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Fri Jun 24, 2016, 09:19 AM

Here's why 52% of British voted to leave

Well, for starters the working classes highly resented that the EU mainly benefits the corporatists, banksters, and other assorted elites and bureaucrats. Sound familiar?

And it's just a fact that the EU was sold as a simple trade organization that has grown into a large undemocratic political organization with strong hints that an EU military is to follow.

Xenophobia absolutely played a part in it, but don't forget that people vote in their own self-interest.

The working class resents the fact that the British are told by the EU how many benefits migrants are owed upon arrival in Britain. This is one of the issues that Cameron has supposedly "negotiated."

The working class resents the crowded schools and overworked National Health Service brought about by an influx of immigrants (and a conservative government).

They resent numerous little things that we don't think about.

The working class resents that migrants can qualify for council (government) housing, while they remain on a wait list.

And the middle class resents that they can no longer get their foot on the bottom rung of the housing ladder due to a severe housing shortage.

The list of resentments against the EU is long! This is not just about xenophobia. While Labour party leaders were pro remain, labour party members voted leave!

I'm afraid that the EU just doesn't have the appeal to the working classes that it does to the upper middle class. Everyone I know in Britain (I lived in England) was hoping to retire in a little village in France or Spain, or even in one of the poorer EU countries where their pensions would have gained them a higher quality of life. Even if they never left, it was always going to be a dream.

The working classes can't afford to up and move. They won't have proceeds from the sale of their house to buy them a "little cottage" in the French countryside. They see no reason for borders to remain open. They aren't going out; all they see are more people coming in. They don't care if they will have to stand in line at border control; they can't afford to travel, anyway.

These are not petty issues and they are multiplied many times over
what I could type.

And, again, they resent the ridiculous bureaucracy of the EU.

"The EU is poised to ban high-powered appliances such as kettles, toasters, hair-dryers within months of Britain’s referendum vote, despite senior officials admitting the plan has brought them “ridicule”.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/10/eu-to-launch-kettle-and-toaster-crackdown-after-brexit-vote2/

The bureaucrats in the EU can't help themselves. Even with the Brexit vote poised to take place, they were continuing to show how out of touch and petty they have become.

If this is a divorce, the EU did much to provoke it, and now they've got to figure out how to break up while still maintaining the peace for this millennia.

155 replies, 11713 views

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Arrow 155 replies Author Time Post
Reply Here's why 52% of British voted to leave (Original post)
TexasMommaWithAHat Jun 2016 OP
brentspeak Jun 2016 #1
swhisper1 Jun 2016 #18
FighttheFuture Jun 2016 #111
nashville_brook Jun 2016 #141
Initech Jun 2016 #135
rateyes Jun 2016 #2
yourpaljoey Jun 2016 #152
treestar Jun 2016 #3
TexasMommaWithAHat Jun 2016 #7
Hortensis Jun 2016 #103
stopbush Jun 2016 #123
Hortensis Jun 2016 #127
stopbush Jun 2016 #128
Hortensis Jun 2016 #132
chapdrum Jun 2016 #116
B2G Jun 2016 #16
Hoyt Jun 2016 #4
TexasMommaWithAHat Jun 2016 #5
alarimer Jun 2016 #10
mountain grammy Jun 2016 #81
stopbush Jun 2016 #125
swhisper1 Jun 2016 #17
Adrahil Jun 2016 #25
TexasMommaWithAHat Jun 2016 #29
Adrahil Jun 2016 #35
brentspeak Jun 2016 #58
Adrahil Jun 2016 #67
brentspeak Jun 2016 #69
mythology Jun 2016 #124
Surya Gayatri Jun 2016 #138
SickOfTheOnePct Jun 2016 #144
pampango Jun 2016 #43
forjusticethunders Jun 2016 #6
leftynyc Jun 2016 #9
uponit7771 Jun 2016 #14
leftynyc Jun 2016 #27
uponit7771 Jun 2016 #34
leftynyc Jun 2016 #40
uponit7771 Jun 2016 #41
leftynyc Jun 2016 #44
uponit7771 Jun 2016 #54
Violet_Crumble Jun 2016 #142
AngryAmish Jun 2016 #66
uponit7771 Jun 2016 #68
Igel Jun 2016 #146
uponit7771 Jun 2016 #147
forjusticethunders Jun 2016 #20
leftynyc Jun 2016 #33
uponit7771 Jun 2016 #39
leftynyc Jun 2016 #42
uponit7771 Jun 2016 #57
TexasMommaWithAHat Jun 2016 #51
uponit7771 Jun 2016 #59
TexasMommaWithAHat Jun 2016 #71
uponit7771 Jun 2016 #72
TexasMommaWithAHat Jun 2016 #85
uponit7771 Jun 2016 #87
Denzil_DC Jun 2016 #77
TexasMommaWithAHat Jun 2016 #89
Denzil_DC Jun 2016 #94
TexasMommaWithAHat Jun 2016 #98
Denzil_DC Jun 2016 #110
TexasMommaWithAHat Jun 2016 #118
Denzil_DC Jun 2016 #126
TexasMommaWithAHat Jun 2016 #129
Denzil_DC Jun 2016 #134
TexasMommaWithAHat Jun 2016 #140
Recursion Jun 2016 #83
whatthehey Jun 2016 #45
TexasMommaWithAHat Jun 2016 #52
uponit7771 Jun 2016 #62
whatthehey Jun 2016 #65
uponit7771 Jun 2016 #74
whatthehey Jun 2016 #76
uponit7771 Jun 2016 #79
whatthehey Jun 2016 #80
PaulaFarrell Jun 2016 #109
PaulaFarrell Jun 2016 #104
TexasMommaWithAHat Jun 2016 #105
uponit7771 Jun 2016 #13
Silver_Witch Jun 2016 #46
uponit7771 Jun 2016 #49
Silver_Witch Jun 2016 #82
BeyondGeography Jun 2016 #8
TexasMommaWithAHat Jun 2016 #91
BeyondGeography Jun 2016 #99
sendero Jun 2016 #11
forjusticethunders Jun 2016 #21
sendero Jun 2016 #22
forjusticethunders Jun 2016 #23
TexasMommaWithAHat Jun 2016 #26
angrychair Jun 2016 #86
forjusticethunders Jun 2016 #155
SMC22307 Jun 2016 #154
smirkymonkey Jun 2016 #149
uponit7771 Jun 2016 #12
swhisper1 Jun 2016 #15
FLPanhandle Jun 2016 #19
jonno99 Jun 2016 #95
leftofcool Jun 2016 #24
Marr Jun 2016 #114
HERVEPA Jun 2016 #28
Kilgore Jun 2016 #30
TexasMommaWithAHat Jun 2016 #37
Kilgore Jun 2016 #70
TexasMommaWithAHat Jun 2016 #75
jonno99 Jun 2016 #96
TexasMommaWithAHat Jun 2016 #100
PaulaFarrell Jun 2016 #106
TexasMommaWithAHat Jun 2016 #108
PaulaFarrell Jun 2016 #112
closeupready Jun 2016 #31
RDANGELO Jun 2016 #32
flamingdem Jun 2016 #36
geardaddy Jun 2016 #88
Freddie Jun 2016 #136
flamingdem Jun 2016 #137
Yavin4 Jun 2016 #38
RDANGELO Jun 2016 #48
Yavin4 Jun 2016 #50
RDANGELO Jun 2016 #53
Yavin4 Jun 2016 #55
Denzil_DC Jun 2016 #73
The2ndWheel Jun 2016 #60
Yavin4 Jun 2016 #122
frazzled Jun 2016 #47
kcjohn1 Jun 2016 #61
David__77 Jun 2016 #107
frazzled Jun 2016 #120
smirkymonkey Jun 2016 #56
elljay Jun 2016 #101
Bucky Jun 2016 #63
phazed0 Jun 2016 #64
Geronimoe Jun 2016 #78
geardaddy Jun 2016 #84
TexasMommaWithAHat Jun 2016 #90
ananda Jun 2016 #92
PatrynXX Jun 2016 #93
Prism Jun 2016 #97
TexasMommaWithAHat Jun 2016 #102
Marr Jun 2016 #113
Populist_Prole Jun 2016 #119
Android3.14 Jun 2016 #115
PaulaFarrell Jun 2016 #117
Denzil_DC Jun 2016 #131
PaulaFarrell Jun 2016 #133
Duval Jun 2016 #121
kiva Jun 2016 #130
spanone Jun 2016 #139
Teamster Jeff Jun 2016 #143
Denzil_DC Jun 2016 #145
Sunlei Jun 2016 #148
HuckleB Jun 2016 #150
certainot Jun 2016 #151
pansypoo53219 Jun 2016 #153

Response to TexasMommaWithAHat (Original post)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 09:23 AM

1. Well, according to some here on this website

It was all because of Donald Trump.

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Response to brentspeak (Reply #1)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 09:48 AM

18. like Trump has any respect in the world

 

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Response to brentspeak (Reply #1)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 11:59 AM

111. We ignore Trump at our own Peril. He is actually providing a very good read on the real

 

pulse of the people. He senses, like the feral parasite he is, where things are and what people are perceiving. Couple that with his masterful manipulation of the media, and he does appear to be a puppet master. He is not, but spun appearances in today's culture count for so much, alas. In that sense he is very useful and if you ignore what he is saying or where he goes, it is to your own determine as the Republican Party leaders discovered. Use Trump to gain a sense of what is happening, what people are really feeling, and where possible take on those positions, clarify them and and take away his power before it is too late.


To also clarify, positions like Trumps' misogyny, racism, bigotry, intolerance, hateful divisiveness, Fuck HIM and Fuck those who go for that crap. They should not be respected and should be resisted. Where is talking about bad trade deals, lost jobs, bankers, walls street, etc. Those are powerful positions and we need to take them on, as Bernie was, to rob Trump of his power he gains from them under his image as some "deal maker". Trump will do jack shit about them. There is a better chance the Democrats will actually do something about them, to really try to address them, and people need to understand that.

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Response to FighttheFuture (Reply #111)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 09:33 PM

141. this has been bugging me, about Trump's messaging

it doesn't take a prophet or a sage to interpret the zeitgeist the way he has. what he's been able to do is get a microphone and say (badly) what many americans have been saying for years — the we're getting screwed. he doesn't offer any kind of acceptable remedy, he just stirs the pot.

so why don't you hear this from our side?

is it b/c they get shouted out? b/c the establishment closes up communicative spaces as soon as people start paying attention to inequality (like with Occupy and Bernie). gotta stamp that shit out.

would-be allies have no reason to take up meaningful action against inequality b/c they see how it results the ending of careers.

it's quite an effective bell jar we have constructed around ourselves.

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Response to brentspeak (Reply #1)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 01:59 PM

135. If Trumpenfuror is for something I'm definitely against it.

Although in this case I don't know enough about Brexit yet to make an informed decision about it.

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Response to TexasMommaWithAHat (Original post)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 09:26 AM

2. We better pay attention to this!

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Response to rateyes (Reply #2)

Sat Jun 25, 2016, 12:06 PM

152. I agree

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Response to TexasMommaWithAHat (Original post)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 09:27 AM

3. why don't the other countries have people who

resent the same things?

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Response to treestar (Reply #3)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 09:33 AM

7. They do!

The Dutch, the French, the Spaniards...just for starters. EU leaders are terrified that other countries will follow.

The EU can work, imo, but not as a political organization seeking to place the same rules and regulations on quite disparate economies and cultures.

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Response to TexasMommaWithAHat (Reply #7)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 11:48 AM

103. Oh, yes! Anti-establishment populist movements are

on the rise in most nations. They all combine resentment directed at evil "establishment" "elites" with any of a broad range of host ideologies. Add to that the many millions of people moving around the planet, over 50 million of them homeless refugees with the promise of more to follow, and many of these movements are of course also driven by xenophobia and nationalism. More are right wing than left.

And today populist groups across Europe say they're considering referendums.

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Response to Hortensis (Reply #103)


Response to stopbush (Reply #123)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 12:55 PM

127. Boy! Certainly often. Being a successful leader

on a very large scale takes a variety of skills and assets after all.

Trump's not the biggest brain, but he is a successful salesman with proven skills in front of the cameras he adores and his own startup money. When you add rampant narcissism to that, how could he resist piping the tune he knew millions of conservatives were eager to hear? He could have done a left-wing movement but I think there are fewer on that side, plus most conservatives are naturally authoritarian also and really need a leader to follow, making them especially vulnerable. So this B-list (at best) establishment elite figure plays the leader they think they want on a world stage with thousands shouting his name wherever he goes...

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Response to Hortensis (Reply #127)


Response to stopbush (Reply #128)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 01:06 PM

132. You're on your own with this one.

Trump I completely agree about. And we're doing it in such great "style." I'd put our right-wing B-list leader up against those of any East European state for sheer...show.

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Response to TexasMommaWithAHat (Reply #7)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 12:07 PM

116. Spot on response.

 

Thanks.

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Response to treestar (Reply #3)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 09:45 AM

16. They just haven't had referendums yet. nt

 

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Response to TexasMommaWithAHat (Original post)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 09:28 AM

4. My bet is that the "working class" will not come out better under Exit. They might feel better

sticking it to the corporatists/oligarchs/foreign rule/whatever. But, don't think they will actually be better off any time soon.

The only way I really see this working to benefit of "working class" is that some new type of EU emerges built upon the message sent in the vote and fear among other countries the vote/sentiments have generated. It's going to take many years to unwind from EU. Gotta wonder if (perhaps hope) something new emerges that takes the best from the EU and corrects some of the issues. That would be a good thing.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #4)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 09:31 AM

5. I agree somewhat.

It will take years, probably.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #4)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 09:36 AM

10. I agree. They will be even more screwed for their fit of petulance.

The whole thing was based on lies. Fact-free politics, just like Donald Trump and the Republicans. These people believe things that simply aren't true. And no amount of correct information will fix that. Because in fact, labor laws were stricter with the EU than they were before or likely will be after, so workers in particular will be even worse off. And they are fooling themselves if they think there will be less bureaucracy.

I can't understand why the left who supported leave didn't see that. They will at best be a minority, among all the racists and nationalists. There is no way, even as a left-wing person myself, I could have made common cause with racists and xenophobes. This cannot end well for them, at least in the short term.

And it is young people who will suffer most. Voted for by people who won't live to see the rotten future. Their job opportunities will sink even further now that they will no longer be able to work in 27 other countries.

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Response to alarimer (Reply #10)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 10:58 AM

81. Yes, I agree. This will not end well.

like working people voting for Reagan.

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Response to mountain grammy (Reply #81)


Response to Hoyt (Reply #4)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 09:47 AM

17. Eu must reform. Too many members want out for justified reasons

 

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #4)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 10:00 AM

25. Of course they won't.

 

Isolationism is never the boon some imagine it is. Make no mistake, the economic elites might be inconvenienced, but they will not be hurt in the end.

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Response to Adrahil (Reply #25)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 10:09 AM

29. Not wanting to have the bureaucrats in Brussels

run your country is not isolationism.

Personally, I think the Brits should stay in if the EU goes back to a trading union instead of a political organization. I would have preferred to work with the other EU countries to change the EU back to the economic union of the seventies, and maybe that will happen if other countries start leaving.

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Response to TexasMommaWithAHat (Reply #29)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 10:13 AM

35. That just sounds like right-win nonsense.

 

Replace "bureaucrats in Brussle" with "bureaucrats in Washington" and you pretty much have a standard-issue GOP stump speech.

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Response to Adrahil (Reply #35)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 10:31 AM

58. That sounds like elitist drivel

The English apparently disagree with you that a tiny group of unelected well-placed 1%'ers are in any way equipped, capable, or deserving to dictate the terms of everyone elses' lives and financial affairs.

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Response to brentspeak (Reply #58)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 10:42 AM

67. Sure. Look at who voted how. This was not driven by concerns about the 1%.

 

This was a nativist/nationalist vote.

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Response to Adrahil (Reply #67)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 10:44 AM

69. Uh, can you back up whatever it was you just said?

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Response to brentspeak (Reply #69)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 12:43 PM

124. The leaders of the leave side were highly anti immigrant

 

The political parties in other countries heralding the leave vote are far right anti-immigration parties. Pretending this isn't about immigration is foolish.

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Response to mythology (Reply #124)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 03:43 PM

138. ^^^AMEN to this!^^^

 

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Response to TexasMommaWithAHat (Reply #29)

Sat Jun 25, 2016, 09:16 AM

144. Agree 100%

It's one thing for the EU to have negotiating power as a huge trading bloc. It's something else entirely to have an EU government that continuously interferes in the sovereignty of member nations.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #4)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 10:17 AM

43. Boris Johmson wants a UK that is a "hyper-capitalist island freed of EU regulations".

Indeed that does not sound like something that is going to benefit the working class.

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Response to TexasMommaWithAHat (Original post)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 09:31 AM

6. Meanwhile in political reality

 

Trump: Yes
Sanders: No
Farage: Yes
Corbyn: No

The vote broke down largely among ideological lines - racist white people butthurt about immigration, yes, everyone else, no. Sadly everyone else couldn't win the turnout battle. Also Remain won with young voters by a mile, and was supported by the most liberal sections of the UK (in fact Scotland is probably leaving the UK over this).

Stop carrying water for fascist ideologues in the guise of supporting the working class..

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Response to forjusticethunders (Reply #6)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 09:36 AM

9. Don't you think stuff like this

 

The working class resents that migrants can qualify for council (government) housing, while they remain on a wait list.

And the middle class resents that they can no longer get their foot on the bottom rung of the housing ladder due to a severe housing shortage.


is good reason to be upset? We ignore what happened yesterday at our peril.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #9)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 09:42 AM

14. So break everything since a couple of important things aren't perfect? REALLY?!

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Response to uponit7771 (Reply #14)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 10:08 AM

27. Do you always shove words into

 

other people's mouths when you have no argument to make?

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #27)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 10:12 AM

34. Wasn't being rhetorical, honest question... any answer? tia

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Response to uponit7771 (Reply #34)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 10:15 AM

40. I'm not British

 

so you're asking the wrong person. I think they cut off their noses to spite their faces but I'm not in any position to tell them they made a mistake. We ignore the problems people see with migrants and immigration at our peril. I'm not willing to shove my head in the sand in the name of political correctness.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #40)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 10:16 AM

41. "We ignore the problems people see with migrants and immigration at our peril"... WTF!?

I believe a diverse societies are stronger than homogenous ones

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Response to uponit7771 (Reply #41)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 10:18 AM

44. That's very PC of you

 

What the hell that has to do with the VERY real problems with housing and benefits that migrants and immigrants get before British citizens is a mystery.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #44)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 10:29 AM

54. OK if its PC as long as its rooted in reality and tells the truth, MOST societies that were for...

... immigration that didn't extort the immigrants in some way became stronger.

I don't see how in the UK the immigrants were extorted and again, if there's no critical mass of people getting more benefits than someone else then oh fucking well.

Fair and right are two different things even though they often coincide.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #44)

Sat Jun 25, 2016, 02:40 AM

142. Is it too PC of me to ask you to back up that claim with some evidence?

Y'know, the claim you've made several times in this thread that migrants get preference over everyone else when it comes to public housing. Have you got links to anything supporting that claim? It's just that I've had a look at eligibility requirements and it's very similar to where I live. Housing is allocated on a needs basis, and being a migrant isn't on the list.

http://england.shelter.org.uk/get_advice/social_housing/applying_for_social_housing/who_gets_priority

Also, here's an article I found about the housing crisis and the attempts to blame it on migrants. It reminds me of the stupid 'they're stealing our jobs!' crap that the RW anti-migrant types here used to blurt out about Asian migrants...

Is immigration causing the UK housing crisis?

Migrants aren’t jumping queues for social housing, and in some places immigration actually lowers housing demand

In a speech in December 2012, Theresa May claimed that more than a third of all new housing demand in Britain was caused by immigration. “And there is evidence that without the demand caused by mass immigration, house prices could be 10% lower over a 20-year period,” she said. The statement mirrors a common trope in any debate on the housing crisis: the idea that it is caused by mass migration, and that without migration, Britain would have no need for more housing.

The London School of Economics report that May cited as the source for her claim also says: “In the early years even better off migrants tend to form fewer households as compared to the indigenous population; to live disproportionately in private renting; and to live at higher densities. However, the longer they stay, the more their housing consumption resembles that of similar indigenous households.”

This, in part, debunks the idea that immigration is the biggest strain on housing – new arrivals tend to live in denser households and take up less space.

Few migrants live in social housing
Migrants are more likely to rent in the private sector, as opposed to buying homes or living in social housing. According to the Oxford Migration Observatory, 74% of recent migrants (those who have been in the UK for five years or less) were in the private rented sector in the first quarter of 2015: they are twice as likely to be renters compared with the total migrant population; 39% of the total foreign-born population were in the private rented sector, and just 14% of the UK-born population.

Despite this, there is a high perception among white Britons that migrants receive positive discrimination when it comes to social housing. A 2014 LSE discussion paper points out: “The level of discrimination perceived by white Britons in social housing is higher than that perceived by any other group in social housing. And the only other ethnic groups reporting higher levels of perceived discrimination with any part of the state is the black community with the police, criminal justice and immigration authorities, a relationship that we know to be very troubled.”

One Daily Mail headline from 2012, which has now been amended, once read: “Revealed: How HALF of all social housing in England goes to people born abroad”. The actual figure at the time was 8.6%: it now stands at 9%. Around 91% [pdf] of all new social tenancies are taken up by UK-born citizens.

http://www.theguardian.com/housing-network/2016/jan/25/is-immigration-causing-the-uk-housing-crisis

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Response to uponit7771 (Reply #41)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 10:40 AM

66. Evidence of this claim?

 

Syria is very diverse. Lebanon. South Africa.

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Response to AngryAmish (Reply #66)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 10:44 AM

68. America

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Response to uponit7771 (Reply #68)

Sat Jun 25, 2016, 09:29 AM

146. And yet it was also strong with Jim Crow.

You can't claim X is the reason for a fact if X started after the fact.

Meanwhile, Rwanda, Papua New Guinea, South Africa, Argentina, Russia. Assimilation, war, tension, genocide have been the standards when you get a lot of "diversity." It's not stable as long as every group gives more importance to its group identity than to an identity that units all the groups. But once you have that, you get assimilation because then the only different eventually becomes trivial differences like skin color or nose shape--there's nothing cultural keeping them separate.


The true "American exceptionalism" is thinking that in 4000 years of recorded history showing how identity groups (don't) get along we're suddenly different. Groups get along with there's something bigger and more important than the group you identify with that you either team up against or all embrace. Or when all the groups are conquered and equally unempowered, so that government acts as a referee and a distributor of favors that it controls.

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Response to Igel (Reply #146)

Sat Jun 25, 2016, 09:30 AM

147. Not as strong as it is without it

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #9)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 09:49 AM

20. The point is that they're blaming these problems on POC

 

instead of other political factors.

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Response to forjusticethunders (Reply #20)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 10:12 AM

33. THEIR point is

 

that migrants get government housing that the citizens have to wait for. You don't see a problem with that? I happen to think GB cut off their nose to spite their faces yesterday but to ignore the real issues is not smart.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #33)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 10:14 AM

39. That's usually cover for human tribalism, I don't see an issue with that if there's no critical mass

... of it happening to the point that it hurts the avg Brit.

Not fair but may be right looking at who it helps vs who it hurts

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Response to uponit7771 (Reply #39)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 10:17 AM

42. With the British pound crashing

 

it's going to hurt the middle class and poor much more than anyone else (the rich will always find a way to survive, even if they have to move). I would think the vote yesterday is the very definition of critical mass.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #42)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 10:30 AM

57. I'm talking about the immigration unfairness outlined in your response... not the Brexit vote

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Response to uponit7771 (Reply #39)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 10:26 AM

51. But it is at critical mass

Britain has a severe housing shortage - public and private.

And what housing is available is very expensive.

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Response to TexasMommaWithAHat (Reply #51)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 10:32 AM

59. It wasn't this way BEFORE "immigrants"? tia... I remember when I lived in Europe UK housing was....

... always at the San Francisco level.

It was atrocious mostly cause they didn't like urban sprawl that we allow here.

Blaming this on immigrants sounds like human tribalism knowing the facts

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Response to uponit7771 (Reply #59)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 10:49 AM

71. Well, I lived in England

and while London has always been extremely expensive, it certainly wasn't at San Francisco levels then or when I've visited.

The British government holds a lot of the blame for the housing situation.

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Response to TexasMommaWithAHat (Reply #71)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 10:51 AM

72. You have any evidence that the expensive housing was caused by immigrants? tia

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Response to uponit7771 (Reply #72)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 11:01 AM

85. Multiple reasons, actually

Last edited Fri Jun 24, 2016, 12:15 PM - Edit history (1)

1) Wealthy "foreigners" are buying up real estate in London as fast as it goes on the market as investments or second homes (or third, fourth, fifth..)

2) The UK is highly bureaucratic in its own right when it comes to new build.

3) The conservative government sold council housing to renters who could afford to buy their own home and aren't replacing those council homes with new build. Projects are in the works, but construction projects move very slowly in Britain.

4) And an influx of immigrants is putting pressure at the lower end of the housing situation, as well.

I listen to BBC news a lot and peruse their on-line publications.

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Response to TexasMommaWithAHat (Reply #85)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 11:02 AM

87. A link would suite me better than claims, tia

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Response to TexasMommaWithAHat (Reply #51)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 10:54 AM

77. Who's responsible for that?

Clue: It's not the EU. And it's not immigrants. But let's not point fingers at the real culprits, that would be so gauche.

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Response to Denzil_DC (Reply #77)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 11:07 AM

89. See my post 85. Multiple reasons for housing shortage

I may not fully understand the reasons for the housing shortage, but I do know there are multiple reasons for it. See my post 85.

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Response to TexasMommaWithAHat (Reply #89)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 11:28 AM

94. Well, for start, you can trace the shortage of social housing to the Thatcher years.

Generally, Conservative voters owned their houses while Labour voters rented social (a.k.a. council) housing. So a big sell-off was instigated. It was social engineering on a grand scale: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14380936

The council houses sold at knockdown prices to the tenants - so low that people would have had to be crazy or very principled indeed not to snap them up - were not replaced with new stock. Hell, councils weren't even allowed to spend the money from the sales on repairs to the remaining council house stock, they had to use it to pay down borrowing instead.

It's suited successive governments since to stimulate a housing shortage, by going slow on new private house building and making relatively little social housing provision, because a lot of people became very invested in owning their own houses rather than renting, partly for status reasons, but mainly hooked on the idea of easy money because they could just pay a mortgage and the property they lived in would appreciate in value at an alarming rate. Alleviating that housing shortage would drive prices down, so it's seldom been any sort of priority because the new aspirant middle class wouldn't like that. Until it periodically becomes such a crisis that it can't be ignored: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/sep/27/the-guardian-view-on-housing-policy-britain-must-face-home-truths

Now, having identified some of the root causes, maybe you could explain what "migrants" are allowed to jump social housing allocation lists? I mean, you must have a source for that, right? I couldn't get a council house myself when I could have used one years ago because there just weren't any available unless you had existing family ties to the area, and I was in effect an immigrant, though not a visually identifiable one.

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Response to Denzil_DC (Reply #94)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 11:38 AM

98. I believe I very simply said the same thing

And I didn't say that migrants jump the queue. However, when Brits can't get housing but see migrants in council housing, it creates resentment among some people.

Do you not agree with that?

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Response to TexasMommaWithAHat (Reply #98)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 11:57 AM

110. Maybe it's because I read your OP:

The working class resents that migrants can qualify for council (government) housing, while they remain on a wait list.


Perhaps it's just a question of phrasing, but that sounds like queue-jumping. Whatever.

Happening to have lived in the UK all my life and just witnessed the referendum in situ, I'm bemused that you can be so categorical in your OP that you've identified why 52% in the UK voted Leave. We have actual post-referendum polls already that rank the reasons people have given. In Sunderland, for instance, an area with serious issues of deprivation, the immigrant presence is negligible, but people still gave immigration as the primary reason for voting Leave. Seems like something else is going on there ...

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Response to Denzil_DC (Reply #110)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 12:12 PM

118. Yes, something is going on

Sunderland voted for leave, despite the fact that they have few immigrants. However, the people of Sunderland do know that with increased population, more money will have to be spent on education, the NHS, housing allowance, etc. The pie is only so big, and they want a bigger part of the pie for themselves. No????? How does immigration help them?

I'm just saying that reducing the "leave" vote to matters of racism/xenophobia only is simplistic.

Personally, I think things are going to be a big mess, and I don't envy ya'll.

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Response to TexasMommaWithAHat (Reply #118)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 12:48 PM

126. But this is the myth of austerity used to promote good old divide and conquer tactics.

Take a look at this to see the simple spreadsheet error that's fuelled this so convenient fixation on the need for austerity in the latest phase of what can only be described as a class war: How a dodgy spreadsheet and a bad joke created the Tory austerity lie

How does immigration help them? - Don't immigrants spend money? Don't they buy food and goods and services? That money goes round and round. If they earn enough, they'll pay tax. They'll pay National Insurance. If they buy VAT-rated goods and services, they'll pay tax. The pie is actually elastic. Even the Tories' archetypal scapegoats, the dole scroungers (say, some of those very people in Sunderland), are economically active.

Our central bank just this morning splurged £250,000,000 to stop the pound tanking. I'd imagine there's more to come. The pie's pretty damn big when it suits the government (and feathers their pals' and their nests). Ever heard of Trident? The Chunnel? The Millennium Dome?

As for an increased population, we actually need population increase. I'm in Scotland. We have an ageing population profile. Same goes for the rest of the country as birth rates decline. In my local area, we have schools that are closing or perpetually threatened with closure because they don't have enough children attending them. We have empty social housing nobody wanted to live in on the Isle of Bute that we've used to house Syrian asylum seeker families. We need younger generations to pay into the pot to support the old age pensions some folks may live long enough to eventually claim if they're not abolished altogether. Heaven forbid, I may need some younger person to help me with my daily needs if I don't die relatively young. I doubt I'd actually be bothered what part of the world they might have come from.

Your argument might be more persuasive if we didn't have post-referendum polls that show that xenophobia - antipathy to immigration - was the main issue that people said led them to vote Leave. It may be uncomfortable to acknowledge that, but that doesn't make it untrue. It isn't the only reason, but it really is quite simple. And factions in Leave weren't promoting that with dogwhistles, they had dirty great posters and shouty spokes spreading it all over our media for the past few months.

And guess what? As somebody living in Scotland, I'm firmly in the sights of some of them too, on very similar grounds to those you've mentioned applying to immigrants. Because I'm Other. A scapegoat. Because they believe economic lies about how my country relates to the rest of the UK and who pays for what and how much, who's leeching off whom etc. etc. Please don't excuse them or try to explain all this away.

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Response to Denzil_DC (Reply #126)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 12:59 PM

129. I disagree about the taxes.

Re poor immigrants: a married couple with two kids in school take more than they give. The taxes they pay might cover the education of their kids, and not much more.

Then there's a housing allowance, the NHS, etc., and they are not net givers.

The benefits of immigration re taxes will likely be seen among the next generation assuming they get an education and become productive members of society.

Anyway, as long as a vote against immigration is understood as racist against the immigrants themselves, instead of a vote against the effects of immigration, you won't win their votes.

The fact is that the working class in the first world has been hit hard by the free movement of people, capital, and labor. and will vote in their own self interest or - at least - their own perceived self interest.

Hope that makes sense.

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Response to TexasMommaWithAHat (Reply #129)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 01:28 PM

134. In my locality, that's just not true.

With our depleted class sizes, for instance, it costs no more to employ a teacher, provide a classroom and heat and clean it for ten pupils than it does for one pupil. There are some other costs (we're unusual up here because kids get free school dinners whatever the parents' income on the basis of universality promoting social cohesion), but given widespread cutbacks in provision of schoolbooks etc., they're marginal. Immigrants can actually help keep our schools open.

As for some of the other things you mention, a society has to invest in people in order to reap the benefits they can bring, but you're assuming immigrants will need to claim housing allowance etc., which isn't necessarily the case. And even if they are, it's still economic activity. It ultimately puts money in others' pockets, and the great dance continues. Immigrants generally are quite high achievers academically from reports I've studied, because they're quite strongly motivated.

You can't separate the myths about the effects of immigration from attitudes toward the immigrants themselves, because of what lies behind them. You have to tackle the myths. That's the challenge.

Guess what? People from the UK migrate too. For economic reasons, among others, including mass retirement in Spain, where they have avery poor record of integration: none of the media has covered the ramifications of this result for the 700,000 Brits currently settled in Spain yet. If they have to repatriate, we really will have some problems.

If we want our people to be able to live abroad, we can't just slam the shutters on our own country. Leave actually acknowledges this, as today they've openly admitted that exit from the EU won't reduce immigration levels. So your "self-interested working class" just missed the target and shot themselves - and the rest of us who don't see things that way - in the feet in this case.

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Response to Denzil_DC (Reply #134)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 04:50 PM

140. Same for a lot of immigrants in this country

Many immigrants are strongly motivated to succeed in school.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #33)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 11:00 AM

83. The problem is they're just factually wrong

It's like complaints about SNAP and TANF in the US: it might be a valid worry, if the factual basis weren't complete bullshit. But it is.

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Response to forjusticethunders (Reply #20)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 10:19 AM

45. EU migrants are almost all white

Leaving the EU will do nothing to change Indian subcontinent or Caribbean immigration policies.

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Response to whatthehey (Reply #45)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 10:27 AM

52. Thank you!

nt

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Response to whatthehey (Reply #45)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 10:35 AM

62. Semantics, they stoked human tribalism to get the leave vote... who cares the shade of skin and

... the "they're taking shit from us" attitude is something this country see's and usually loathes.

No one is posting empirical evidence of how "immigrants" have made life worse for brit just like the tribalist in this country usually don't

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Response to uponit7771 (Reply #62)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 10:38 AM

65. I don't think correcting an assumption about "POC" is just semantics really.

Immigrants long term don't typically make things worse, regardless of skin color (not that I'm sure what you are trying to refute or complain about here, certainly nothing I posted.) Japan is exhibit A for why.

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Response to whatthehey (Reply #65)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 10:52 AM

74. the subthread related to immigrants whether they'er PoC or not its the bases of human...

... tribalism that was stocked to garner the vote for Brexit leave.

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Response to uponit7771 (Reply #74)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 10:54 AM

76. You do know posts are linked to the one they responded to right?

Read the one I responded to before you pontificate.

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Response to whatthehey (Reply #76)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 10:56 AM

79. "EU migrants are almost all white"... was not a counter to the point involving PoC? tia

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Response to uponit7771 (Reply #79)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 10:57 AM

80. Of course it was! And they are NOT POC. How fucking simpler can I make it?

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Response to whatthehey (Reply #45)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 11:55 AM

109. true

So the idiots who voted leave won't even get an immigrant-free country. I'd laugh if it wasn't so pathetic.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #9)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 11:49 AM

104. the housing lists are based on need and family situation

I don't know about you, but I'd rather that crisis cases were housed first. And housing benefit is available t o anyone who qualifies - you're just talking about the limited number of council homes - of which there'd be far more if the Tories hadn't sold them off to buy votes.

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Response to PaulaFarrell (Reply #104)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 11:50 AM

105. I agree. See post 85

nt

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Response to forjusticethunders (Reply #6)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 09:40 AM

13. +1, Trump and Putin supported Brexit ... bout all I need to know about it

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Response to uponit7771 (Reply #13)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 10:20 AM

46. This claim appears to be untrue!

 

However if you have a lonmk please share!

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Response to Silver_Witch (Reply #46)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 10:24 AM

49. link... "weak economies" has always been his position even though he didn't weigh on it during this

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Response to uponit7771 (Reply #49)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 10:58 AM

82. So the above post is untrue as I said!!

 

People love the sky is falling. Amazing to me!!!

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Response to TexasMommaWithAHat (Original post)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 09:34 AM

8. Envy and anger are great motivators that solve nothing

Is there a policy prescription other than closing down borders? Face it, without immigration at the center of this vote, it would never have gotten off the ground. That matters, because the next PM will have to make appeasing the Leave voters a priority, and catering to fear is a bad starting point for any government.

The UK has enormous impact on Europe and the world. I'm rooting for a constructive outcome. I'm not seeing the seeds of it in that article.

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Response to BeyondGeography (Reply #8)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 11:15 AM

91. The article wasn't about solutions

It was a very, very simple analysis of why I thought Brexit voters voted the way they did.

I understand why they voted for Brexit, but I think they should have waited. Personally, I think things might have hit critical mass at some not too distant future with more and more countries unhappy with the way that the EU is governed, and the EU could have then been reworked.

What is your opinion on that?

Cameron gambled and lost with this referendum, unfortunately.

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Response to TexasMommaWithAHat (Reply #91)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 11:39 AM

99. My opinion is it's a stressful time in Europe and political profiteering

is a poor substitute for the muddling through and hard work that is always preferable to blowing things up without a plan.

But it is done. A positive outcome for the EU would be to reform itself, but that's not the real problem here. There is much about the EU that people actually enjoy and have come to take for granted. People will see that when firms bolt Britain, when the price of many things rise such as airfares, international cellphone use or a wide range of other multi-jurisdictional activities. I have friends in the trade show business in London who are shitting themselves over the prospect of higher freight costs and longer exhibitor shipping times for every major event they do.

Without a raging refugee crisis none of this would have happened. On a surface level, the Brits are the biggest pissers and moaners on the planet. It's never just raining, it's pissing rain. People don't have disagreements, they have massive rows. Exaggeration is sport; that's how they blow off steam and it works for them. But too many have obviously lost their way over immigration and they're not alone. In order to avoid further such cock-ups, the flow of political refugees into Europe has to be reduced to a fraction of its present levels or Brexit will be just the first chapter in a long tale of woe.

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Response to TexasMommaWithAHat (Original post)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 09:37 AM

11. You're messing up the poutrage...

... of people who want to believe this vote is not a rebuke to the authoritarians who have fucked up every thing they have touched.

Guess what, being anti-immigrant makes a lot of sense when being pro-immigrant means you can't find a place to live.

It's the economy, stupid - one thing Bill Clinton got right.

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Response to sendero (Reply #11)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 09:49 AM

21. Donald Trump thanks you for your vote.

 

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Response to forjusticethunders (Reply #21)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 09:52 AM

22. Only stupid people...

... are against something because someone else is for it.

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Response to sendero (Reply #22)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 09:54 AM

23. The point is that the "white working class anti-establishment populism" thing is

 

in many cases a fig leaf for outright racism through the vehicle of blaming POC for their problems.

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Response to forjusticethunders (Reply #23)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 10:00 AM

26. Oh, for goodness' sake.

I guess the Polish are brown.

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Response to forjusticethunders (Reply #23)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 11:02 AM

86. Your insinuation is insulting

Your implication is that liberal progressives, who are not all "working-class whites", are closet racist???

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Response to angrychair (Reply #86)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 02:19 AM

155. No, I'm insuiating that a lot of what is driving "populist anger"

 

is racism and progressives are desperate for a quick fix to their inability to organize effectively so they ignore this, and just assume it's against the "establishment" or the banks or capitalists when in reality this anger is only against the establishment insofar as it allows for "THOSE PEOPLE" to have the same access to economic resources as white people.

The Brexit voters were by and large, xenophobes at BEST who hated the EU because of "multiculturalism" which is a dogwhistle for "not white" or at the very least "not British".

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Response to forjusticethunders (Reply #23)

Sat Jun 25, 2016, 03:48 PM

154. Poles are POC? (n/t)

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Response to sendero (Reply #22)

Sat Jun 25, 2016, 10:56 AM

149. +1000

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Response to TexasMommaWithAHat (Original post)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 09:40 AM

12. Trump and Putin supported Brexit ... bout all I need to know about it

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Response to TexasMommaWithAHat (Original post)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 09:44 AM

15. Thanks

 

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Response to TexasMommaWithAHat (Original post)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 09:49 AM

19. Congrats on one of the few posts that addressed the issues.

Too many here are typical American slogan thinkers. Your OP is so much better than the "UK are racists" - simple bumper sticker explanation thrown around here.

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Response to FLPanhandle (Reply #19)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 11:30 AM

95. +1 Agree. nt

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Response to TexasMommaWithAHat (Original post)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 09:57 AM

24. Brexit supported by Trump. Enuf said!

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Response to leftofcool (Reply #24)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 12:04 PM

114. No, that's not enough. And it's no substitute for thought.

 

Just being 'against whatever Trump said' is not reasoning.

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Response to TexasMommaWithAHat (Original post)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 10:08 AM

28. Uh huh. Or just racism, mostly.

 

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Response to TexasMommaWithAHat (Original post)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 10:10 AM

30. Great post!!

Actual thoughts, not just a bunch of knee jerk slogans.

Well Done

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Response to Kilgore (Reply #30)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 10:13 AM

37. I lived in England

and my husband talks with Brits almost every day. (His employer has an office there.)

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Response to TexasMommaWithAHat (Reply #37)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 10:47 AM

70. Same experience

My brother is working in southern England on temporary assignment and he tells me the EU electric kettle, and toaster ban is a huge deal.

Mess with their tea, and the fight is on!!

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Response to Kilgore (Reply #70)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 10:54 AM

75. Tea kettle absurdity

It's such a little thing, really, but it also proves the lengths to which the EU has control over the UK. A lot of people are just fed up. Let's face it, even most of the people who voted "remain" are very unhappy with the EU.

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Response to TexasMommaWithAHat (Reply #75)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 11:35 AM

96. "Tea kettle absurdity" - Yep, we wouldn't put up with something like that here in the US - Oh

wait, we do have that "incandescent" light-bulb (of a certain wattage) ban...

Otherwise, thank you for a well-reasoned post.


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Response to jonno99 (Reply #96)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 11:39 AM

100. Back at you.

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Response to TexasMommaWithAHat (Reply #37)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 11:51 AM

106. i live in England

And everyone here knows what this is about - immigrants.

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Response to PaulaFarrell (Reply #106)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 11:54 AM

108. I would more accurately describe that

as the effects of immigration on the social compact between the British government and the British people.

I think very few people voted because they are against the immigrants as people.

In fact, if you believe that 52% of the voters voted for racist reasons as opposed to rational self interest, then you have a very poor opinion of the British.

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Response to TexasMommaWithAHat (Reply #108)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 12:00 PM

112. i have a realistic view

Some are incredibly xenophobic, and the majority at least a bit. many are lovely of course, but they all voted remain.

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Response to TexasMommaWithAHat (Original post)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 10:11 AM

31. Good analysis. Same thing here, but they won't listen.

 

K&R

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Response to TexasMommaWithAHat (Original post)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 10:12 AM

32. and the media is presenting this saying it is all about immigration.

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Response to TexasMommaWithAHat (Original post)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 10:13 AM

36. In other words it's a mix of Sanders AND Trump voters concerns

Interesting. I know that in Cornwall they're angry about the wealthy coming in and buying up second homes while locals are suffering a housing shortage. They want to ban this practice. Housing is hugely expensive there driven up by the elite class.

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Response to flamingdem (Reply #36)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 11:07 AM

88. Yes, it's the same in Wales.

Wealthy people from other parts of the UK buying holiday homes that sit empty for nine months at a time, when that home could house someone from the community.

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Response to flamingdem (Reply #36)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 02:45 PM

136. I have a cousin in Cornwall

Housing is a huge issue. Plus he said (years ago) that the locals can't find jobs in traditional occupations there such as fishing because Polish immigrants work cheaply and get all the jobs.

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Response to Freddie (Reply #136)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 03:11 PM

137. Didn't know about that

Poland is in a crisis, I bet they'll accept extremely low wages. We can understand in cases like this why the vote went the way it did.

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Response to TexasMommaWithAHat (Original post)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 10:14 AM

38. This is why Socialism doesn't work

As soon as "other people" start getting benefits, everyone screams bloody murder. Humanity has to evolve to a point where they overcome tribalism and xenophobia. We're slowly getting there, but we are not there yet.

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Response to Yavin4 (Reply #38)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 10:23 AM

48. The problem here isn't socialism; it's globalization.

Which destroys the middle class.

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Response to RDANGELO (Reply #48)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 10:25 AM

50. The problem here is that "other people" are getting benefits

Sure, govt benefits are great when they go to a certain class of people, and they're awful if some other class of people get something. That's what kills socialism dead in its tracks.

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Response to Yavin4 (Reply #50)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 10:29 AM

53. The uk has the worst income inequality in the world except for the US.

If they had a strong economy with a strong middle class, they wouldn't have to pay out so many benefits.

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Response to RDANGELO (Reply #53)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 10:30 AM

55. Brexit won because of xenophobia

It won in areas with immigration. Paint it however you want.

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Response to Yavin4 (Reply #55)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 10:51 AM

73. The xenophobia point is true, we have polls that prove it.

It also won in areas with next to no immigration, such as Sunderland. Because people had bought into the media-spread xenophobic scapegoating myths this OP continues to propagate.

How many immigrants are given public housing over the needs of locals? Do you think the OP knows? Does she know the root cause of the UK's housing shortage? I strongly doubt it. This is just glib excuse-making mounted on a high horse.

And that's from somebody who was born and lives in the UK, not just someone with a husband has contacts there who's visited for a while, but whatever.

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Response to Yavin4 (Reply #38)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 10:33 AM

60. It's why growth is required, whether that's capitalism, or socialism, or whatever

As long as people get what they want/need, everything can be sort of cool. When we start having to deal with limits, and having to make choices, that's when things start to get messy. We, humans, aren't good at making those choices. We can't agree on what's fair. It causes a lot of problems. That's why the economy always has to grow, regardless of what happens to the planet.

Humanity has to evolve to a point where they overcome tribalism and xenophobia. We're slowly getting there, but we are not there yet.


I would say the only reason we've even come as close as we have to that is because of the energy that has been made available to more and more people. Those energy resources cause environmental issues, but without them, we're going to be more tribal. Why? Because for the vast majority of human history, we've been tribal. That's how we're built. We didn't evolve and adapt in a global society environment. It's really only been what, half a century or so? Globalization has been happening since civilization started, but for the most part, it's been through violence that it's progressed.

We're a tribal species, that has developed the ability to exploit the hell out of a lot of energy. Unfortunately, we live within physical reality, and it has limits.

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Response to The2ndWheel (Reply #60)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 12:39 PM

122. I would add communication to your energy argument

Our increased ability to travel the globe and talk to people any where on the globe is helping us evolve as humans. We're learning about the beauty of other cultures as well as the ugliness of some cultures.

In the end, Marx is right. However, we have to evolve as a species to a higher level of being for his theories to work.

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Response to TexasMommaWithAHat (Original post)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 10:22 AM

47. So, because racism and white privilege

Thanks for clearing that up.

Apologists for xenophobia and racism need to really go home and look in the mirror for a long time.

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Response to frazzled (Reply #47)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 10:33 AM

61. Vast majority of EU immigrants are white

Most of the non white immigrants come through non eu migration which Britain has control over (India, Pakistan, Caribbean, etc).

Believe it or not part of the leave campaign argument was some one from Romania has free reign to enter UK without any ties but someone from the common wealth with strong historical ties to the UK has to jump through hoops.

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Response to frazzled (Reply #47)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 11:53 AM

107. Is a desire to stop immigration always racist?

I can understand a desire to keep things "as is." It doesn't occur to me that that is necessarily a racist thing.

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Response to David__77 (Reply #107)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 12:18 PM

120. It's most certainly bigotry

Look at the history of violent anti-immigrant sentiment in this country: always based on the idea that they were dirty or criminal or taking jobs or benefits away. Whether it was the Irish escaping the famine or the Chinese coming to work on the railroads, or the Jews escaping pogroms and discrimination (and later, extermination), or the Mexicans (insert as well people from India or the Middle East). Each of those waves of immigrants contributed much to our country and took away little, and each has integrated into the core of American society with a generation or two.

As for race, here is what a friend of ours in Britain, is quoted as saying several days before the Brexit vote:

“Brexit is one of those reminders for people like me that one can’t afford to be too Hegelian about questions of white supremacy and racial privilege,” he said, when asked. “You can’t afford to think there’s some curve that’s endlessly leading to a state of affection, because just when we think that, what disappears is a certain kind of vigilance. It serves to remind you also of the perils of assuming that narratives die.”

https://www.artsy.net/article/artsy-editorial-john-akomfrah-reawakens-history-in-chillingly-beautiful-new-films


Of course, he is an immigrant of sorts, having been born in Ghana, and an intellectual and an artist and a leftist. An "expert," in other words, for whom the "leave" lovers have no regard.

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Response to TexasMommaWithAHat (Original post)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 10:30 AM

56. Thank YOU!

I am so sick of the stupid, knee jerk charges of racism that are so common on this board. Sometimes toeing the PC line is the lazy way out.

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Response to smirkymonkey (Reply #56)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 11:41 AM

101. Typical of Americans

There is this assumption that the way we see things must be the way everyone else sees them. Thus, the world is divided up into racist white people whose motivations must always be questioned and oppressed POC who are always correct and cannot be criticized (because that would be racist) and everything is shoved into this paradigm. It doesn't allow for the possibility that this is a simplistic analysis and that others may not carve their world up that way.

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Response to TexasMommaWithAHat (Original post)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 10:35 AM

63. thanks

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Response to TexasMommaWithAHat (Original post)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 10:38 AM

64. People all over the world are fucking pissed at the systems of corruption.

 

All over the world. Wake up people, the revolution is afoot.

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Response to TexasMommaWithAHat (Original post)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 10:56 AM

78. Britain is the 5th largest economy

 

They don't need bankers controlling their nation.

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Response to TexasMommaWithAHat (Original post)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 11:00 AM

84. Those in England who can't afford to retire in France

are retiring in Wales, pushing the price of housing up and pricing out locals.

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Response to geardaddy (Reply #84)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 11:10 AM

90. Thanks for that.

I know the sale of council housing and the lack of new build is a real problem, as well as construction red tape.

See post 85.

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Response to TexasMommaWithAHat (Original post)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 11:21 AM

92. This is going to be a mess! And ...

... it was supported by UKIP and the far-rightwing anti-immigrant factions
across Europe.

It was sold as a pro-worker referendum, but it's really a pro-corporatist,
anti-immigrant deal.

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Response to TexasMommaWithAHat (Original post)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 11:26 AM

93. TPP played directly into this

why are we suddenly pro TPP I don't know. I'm not.

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Response to TexasMommaWithAHat (Original post)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 11:36 AM

97. You nailed it

 

I lived in Britain as well. For three years. And I talked with friends there about this.

Everyone going, "but whhhhyy?" This morning clearly never spoke to a British citizen.

And people going "well, racists!"

Dumbasses. Talk to someone for a change.

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Response to Prism (Reply #97)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 11:48 AM

102. Shows how out of touch people are

with the working class.

If you don't understand why people vote the way they do, you won't change their vote.

Yeah, some real dumbasses, for sure.

That's right. If leaders are unwilling to admit the difficulties caused by immigration on the working classes (as opposed to seeing racism only), then it comes at their peril.

And it did.

Yesterday.

The so-called free movement of people, capital and labor has been a disaster for the working classes in the first world and if those problems aren't addressed, then you get these results.

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Response to TexasMommaWithAHat (Original post)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 12:01 PM

113. More upper middleclass types shouting 'racist' at everyone who disagrees with their

 

free trade policies. Weirdly familiar.

And doubly strange to see the same types here, suggesting the Brits who voted to leave the EU are just racists.

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Response to Marr (Reply #113)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 12:14 PM

119. Exactly

Lots of the same talking points in synchronicity.

Just as in "patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel", Faux progressivism in the defense of plutocracy is equally loathsome.

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Response to TexasMommaWithAHat (Original post)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 12:05 PM

115. Time for the Brexit voters to reread Animal Farm...for the umpteenth time.

 

Round and round we go.

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Response to TexasMommaWithAHat (Original post)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 12:09 PM

117. you are quoting the Telegraph

That's like quoting Fox. Those energy efficiency regulations as necessary to meet climate change targets - another area where the uk on its own is shite. And in spite of it supposedly being a big deal, the first I have heard of it is today on du. But then I don't read the daily mail or the sun - or the telegraph.

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Response to PaulaFarrell (Reply #117)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 01:04 PM

131. There was a big fuss a year or so ago

because the dreaded "EU regulations" were going to outlaw vacuum cleaners over a certain wattage. The RW press was all over it. Many people, having griped about it a whole lot, insisted on buying new high-wattage vacuum cleaners before the regs came into force whether they need them or not.

In fact, the EU had mandated manufacturers to increase the efficiency of vacuum cleaners so you got more suck per buck, cleaning just as well while using less energy, costing the owners less for electricity!

I'd imagine this Telegraph story will turn out to be much like that.

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Response to Denzil_DC (Reply #131)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 01:25 PM

133. i don't read the rw rags

Still, not one person in real life mentioned it to me. Storm in a teacup and just the usual suspects whipping up anti EU sentiment. Now if only they do that about Ttip.

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Response to TexasMommaWithAHat (Original post)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 12:22 PM

121. K&R.

 

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Response to TexasMommaWithAHat (Original post)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 01:03 PM

130. Thanks for posting this.

Most of my friends in Britain opposed the Brexit and I'm sorry that is passed, but this article at least hints at the complexities of why it happened.

I'm also grimacing at people whose understanding of the situation can be encompassed in either "Racism!!!!!!!!!" or "Trump supported it, so bad!!!!!" This is a political website, understanding complexities should second nature to posters here.

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Response to TexasMommaWithAHat (Original post)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 03:48 PM

139. they were also lied to by the 'leave' campaign.....

Nigel Farage Says £350 Million NHS Pledge Made By The Leave Campaign Was A “Mistake”


UKIP leader Nigel Farage has said the Leave campaign’s claim there would be an extra £350 million a week to spend on the NHS if Britain voted to leave the EU was a “mistake”.

The claim was one of the key statements made by the official Vote Leave campaign, and it was used in adverts and emblazoned on the side of the campaign bus.

During an interview on ITV’s Good Morning Britain on Friday morning, after Britain voted to leave the EU, Farage was asked whether he could guarantee that the £350 million sent to the EU would now go the NHS.

Farage answered: “No I can’t. I would never have made that claim. That was one of the mistakes made by the Leave campaign.”



https://www.buzzfeed.com/rossalynwarren/nigel-farage-says-the-million-pledge-to-fund-the-nhs-w?utm_term=.iuRKlOJ4#.rfE1YPNr


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Response to TexasMommaWithAHat (Original post)

Sat Jun 25, 2016, 09:11 AM

143. If Dems get one message from this Brexit vote it should be..

The Labour Party's message to their supposed working class base missed completely. People chose to rally around the "Leave" message instead, as destructive as it may turn out to be.

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Response to TexasMommaWithAHat (Original post)

Sat Jun 25, 2016, 09:20 AM

145. It's going to get scary down the line.

This OP is a glib gross oversimplification by somebody who doesn't even live in the UK. The fact it's got 60 recs from a mainly American board is a bit depressing, but not surprising.

The elements of truth in it are what make the future scary.

Yes, political forces in the UK have successfully fooled whole areas of the UK that their problems are down to the EU and immigrants, not the nonsensical austerity measures or long years of deliberate neglect, underinvestment and wasteful mismanagement of the economy in pursuit of the fetish of Thatcherism.

When eventually there's been whatever sort of clampdown may result from new measures to restrict immigrants (not that the Leave side seriously believe that their winning is going to do much to reduce numbers, as they've now admitted after the result), but EXACTLY THE SAME PROBLEMS STILL EXIST, who do you think the next scapegoats are going to be?

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Response to TexasMommaWithAHat (Original post)

Sat Jun 25, 2016, 09:58 AM

148. 75% of the younger group wanted to stay because they grew up in the freedom to travel to

neighbor countries, live there, work there, get medical care under national health plan and attend university there.

It's impossible to buy a home in the home country UK, it's like NYC prices if any ever come for sale. All rentals with high prices, the older generation owns those properties.

It takes about two years for all the European Union 'treaties' and 'agreements' for the UK to be canceled officially. I read the EU website and their regulations) Wonder if there will be another vote next year?

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Response to TexasMommaWithAHat (Original post)

Sat Jun 25, 2016, 11:47 AM

151. are there any brits or americans in england here

here who can tell me if england is plagued by rw talk radio/

can't be as bad as here and cant be as big a monopoly as here but just wondering.

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Response to TexasMommaWithAHat (Original post)

Sat Jun 25, 2016, 02:25 PM

153. austerity did not help.

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