I hope results of the BREXIT decision will motivate Hillary to be particularly vocal about TPP!

[Akamai]

Donald Trump is certainly going to try to ride BREXIT decision and this may gain him some popularity, especially in the states hollowed out by free trade.

I agree with Thom Hartmann that Sec. Clinton needs to vocalize her strong opposition to the Transpacific Partnership and announce her deep suspicion of free-trade deals in general. I think Bernie Sanders has been absolutely correct [[for many, many years] with his criticism of all of the trade deals that have been agreed to by the United States government, including: WTO, GATT, Favored Free Trade Status for China,the South Korean Trade deal, etc.

The American people have long known that these "free trade" deals have devastated America, hollowing out the inner cities, etc.

Our country cannot be great simply on revenues generated by financial institutions or the largess of billionaires. We must return productivity to this country and make things here again. We also have to call out the Republicans who time after time have prevented Obama and Americans from job creation, such as repairing our crumbling infrastructure. We have to increase tariffs to support un-American working force. (The other major countries of the world already have what is equivalent to tariffs--Value Added Taxes. We are the only major country that does not have this tariff system.)

If candidate Hillary Clinton does not quickly and strongly condemn Free Trade Agreements, Donald Trump has a heck of a good chance of winning the White House.

So, Mdm. Sec., let us hear your strong full-throated cry to stop the TPP!

[X_Digger]

1. K&R n/t

[pampango]

2. The only connection between Brexit and free trade is that the UK will now be using WTO trading rules

rather than the EU's rules which have high labor and environmental standards. If UK voters thought Brexit would limit free trade, they did not do their homework and are in for a bid disappointment.

UK's Conservative Boris Johnson (likely the next prime minister) will turn the UK into a "hyper-capitalist island freed from EU regulation" and a "neoliberal fantasy island" in his own words now that the EU is out if the picture.

The other major countries of the world already have what is equivalent to tariffs--Value Added Taxes. We are the only major country that does not have this tariff system.

Value Added Taxes are not tariffs. Tariffs increase the cost of imported items only. VAT's increase the price of both imported and domestically made goods by the same amount.

A 20% VAT increases the price of a $20,000 car by $4,000 whether it is made in the US, Germany or Japan. A VAT is a good way that progressive countries raise lots of revenue which they use on progressive programs, but it does not function as a tariff since it does not target imports.

The countries with VAT's actually import much more than the US imports - which shows it does not have the effect of a tariff. Germany imports 3 times as much as the US. Sweden 2 1/2 times, etc.

[Akamai]

5. Let's see what Wikipedia says about VAT taxes.

This is from the Wikipedia entry on VAT taxes:

"Imports and exports[edit]
"Being a consumption tax, VAT is usually used as a replacement for sales tax. Ultimately, it taxes the same people and businesses the same amounts of money, despite its internal mechanism being different. There is a significant difference between VAT and Sales Tax for goods that are imported and exported:

"VAT is charged for a commodity that is exported while sales tax is not
Sales Tax is paid for the full price of the imported commodity, while VAT is expected to be charged only for value added to this commodity by the importer and the reseller

"This means that, without special measures, goods will be taxed twice if they are exported from one country that does have VAT to another country that has sales tax instead. Conversely, goods that are imported from a VAT-free country into another country with VAT will result in no sales tax and only a fraction of the usual VAT. There are also significant differences in taxation for goods that are being imported / exported between countries with different systems or rates of VAT. Sales tax does not have those problems – it is charged in the same way for both imported and domestic goods, and it is never charged twice.

"To fix this problem, nearly all countries that use VAT use special rules for imported and exported goods:

"All imported goods are charged VAT tax for their full price when they are sold for the first time
"All exported goods are exempted from any VAT payments
"For these reasons VAT on imports and VAT rebates on exports form a common practice approved by the World Trade Organization."

****************

The above several lines show how a VAT tax functions as a Tariff, in making imported goods more expensive than goods made in the country. Also, it even goes further than a Tariff and makes exports cheaper.

And that's the way the rest of the leading countries do it! And we can do it too!

Bernie's sure right on the important of "protectionist" tariffs and encouraging the return of manufacturing to the US!

[pampango]

6. That is not what it says.

The wiki says that imports are assessed the VAT.
Domestically produced goods that are exported are not subject to a VAT.
Domestically produced goods that are purchased in country do pay a VAT.

For a customer in a VAT country a $20,000 car is assessed the VAT whether it is imported or produced in country. If the car is exported there is no VAT.

As I said, if the VAT functioned as a tariff, countries with a VAT would import less than non-VAT countries. That is not the case.

[Akamai]

9. Let's take a look at unpacking this. As the US is a country that doesn't impose a VAT tax and

isn't part of a VAT framework as the countries of Europe are, when we sell goods to another country -- say France -- countries with an internal VAT tax have an advantage over us. Because we cannot make exports cheaper or imports more expensive.

In importing products from other countries our tariffs are incredibly low, and thus we compete with the lowest paid workers throughout the world.

Let's take a look at what you wrote:
"The wiki says that imports are assessed the VAT. Domestically produced goods that are exported are not subject to a VAT [observation mine--and so those exports are less expensive]. Domestically produced goods that are purchased in country do pay a VAT [and that is why when Thom Hartmann was in Australia about 15 years ago, he bought a nice coat, was told to keep the receipts, and when he left at the airport, he was reimbursed a lot of money for the value-added tax]."

So for domestic products produced in a country with VAT taxes, exporting them reduces their price in other countries who are part of the VAT arrangement.[But we are one of the few major countries without anything like the VAT taxes.)

I must admit, I'm not an economist--most of what I have learned about national economic policy was learned by listening to the Thom Hartmann show and trying to follow up as much as I can. On the other hand, I really do recommend the book "Bad Samaritans: The Myth of Free Trade and the Secret History of Capitalism" by Ha-Joon Chang. I have given copies of this book to friends and family. I have learned nothing in the last 5 years to refute it and I have been looking.

Are you for keeping our tariffs low?

Are you for the TPP, our "Free Trade Agreements" in general? You think NAFTA worked out great? That our jobs DID NOT go overseas? That the richest 1% and corporations did not get richer while the rest us got poorer with these "agreements," made in secret by only corporatists at the table?

That H. Ross Perot was in error in the 1992 debates when he said: "We have got to stop sending jobs overseas. It's pretty simple: If you're paying $12, $13, $14 an hour for factory workers and you can move your factory South of the border, pay a dollar an hour for labor,...have no health care—that's the most expensive single element in making a car— have no environmental controls, no pollution controls and no retirement, and you don't care about anything but making money, there will be a giant sucking sound going south...when [Mexico's] jobs come up from a dollar an hour to six dollars an hour, and ours go down to six dollars an hour, and then it's leveled again. But in the meantime, you've wrecked the country with these kinds of deals."

You think Perot was wrong about this?

Do you think we should bring manufacturing jobs back to the U.S.?

Anyway...

Take a look at an excellent video on Democracy Now (with the great Goddess Amy Goodman):

[pampango]

17. When the US exports a $20,000 car we don't add a VAT (because we don't have one). When France

exports a $20,000 car they don't add the VAT (because exports are exempt).

When a French person buys a French-made car they do pay the VAT. When a French person buys a US-made car they do pay the VAT.

You are right. The fact that exports from VAT countries are exempt from the VAT makes exports more attractive to manufacturers. In this example, they export the car at $20,000 while a French customer would have to pay $24,000 (assuming a 20% VAT). The American car company exports the $20,000 car at $20,000 but may prefer to sell it domestically since it costs the American consumer $20,000 - the same as the export cost.

If the US adopted a 20% VAT it would make our manufacturers lean more toward exports since they are exempt from the VAT. But it would also mean that our consumers pay 20% more for both US-made and imported cars. That makes adopting a VAT difficult politically even if it is good policy.

[Akamai]

19. "That makes adopting a VAT difficult politically even if it is good policy." There is pain in going

to the dentist as well, although we recognize that in the long run, going to the dentist is a good thing.

I applaud you for thinking that adopting the VAT program may be good policy, and we certainly need politicians and leaders who are willing to motivate us to put up with some pain in order to have a vibrant economy, one with real jobs, healthy employment. None of the countries of Europe or around the world using the VAT taxes approach would think of employing our own system of incredibly lax tariffs. We also don't encourage exports much in this country unless they are from corporate giants such as Boeing, Microsoft, and Nike.

Since Reagan's "greed is good" mentality has taken root, we have become a much more competitive, uncaring society with our goals so minimized that now we think that if we simply run faster than the other person, we are winning. (Ronald Reagan told the story of the two hikers out in the woods who encounter a bear. One of the hikers sits on the stone and starts taking off his boots and putting on his running shoes. The other hikers says, "What are you doing? The bear cannot run you?" And the other hikers says come up and could I don't have to outrun the bear--I just have to outrun you!&quot

Bernie Sanders has also recognized that his program will raise taxes on Americans but it will also increase services and benefits to all. Secretary Clinton ran her campaign saying that she was opposed to raising taxes. I certainly hope that she will adopt more of Sen. Sanders' ideas on the need to raise taxes a bit (and more on the wealthy who can afford to pay more taxes) while we increase services to all. This is clearly what the majority of American people want.

Joe Biden had a wonderful phrase: "A budget is a moral document. Don't tell me what you believe--show me your budget and I will tell you what you believe!" I sure believe that sentiment is absolutely correct.

[tritsofme]

3. I think Brexit will make concluding TPP even more urgent for world leaders.

Hillary might run on renegotiating certain aspects of the agreement, but she won't scrap it. I actually think a vote for approval in the lame duck is exceedingly likely.

Don't be surprised if Britain considers joining TPP after they conclude a new agreement with the EU. I doubt there will be a bilateral US/UK trade deal, so TPP might be the only vehicle to make it happen. Along with uniting the 1st, 3rd, and 5th largest global economies into a single free trade zone, it would also constitute a vast majority of the Anglosphere in the US, Canada, NZ, UK, and Australia.

It's a new world, and it will be interesting to see what emerges.

[Shandris]

4. Her 'strong opposition'. LOL.

Sorry. Seem to have gotten something stuck in my throat for a moment. I'm better now.

[geomon666]

8. I nearly choked on my own spit reading that.

Good heavens, what a line.

[swhisper1]

12. me too, must be catching

[forjusticethunders]

7. I've actually heard a few things about it that are promising

Basically what needs to happen with the TPP is that, instead of locking in neoliberal privatization backed by the force of massive economies of scale, it needs to lock in the opposite. I've been told it actually has provisions of the agreement that function similarly to the original Wagner Act, in that it guarantees the right to unionize, minimum wages (imagine a deal that guarantees a minimum wage enough to cover weekly cost of living x 1.25?) and working conditions. That needs to be expanded on. Similarly, provisions that cater to corporate power need to be weakened or removed. You can "keep" the provision that allows corporations to sue governments, but it would require a VERY high standard of evidence, so high that unless it was a government that was engaging in outright crony capitalism, it would be impossible to win a case. And of course the highest environmental standards with strong enforcement.

What the left needs to be doing is to organize to make globalization work on the worker's terms, not falling into reactionary protectionism to try to hang on to the scraps that their forbears won.

[swhisper1]

11. and all the regulations cancel each other out, very cagey legal manipulation

[Aerows]

14. Brawndo has all of the electrolytes your body needs.

No need for that stuff out of the toilet.

[Akamai]

16. Until it is negotiated in the open, slowly and gradually, I don't trust the negotiations, and

Last edited Sat Jun 25, 2016, 01:14 AM - Edit history (1)

neither should the American people. Average Americans think life goes on and we simply have to show up for work, do our jobs, and okay things happen. But for those in power, their object is to get more and more of what the rest of us have.

And the media tells us not to pay attention, that it is okay for us--as Dorothy does in the movie, Wizard Of Oz --we can fall asleep before we get to the gates of the Emerald City.

These trade agreements have been very destructive to American families, to our future, and until we have a slow and gradual building up of our rights, our job futures, we should be very suspicious.

[swhisper1]

10. stay tuned

[swhisper1]

13. agree

[MisterP]

15. also I hope that Liz Fowler speaks up about the ACA's downsides!

and Kissinger really lays into Nixon bombing Laos and Cambodia!
Bush could've won more states in 2004 by opposing Iraq!

[MohRokTah]

18. TPP is one area where I disagree with our nominee.

I wish she would support it, it is vital to the future of global trade.

Globalism is good. The world is not yet flat. When workers the world over eventually compete on even footing, then the world will be flat.

The TPP is just another small step towards equalizing living standards and worker's rights on a global basis and I fully support it.

I want to live in a world where everybody enjoys the same standard of living. I want to live in a world where a Nigerian network engineer gets upset because his job was outsourced to a worker in Kentucky.