Woman Who Spanked Her Children With Belt After She Caught Them Stealing Gets Arrested And Sets Off..

[Purveyor]

Woman Who Spanked Her Children With Belt After She Caught Them Stealing Gets Arrested And Sets Off Firestorm Of Debate

LOS ANGELES (CBSLA.com) — A woman spanked her children after she says she caught them stealing and her subsequent arrest has touched off a firestorm about spanking, discipline, parental rights and abuse.

The question is — how much is too much?

The single mother of six apparently found out that three of her kids (boys ages 10-13) broke into a neighbor’s house and stole property. After spanking the kids with a belt, she was taken to jail and her other children removed from her home.

Schaquana Evita Spears was quick to justify her actions on a local TV station.

“Everything I do is for my kids, and because I didn’t want them to commit another crime,” She also added, she could not “live” without her children.

more...

http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2016/06/24/woman-who-spanked-her-children-with-belt-after-she-caught-them-stealing-gets-arrested-and-sets-off-firestorm-of-debate/

[anoNY42]

1. Leaving marks

A different story I read yesterday mentioned that she left marks.

[Seeinghope]

5. As bad as this sound, sometimes when spanking kids that old they don't sit stil and are "dancing"

around which means the belt can end up landing anywhere and making marks. Maybe some people don't believe in corporal punishment and that is their right but the kids were older and knew better. If they were caught and went to a detention home that may have been far worse.

I grew up in a time when, in a situation like this, the belt would not be questioned. In fact I had a 1st grade teacher that had paddles. Now a day parents rights have been totally undermined and kids are supposed to be treated like China dolls. They play a sport and everyone on the team has to get an award because ther should not be a "loser". Dress codes can hardly be enforced because individuality needs to be able to be "expressed". School is a place to learn and get prepared for real life. No wonder kids are having difficulty as adults.

Authority has been turned upside down. The family unit is being destroyed.

This woman and those children are dealing with the influence of social media, television, a society getting it's values screwed up and no realistic view of what is taking place around them.

BTW. This is coming from a liberal.

[anoNY42]

21. Destroying the family unit

Sounds pretty Republican to me. I was not whipped as a child and I still respected authority.

[Demit]

28. You apparently think everybody is a clone of you.

They're not.

[LanternWaste]

35. I'd inaccurately infer as much also to if it validated my biases.

I'd inaccurately infer as much also to if it validated my biases.

[840high]

131. I was spanked and side

with this Mom. Spanking i better than jail.

[cornball 24]

23. I'm right there with you-as a liberal. Thank you for your wisdom!

A mother of six raising her children alone while working who is trying to keep her children on track is losing her family to a broken system. Well ain't that just great!! Obviously, she is a perfect target for those who have never walked in her shoes. I am sickened by the harsh judgment in many of the responses on D.U.

[kcr]

39. Yeah, it's so hard to understand why people would harshly judge vicious beatings of children.

Why does anyone think that's so awful? Some people. Those people should DEFINITELY be judged.

[cornball 24]

53. VICIOUS! First time I heard or read that

word used to describe the situation. Not sarcasm!

[kcr]

85. Really!?

Wow! Amazing!!!!!!!!! Everyone has their first time experiencing things, and it's wonderous amazement. Glad I could expand your horizons.

[cornball 24]

115. Perhaps you should be on the Trump Train

as you pontificate about expanding my "horizons". Ain't you jes the e-pity-me of no-ledge! Yawn!

[kcr]

118. I apologize

I must have misunderstood. I thought you meant it was first time you heard vicious when referring to a beating with a belt. That seemed to be the gist of your post. But, clearly, I was wrong.

[Shrike47]

83. Vicious? I've seen cases of children beaten to death. This was perhaps abusive, but vicious?

[kcr]

86. I'm glad I haven't been so hardened, then.

I've thankfully never seen a child beaten to death. Most people haven't. Yes, beatings with belts that leave marks are brutal. If your definition of vicious leaves out brutal, well. I know which bar I think should be used.

[adigal]

89. Vicious?? Good Lord, my parents would have been in jail then!!!!

Instead, they raised three kids who all graduated college and have worked and contributed all of their lives and never had any trouble with the law.

I would have been MUCH better in a foster home doing it for the money. Right.

[kcr]

93. Maybe they might have been!!!

Goodness, if only there could be a time machine.....

[adigal]

104. That is just really offensive and asshole-ish to say

My parents were very good people. This is what they did back then. None of us were scarred from a spanking. It was NOT abuse.

And BTW, do you have kids?? Do you have a car video?? I think that is abuse, or at the least, neglect. Do you let your kids watch their ipads at dinner, or shove an ipad in their faces when they are 2 years old?? Abuse. It is BAD for kids' brains, all sorts of research is coming out.

If you do those things, I want you arrested for abuse. Because...it's my opinion.

[kcr]

109. I don't know your parents

I'm sure they're wonderful people. Am I supposed to change my opinion and make children open season to beatings because of people I've never met? I'm sorry. But, no.

What the sam hell is a car video? And, let me get this straight. Beating children with belts, which causes excruciating pain, is a-okay. But Ipads are abuse? Um. Yeah. I'm going to stick with my assessment of what is and isn't abuse. But, thanks. And, again, I'll say, I'm totally sure your parents were awesome.

[adigal]

152. In my opinion, shoving your kids in front of a video while traveling with them

is abuse. God forbid parents talk to their kids. No, parents anesthesize their kids so they can blab on their cell phones. And ipads, etc, actively damage young brains. Abuse. Look at the research.

And I don't believe in spanking, but I also don't think this mother was abusive.

[kcr]

156. So, where do computers factor in?

Chatting on political message boards? Is that abuse? Nah, I bet that isn't.

Anyway, so is there some function I'm not aware of with car videos (whatever that is. I still haven't had that explained to me) that mutes people so they can't talk? That's horrible. Something should be done about that. I do favor regulation.

[adigal]

160. My point is that using videos/TV to neglect your kids is damaging, too

But seems to be very popular nowadays!!

[kcr]

162. How do people use videos and tv to neglect their children?

Are they leaving them alone in the house/car? If so, then that act is neglect, whether there is a TV/video in the house or car, or not.

Otherwise, show the neglect. What is happening. Is it the voice stealing mechanism so people can't talk? Is it some electronic zapping thing? What?

[adigal]

165. The kids are zoned out, mommy and daddy talk on their cell phones, there is no conversation

And yes, with everyone glued to their devices, there is no talking. The devices do seem to steal their voices. I watched a young couple at lunch put an ipad in front of their one year old and proceed to ignore him/her the entire meal. A family of six all texted during dinner, completely ignoring each other.

Children's brains need conversation - not TV or video dialogue, real conversation. Ignoring that is neglect, at the least. Lock them all up.

I bet you have a car video.

[kcr]

169. Well, I might have one and not know it. Seeing as I don't even know what you're talking about.

What is a car video? You still haven't explained this contraption to me. I thought I was up on all the latest tech, too.

You are backwards on the science, I'm afraid: http://thescientificparent.org/its-official-we-can-all-calm-down-about-screen-time/

[adigal]

172. What kind of bias do you think a magazine called "The Scientific Parent" is going to have??

There are more and more studies on the limited pathways kids have in their brains because of the same repetition over and over. That boredom creates creativity and creative problem solving. Handwritten notes are better for recall. Students can't attend to a project or topic for more than short periods of time due to internet use. Students aren't able to analyze a passage for deeper meaning as well as before technology.

I'm a teacher, and these are just a few of the things we have been taught in the past two years.

And you know what car videos are. Video players in a car.

[kcr]

175. What do you mean? What part of the name got your dander up? The Scientific or the Parent?

They're citing the American Academy of Pediatrics. But, okay. I've got other sources of the exact same thing you might like better. A few, in fact

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jordanshapiro/2015/09/30/the-american-academy-of-pediatrics-just-changed-their-guidelines-on-kids-and-screen-time/#766ae54f137c

http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/06/health/screen-time-rules-change-pediatricians/

And surely you will trust:
http://www.wsj.com/articles/pediatricians-rethink-screen-time-policy-for-children-1444671636

[Humanist_Activist]

178. Evidence based? n/t

[Humanist_Activist]

114. "None of us were scarred from a spanking." Who are you speaking for?

This is survivor bias, its quite rampant for survivors of all sorts of stupidity.

[Seeinghope]

151. Jail for the kids is better. DCFS for the kids is better. Foster care is better. Kids having to

go to totally different school system is better while being jerked out of their home. The guilt that they will feel will hurt much more than the belt and for a longer period for period of time. The embarrassment of what happened coming out to all of these kids friends will come out and will humiliate these kids. The possible bad influence of other kids in the foster home might cause more damage. It definetly is more traumatic.

Kids, especially boys, can get carried away and do something really stupid like this. Society has stepped in and in their infinite wisdom they have totally dealt with the situation like the imbeciles that they are and I would venture to say that their stupid ideas that are undermining parental authority could very well have led to what the boys were doing to begin with, which makes it harder and harder for parents to control their children. Yet if something goes wrong the authorities are quick to point the fingers at the parents when kids get into trouble. It is insane.

I like your "sarcasm" but seriously there is a bigger picture here than what you obviously have looked at.

[kcr]

153. Yes, this argument is not new.

I'd like to know just how bad abuse has to be before action is justified. I note that those who use this justification for sanctioning abuse rarely answer it. See, I happen to think the answer to this problem is making the system better. Not coddling child abusers.

[Seeinghope]

176. Oh please this woman used the belt on three boys who were preteens and a teenager. My mother

Last edited Fri Jun 24, 2016, 10:36 PM - Edit history (1)

dislocated her shoulder when she went to hit my teenage brother. She went to the doctor and she told him what happened (this was before a doctor was legally obligated to report "child abuse&quot He laughed and told her you have good feet, kick him. Next time she did and she broke her toe.

If you got in trouble with my dad ..well my brother, not a lot but every so often, he would get a "spanking" so my dad would take him in the garage. I laugh now because it reminds me of the old "woodshed". He didn't do that to me or my sister though. My mom was a hair puller...Spanker.

I am still here. I am not in jail. So many of my friends were "spanked" didn't really do "bad" things because they were scared of what would happen if they were caught. These are now college educated people who are very successful. Some of my friends parents didn't spank. It varied from family to family. Some of the kids that did get in trouble came from families where the parents didn't spank and some came from families that did. I just know that my friends and many people that I have met thruout my life have had corporal punishment and all agree that it is not, child abuse. They are 2 different things and have been for centuries. Society has changed the definition of both and decided that they are one in the same.

[Humanist_Activist]

177. Holy fucking shit!

[kcr]

181. I don't care whether or not abuse "works", or if the victim turned out okay

or if the abuser thinks they're doing the right thing. To me, it doesn't matter, just as it's irrelevant for victims of other crimes. The crime itself is terrible, and children have a right to be protected from it. If it were an effective parenting tool to use electro shock on children, I doubt many of the same people would be advocating for it. It's not relevant. Also not relevant whether it was considered abuse in the past.

A lot of things weren't considered wrong in the past that are now. Society evolves and progresses and laws change to reflect that. There is a conservative element that yearns for the past, thinking it was so much better and the laws should reflect that. They're wrong.

[Seeinghope]

223. Magic words "to me" and that is what it is..an opinion ....to you that the "newly evolved" have

decided to believe. It is now a crime because there are people that decided that wanted to make it a crime. People that insist on being "evolved" and that everybody else are breaking laws and or criminals just are not practical and haven't been around long enough to remember the good old days when kids respected authority in general...When I knew what what expected of me. My kids feel the same way. Even my older grandkids feel the same way. They see one of the kids that has totally gotten her way and controls the adults. The world evolves around her needs. When kids get too difficult for the parents to handle they take their kids to the doctors and get labeled with ADD. ADHD and put on some type of medication. Medical science has "evolved" helping with children's problems.

The mother is not a criminal. It is too bad that the "evolved" society has decided to make her one.

[kcr]

228. Yes, people decided to make it a crime. That's how it works. Laws don't spring up out of the ground

on their own. And yeah, I'm sure that the people who enjoyed the crime before it was illegal usually want to keep on doing the crime and never think it's practical. Bummer.

As for the rest of your post. Yep. Change. Medicine, technology, everything advances. The same old-school backward looking people hate that, too. Bummer.

[Seeinghope]

247. Computers that can rig elections. Mass media skilfully hand feeding chosen information for specific

reasons. The control of information on a mass scale is now possible. OYeah GMO, antibiotics in our foods, a pill for every ailment, 10 year olds with cell phones,
GAD, Prescription drugs are now killing far more people than illegal drugs, and while most major causes of preventable deaths are declining, those from prescription drug use are increasing, an analysis of recently released data from the U.S. C, overuse of technology can cause "Digital Dementia"

Assault Weapons, cheese that has sawdust in it, jobs that been shipped overseas, minimum wage that has been stagnant for over 25 years, laws that allow drug companies to bargain price of prescriptions in foreign countries but not in this country...... Those medical, technological and legal advances? Notice the lack of sarcasm? That is part of of sincerity and respect that I learned growing up.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

41. Yeah. How about parenting classes?

This mother is trying her best and social services should be helping her, not undermining her. UGH
This could have been handled so much better.

[kcr]

48. If she needs it, social services absolutely should be helping her, but

child abuse doesn't just happen in poor families. It's illegal if you're rich or poor.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

58. I used "social services"

as a catchall for CPS. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

[kcr]

62. Either way, my point remains.

It's illegal, rich or poor.

[swhisper1]

126. spanking is not child abuse

[kcr]

127. Okay. Very good.

But beating with a belt is.

[Tsiyu]

24. Inflicting bodily harm does not rehabilitate anyone

There are enough people solving their issues with violence.

A better idea would be to have the kids talk to some cops/former inmates to get a better picture of where a life of thievery will lead.

If beatings worked to cure deceit, greed, thievery and thuggery, we could all take our paddles, belts, switches and brass knuckles and go straighten out our legislators, judges and Wall Street, then lay a hurtin' on some Koch Brothers, Trumpsters and Paul Ryan.

If we can't use violence to cure our political, judicial and economic leaders--who are all grown adults well aware of the criminal nature of their choices--and turn them from their sinful ways by beating the fuck out of them, why would we turn around and use violence, welts and bruising to correct mere children?

Sounds like favoring the beating of children is more of a misguided, bloodthirsty focus on working out your violent nature by inflicting pain and sorrow and degradation on the "weakest among you" to me.

[Ilsa]

29. There's an age when spanking just won't work any more than punching their faces.

I don't know how old these kids are, but 1. Loss of privileges, 2. Restitution of losses, 3. Apologies also teach values, ownership, consequences more than getting whacked.

[Warpy]

30. The family unit is not strengthened when parents beat their kids

and when an object is used, that's a beating, whether it's a belt, hair brush, or slab of wood.

Were these kids due punishment? Oh hell, yes. It should have been swift, sure, and humiliating as they were forced to return the property in person and work out a plan to pay for any damage they caused to the neighbor's house.

I doubt the authorities would have reacted had the mother swatted those kids with her hand. Using an object that left marks crossed the line. I do think taking the kids away was extreme and shouldn't have been done.

Oh, yeah, I went to schools in the south where a blister board was on display in the principal's office. It didn't make me behave. It did make me a little sneakier.

[LanternWaste]

32. I grew up during a time when seat belts were as rare as drinking and driving laws.

I grew up during a time when seat belts were as rare as drinking and driving laws. Now we can't even do that anymore! Damned authoritarians undermining our rights. No wonder road rage is so endemic.

[kcr]

33. No one of any age sits still when they're being beaten. That's why that "sounds" "bad".

It's not dancing around. It's writhing in pain because one is being beaten. It's trying to avoid being assaulted. This woman was thrown in jail because she assaulted her kids. Period.

[pnwmom]

44. There is no, no, no good reason to whip or paddle children. Period. End of story.

And even if an argument might be made for a quick tap if a 2 year old runs into the street, there is no reason to use corporal punishment on children who can be reasoned with. It just teaches violence -- everything we don't want them to learn.

I have successfully raised children to adulthood and watched the children of my friends and relatives grow up and I know it requires discipline -- but not this kind of discipline.When a parent physically acts out like this mother, he or she either (1) taking the lazy way out or (2) having an adult version of a temper tantrum.

I think values were much more screwed up when society thought it was fine for parents to abuse their children.

[anigbrowl]

74. Anyone who does that in front of me is going ot be in for a surprise

My experience is that people who like to dish out violence are the least well-prepared to receive it.

[CanonRay]

52. I guess my old man should be in jail

I got the belt all the time. Personally, I think she did the right thing. Stealing is pretty serious and getting away with it can easily lead to worse behavior.

[adigal]

87. Did your parents ever leave marks??? Mine did. So did my husband's parents.

I didn't need to be removed from the home. I had good parents, a stable, loving home, that was just how they disciplined.

Give the woman some counseling on other ways to discipline and teach her children and put those kids back with their mom. She seems like a loving mom who maybe didn't know another way to teach her kids to NOT steal, which could put them in jail if they don't learn now.

Stupid.

[swhisper1]

133. if they hold the buckle, there will be no scarring, welts go away

parents have leeway if they do not harm. Spanking made me aware of social limitations, words would not have had any effect. Today kids disrespect their parents at age 5. Dont spank with a hand, always use a noisy bendable object. Its the action that frightens the kid, not the pain. Kids dont care if you are disappointed, they do care if you show anger. A belt through clothing wont leave a mark. The kids should be with their mom, period

[Humanist_Activist]

136. Wow, you are giving a how-to on how to abuse kids and not be caught, what the fuck?

If you have to put the fear of a beating into your kid in order for them to temporarily obey you, you have failed as a parent.

[swhisper1]

139. it is not abuse. If I caught my kid stealing or with a gun, I would use a horsewhip

[Humanist_Activist]

143. Yeah, that's child abuse. n/t

[swhisper1]

146. you are entitled to your opinion, of course, no need to reply

[Humanist_Activist]

148. Of course there's a need to reply, you are advocating child abuse, what the fuck type of person...

does that?

Seriously, horsewhipping?

Not to mention the fact that it doesn't work as discipline.

[adigal]

158. You can't make a general statement like "It doesn't work."

Maybe spanking doesn't work for the majority, but I will tell you, I was afraid of my mother hitting me, so I stayed away from the "bad" kids and didn't do "bad" things. So it works for some.

[Humanist_Activist]

166. You were afraid of your mother hitting you? And you think that's normal?

I'm sorry you had to go through that. That's awful.

ON EDIT: But don't perpetuate the cycle.

[adigal]

170. It kept me out of jail, teen pregnancy, doing heroin or other bad drugs in the early and mid 70s

She did me a favor.

And please don't lecture me - my kids are all grown and I never hit them, because I am a very different person than my mother. I like to explain things to my kids, which of course, is better, but they also did things that I NEVER would have done and those things affected the lives they live now in a bad way.

[Humanist_Activist]

174. What about all those kids who were spanked/abused who did go through all those...

bad things that you claimed your mother beating you allowed you to avoid?

You display survivor bias, plain and simple, you are somewhat well adjusted, and if what you are saying is true, you didn't pass the abuse on to your children. That's good, but its not evidence that spanking is an effective disciplinary method. In fact, study after study shows that it is not.

[kcr]

147. Yep, and those posts are exactly why it has to be illegal.

because that's beyond the reach of parenting classes. Children need to be protected from that.

[Humanist_Activist]

190. Physical "discipline" doesn't work, B.F. Skinner is not the end all, be all on this issue...

its not like its just my opinion:

http://news.utexas.edu/2016/04/25/risks-of-harm-from-spanking-confirmed-by-researchers

[Humanist_Activist]

207. These kids were beaten with a belt, at best, the lesson taken away here is that they may...

think that violence is an acceptable outlet to solve problems.

ON EDIT: In addition, where is the evidence that this "occasional" use of physical punishment would actually lead to positive outcomes?

[kcr]

193. ABA has a bad rap, but even with its roots in Skinnerism, it doesn't promote spanking.

Spanking is outmoded and conservative and not based in current science. Skinner lived in a different time.

[Humanist_Activist]

204. Evidence for your claims? n/t

[Humanist_Activist]

217. You do this a lot, you make unsupported claims, then fail to link to studies...

that support your claims, then make grandiose claims again.

Question, do those industries spank their employees?

[kcr]

225. Well, I'm not a scientist. I don't test theories.

But, I think it's telling that the scientific community, including most behaviorists, have abandoned spanking. It doesn't take a scientist figure out the reason for that.

[Humanist_Activist]

213. Using any type of weapon, even the hand, I would argue is abusive...

other disagree, but a lot of people in this thread think getting beat with a belt is normal and GOOD. How fucked up is that?

[840high]

134. .that^

[Humanist_Activist]

2. Abuser rightly jailed and kids taken away from her, where's the controversy?

The idea of spanking is just barbaric and atrocious.

[Major Nikon]

3. Spanking is for consenting adults

[Humanist_Activist]

6. Exactly. Not to mention the research on spanking seems to point to it being damaging...

to the children, particularly if done often.

[Major Nikon]

61. It's amazing at how many people are so heavily invested in the idea that beating children works

...despite the overwhelming evidence that it's counterproductive.

[Humanist_Activist]

71. No shit, its survivor bias run amok. n/t

[FSogol]

98. It's amazing that on a Democratic website that many people are so heavily invested in the idea that

beating children works.



Violence isn't the best way to solve problems.

[scscholar]

13. Not necessarily

Some rights you can't consent to giving up. For example, you can't consent to letting someone murder you.

[Major Nikon]

18. The idea that adults can't consent to spanking each other is ridiculous

Picking such a gross false equivalency demonstrates why.

[kcr]

34. To a point, yes.

This was a beating that left marks. Not the same thing.

[Major Nikon]

42. Obviously it's not the same thing. Consenting adults is what makes it not the same thing.

Not severity.

If you are an adult and you want your ass beat till it's black and blue and you can find someone willing to do so, nobody else has any business saying you can't. The places in the world where consensual BDSM practices are illegal are few and far between as outdated notions of sexuality are going by the wayside.

[kcr]

45. No

It's the fact that it's a beating that makes it not the same thing. Adults can consent to spanking.

[Major Nikon]

56. And yet consenting adults are beating each others asses all over the world even as we speak

Meanwhile police are declining to arrest people for it, prosecutors are declining to prosecute, antiquated assault laws are being changed to allow for it, and the public's Give-A-Fuck-O-Meter regarding what consenting adults do behind close doors is failing to register.

[kcr]

63. Yeah. People do illegal things all the time.

What is your source for claiming police are declining to arrest people for it? For example, I'm not sure police showing up for a domestic violence call are going to simply shrug it off if the claim is it was consensual. Beating is not legal.

[Major Nikon]

101. Sure, like consensual sodomy

Many states still have laws against consensual sodomy still on the books so it's still illegal in lots of places. But police rarely arrest and it's even more rare that prosecutors will prosecute, while Lawrence v. Texas assures convictions are virtually impossible. The same can be said of adultery and fornication laws.

Even my backwards ass state of Texas which created Lawrence v. Texas has a legal exception for consensual BDSM just like numerous other states. So the idea that it's illegal everywhere is demonstrably wrong.

My source is the Model Penal Code which some states have enacted entirely and all states use as a guide for changing laws and deciding whether or not to prosecute others. For at least the last 35 years it has been quite clear on the subject and provides a clear defense for consensual assault. Otherwise people doing tattoos and piercings would likewise be criminally prosecuted.

So what's your source that it is illegal and adults are being arrested for consensual ass beatings? I'm sure it does happen in rare instances, but just like before Lawrence v. Texas and sodomy, those cases are very few and far between because conviction is going to be nearly impossible.

[kcr]

106. I'm not going to equate consensual sex with assault

What I am trying to do is avoid minimizing beatings of children by comparing it to consensual acts committed by adults. I don't even know why we had to go there. No one, of any age, can consent to illegal acts. A person cannot consent to bodily harm. And no, I'm not trying to claim that consensual sexual acts, including BDSM, should be made illegal. I don't know what is so hard about this.

[Major Nikon]

119. "A person cannot consent to bodily harm. I don't know what is so hard about this"

ALA CODE § 13A-2-7 : Alabama Code - Section 13A-2-7(b) Consent to bodily harm.

Delaware Code Title 11. Crimes and Criminal Procedure §?452.?Consent of victim to inflictions of physical injury as defense

45-2-211. Consent as defense. (1) The consent of the victim to conduct charged to constitute an offense or to the result thereof is a defense.

2006 New Hampshire Statutes - Section 626:6 Consent.

THE NEW JERSEY CODE OF CRIMINAL JUSTICE Section 2C:2-10 - Consent

There's lots more if you like.

[kcr]

123. Every single one of those proves what I said.

They all negate consent for serious harm.

[Major Nikon]

129. Serious bodily harm doesn't come within a cab ride of proving what you said

They ain't talkin' bout no ass beating.

Serious bodily injury or harm is the serious physical harm caused to the human body. It usually refers to those injuries that create a substantial risk of death or that cause serious, permanent disfigurement or prolonged loss or impairment of the function of any body part or organ. The term “serious bodily injury” is interchangeably used with serious bodily harm; grievous bodily harm; great bodily injury.

http://definitions.uslegal.com/s/serious-bodily-harm/

[kcr]

138. They ain't, huh?

Couple of problems with your argument. First of all, that is the definition in one state, Georgia. Number two, because this is an issue that is handled state by state, you ignore that those states often had other exceptions that applied. The reason I have a problem with comparing child abuse to consensual acts by adults is because it minimized abuse by both adults and children. People cannot consent to abuse. If it is abuse, it isn't consensual. I know that some practitioners of consensual activity squawk at this and I have no idea why. If they're truly practicing consensual legal activity then what ox of theirs is being gored, here?

For example, if someone witnesses a person beating another adult with a belt, the other person screaming in agony, and they call the police, and the police witnesses visible, bleeding wounds, the police may well arrest the offender, even if the victim claims they consented because of current domestic abuse laws.

[Major Nikon]

203. "Serious bodily harm" is a universal legal standard

So that is yet another problem out of many in your argument, not mine. I never claimed every state had such exceptions. In fact, I specifically mentioned some didn't. So that's another problem with your argument. Being arrested doesn't mean you broke the law, as you alleged, which is another problem with your argument that was demonstrably wrong, not to mention I specifically differentiated between what goes on among consenting adults vs children. Everything which followed was an attempt to draw comparisons where none existed.

[kcr]

208. So why are people arrested for domestic battery for giving a black eye?

The answer is your point about that being a universal legal standard in the context of what we're talking about is irrelevant. Consent isn't this magic wand that confers automatic and absolute protection against everything. A cop may not care if a victim claims they gave consent for that black eye, definition for bodily harm be damned. And that's the way it should be.

[Major Nikon]

215. So we went from an ass beating to a black eye

I also previously pointed out that an arrest doesn't necessarily mean a law was broken, and never claimed consent constituted, "automatic and absolute protection against everything". Since you're simply repeating yourself and building bigger strawmen, I'm out. Feel free to continue without me.

[kcr]

220. Look, I'm not the one who compared child abuse to adult consensual sexual activity.

The only reason I brought up a black eye is because you keep defending the comparison.

I never said an arrest means a law was broken. I didn't mean to imply that. But an arrest can certainly lead to charges, so in that context I meant that if the intent is consensual activity, then a couple might take care not to attract attention, because it simply isn't true that there are broad legal protections in that area. There just aren't. Hell, even adultery is still banned in some states. Some notion of a broad definition of bodily harm is no protection. This is the USA we're talking about.

[sorefeet]

37. Thats true scsholar, it just happened

here in Billings. A guy told his girl friend he wanted her to kill him. So she did. She got in the back seat of the car and choked him,(who was in the front seat) and killed him. She just got 60 years.

[Beaverhausen]

8. What would you suggest she do instead?

I think she went too far, but see the below paragraph from the article:

She told the local Baton Rouge station the father of her children was incarcerated and she didn’t want her kids going down that road. In fact, she stressed that they see her going to work every day as a chef and she has them in magnet schools and on the honor roll.

[Humanist_Activist]

15. Not teach her kids that violence resolves problems, or is appropriate punishment for anyone?

Seriously, what is up with this excuse that underdeveloped people(children) should have less civil rights than adults. If we gave adults these same punishments, we would be howling about human rights abuses, but because they are kids, its excusable?

Why didn't she turn them in, or have the neighbor press charges? Or how about therapy for having such a shitty mother?

[KittyWampus]

59. So you cheer on her incarceration and removal of her kids. Frankly that's just as unempathetic

and counter-productive as giving your kids the belt.

[Humanist_Activist]

64. Its obvious she and the children need, at the very least, counseling, but the children...

also need a safe environment to be in.

[adigal]

95. To believe that this woman should be in jail and her kids in foster homes

that are often doing it for the money where FAR WORSE things happen to kids...Christ. This is why many people think liberals are idiots and don't think things through.

From,
A Thinking Liberal

[Major Nikon]

69. Do you really think that compares with cheering on child abuse?

Abusive parents should be separated from their children and punished as appropriate. If they can demonstrate a willingness to change, they may get reunited. If they can't understand what they are doing is wrong, they shouldn't be custodial parents. It's just that simple.

Nobody thinks that way in the case of spousal abuse, even though adults at least have a chance of escaping violence. If not protected by the state, children have far fewer options.

[Ilsa]

31. loss of privileges, restitution, apologies to victims and police

are good starts, IMO.

[uponit7771]

75. What "privileges"!?

[Ilsa]

105. Watching television.

Implement a schedule of chores, even if it is at a relative's. Remove a favorite food.

I grew up poor as almost anyone. There is almost always something preferred that can be removed for a limited time to indicate unpleasant consequences rather than a beating.

[840high]

135. Sounds like a good Mom.

[Humanist_Activist]

141. Really, a woman raising three wanna be felons whose abuse doesn't seem to work?

Wow, she's fucking mom of the year, and frankly I doubt this is the first time she's ever used a belt on her kids, look how well its working so far.

[840high]

184. You're not in her shoes.

[Humanist_Activist]

185. So? Beating children is wrong, period. n/t

[adigal]

91. To equate spanking with abuse is just such hyperbole

I can't even have a discussion when something like that is said. They are FAR different things.

And I never hit my kids. But this is just silly.

[Humanist_Activist]

112. Where is the line between spanking and abuse drawn, in your world? n/t

[Major Nikon]

124. Hyperbole is equating a pat on the ass to a severe beating

Fortunately the law is far more clearer than the lines you would prefer to blur.

(California Penal Code:11165.4)

Willfully inflict any cruel or inhuman corporal punishment or injury resulting in a traumatic condition upon a minor. Corporal punishment is not in and of itself child abuse; it is if it causes internal or external injuries.

(Unintentional injuries occur more often when the parent is out of control or uses any object (i.e. switch, belt, spoon) to administer the punishment.

Corporal punishment is reportable to Child Protective Services when:

It causes external and/or internal injuries to the child (i.e., a mark lasting more than two hours after the child is hit), OR could reasonably have been expected to cause internal/external injury.
The parent or caretaker uses harsh disciplinary measures (cruel/unusual punishments) or impulsively uses “out of control” discipline (screaming profanity or humiliating language at child while repeatedly hitting with significant force or “venting” frustration on child).

http://www.thecapcenter.org/who/news/what-is-unlawful-corporal-punishment

[adigal]

154. So if a parent spanks a child on the behind, once, and it leaves a red mark

the parent should go to jail?? Please. How long did the belt marks last??

I don't agree with hitting with a belt. I don't agree with hitting. But as another person pointed out, a lot of this is cultural, as well.

[Major Nikon]

210. I suggest you read the OP more closely

She hit them more than once and it left cuts and bruises which don't heal for days, and yes that level of illegal activity should be punished.

In some parts of the world, raping children is cultural. People just don't get a pass for illegal activity because it's accepted among certain groups.

[adigal]

239. You've lost all credibility comparing raping a child with hitting them with a belt

Amazing, that you would even go there.

[Major Nikon]

240. I feel the same way about dichotomous thinkers

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

113. Hope she gets serious jail time and the kids find decent foster care.

[Humanist_Activist]

116. Honestly, its only taken this long to find out this is how she treats her children...

I wonder how long the abuse has been going on.

[840high]

137. I'm glad my family was never

broken up because of spanking.

[Odin2005]

4. Child-abusing POS, lock her up.

[Seeinghope]

7. Right, putting her kids into a totally f***ed up system is much better.

There are generations that turned out to be great law abiding people who where corporal punishment was used. It is just recently that it is all of a sudden "barbaric". Con incidentally kids are becoming less respectful and parents less involved in their kids lives at the same time. When kids act out parents are also blaming teachers and everyone else because values are changing for the worse.

[Major Nikon]

16. Sure, and people used to think an occasional wife beating was no big deal either

Just because something was socially acceptable at one time, doesn't make it right. And no, spanking doesn't have a social benefit. Quite the reverse is true. The results of long term spanking are anti-social behavior.

[yeoman6987]

22. If she gets the kids back

They will run the house now. Those teenagers will hold this against her when ever she says no. This is a mess and overreaction. "Mom. If you don't let us have this, we will call child services and say you threatened to hit us again." And with the child's services already involved they will believe the teenagers. This family is going to see some rough times over this.

[Major Nikon]

46. Nothing stops any teenager from doing this

If she continues with the abuse, they should call CPS.

[puffy socks]

47. Yep and when they are involved in some other, possibly more serious crime, they will blame her for

not disciplining her kids.

It seems many are fine with abusing her by throwing her in jail and taking the kids away for a punishment, but somehow her children shouldn't be spanked regardless of actions, actions that could literally cost them their lives.

[yeoman6987]

50. I agree

The strange thing is some liberals advocating jail and having the kids taken away. I just can't believe it.

[adigal]

97. Parents don't spank anymore, but think it's fine to shove an ipad in front of their 2 year old

when out to dinner and have movies on in the car when they should be using that time to actually talk to their kids.

I see those things as abuse. I think parents who have car videos and ipad or iphones at dinner to avoid having to actually interact with their kids should lose them because honestly...I think those things are FAR more damaging to a child than a spanking. And I never spanked my kids.

[Seeinghope]

167. I totally agree. We were taught to behave while in a car. We sat at the dinner table and talked as

A family to home cooked meals. People say that they work now so they can't make meals so that is why there there are so many fast food places . The kid obesity rate has sky rocketed...kids on I-Pad, Cell Phones, watching shows, movies on their devices. Lack of physical activity. That is more dangerous to these kids than anything else.

I have talked to so many older teachers that have said kids have changed and not for the better. I have gone in restaurants and seen families where the adults let their kids make a huge me, pretty much run around uncontrolled and then leave the restaurant with their table looking like a bomb dropped. Or parents in stores letting their kids run wild. Society is teaching that the little darlings must be able to express themselves and that everyone should tolerate loudness, rudeness, lack of respect.......16 year olds getting brand new cars. It is just too bad that this woman trying to raise these boys just found out that when she realized that her sons broke in and robbed from someone's house she should have not called the police and just talked to her son's and grounded them or she should have marched them into the police station, turned them in, put them into the system, subjected herself to being sued from the victim's for her son's activity. Either way she was in a horrible situation. I feel for her.

[Arkansas Granny]

10. Instead of locking her up and putting the kids in foster care with strangers, how about

intervening with counseling, parenting classes and home visits and let the kids stay in their home with their mom with appropriate supervision? It would probably be better for the kids and better for mom.

[Hekate]

11. Bingo

[Odin2005]

12. That only works if the mom is remorseful and willing to change.

This women sounds like the kind of person who blames everything they don't like on "kids these days" not getting beaten enough. and nobody will change her attitudes.

[Orrex]

17. But if we do that, then how will we feel righteous and superior?

It's obvious from DU's many threads on this subject that this is the highest priority.

Acting with compassion will only teach these irredeemable monsters that they deserve to be treated like human beings, and then where will we be?

[Major Nikon]

20. Sometimes adults need a time out

The failure to separate children from abusive parents sometimes results in dead kids. This is also true of adults, which is why cops routinely forcibly separate abusive spouses.

If the state determines the parent is no longer a threat to the children, they will be reunited at some point.

[smirkymonkey]

67. Most sensible post on this thread yet!

[uponit7771]

79. Naw... naw... its a lot better to punish them so people on line feel good and shit /sarcasm

... I don't see how the officials stepping in help the situation

[mnhtnbb]

9. Using a belt is not spanking: it's beating the kids. That is child abuse.

Parents are perfectly able to discipline children without resorting to spanking or beating.

I raised two boys and never laid a hand on either one of them. And believe me, there were plenty of times
that discipline was required--it was just never physical--and they not only survived but have turned
into wonderful adults.

[Odin2005]

14. My mom grounding me from my Nintendo worked far better than spanking ever did.

A week without being able to play video games felt like torture to kid me!

[Kaleva]

26. This then 13 year shot and killed his mother becasue she took away his game

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/noah-crooks-boy-13-killed-1868899

[Ilsa]

36. She should have shot him first.

Makes as much sense as letting a 13 yo have access to a gun.

[uponit7771]

81. lol... you crazy, jail the woman for whooping her kids but do shoot them if they get a gun...

... ok

[Ilsa]

107. The whole idea that she let a 13yo have

access to a gun is insane, IMO.

Just being sarcastic about her shooting her kid. I'm not sure what the "gun in every purse, belt, holster, etc" group recommends.

[Odin2005]

49. Are you implying spanking would have prevented this kid becoming a violent monster?

[Kaleva]

60. No. Am saying that every kid is different.

What was effective punishment for you obviously did not work for the child in the article.

[Beaverhausen]

57. Was your mom a working, single mother with 5 other kids?

[Humanist_Activist]

68. Does that excuse what she did? n/t

[Beaverhausen]

72. I just asked you a question.

Yes or no?

[Humanist_Activist]

73. I'm not the one you asked. n/t

[Beaverhausen]

76. Whatever

I didn't make a judgement, I simply asked a question about his/her family situation.

[Odin2005]

219. Single working mom with 2 kids.

[laundry_queen]

237. Single working mother of 4 here. That's no excuse.

Unless there's some magic tipping point between #4 and #6 that I'm not aware of.

I have never ever hit my kids. Never spanked, hit, whipped or any other abuse. Read parenting books. Taught my kids empathy. Get compliments on their behavior wherever we go, from everyone in our lives. My oldest is an adult now, in University. All my kids are honors students. The oldest 2 have had jobs since they were 14. They are compassionate, passionate, loving, artistic, smart, wonderful human beings.

Spanking/hitting/abusing causes more harm and doesn't stop the offending behavior. Just teaches that might makes right. Is more likely to teach the kids to avoid getting caught, not to avoid doing the behavior. If a child is taught empathy, and is taught intrinsic motivation then not much else is needed but some guidance as they grow older. Their own conscience will guide them.

[uponit7771]

80. WOW... you had a nintendo!? we had dirt... and we didn't even like it !!!

[ManiacJoe]

117. Correct, those kids were not spanked, they were beaten.

There is a difference.

[Major Nikon]

242. There's also similarities

Both produce the exact opposite effect as intended. The biggest difference is one is a legal form of child abuse while the other is not.

[ManiacJoe]

248. Opinions vary.

[Major Nikon]

249. Empirical studies do not

[ManiacJoe]

250. My reading does suggest they also vary.

Not all studies are created equal.

[Major Nikon]

251. You can say the same thing about global warming denial

The reason the American Academy of Pediatrics is quite clear on the subject is because the very best information we have on the subject goes one direction and has for quite some time.

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/101/4/723

The very best meta-analysis on the subject ends whatever controversy remains.
http://news.utexas.edu/2016/04/25/risks-of-harm-from-spanking-confirmed-by-researchers

[rollin74]

19. hitting kids with a belt makes them MORE likely to be criminals

not less

people like this are too ignorant to understand how counter-productive their actions are

I'm glad she was arrested

she sounds like a lousy, violent excuse for a parent

[Kaleva]

27. Getting whipped with a belt, shaving strap, switch, board, broom, etc.,

was pretty much standard when I was young. Very, very few of us grew up to be criminals.

[kcr]

40. I wonder how many grew up to have problems with logic n/t

[treestar]

54. our mothers drank and smoked while pregnant and we turned out just fine

reminds me of that. Maybe we are not criminals. But with other stressors we might have been. If we were middle class maybe we didn't turn into criminals.

We might have issues though. Addiction, etc.

[Kaleva]

65. Seems that people today have more stressers in their lives then before.

[adigal]

100. Seriously?? You think getting hit with a belt a few times causes addiction??

No, it doesn't

Being abused causes addiction. Being disciplined the same way as all of the other kids were disciplined wasn't abuse.

Being in jail and raped because you got caught stealing - that may cause addiction. Being shot by a homeowner and killed because you broke into their home - that may cause - oh, never mind. Death.

[Humanist_Activist]

110. Being hit with a belt is abuse. I can't believe I have to state this on a so called...

progressive board.

Not saying it will cause addiction, but other issues, certainly increases the likelyhood.

[adigal]

149. It wasn't abuse for many, many years. And I think videos in cars is abuse.

Instead of actually talking to your kids. Just anesthesize them with some stupid video so you can blab on your cell phone.

Opinions. Everyone has one.

[Humanist_Activist]

159. Whether people substitute technology for parenting, that's no comparison to physical abuse.

You try visiting your best friend and then have the cops called to his house while you are there because his dad decided to show up, to give him a righteous whipping for shoplifting. My friend was so scared he wedged himself under the kitchen sink so badly we had to take it apart to get him back out again, after his dad had his drunken ass arrested. So forgive me for taking a no tolerance attitude to physical abuse.

[adigal]

161. Bullshit. Check out the brain studies. Exposure to technology can do permanent damage to a child's

developing brain. A swat on the rear doesn't do permanent damage.

It's just that people like to use computers to entertain and raise their kids so it's ok in 2016.

[Humanist_Activist]

164. Uhm, there are quite a few studies showing that child abuse, including spanking...

does damage children, causing emotional and behavioral problems.

I haven't heard the same from exposure to technology, indeed, some technology, mainly video games, may actually improve cognitive function.

[adigal]

168. Here you go - found this one in about 2 seconds

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cris-rowan/technology-children-negative-impact_b_3343245.html

There's also research on how typing notes is not as effective as hand writing them for understanding and recall.

[kcr]

173. If you'd taken more than two seconds, you'd have seen that's outdated.

http://thescientificparent.org/its-official-we-can-all-calm-down-about-screen-time/

[treestar]

155. I didn't say it causes it, I just said it could be harmful

It's not either/or. As the other poster said, we didn't turn out to be criminals. But it's generally thought by those who made progress since then that hitting your kids did not have a good effect on them. It is not justified to continue on the ground that it was done in the past and didn't seem to have harmed all the people it was done to in some major way. A lot of things were done in the past that apparently did not cause a whole lot of harm, but where it did, it was bad and people nowadays do not want to continue to do it - i.e. pregnant women smoking, wearing seat belts etc. Bicycle helmet. I never had them as a kid and didn't get hurt, but what is wrong with having kids wear them now in case something happens?

[RegexReader]

43. better to get disciplined by their mother

than shot by a occupant of the house.

[Humanist_Activist]

171. Who says the discipline from the mother would be effective? n/t

[deaniac21]

25. The lady in Baltimore

who beat her son with her fists (caught on video)for throwing rocks at police, was made out to be a hero.

[Ligyron]

38. I got the belt as a kid in the 60's

bare assed too. I was more focused on "taking it like a man" and showing no sign of being in pain than what it was I did wrong. Did no good really.

Years later, I had arguments w my Dad over disciplining my kids this way as I refused to do it.

I remember pointing out that plenty of people in prison got beaten as kids and look where they ended up. That shut him up on that subject.

Plus I had girls and - call me sexist but I was not about to lay this on a female. Those girls turned out better than me too in the behavior department.

[kcr]

66. So, white people can be arrested for beating their children, then?

Or is it no laws protecting children, then. Only white people support those?

[kcr]

90. No. I'm asking you.

You don't have to answer, of course.

[kcr]

96. Okay. This thread is about the law, however.

And who is more deserving of protection of the law. Children or parents. That's really what it boils down to. Spankers/beaters think parents have the right to do as they see fit. Others think children are human beings with their own individual rights, and have the right not to be spanked (if they're full on no spankers) or have limits, such as no belt beating.

[1StrongBlackMan]

55. "Your Honor. When my son is 10. When he screws up, I will whip his ass ..."

"Better I whip his ass now, than have you imprison him, or have some cop kill him, in 8 years."

Heard by 1SBM during a parental competence hearing.

1SBM, in honor of the lessons of his fore-fathers, that survived in this land, approves this message, with full recognition that it might not sit well with others of different historical memory.

[Humanist_Activist]

78. Considering that there is little to no evidence that corporal punishment either improves behavior...

or decreases criminality among adolescents and adults, I'm assuming this is just an excuse to "whip his ass"?

How appalling.

[1StrongBlackMan]

84. As I stated, people with different historical experience, mayl feel differently ...

my families history, living in this country (originally, in the jim crow south) and having most of our male children living into adulthood, informs us differently.

[adigal]

102. And let's be honest liberals here, if your kids acted up they would suffer far worse consequences

than the blonde, blue eyed kid in the town next door.

I get what you are saying. I didn't spank, but I understand cultural differences. I think it's nuts, these people on this thread, calling spanking child abuse. I'm 54, and we were ALL spanked, and loved and taken very good care of.

[1StrongBlackMan]

120. Thank you ...

the liberals here believe their experience is THE experience and dismiss that other others ... ignoring that their experience didn't include lynching for eye-balling or other acts of perceived defiance.

[Humanist_Activist]

125. I'm sorry that's bullshit, "cultural differences" should NOT be used as cover for abuse...

or oppression.

[Humanist_Activist]

108. Its not a question of history, it doesn't matter the color of the victim...

black or white, being spanked does NOT improve behavior and may actually make it worse, not to mention normalizing violence as a way to solve problems.


ON EDIT: I will be frank and say that some personal experience comes into this, my best friend growing up was abused by his father, physical discipline is abuse, period.

[1StrongBlackMan]

121. First, there is a difference between being "abused" and "spanked/"whipped" ...

being spanked does NOT improve behavior

maybe not, but it kept generations of my male fore-fathers, alive.

[Humanist_Activist]

122. Really? What's the difference?

Also, any evidence it kept your fore-fathers alive?

You concede that it may not improve behavior, so what is it about spanking that you like to dish it out?

[1StrongBlackMan]

130. If you have to ask, I can't tell you ...

Also, any evidence it kept your fore-fathers alive?

Yes ... They lived to reproduce; rather than, becoming strange fruit for (perceived) acts of defiance.

You concede that it may not improve behavior, so what is it about spanking that you like to dish it out?

WTF ... where'd you get that from

[Humanist_Activist]

132. I'm sorry, did you not admit that you would and have "whipped the ass" of a 10 year old?

ON EDIT: What is the point of spanking?


ON EDIT again: You still haven't said why you fore-fathers had to spank their children to survive.

[Major Nikon]

230. Correlation does not imply causation

The fact that anyone lived through childhood physical punishment doesn't mean that punishment kept them alive anymore than the reduction in the pirate population is causing global warming.

The correlation is much stronger that such punishment actually makes people more likely to be actually defiant and exhibit anti-social behavior.
http://news.utexas.edu/2016/04/25/risks-of-harm-from-spanking-confirmed-by-researchers

[Purveyor]

70. JUST IN: Louisiana Officials Praise Mother Arrested For Whipping Sons

--CLIP

But since her arrest, she's received an outpouring of support.

This week, Louisiana State Treasurer John Kennedy said Spears should not have been arrested for disciplining her children with corporal punishment.

Louisiana Attorney General Jeff Landry said Friday that he's grateful his mother used a rod to teach right from wrong. The attorney general is reviewing the case.

MORE...

http://www.startribune.com/louisiana-officials-praise-mother-arrested-for-whipping-sons/384324351/

[Humanist_Activist]

77. Ugh, this just demonstrates how fucked up this country is in so many different ways....

How does teaching kids that violence is OK teaching them right from wrong?

[840high]

142. Good.

[ecstatic]

82. Didn't Ted Cruz openly admit to spanking his kids?

Maybe he should be arrested too!

[Humanist_Activist]

180. To be honest, yes, and Romney should have been arrested for animal abuse, do you have...

any more observations to make?

[lumberjack_jeff]

94. The three boys are out of control because they lack a father.

Not because of the presence or absence of spanking.

[Agnosticsherbet]

103. I grew up with just a mother because my father was sadistic asshole and wife abuser.

I disagree with your statement.

[Humanist_Activist]

111. I would say its likely they lacked structure and/or attention, doesn't have...

to be a father that isn't there that does it. Corporal punishment certainly isn't going to help the situation.

[840high]

144. They are doing well in school. I think

she's a good Mom.

[Humanist_Activist]

145. Someone who used a fucking belt on their kids is, by definition, not a good Mom.

What kinda fucked up world do you exist in?

[840high]

182. She is a good Mom - does

not want the kids to end up in prison like their Dad did. You don't like my take - bug-off.

[Humanist_Activist]

187. You are excusing child abuse, and likely that is what is going to lead to them going to...

prison.

There is absolutely no evidence that spankings lead to better disciplinary outcomes than non-violent methods, and a lot of evidence that it leads to behavioral and emotional problems that can manifest in criminality.

[Humanist_Activist]

128. Oh, it might also be because their mother resorts to spankings as a form of discipline. n/t

[romanic]

140. You'll get flack for saying that from some, but I agree.

Children benefit from a (good) father figure. Sadly thier dad seems to be the opposite as he is in prison. The mother alone can't handle that many kids no matter if she beat thier asses or not.

[Humanist_Activist]

150. I think that's bullshit, I had a friend growing up who became a well adjusted man...

because his mother left his abusive father and moved in with another woman. He was better off with two good moms than one awful dad.

Growing up lower class means you know all sorts of families and family types.

[romanic]

231. I said "good" father figure.

Obviously a shitty father is equivalent to having no father at all, but I'm sure most kids and households benefit from having both the mother and father in the same house raising them.

[treestar]

157. There are a lot of boys without fathers who do not end up committing crimes.

[lumberjack_jeff]

192. Those without fathers are more likely to grow up to be criminals. nt

[Humanist_Activist]

197. Is it lack of fathers or lack of stability and parental investment in child development?

Two parent households are, generally, higher income, more stable, and the parents in question are more likely to be involved in their children's academic and extracurricular activities.

[lumberjack_jeff]

234. .

[Major Nikon]

241. The abuse piece is also associated with negative outcomes

So the very thing some people seem to think will prevent criminality has the opposite effect. Children growing up without two custodial parents is often beyond the control of single parents. Abusing or not abusing children is very much within the control of all parents.

[LeftyMom]

191. .

[adigal]

163. A white woman, especially if pretty, wouldn't have been arrested for this

In fact, people would have been blaming some random "angry black man" who came in and hit her kids.

Sheesh. I should have known she was a POC from how she was treated.

[Humanist_Activist]

179. I like how there's an outpouring of support for an abuser, but not the abused...

did they do wrong? Yes, but no one, not even a parent, has the right to beat them.

[adigal]

238. Many people don't see her as an abuser

Or see this as "beating" her children.

We aren't going to agree, so I'm done.

[840high]

183. Crap.

[RazBerryBeret]

186. I would have gotten spanked for stealing when I was a kid...

my parents were big believers in physical punishment. My dad one time made my younger brother and I go to the woods and pick our own switch, which he would then use to spank us... we spent hours in the woods trying to figure out which type of branch would hurt less... thin and green, or larger and not as bendy.... ha. we switched each other so many times "experimenting" that the actual parental switching wasn't really that bad....

I didn't spank my kids.....

[Humanist_Activist]

189. Goddamn, I just can't imagine my dad doing that, that's fucked up...

I mean, when I was little, I got swatted a few times(no weapons used), but that stopped well before I was 10, sister wasn't really disciplined like that at all. In fact, I remember my Mom throwing a fit at my elementary school because they still practiced corporal punishment and thought to punish me for defending myself from a school bully. They used a big paddle, it hurt.

After that, my parents never laid a hand on me or my sister. Ground us, take away TV and video game privileges, sure, but what you describe, Jesus, that's just fucked up.

[RazBerryBeret]

196. now, it does seem fucked up...

but it was a different time, and I am probably a better person because of it. (at least I hope there was some benefit)

I did not spank my kids. a swat to the hand for playing with electric outlets (oldest was freakin obsessed with them!) but never anything like I was raised. My kids have heard all the stories.

[Humanist_Activist]

198. The evidence suggests that you were lucky to not develop problems...

http://news.utexas.edu/2016/04/25/risks-of-harm-from-spanking-confirmed-by-researchers

[RazBerryBeret]

200. whew...

lucky for me...they could have made me a conservative!
hahah. JK.

interesting article tho

[Humanist_Activist]

201. Making it an OP, a lot of people are under the impression that spanking does some good...

if the evidence for that doesn't exist, and in fact, as it appears, it actually causes problems with people who grow up being spanked, then we should focus on ways to reduce and eliminate corporal punishment altogether.

[UMTerp01]

194. Whatever....I got my ass whooped as a child

Both of my parents used to tear my little ass up and I'm not aggressive, don't have a short temper, and don't think it was abuse. There's a difference between discipline and abuse. My parents weren't about no damn "time out". They took time out to whoop my ass and I thank them for it cuz I see these little bratty ass kids out here who run all over their parents because they don't have any fear in them. Guess what? Not a bad thing for a kid to have a little fear in them. I didn't get spanked with the belt often, but when I did you better believe I deserved it. This is also tends to be very cultural so I think people need to stay in their own lanes when it comes to disciplining and children. If you didn't get whooped and turned out great well whoopty damn doo. I got whooped and turned out great as well. It works if you do it right. My parents explained to me the consequences if I did x, y, and z. So I knew I had a choice from the beginning and that if I got caught then I was going to get my ass tore up.

[kcr]

195. But the people who turned out great without beatings

got childhoods without beatings. Turning out great with beatings vs turning out great without. I don't know, but that seems like an easy choice to me. I vote no to beating kids.

Also, I'd like to know how one can tell how how all those bratty kids are being raised. That's an impressive skill.

[Humanist_Activist]

199. You sound like an abuse victim trying to justify what was done to them, and I'm sorry for you...

you should get help.

[UMTerp01]

244. I sound like a child who got consequences for making bad choices....

... Who turned out pretty darn well. If I was an "abuse" victim then why don't I have lingering hate for what my parents did to me? Why do I not engage in abusive relationships? Again, there is no playbook for how to raise a child. Parents who abuse their children vs properly disciplining them have issues. Furthermore, it wasn't a constant thing. I didn't get whooping often. In my childhood, less than 10 times but it was for things that were very serious. Plenty of kids who didn't get discipline and grew up thinking there were no consequences for their actions don't always turn out well either.

So again, people need to stay in their own lane when it comes to the issue of physical discipline. It worked for me. I'm also a Black/Latino man so my parents understood that the ramifications for my Black ass doing something that most White kids could otherwise get away with was a real thing. They didn't want their child becoming another statistic, and I didn't become one.

[LarryNM]

205. Jailing the Mother and Taking away the Children

totally over the top, regardless of pro and con spanking issues.
More harm done. Typical Elitist attitudes.

[TomJulie]

209. Every kid is different....

My dad was tough. It wasn't a democracy in our home. He was the dictator. I got a belt whupping more than once and sometimes had marks left on my backside. I wasn't a good kid in my younger days. If not for my dad being strict on me there's no telling how I would have turned out. Even with the spankings I had, I wouldn't trade my dad for any dad in the world.

I learned from a early age. There's 2 things I better not do. Lie and talk back to my mother.

My dad owned 1 section of land about 35 miles from our home. EVERY Saturday morning, rain sleet or shine. I went with him to string fence, haul hay, feed and sometimes vaccinate cows and we build a large hay barn. After the day was over and we were back home he threw me the keys to their car and said go have fun.

When I started my 1st job right out of high school, after about a month, my boss called me in to his office and asked me, did you work when you were growing up? I said yes and what I do here is easy compared to what I did while I was in school. He said, I can tell. After that conversation my boss really seemed to like me.

[Humanist_Activist]

212. So you deserved the abuse?

Wow, just fucking, wow, so many abuse victims not even recognizing what they went through, I hope that you don't treat your children like you were treated. This is the cycle of violence that people talk about.

[Number23]

221. I find your racing up and down this thread demanding people who see things differently than you do

that they "get help" as far, FAR worse than any of the stories from those saying they got spanked as kids.

You've posted in this thread more than the OP and every post is patronizing, self-righteous and incredibly unnecessary. If you think that you are a suitable ambassador for the No Spanking sect, you TRULY could not be more wrong.

[Humanist_Activist]

222. I'll be honest and say I'm appalled, absolutely, by some of the stories I read here on this thread..

I mean, one person describing their mother dislocating her own shoulder to beat his brother, another saying they would take a horsewhip to their own child. And they defend these actions, there is something deeply wrong with that.

[Number23]

224. That does seem extreme and it's okay to be appalled. Be as appalled as you want

But the patronizing, self-righteousness needs to stop. Your never ending attempts to pat yourself on the back for acknowledging how "brutal" spanking is just seems bizarre.

[840high]

232. .that^

[TomJulie]

236. Many years ago...

Dad, mom, my sister & I were traveling through Arizona during a summer vacation. I was around 14 at that time. We didn't have anything in our car to drink but I told dad I was thirsty. OK, son. My dad slowed down and pulled off on the side of the road, then stopped. He said, OK son, go get a drink. Go get a drink? Where can I get a drink? There's nothing out here. Son, then what do you want me to do? I don't know, dad. He said, I guess you'll have to wait till we can find a place that has something to drink. I didn't complain about being thirsty anymore.

I still laugh every time I think about that.

[DustyJoe]

226. damned if they do and damned if they don't

The mother punished them finding out they committed burglary and theft.
These aren't toddlers, but preteen and teenaged.

How would the mother fare on this board of 'don't punish the kids' if they had of been shot by the homeowner, or even worse had police been called and showed up with full swat, had a standoff and a few of her boys killed ? She would be called a bad mother, worthless disciplinarian etc.

The woman has her hands full with 6 kids and having half of her family putting themselves and homeowners in harms way burglarizing homes. She was probably scared to death for the boys and her punishment was much less than an angry homeowner or cops would deal out.

How many here scared their parents bad enough to get spanked by not coming home on time, getting lost, being found in a dangerous situation ? Parents first respond with hugs and relief their child is unhurt, then comes down the hammer.

[Major Nikon]

233. Hardly

The people who would be blaming the mother for not abusing her children would be the same ones claiming such abuse is effective contrary to exhaustive research and authoritative opinions, not the people who are claiming such abuse is counterproductive.

Claiming 'don't abuse your children' = 'don't punish the kids' is just silly. Beating children until they are bruised and bloody not only doesn't improve their behavior, but actually has the exact opposite effect. So there's much more reason to believe the children's bad behavior was caused by years of abuse.
http://news.utexas.edu/2016/04/25/risks-of-harm-from-spanking-confirmed-by-researchers

[merrily]

227. Another DU thread this evening says 50 years of research shows all "spanking" is harmful.

However, when an adult needs a weapon to hit a child, it's even woprse.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027952859

Anyone who wants to cling to the idea that it's your prerogative to abuse a child you brought into the world should ask himself or herself why its so important to cling to it.

[uponit7771]

235. So a practical better way would be to do what?

Seems she needs answers vs scorn, few sane people want to openly abuse their children

NOT empowering the parent with practical answers seems to exacerbate that issue no?

Thx in advance

[Major Nikon]

243. Following the advice of virtually every well respected expert on the subject

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/101/4/723