When it comes to what's best for Black People, it's time for White People to mind their business

[bravenak]

Black folks are beginning to no longer center whiteness in their dress, speech and lifestyle choices. We are not biting our tongues when we disagree with our white cohorts. From protests against police brutality to sit-ins about curriculums taught at universities, black millennials are forcing those in power to address their concerns—and the backlash has been vocal and violent.

The rise of Donald Trump represents an unapologetic white supremacist response to movements like #BlackLivesMatter and the presidency of Barack Obama. The frustration that many white men and women feel with the declining significance of whiteness is what compels so many to subscribe to his brand of nationalism. Yet that is not the only place where white supremacy rears its ugly head. Even in progressive circles, the specter of white supremacy is present.

http://www.theroot.com/articles/culture/2016/06/when-it-comes-to-whats-best-for-black-folk-its-time-for-white-people-to-mind-their-business/

[Tarheel_Dem]

1. Preach!

[bravenak]

2. Hey!!

[yuiyoshida]

146. pssst...

[bravenak]

182. Heeyyy!!

[msanthrope]

3. Never give up. Note, friend, we are still here. nt

[bravenak]

4. We are. Many have found other places...

One of which I will no longer read after the things I saw written there. Omg.

[msanthrope]

5. I feel terrible for the women on that site. Imagine trying to be taken seriously

on a site that allows females to be called the c-word.

[bravenak]

7. The b-word too, among other nastiness

I saw one person try to ask for civility and they were castigated thoroughly.

[msanthrope]

10. Sexism towards one woman means sexism towards all. nt

[bravenak]

17. I agree

[runaway hero]

203. which site?

[KMOD]

18. Are you following her around on the internet?

[bravenak]

19. Of course.

[KMOD]

22. Your fan club is

yuuuuge, my friend.

[bravenak]

24. Gawd, I know. And persistant. Off topic. It's just weird at this point.

[Fozzledick]

21. No, I was just reading this thread and thought that post was ironic.

[randome]

6. But...but we're only trying to help!

Kidding, of course. I hear you loud and clear. The best help non-blacks can provide is to offer support and to vote. Anything else depends on the situation, of course.

[bravenak]

8. Oh yes. They can do us a solid and vote against Trump and not let him win.

[randome]

9. That's why I cannot understand those who want to sit out the election.

As if the entire fricking world revolves around their hurt feelings and no one else is involved.

[bravenak]

14. I see it as a form of revenge against us for voting a certain way

[LanternWaste]

160. You will of course, provide us with an accurate example of such, yes?

You will of course, provide us with an accurate example of such, yes? Otherwise, your supposition is merely that...

[bigbrother05]

173. And letting the country go to hell will teach that Brock guy a lesson?

We can fight the long, hard fight to the nomination, but Trump in the WH would make 2001-2009 seem like a golden age of enlightenment.

Also, any vote against the GOP at any level is a good vote.

[1StrongBlackMan]

178. For close to 10 months, we (PoC) were told ...

allowing the our (mis)treatment by some supporters of a candidate affect whether we could support that candidate was stupid and emotional and illogical (to cite a few descriptors) ... I would think allowing the (mis)treatment by some supporters of a different candidate affect whether you vote, at all, is equally stupid/emotional/illogical.

What changed?

[guillaumeb]

11. Recommended.

Especially :

The frustration that many white men and women feel with the declining significance of whiteness is what compels so many to subscribe to his brand of nationalism.

That is coupled with a declining income and economic insecurity.

White people, including many Trump supporters, are experiencing (economically) what non-whites have always experienced.

[bravenak]

16. That's what I see too

The leveling of the playing field has caused their advantages to stagnate or dissappear in many ways. They want that advantage back.

[Bohunk68]

39. Liking this thread and replies. I have felt the undercurrent of some

that is directed about the voting for certain candidates. That does nothing, I think, to bring us together as citizens. In many way, your OP argument is much like that of the gay community, in that, how can someone unfamiliar with the territory tell those who are and who are affected by it, what they should do and think? Better to sit back and listen and grow in knowledge. A thumbs up!

[bravenak]

42. Exactly, you got that right!

Hard to explain somebody else's experience to them.

[William769]

12. This is just one of the reasons I love you.

Keep it going!

[bravenak]

15. Love you too!!!

[surrealAmerican]

20. Not that I don't understand, but ...

... just like Black People don't like White People telling them what they feel - it isn't much better the other way around.

I don't know any white people who care about "the significance of whiteness". What I do know are white people frightened that they might be treated as unfairly as minorities have been treated in this country.

We are all our own best advocates, but we might just accomplish more by working together to make sure everybody is treated with respect and dignity.

[bravenak]

23. The only way we can 'work together' it is let me decide what's best for me and you to decide

what is best for you. It is paternalistic to decide what is best for those you have privilege over. It is also rude and overbearing bordering on obnoxious and infantalizing when it is done. How can people work together if one side is deciding everything for the rest of us, even down to how we should feel about being controlled?

[Bohunk68]

41. THIS

[surrealAmerican]

60. This is pretty much what I was saying.

Each person (or group) can only really be an expert on their own perspective.

Working together is not "being controlled". It requires listening to everybody. At some level, though, we all need to decide what is right for all of us together. The points we can agree on are the basis for a shared culture.

[mcar]

63. Why is this so hard to understand?

I have not walked in your shoes, you have not walked in mine. Why can't we learn from each other?

[Coolest Ranger]

53. If you don't understand

then spend some time with us and learn to see things from our perspective. As a black man it makes me damn angry when someone tells me that I have no right to offer an opinion on what it means to be black but someone white can get right up in my face, tell me to sit down and shut up. Frustrating the hell out of me when they do that.

[gwheezie]

105. Kinda looking forward to progress

I don't see the decline of white power as a negative, I think it will benefit all of us to move towards a society that is equal.
It reminds me of a heated argument among some family members when one was insisting that Spanish not be spoken in government run establishments to force assimilation into a specific culture. One of my nephews said it wasn't a concern of his since he can learn to speak Spanish. A silence fell over the room as people pondered that perhaps we could all learn to speak Spanish. Some of the older people were horrified and predicted the end of the country as we know it and the younger folks thought it was an opportunity to grow as human beings to be able to honor many cultures rather than degrade them.

[wysi]

25. K & R

[still_one]

26. You mean African Americans can think independently? I LIKE THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!

[bravenak]

28. I know, right?

[still_one]

29. ......................

[jack_krass]

96. Did you figure that out just recently?

[still_one]

97. My comment was sarcasm directed at those who presume to know what is best for an ethnic group, that

they are not part of

[Bucky]

27. three fictions. 1. white & black people are separate. 2. either group is uniform

and the third fiction is we can have business or social trends that are separate to either group without affecting the other.

I agree that it's bad for anyone, white or black, to treat white norms as All American norms. the social reality is that our culture is shaped by both. And by all groups who add to the cultural blend that is America.

but I also recognize that there are perverse groups in the country who want black Americans to act more white. And there's a general lack of empathy particularly among whites. that doesn't mean everybody. It just means we all need to do a better job being Americans

[bravenak]

30. I don't think the point was to imply that we are a monolith

Look at Stacey Dash, she does not mind white people speaking for her or making all the decisions. She seems to feel that complaining implies weakness. But, yes, what affects one affects the other but... Sometimes what affects one negatively is a net positive for the other group.

Take wage stagnation, we blacks have not experienced the level of wage stagnation that white people complain about happening in the last forty years. We actually have experience growth while whites have flatlined. Keeping our wages low and keeping us out of many unions had the affect of allowing white males to be paid more. Without that boot on our neck, we have higher wages than 40 years ago comparatively. And without that boot on our neck white wages are flatlined. Not saying this is the only cause of wage stagnation, or division but it is one.

Therefore, the rhetoric of America sucking now compared to the days of FDR or Kennedy falls on deaf ears. White populism passes us by because we do not live the white experience. Which is one reason the appeals to us that we were voting against our best interests because we could go BACK to better times did not work. We are not nostalgic like our white counterparts. There is no better time to be a black person in america than this day. I think that white people just do not realize that.

[JustAnotherGen]

126. This right here -

Therefore, the rhetoric of America sucking now compared to the days of FDR or Kennedy falls on deaf ears. White populism passes us by because we do not live the white experience. Which is one reason the appeals to us that we were voting against our best interests because we could go BACK to better times did not work. We are not nostalgic like our white counterparts. There is no better time to be a black person in america than this day. I think that white people just do not realize that.

Keep your eyes on the green light. There is nothing of value behind us.

[bravenak]

177. It would be hell to go backwards like some want to do. We know this. I sometimes think they do too.

[susanr516]

216. Excellent observation n/t

[etherealtruth]

31. I try ... at 54, I am still a work in progress

I want to listen, learn and support.

I figure if I am giving someone something I think they need vs what they tell me they (or what they truly) need .... I am "helping' myself and not the or anyone else.

.... but, I am a work in progress and I get it wrong sometimes

[bravenak]

33. I think we all get it wrong sometimes, but at least we give it a try and try some more.

I think that's the best we can do.

[MFM008]

111. I'm still getting it wrong

Daily. Chin up!

[ismnotwasm]

32. Yup.

K&R

[bravenak]

34. Hey!

[ismnotwasm]

50. Hey you!

[treestar]

35. Amen!

These desperate troglodytes (white) who think Trump is going to bring back the 50s or whatever they deem the time America was "great." They are pathetic.

[bravenak]

37. They really are stupid as hell. Trump is a CON ARTIST. I keep trying to explain that to folks.

[Starry Messenger]

36. Love this!

[bravenak]

38. Me too! Lol.

[bravenak]

44. Bye.

[nolabear]

45. Lord, I hope so. I was on the jury and OH HELL NO.

[bravenak]

47. He's gone. Will be back to see me again, I'm sure.

[malaise]

46. If we agree fine

If we don't - that's fine too. I don't have to see things from anyone's perspective but mine.

Thanks to my very anti-colonial aunt, I've always been that way.

[bravenak]

48. I feel the same.

[Coolest Ranger]

49. I could not agree more

Thank you so much for posting this

[bravenak]

52. It has been a difficult year in blackness

[floriduck]

56. I agree completely. Whites have no more business determining your needs, desires, dreams any

more than men do with women's issues. Each have their own hurdles and they are best to determine how to deal with them. But the black population has never had a close to fair shake in the history of this country. How sad.

Today I was heart broken when I heard the latest verdict in Freddie Gray's case. The list of injustices continues to grow and our leaders must find an effective way to address it.

[bravenak]

58. I hope we find a way

We have overcome many obstacles and I think we will figure out how to grow as a nation. We are immature. We are selfish. But we care, even the worst of us have something that we love. I think we have to start loving other people and checking ourselves. Learn from our mistakes and listen to each other. I see a lot of our issues as fear based. Fear of rejection. Fear of loss. Fear of change. Fear of the unknown. We have to find courage.

[floriduck]

61. I hear you, bravenak.

Sometimes the answers come when you least expect them. Hope and determination go hand in hand.

[brer cat]

79. Great post, bravenak!

A lot of those fears would disappear if we took the time to get to know one another. Fear of the unknown is powerful, and easily stoked.

[bravenak]

80. I agree that contact lessens fears

Humans are quite clannish. We group up and probably have since the caves.

[mia]

212. Agree with you...

Fear comes from the first instance that we realize that we are mortal. From then on we continually seek comfort from those who are like us and from others we have come to know and trust.

[stonecutter357]

51. K&R!

[1StrongBlackMan]

54. Posted to for later reading.

[stonecutter357]

55. K&R!

[cheapdate]

57. I'll bear this in mind as I continue to do whatever I think is right.

[bravenak]

59. Makes sense.

[mcar]

62. K&R

[Spitfire of ATJ]

64. ...

[lumberjack_jeff]

65. Does this not imply that "my business" is what's best for white people? n/t

[KMOD]

67. No. It's really quite a simple concept.

You should do what is in your best interest.

You should not tell others what is in their best interest.

[whathehell]

200. It can becomes a lot less simple when different groups occupy the

same space and have to share it, along with it's governance, resources, etc.

[DustyJoe]

72. so true

What ever happened to the -i'll keep out of our face if you keep out of my face and if we do meet there's nothing wrong with civility- ? Has worked for me for over 60 years. There is nothing to be gained but distrust and disdain acting and speaking as you have any idea what another persons life and trials are when you have absuletely no idea.

[LanternWaste]

161. You're again conflating "imply" and "infer

You're again conflating "imply" and "infer"; whether consciously or not I cannot say...

[lumberjack_jeff]

201. No, I am not. I draw inference from her implication.

One can't express inferences.

[Number23]

66. "Black folks are beginning to no longer center whiteness in their dress, speech and lifestyle choice

And I am so DAMN glad to see this.

K&R

[bravenak]

73. Me too! We needed this.

[sheshe2]

68. Excellent.

Thanks bravenak.

[raven mad]

69. KICK because truth is truth.

I learned that while living in Alabama for many years. Thanks for this post, bravnak - I'm bookmarking it.

[Haveadream]

70. K&R!

Excellent article and thread. Thank you for sharing it, bravenak!

[fleabiscuit]

71. K&R

[Taitertots]

74. Why doesn't your quote include the portions bad mouthing democratic candidates?

Oh yeah. You'd get your post hidden if you made the claims in the article. An article that claims sanders supporters are white supremacists and Hillary Clinton is centerd in white priviledge.


I will not ask you to be silent and its offensive for you to suggest that I should be silent based solely on my race.

[bravenak]

77. I used the quotes I wanted to use.

Anyone can click the link to read the rest.

[Taitertots]

112. I'm going to report the OP for linking to anti-democratic candidate websites

You don't get to insult Hillary and claim Bernie supporters are white supremisists on DU. The TOS is pretty clear.

[bravenak]

113. Nobody claimed anybody was a white supremacist.

I have no idea where you got that.

[Taitertots]

114. It's in the article that YOU linked to in the OP

Did you read the whole article?

"Bernie Sanders supporters engage in behavior rooted in white supremacy when black folks do not vote the way they would prefer, and Hillary Clinton’s dismissal of BLM protesters, her record in Haiti and her support for the death penalty show that she is firmly centered in white privilege."

[bravenak]

116. It talked about the black view of the candidates.

It was not bashing, just stating the facts of the nation we live in and the history we live with.

[Taitertots]

117. Calling it "the black view" doesn't change that fact that it's bashing...

Bernie supporters as white supremacists. Or insulting Hillary Clinton as being centered in white Priviledge (white racism/discrimination).

Go bashing democratic candidates and their supporters somewhere else.

[bravenak]

118. This was a critique

[heaven05]

193. that one

can't understand that point. Too hurt by truth that strikes home. Keep up your good work. Critiques and all.

[bravenak]

195. Yeah, I think we are seeing more hurt feelings than anything else.

[KMOD]

128. Defense mechanisms

I'm white. I recognize that the problem many white people have, is that they see words like "white supremacy" and they react immediately, and negatively, without reading deeper into it what is being said.

It is absolutely true that there were many Bernie Sanders supporters who were upset that Bernie was not gaining more traction with black voters. Many tried to explain to black voters why Bernie was in their best interest. Think about that. Do you not see how that is demeaning and ridiculous?

Hillary herself admitted that she has benefited from white privilege and it's something that all white people need to recognize and take a deeper look at.

[Taitertots]

162. People are naturally defensive when other people are offensive

Calling Bernie supporters white supremacists is offensive.

I'll never stop speaking my mind to other people just because of the color of their skin. It's far more demeaning and offensive to suggest that white people shouldn't try to convince black people of the merits of their favored candidates. Just like it would be offensive if white people told black people that they don't get to tell white people about the merits of their favored candidate.

[KMOD]

166. some behaviour was. Follow the link in the article to read it.

And of course you should talk to all people about the merits of your favored candidate.

But what shouldn't happen, yet sadly did, it to suggest that black voters who did not prefer Bernie Sanders were ignorant to their own best interests. One supporter went so far as to suggest that black voters who did not prefer Sanders, have Stockholm syndrome.

That was, at best, extremely arrogant and tone deaf.

[Electric Monk]

167. So, your basic issue here is you're still upset about WillyT. Thanks for clarifying. nt

[KMOD]

168. No. That's not my basic issue.

Sadly though, these incidents did happen.

Do you understand why it was offensive though? Maybe the article in the OP will make more sense to you if you can at least get that.

[Electric Monk]

170. I understand from your posts that you think it's ok to be racist against white people.

I don't think that's a good generalization to make.

[KMOD]

171. I have know idea where you got that from,

since absolutely no one is being racist against white people.

Don't tell black people what is in their best interest.

Why is that so hard to understand? You have not walked in their shoes, you do not face their battles, and you most likely do not know what is in their best interest. Black people, just like white people, can make up their own minds. They are not monolithic. The fact that many white people seem to be ignorant of this is not racist, it's just ignorance.

[Ligyron]

189. What I saw in the main was that POC supported HRC because of name recognition

whereas most people knew little of Sanders and his long record of support for civil rights. People just didn't know him and others were trying to err, educate?

I guess a lot of that came off as "whitesplainin'".

what some people were trying to point out was the Clinton's get tough on crime legislation did more to hurt black folks than almost anything since Jim Crow uo to the time when the a big part of the voting rights act got torpedoed by the Supremes.

Also, Bernie probably had a bad day and was in no mood when the Black Lives Matter folks showed up so that didn't help either.

[bravenak]

196. The reason that saying Clinton policies hurt us did not work is because

Bernie voted in favor of that same legislation. Once we knew that, it was a wash. We go with what we know.

[Ligyron]

215. I did not know that

[Gothmog]

75. K&R

[rbrnmw]

76. Damn right

[Igel]

78. Juche.

Redux.

[bravenak]

81. Not quite

That is missing the american racial dynamic and it's not really about self reliance. More along the lines of self discovery.

[Orrex]

82. Sounds good to me

Let me know what I can do to help, and otherwise I'll try to keep out of the way.

k/r

[bravenak]

83. I like having you in the discussion

[Orrex]

88. Thanks! I'm glad to participate!

[Electric Monk]

84. I think most people would agree that if you flipped those it'd be blatantly racist.

"When it comes to what's best for White People, it's time for Black People to mind their business"

That would be an extremely racist thing for someone to say, yes or no?

[Democat]

85. That's how identity politics works

You can criticize others, but others aren't allowed to criticize you.

[forjusticethunders]

122. Donald Trump thanks you for your vote.

Also recced this thread.

[Democat]

135. I believe in inclusion, not exclusion

Unlike many others here.

[kwassa]

86. Yes or no? No, of course.

Flipping those would take everything out of historical context.

Whites had all the power, blacks had none. There is no equivalency here. Let us move right along.

[Electric Monk]

87. Really? You're in denial that classifying like that is racism, practically by definition?

If only race X treated race Y differently...

That's racism. You're blaming a race comprised of many individuals for the actions and beliefs of some.

[kwassa]

91. I don't understand this response.

The great difference in the historical experience:

All racism isn't equal. The current definition of racism includes the concept of power, which black Americans never had.

[Electric Monk]

92. I don't understand yours. You're saying it's ok to be racist against white people, because?

None of my ancestors owned plantations, or were even very wealthy. One grandfather was an officer in the Navy in WW II, but that's about it for my "entitlement" due to my melatonin. I come from a family of farmers and social workers and teachers, who worked hard for their living, and I'm actually rather offended by your post.

[kwassa]

99. Institutional racism has benefited you.

And me too, for that matter.

You have white privilege, as do I.

The concept of white privilege is this: if a white person, and a black person, are in identical economic situations, the white person has an advantage, based on our historical racial history.

If you don't think this is true, I can drops of lot of explanation on you.

[Electric Monk]

100. I will concede that point, to some degree. My point still stands, that racism can varied. nt

[Electric Monk]

89. If only race X were different, all would be right in the world. That's racism, pure and simple. nt

[betsuni]

93. No.

Louis CK: "I''m a white man, how many advantages can one person have? You can't even hurt my feeling. What can you really call a white man? 'Hey, cracker.' 'Uh, ruined my day. ... Bringing me back to owning land and people, what a drag.'"

[jack_krass]

104. Looks racist to me.

[KMOD]

130. I think you missed the point of the article

Many white people are indeed trying to tell black people how they should act, how they should vote, how they should speak, etc.

Meanwhile, black people are not telling me or other white people any of these things.

[Electric Monk]

134. The OP is not Black People telling White People how they should act, speak, etc?

It appears that the irony is lost on Some People.

[KMOD]

137. No. It's not black people telling white people how to act.

It's telling you, to stop telling them, what is good for them.

It was summarized perfectly in the last line

some white folks also need to fall back when black folks debate what is best for our community.

[Electric Monk]

138. It's not telling white people how to act, it's just telling white people how to act. Ok, got it now.

nt

[KMOD]

139. Clearly, you don't.

Why do you think it's any of your business to tell black people what is best for them?

[Electric Monk]

141. You don't see your own double standard. That's the irony here. nt

[KMOD]

143. Can you answer my question?

Why do you think it's your business to tell black people what is best for them?

[Electric Monk]

144. Flip that on it's head and think about how rediculous a statement it is.

Why do you think it's your business to tell white people what is best for them to do or say?

People share opinions about things with each other. Sometimes they agree, sometimes they don't. Posts like the OP are trying to stifle discussion, plain and simple.

[KMOD]

147. The article is not telling white people what is best for them.

It's asking them to stop telling black people what is best for them.

So once again, why do you think it's your business to tell black people what is best for them? Because that is what you are arguing. You seem to think you should be allowed to do so. You don't see how that is paternalistic?

[Electric Monk]

148. Am I telling "black people" what is best for them? I share my opinions on what I think is best

for people and our world on a variety of subjects, from global warming to music to economics, etc. That's what discussion forums are for, right?

[KMOD]

149. sharing your opinion is great.

and listening to other opinions is also important.

But no adult should be telling any other adult what is best for them. That would be paternalistic.

That was the whole point of the article. Stop telling black people what is best for them. Somehow you found that offensive.

[KMOD]

152. She has been patiently, and persistantly trying to get people

to open their minds and eyes.

Again, nobody ever said Bernie Sanders was racist. But yes, he, Hillary and many white people are indeed tone deaf to racial issues.

Look at how many people to offense to this article, without thinking about what it was saying. The saw the words "white people", freaked out and stopped reading.

[melman]

158. No

No she hasn't.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

180. Yes, history, but what is happening now is BULLYING of bravenak. It has gone beyond "context".

Bullying needs to stop.

Bullying is against the DU Terms of Service.

[Electric Monk]

151. Would you have preferred it if William Lloyd Garrison, John Greenleaf Whittier, and

Harriet Beecher Stowe had just "minded their own business"?

[KMOD]

153. You continue to take offense at bits and pieces and are

still missing the main point.

Don't tell black people what is best for them.

Is this really that hard?

[Electric Monk]

154. We can end this subthread here if you like. I think that you totally missed my point, though. nt

[KMOD]

156. Sure. But I didn't miss your point.

You believe this is "race baiting". I am asking you to read it, without becoming defensive over seeing the words "white people", and then jumping to a conclusion that the author is calling people racist, and try to see it for what it really is. All the author was suggesting was that white people should stop telling black people what is in their best interest. And I agree with that whole heartedly.

[Electric Monk]

157. Yeah, you really did. If it was about "Black people" or "Asian people" or "Native people" or

"Latino people" should behave thusly, it'd be obviously racist, right? That you fail to see that here says a lot.

[KMOD]

159. The article is not telling you how to behave.

Again, you are focusing on brief parts. Clearly you are offended by the "mind your own business" line.

But why? Why do you feel it would be your business to tell black people what is in their best interest?

It addresses "white people" because it is "white people" who have been telling black people what is in their best interest.

Were you around last winter when Bernie Sanders supporters were tracking down black people on twitter, and facebook, and explaining to them how Bernie was best for them? It was bizarre to say the least.

Did you even read the article in its entirety?

[bravenak]

183. Perfect. Thank you.

[melman]

140. lol

Seriously.

[pnwmom]

90. Or how about "listen to" not "talk at"?

[bravenak]

94. That works for me!!

I like a good back and forth.

[jack_krass]

95. Unrec.Stupid, divisive crap article.

People (white and.black) will tell other people (white and black)what to do, both on a individual and group basis, despite idiotic articles and groveling idiots say.

[uponit7771]

108. and that makes it right? smh

[aikoaiko]

98. I think that's a lesson some of us are learning from the primary.

I struggle with trying to engage in discussion versus going over the line.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

101. we welcome all to the Sanders revolution

...

[MellowDem]

103. A sloppy article...

The author's own example required that he find out through asking questions where the boundary was. So it will be with cultural issues. And given we live in a highly segregated society, those questions will continue because there is real ignorance bred by lack of contact. Do you blame the child for not knowing better? Does telling a child to shut up do anything? And it certainly isn't just an issue between blacks and whites. Cultural ignorance runs wide and deep, and the author's call for people to "shut up" doesn't seem like it will work. Only through asking questions do people figure stuff out.

Also, I don't think the author understands whiteness right now. Whiteness isn't becoming less significant, it's the exact opposite. Whiteness is becoming ever more significant, especially to people like Trump's supporters.

The author's tone and position seems to only reinforce people who feel racial separation and greater affinity for white identity are the way to go. Don't ask questions or interact at all with other races, because it's impossible to be a part of any conversation, and asking questions is wrong.

[uponit7771]

106. Blaxit from white centered culture begins, it aint gonna be pretty in the short term

[betsuni]

107. Blaxit!

Good one!

[bravenak]

109. Yep. But it must be done.

[uponit7771]

127. +1, The right will fight the inertia but few listen to them now in regards to race seeing tRump is

... their standard bearer.

The left is what I'm ... not pleased with... a lot more of them than I thought... don't want to have this discussion.

I'm seeing the responses on your OP... too many reflexive retorts of non support.

[Quayblue]

125. Ha! Nt

[lunamagica]

110. K&R.

[TipTok]

115. Sounds like an attempt to have carte blanche to act however...

... and then act indignant when called out on it.

People need to become more integrated into society and quit trying to self segregate.

[KMOD]

131. Your statement would be spot on

if it was applied to the many white people who just don't get it.

Ironic, huh?

[Haveadream]

133. Not sure why people cannot "act however"

and not be called out on it. That is the point; self determination and all that.

As far as integration into society, also not sure into whose society people should "become" integrated. America is vast and diverse and respecting our differences is a good place to unite.


Some Americans:



?1454612318

[TipTok]

145. My "however" implied behavior outside of acceptable social norms...

In short, the same way that I treat everyone.

If I think you are doing something wrong, I reserve the right to speak my mind. You have the right to ignore it.

All those folks you had pictures of are open to the same standards and have the same ability to speak their mind with no expectation that they are exempt from criticism.

[Haveadream]

187. I understand what you are saying better now

When the OP says, "when it comes to what is best for black people, white people should mind their business", for you:

"that sounds like an attempt for them to have carte blanche to [behave] outside of acceptable social norms... and then act indignant when called out on it".

I don't see where that is implied by the OP or the article at all. I see people not wanting their culture to be defined by someone else's or a white version of "norm". Expecting everyone to integrate or wholesale assimilate into a white, christian, heterosexual, northern European, middle class average is not just unreasonable, it ruins what makes our country interesting and exceptional.We are not a homogenous country and attempts to make everyone conform to a standard defined by some is unfair.

[lovemydog]

119. k & r

A good read.

[redgreenandblue]

120. The article subtly ties Sanders to white supremacy. I read that as dog-whistle anti-semitism.

Please consider how offensive it is to invoke white supremacy in the context of a man who lost family in the Holocaust.

I'm not saying you did this on purpose, but please be aware of how this can be perceived.

[bunnies]

124. and his supporters "Bernie Sanders supporters engage in behavior rooted in white supremacy"

Isnt it great that some have figured out a creative way to continue to bash Bernie and his supporters? Isnt it though?

But its ok. Upthread th OP explains its simply a "critique".

[KMOD]

132. It does no such thing.

What is offensive, is that their are still too many white people who want to tell black people what is in their best interest. And that is what the author is saying.

[Electric Monk]

136. She has been even more blatant about it in the past. Not subtle (dog-whistle) at all.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/118743004

[melman]

142. Not subtle at all

Anyone with half a brain knows that's exactly why the OP posted the article.

[craigmatic]

121. Agreed the paternalistric attitude that some on the left have for black people

has to go. We need economic empowerment and you can't get that in the system as it stands which is why you may see black people begin to split their vote between dems and republicans. We're clearly being taken for granted while other groups are getting catered to.

[betsuni]

123. K&R

[lostnfound]

129. White women generally do not support Donald Trump.

Some women don't support Trump because he is sexist, some don't support Trump because he is racist, some don't support him because he is both. Not sure what that says about racism in white women.

President Obama rocks. Wish we could keep him for another 8 years. In spite of his support for neoliberalism / TPP, his grace, intelligence, dignity, wisdom, grounded was, and sense of history make me proud and happy to have voted for him three times.

[sulphurdunn]

164. If you don't like

the opinions of white people, don't listen. Isn't that what you're saying, "Just mind your own business?" It goes both ways, kind of like constructive communication. You see, if you tell some poor white man, who lives from hand to mouth, who can't feed his family or get a job, that he's part of a system of privilege, he's going to laugh at you. When he replies that you're better off than he is, and you tell him that's none of his business, he will take offense. Since he is most likely poorly educated and probably not too bright, he's going to be all ears when someone who is privileged says that what you want is to horn in on the crumbs that fall from his master's table. When you tell progressive whites, especially those who have fought for civil rights most of lives, that they are just a bunch of privileged racist, they might just tell you to shove it.

[bravenak]

181. All whites benefit from their whiteness. Period.

This nation was built on blacks being subjugated and whites being free and Natives being treated like shit. This nation was not built on black supermacy. You are talking hurt feelings, I am talking paternalism and oppression.

[sulphurdunn]

184. Hurt feelings?

The "all whites benefit from their whiteness" narrative doesn't hold water anymore than "all Jews are rich." Nor, does an appeal to history make either of these sweeping generalizations true.

[bravenak]

185. Not the same thing at all

This nation was built on White supremacy not Jewish Supremacy. They are still an oppressed minority in many ways. I can make a sweeping generalization because the laws were made to benefit white's and oppress everyone else since the inception of this nation. Jim Crow affected blacks for decades, and Jews were also subject to many cruelties and in places were subjected to Jim Crow right along with us.
This idea that Jews have all the money is nonsense and I have no clue where you came up with that idea.

[sulphurdunn]

188. Forget it. If you ever want

to see whites who are not now and never have been privileged, come on down to rural Appalachia. I'll show you some hollers full of poor whites that will make you think inner cities look like country clubs. The canard about the rich Jew is centuries old. It's no idea of mine. Can't believe you never heard it.

[bravenak]

190. That is called poverty

Not all privilege relates to money. And I have no idea why I should know about every racist trope. It would take a lifetime to learn them all.
Btw, my grandad was from there. Compared to the blacks, I can tell you that blacks and browns living there were treated like shit by those poor whites who you say have no privilege over them. Jim Crow existed even there, and it was their privilege to use Jim Crow against their fellow poverty stricked citizens of color.

[sulphurdunn]

191. This is 2016, not 1916,

or 1956. The population I told you about lives in an area that is 99% white and has been since the first settlers stole the land from the Indians. Most of them would think Jim Crow is someone's name. They didn't own slaves, didn't fight for the Confederacy. Their land was stolen by coal companies at the turn of the century and they worked the coal mines that were once on their land to keep from starving. When it became unbearable, they struck. When the coal companies brought in blacks and Eastern Europeans to break the strike, they united with them and formed one of the first integrated labor unions in America. When the companies sent in gun thugs and the national guard to suppress them, they fought the biggest battle on American soil since the Civil War. Most of them never saw a privileged day in their lives and neither have a lot of their descendants right up to today.

[bravenak]

194. They had the 'privilege' of living on stolen land while the original inhabitants were removed

to allow them full access and ownership.

[sulphurdunn]

197. It's been thosuands of years

since any people migrated to a place not already occupied by others. Conquest is not a behavior peculiar to white people. Also, the inhabitants were not removed as in the passive voice. The settlers drove them out themselves and intermarried with the rest. What any of that has to do with white privilege escapes me.

I am perfectly aware that a white power structure rules this country. It always has, and it has been very hard on POC. That needs to change. My objection is in the indefensible argument that by definition the term white privilege includes all whites. I hear that a lot. That kind of thinking is not only unsound and untrue but is also intellectually lazy and divisive. It does not serve to move this multi-racial and ethnic society a place where there is finally liberty and justice for all.

[bravenak]

198. How often were people removed just because of the color of their skin?

I am discussing american issues not Anthropology.

[sulphurdunn]

208. Most of the time people are removed

to make way for their conquerors. In America, the conquered people were non-whites. When the Saxons invaded Britain, both groups were white. That did not stop the Saxons from enslaving, absorbing or driving out the native Britons.

[bravenak]

209. In this case the conquerors (privileged) were the new white folks and the (oppressed) were

the dark folks. And it was done based simply on the color of their skin. No need for anybody to defend the evil that we did as a nation to people of color. We never did right the wrongs and so yes, those white are racially privileged in that they were the ones that the others were oppressed to benefit. Slavery did not benefit blacks very much in this nation. Manifest Destiny did not benefit Native Americans. Jim Crow did not benefit colored people or Jews. Redlining did not benefit anybody but Whites. Segregation only benefitted whites. Literacy tests did not benefit blacks. The entire system of this nation was designed to benefit whites, even today the way food stamps and other services are distributed benefit rurla areas more in many places, because rural areas are white areas. The presense of poverty among some segments of white people does not mean that white skin privilege does not exist. It does. Just like the presence of wealthy blacks does not mean black poverty is over.

[sulphurdunn]

210. The whites who conquered America

did it for the land and resources. They didn't come thousands of dangerous miles just to take from POC becasue they were POC. That is indefensible factually. I would very much like for you to provide some evidence to support your allegation that the social services network is biased in favor of poor, rural whites, unless you mean that because most poor people are white that somehow that biases the system in their favor. Indentured servitude wasn't created to benefit poor whites, neither was slavery or any of the other evils you mention. Literacy and aptitude tests were used extensively to keep Eastern Europeans from immigrating to the US as well as keeping blacks from voting. I cannot really grasp your insistence that being dirt poor means you're oppressed if you're black and privileged if your white. Have a nice day. It has been an interesting discussion.

[bravenak]

211. They did come thousands of miles to oppress poc

They straight up sailed to Africa to catch my ancestors and force them into slavery because they wanted the workers and decided we were not actual humans because of the color of our skin. Other dark folks were also dehumanized. I have no idea why you think they did not travel thousands of miles to oppress dark people when we had the transatlantic slave trade.

[sulphurdunn]

213. The overwhelming majority

of Europeans who came to North America.a couldn't have cared less about POC. They came for the land and to get the hell out of Europe where most of them starved most of the time. Most were poor. Nearly half were indentured and 4 out of 10 didn't survive the experience. Those who did moved west. They had little other choice. When the landed aristocracy determined it was cheaper to use slaves, they switched to Africans and participated in the abomination of the Trans Atlantic Slave Trade that had already been in existence of more than a century. It was the rich who exploited both black and white then just like now. There is no monolithic racial conspiracy of poor but privileged whites to oppress POC and never has been. That's just another variant on the divide and conquer thinking that's been used to pit poor whites against poor blacks since the day the first slave ship arrived in 1607 and began replacing indentured servitude.

http://www.ushistory.org/us/5b.asp

[bravenak]

214. That does not change the history of oppression and the fact that they come to take the land of the

dark people who already lived here by force and extermination and forcible removal. It does not change the fact that the institutional racism built into this nation caused others to be oppressed so that they could succed and own that land that was not ever theirs to begin with. It does not change the fact that the status they hold above us is based in this history of white supremacy.
They were able by virtue of the color of their skin to become 'americans' and none of the mechanisms of racial oppression were used AGAINST THEM. When everyone else is oppressed by vortue of the color of their skin except for one group, they are PRIVILEGED not to suffer ANY racial oppression as the rest of us AMERICANS have Experienced.

[adigal]

204. I live in very poor, rural upstate NY, and while I know the white poor have advantages

that black people don't have, they are certainly not "advantaged." They can't feed their kids when food stamps run out, they can't afford oil with 1/2 the winter to go.

And as a white woman to be told to shut up about civil rights - no, I won't. A lot of the wealthier rural whites in the tourist area where I work are racist as hell and I continually call them out on it. I can do that. When the one black student in my school district tries to call them out, he is treated like shit. I can do things BECAUSE of my white person privilege, which I think is terrible in and of itself, that this young man can't do. So I do it, because I feel that if I have an unfair privilege, it is my moral obligation to use it in a way that is helpful, and not harmful.

[bravenak]

205. Nobody told you to shut up

Just to allow others to speak and think for themselves without the oppressive interference. The role you describe is supportive not oppressive. Helping to maginify the voices of the marginalized is what we ask people to do. So, it seems as if you are already helping in your own way, and that is appreciated. It is not telling us what's best for us, What you describe.

[adigal]

206. Oh, sorry. I misunderstood. I was mostly reading the comments. :) nt

[bravenak]

207. It's cool

[elljay]

186. There is nothing privileged

about being able to walk down the street without being arrested. That is a RIGHT, not a PRIVILEGE. Calling a poor white person privileged because they get the rights that EVERYONE should have is wrong and offensive. It may feel good for some to flip the paradigm and say that instead of black people being discriminated against, white people are privileged, but it is not necessarily true.

[egduj]

165. Is this about the Brexit?

[bravenak]

199. Of course not.

[secondwind]

169. Well said, Bravenak...

[jmg257]

172. Sounds like a plan...

"The time has come for white folks, ally or not, to understand that some of the conversations happening in the black community, some of the music coming out of the black community and the behavior of black folks are simply not your concern."


"The only way we can 'work together' it is let me decide what's best for me and you to decide
what is best for you."



LOVE that!!

[kiva]

175. And should Black People mind their own business?

Because I'm thinking that might limit the number of posts about White Tears, White Privilege, White culture and a lot of other posts that have been the staple of DU for several years.

[bravenak]

179. Most of those posts are from- White people....

Has nothing to do with this at all. That is not blacks telling you what to do, it is people laughing at how priviliged others acts. Nothing to do with this op.

[HassleCat]

176. Just tell us and we'll do it.

If you want us to retreat into our "progressive circles" and not take an interest, we could do that.

[heaven05]

192. as usual

TRUTH with a capital BLM. +1000 Glad to see you.

[runaway hero]

202. I agree

This should apply to black Bernie Supporters and Black Trumpies (there are some, I'll tell ya.)