016, 05:18 PM
Jun 2016

I was raised without church; attended for a bit in high school, when some new friends were shocked, and did their best to "save" me. It didn't stick; what you point out and more became immediately obvious.

roamer65

(36,739 posts)
31. It also explains their behavior.
Tue Jun 21, 2016, 10:08 PM
Jun 2016

They become increasingly violent in order to keep their narrow constructs "pure and unaltered". They will do it to the point of outright genocide. That has been proven over and over again through human history.

underpants

(182,279 posts)
6. I first heard about "two spirit people" on local indie radio's "The Rainbow Minute"
Tue Jun 21, 2016, 03:11 PM
Jun 2016
http://wrir.org/

It's a 1 minute production that airs right before Democracy Now.
 

maindawg

(1,151 posts)
8. It's normal behaviour.
Tue Jun 21, 2016, 03:55 PM
Jun 2016

When Lewis and Clark journey camped with the Blackfoot and Hidatsa tribes their very first winter they wrote in their journals that there were braves who lived as squaws , with another brave , dressed and carried the role and that was considered normal as no one objected. The native Americans attitude concerning sex was very casual. They considered sex a natural thing you did. There were no rules. They did not have a word for prostitution and traded for sex all the time.
Maybe we should them , and concentrate on things that matter. Things we can control. Instead of some rules based on shadowy notions and silly superstitions.

MisterFred

(525 posts)
10. Small nitpick.
Tue Jun 21, 2016, 04:25 PM
Jun 2016

The article writes of Native Americans as if they're one culture, not many. The traditions of one tribe often had little to do with another, especially across language groups. Even within language groups, Aztecs did not share much common culture with Utes...

mopinko

(69,806 posts)
12. i learned about this in art school.
Tue Jun 21, 2016, 04:44 PM
Jun 2016

took a history of ceramics class, which looked at a different culture for each class.
the lecture on native americans featured a man who lived as a woman. ze was a most revered potter. i believe the person was hopi, or anasazi.
there are pictures extant of this person and their work. very nice work, too.
the point that was made was that ze had the best of both worlds. ze lived w the women, did women's work, but without the burden of children, ze was free to spend time perfecting their craft.

yes, wouldnt it be nice to live in a world where you could be who you are, and have sex if you wanted to, with whom you wanted to, or just not.

Aristus

(66,096 posts)
14. I remember the character of Little Horse in "Little Big Man".
Tue Jun 21, 2016, 05:06 PM
Jun 2016

He was teased as a child because he couldn't or wouldn't hunt. Then he grew up to be respected by his tribe as a talented singer and dancer, both of which are important religious gifts in First Nations tribes.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
17. This article is filled with inaccuracies
Tue Jun 21, 2016, 05:30 PM
Jun 2016

The author even misrepresents that information from the "Indian Country Today" website, which is apparently the extent of his knowledge on the subject (along with, perhaps, a google search).

Native Americans must love white people who think they can explain their culture.

 

Photographer

(1,142 posts)
21. Hey, it's a single page internet piece not a term paper or Doctoral thesis
Tue Jun 21, 2016, 06:21 PM
Jun 2016

There is a lot of information available on the subject and if this piece causes some to research it more, then, IMHO, the article has met its objective.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
22. Fair enough
Tue Jun 21, 2016, 06:30 PM
Jun 2016

But the lead, that Native Americans acknowledged five genders, is not actually true.

The Indian Country Today article outlines the diversity of perspectives among various Native American groups in this regard.

There is no actual evidence provided that all Native American groups did, in fact, "acknowledge five genders".

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
25. Yes, it does
Tue Jun 21, 2016, 07:45 PM
Jun 2016

From the article:

According to Indian Country Today, all native communities acknowledged the following gender roles: “Female, male, Two Spirit female, Two Spirit male and Transgendered.”

This sentence is not true (in particular the bolded section), and the article in Indian Country Today does not make such a claim.

I do find it interesting to learn more about gender with respect to various Native American communities both historically and in modern times. I just don't think this particular article presents the information entirely accurately.

turbinetree

(24,632 posts)
18. One should read the book -----------------------
Tue Jun 21, 2016, 05:37 PM
Jun 2016

An Indigenous Peoples' History of the United States by Roxanne Dunbar-Ortiz

This book should be in every class room, in my opinion.

I would really like to meet this woman

turbinetree

(24,632 posts)
26. This book is right to the point--------------
Tue Jun 21, 2016, 07:48 PM
Jun 2016

Ortiz is just amazing------------------a small tidbit-------------

http://www.beacon.org/An-Indigenous-Peoples-History-of-the-United-States-P1164.aspx

Honk--------------------for a political revolution

niyad

(112,435 posts)
29. your library should have a copy, or be able to get it through inter-library loan.
Tue Jun 21, 2016, 09:21 PM
Jun 2016

I was astounded that the system in this oh-so-red county actually had it.

Just a note--it is an extremely difficult read--the subject matter, I mean. As much as people think they know about the genocide perpetrated on the indigenous peoples, it doesn't even come close to the reality.

niyad

(112,435 posts)
30. I agree with you. that one, and zinn's. but, of course, we cannot possibly learn the
Tue Jun 21, 2016, 09:24 PM
Jun 2016

truth about the european invaders in this hemisphere (the role of the church is just one example.)

turbinetree

(24,632 posts)
36. Correct----------------------
Wed Jun 22, 2016, 01:13 PM
Jun 2016

the church tries to distort what, why and how they were not complicit in this regard.


niyad

(112,435 posts)
38. in one section of her book, she talks about how the catholic priests destroyed all
Wed Jun 22, 2016, 01:19 PM
Jun 2016

the mayan records and information, because, of course, nothing could contradict the church. just imagine the knowledge that was lost. much like the library at alexandria (yes, I know, the church wasn't responsible for that one)

turbinetree

(24,632 posts)
40. Yep------------------the priests out in region of California----------where really something else
Wed Jun 22, 2016, 01:37 PM
Jun 2016

I had forgotten about the corporal punishment that the Eastern churches did to the Indigenous people, especially when the children from the tribe went back to there home on the reservations, they brought that corporal punishment back with them, and they started hitting there children, because in the Indigenous peoples philosophy they / we never hit there / our children

And the best example of this society failure in my opinion, all one as to do is look at the Pine Ridge Reservation---------------this reservation speaks volumes on what and how this country treats the Indigenous people and how it is reflected out toward the current society we live in----------------there is a link, in my opinion

One_Life_To_Give

(6,036 posts)
27. Yet Europeans went back and forth on the Trans question
Tue Jun 21, 2016, 08:54 PM
Jun 2016

Various times accepting it and other times oppressing it. As Clark and Sponsler describe it "The Two Gender System in Medieval Europe" is a modern fiction.

yuiyoshida

(41,764 posts)
35. Native Hawaiian and Polynesian culture
Wed Jun 22, 2016, 12:26 PM
Jun 2016

has something similar. I remember coming across this at one time, and thanks for reminding me of it! Mahalo!

niyad

(112,435 posts)
39. two-spirit
Wed Jun 22, 2016, 01:28 PM
Jun 2016

(some useful resource links at bottom)

Two-Spirit

"Berdache" redirects here. For the glaive polearm, see Bardiche.


Two-spirited marchers at San Francisco Pride 2014.







Two-Spirit (also two spirit or twospirit) is a modern umbrella term used by some indigenous North Americans to describe gender-variant individuals in their communities.[1] The term was adopted in 1990 at an Indigenous lesbian and gay international gathering to encourage the replacement of the anthropological term berdache.[2] It is a spiritual role that is recognized and confirmed by the Two-Spirit's indigenous community.[3] While some have found the term a useful tool for intertribal organizing, not all Native cultures conceptualize gender this way, and most tribes use names in their own languages.[2][4] While pan-Indian terms are not always appropriate or welcome, the term has generally received more acceptance and use than the term it replaced.[2]

Third and fourth gender roles traditionally embodied by two-spirit people include performing work and wearing clothing associated with both men and women. Not all tribes/nations have rigid gender roles, but, among those that do, some consider there to be at least four genders: feminine woman, masculine woman, feminine man, masculine man.[3] The presence of male-bodied two-spirits "was a fundamental institution among most tribal peoples"[5] and, according to Will Roscoe, both male- and female-bodied two-spirits have been documented "in over 130 North American tribes, in every region of the continent."[6]

Before the late twentieth-century, non-Native (i.e. non-Native American/Canadian) anthropologists used the generic term berdache /bərˈdæʃ/ to identify an indigenous individual fulfilling one of many mixed gender roles in their tribe, but that term has now fallen out of favor. Anthropologists primarily used it to identify feminine Native men. Its etymology, however, has meant that it is now considered outdated and potentially offensive: it derives from the French bardache (English equivalent: "bardash&quot meaning "passive homosexual", "catamite"[7] or even "male prostitute". Bardache, in turn, derived from the Persian برده barda meaning "captive", "prisoner of war", "slave".[8][9][10][11] Spanish explorers who encountered two-spirits among the Chumash people called them "joyas", the Spanish for "jewels".[12]

Use of berdache has generally been replaced by the self-chosen "two-spirit", which, in 1990, gained widespread popularity during the third annual intertribal Native American/First Nations gay and lesbian conference in Winnipeg.[13] Two-spirit is a pan-Indian term chosen to express the Native/First Nations' distinct approach to gender identity and variance in contrast to the imposed non-Native terms of berdache, "gay", "lesbian", and "trans"

. . .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-Spirit

http://www.dancingtoeaglespiritsociety.org/twospirit.php

http://www.nativepeoples.com/Native-Peoples/May-June-2014/Two-Spirit-The-Story-of-a-Movement-Unfolds/

http://nativeout.com/twospirit-rc/two-spirit-101/

http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/films/two-spirits/

http://twospirits.org/

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