I still see the TPP as a significant threat to our rights

[cali]

Last edited Sat Jun 25, 2016, 05:22 PM - Edit history (1)

There used to be a lot of interest in the TPP here. That seems to have dissipated somewhat.

Some of the things that are alarming. This is by no means a comprehensive list:

Copyright provisions, Chapter 18:

Harsh criminal penalties for infringers, even those with no profit motivation.
http://infojustice.org/archives/35766

Pharmaceutical and generic drugs:

"Evergreening". Forcing member countries drug patent extensions and diminishing access to generic drugs.
http://infojustice.org/archives/35908

Lack of strong enforcement provisions for violators across a wide range of issues including labor rights and the environment
http://ecowatch.com/2016/06/07/tpp-climate-change/
https://rightswireblog.org/2016/02/02/how-the-trans-pacific-partnership-fails-human-rights/
https://www.hrw.org/news/2016/01/12/qa-trans-pacific-partnership

Weakening of the none too strong Dodd-Frank legislation. As Elizabeth Warren said, it would "punch holes" in it.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/wp/2015/05/11/elizabeth-warren-fires-back-at-obama-heres-what-theyre-really-fighting-about/

ISDS: It's unbalanced. It favors corporations
http://boingboing.net/2016/06/16/canadian-trade-policy-expert-c.html

Biodiversity:
https://www.thenation.com/article/the-trans-pacific-partnership-will-hurt-farmers-and-make-seed-companies-richer/

[90-percent]

1. Yet more stuff for us average struggling aging people to worry about

The Oligarch's are getting medieval on the planet and seemingly want to extract every amount of money they possibly can from those of us that aren't on the Boards of Multi national corporations.

So I have to worry about my rapidly declining health

The loss of my white collar career - been a machine operator for nine years now

Global Warming

Net Neutrality

Private prisons

Terribly unjust draconian randomly enforced unfair and stupid laws

The four Zappa siblings quarreling about the Zappa Family Trust

In summary, the primary root of all my fears in life originate from the greedy bastards that are running the planet to death in the name of short term greed. Incomprehensible billions of dollars of greed. And stupidity. The most reptilian sociopathic personalities of the entire world are running everything like spoiled children.

-90% Jimmy

[90-percent]

2. PS

This Brexit thing could be a positive indicator to the Oligarch's that propaganda and the big lie work just like they wanted it to. Orwellian and a damn good business decision besides.

-90% Jimmy

[99th_Monkey]

37. Orwellian for sure. Not sure it's "good business" though

I'd like to radically redefine what "good business" means, i.e. valuing workers, decent pay
and benefits, valuing customers, etc.

[Silver_Witch]

116. I remember when workers were valued!

It was not that long ago!

[SoLeftIAmRight]

6. getting medieval on the planet

with widespread support from both parties

[cali]

3. kick. Those cheering on the TPP would prefer to ignore

the evidence that it will cause more harm than good, across a wide spectrum, according to a staggering number of organizations and individuals with expertise.

[OrwellwasRight]

55. This ^^^^^

The significant risks far outweigh the minor and speculative benefits.

Here is a comprehensive compendium of its shortcomings: http://www.aflcio.org/content/download/174701/4156463/LAC+Report--Final+12-2-15+As+Adopted.pdf

[cali]

78. Thanks so much for that great link, Orwell

[Vincardog]

4. TPP is the best thing since The Black Death

[OrwellwasRight]

56. That's about right.

[MohRokTah]

5. Wow, everything you hate about it I find to be appealling.

I give my full support to this treaty!

[cali]

8. So you actually support making generic drugs more difficult to obtain?

That you support all that, tells me everything about you.

You support corporate "rights" over the rights of actual people if you find those items detailed in the OP "appealing".

Ugh. And that's putting it mildly.

[MohRokTah]

9. I find your analysis of the treaty lacking in any semblance to reality.

Your analysis of the treaty is horribly flawed and bears no resemblance to the actual truth of the treaty.

[cali]

13. It's not my analysis. And unless you can point out

flaws or inaccuracies, you're simply blowing hot air.

Tell it to Elizabeth Warren or Joseph Stiglitz or Robert Reich or Doctors Without Borders or the Sierra Club or the Natural Resources Defense League or the Rosa DeLauro- or any number of others who are widely considered knowledgeable on the TPP and oppose it.


http://robertreich.org/post/107257859130
http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/joseph-stiglitz-tpp-1.3515452

You don't post anything but YOUR opinion.

[MohRokTah]

14. I'm not going to spend hours writing a treatise on why the analysis is flawed.

The analysis is presenting an anti-trade agenda. End of discussion.

[cali]

16. And my respect for those who make claims without

any substantiation, is not exactly high.

The analysis provided is overwhelmingly not presenting an anti-trade agenda. You obviously don't read it and your claims to knowledge on the subject are hollow.

End of discussion from my perspective.

[MohRokTah]

17. And basing respect for people on a message board format is the height of silliness, IMO. eom

[99th_Monkey]

40. How does it feel to be hawking for greedy corporate interests?

If anything is the height of silliness, it is lauding the TPP without a
shred of credible information to back up your erroneous claims.

[MohRokTah]

43. Great!

If that was what I was doing.

Socialist rhetoric is tired nd has little to do with reality, didn't you know that?

[99th_Monkey]

49. Which "Socialist rhetoric" might that be?

Can you please be specific, as in copy and paste.

[AntiBank]

53. they mean anything that doesn't kowtow to neoliberalism, corporate

systemic control, and the globalist project of atomisation of democratic left wing power, be it in the public or private sector.

[99th_Monkey]

54. Ah, ok.. THAT Socialist rhetoric! I'll own that.

Thanks for playing ..

[Marr]

87. That would at least be some kind ethos.

I think it's really something much closer to empty-headed celebrity worship. They can tell the party leadership is for it, so they're for it.

[AntiBank]

89. North Korea Dear Leaderism

it's sickening to see

[HughBeaumont]

93. Oh great.

Red baiting. That's what was missing.

[turbinetree]

32. Hey Cali------------------

thank you for the information it reinforces what I think of this "trade deal"


Honk-------------------for a political revolution

[cali]

38. You are so welcome, turbinetree.

If you ever want facts on the TPP, just do a search on DU for cali TPP. I must have posted 50 fact filled ops going back 4 years.

[turbinetree]

134. I have been reading your threads for about three years now--------------------------

I have your back



Honk-----------------for a political revolution

[Marr]

85. Its obvious to anyone reading that you won't because you can't.

You only 'support' it because the party leadership supports it.

[Bradical79]

115. Sources would be fine

You don't have to spend hours debunking the claims of the articles. If you were an expert on this thing, I assume you already would've done the work already since your opinion would be pretty important. If you have an informed opinion, I wouldn't mind reading the sources that informed that opinion.

[AntiBank]

29. answer cali's simple question. its NOT analysis

Do you support evergreening of drug patents?? Yes or no???

[MohRokTah]

44. I agree it's not really analysis.

It's ridiculous hyperbole.

[AntiBank]

48. answer the question

Do you support the evergreening of drug patents?

[MohRokTah]

58. I did. eom

[AntiBank]

60. show me where you answered yes or no to support for the evergreening of drug patents

give me the link please to your post where you answered it

[MohRokTah]

61. It's there, though not the answer you want.

There is no absolute black and white in the world.

[AntiBank]

64. In this case it is black or white. You either support evergreening the patents or your do not.

Last edited Sun Jun 26, 2016, 07:27 AM - Edit history (1)

so which is it?

Do you support it or not?

Yes or No?????????

[MohRokTah]

65. I reject the basis of your premise as nothing more than rhetorical nonsense. eom

[AntiBank]

75. NO. You simply refuse to answer one simple question. Furthermore:

Last edited Sun Jun 26, 2016, 07:26 AM - Edit history (1)

Anyone reading this entire exchange starting with Cali and yourself on will see that you are absolutely and utterly obtuse. You play bullshit semantic avoidance games from the start. You use an incredible amount of circular reasoning and other logical fallacies. You posit an opinion, a broad yet simplistic one devoid of any detail, then use that opinion as a fallback defense as if it were some fact.

That's fucking PURE SOPHISTRY. I have seen you employ the same methods in other places, almost alway in defence of some neoliberal, corporatist, borderline if not outright right wing posture, or other absolutely non progressive stances. It seems as if you just want to toss shit out there to disrupt, as you never engage in good faith discussion, you merely play pedantic word games.

[MohRokTah]

80. I answered your question. That you refuse to accept the answer is your problem, not mine. eom

[AntiBank]

81. you NEVER answered it. you are a pendantic game player

go back to arguing with your imaginary friends

[MohRokTah]

82. Again, I answered your question. You simply refuse to accept the answer. eom

[AntiBank]

83. show me your answer

[MohRokTah]

84. I showed youo, again, you refuse to accept it. eom

[AntiBank]

86. you damn well know you never fucking did

I am calling you out.

You support the evergreening of drug patents. That's despicable.

[MohRokTah]

88. And now you make things up about me.

[AntiBank]

91. bullshit, you support the TPP, which allows for evergreening

case closed.

Pathetic to see a person on a progressive board shill out for corporate undemocratic tyranny.

[MohRokTah]

92. Even more making up shit.

And you would know you are just making shit up if you had actually read my answer.

So now, let me answer one more time. The claim that the TPP will result in "evergreening" is complete and utter bullshit. It is a lie made up by people who have an anti-trade agenda and only seek to defeat ANY trade agreement.

Again, I reject the basis of your premise as pure bullshit rhetoric.

[cali]

94. You know, I said I wouldn't continue engaging with you, but I just

have to say, if you make a claim, such as this: The claim that the TPP will result in "evergreening" is complete and utter bullshit.", it is incumbent on you to provide some evidence of your claim. I would be glad to read it.

[MohRokTah]

95. And now you engage in a logical fallacy.

You are asking me to prove a negative.

The original claim is that the TPP will result in "Evergreening" The claimant with the initial positive assertion is under the burden of proof.

I am not falling into your fallacious nonsense. I will not attempt to engage in proving a negative.

I have seen the claims with nonsense bullshit being all that backs it up. I reject the nonsense bullshit.

[cali]

96. Nothing buit puerile insults. That's it. That is the whole sum of your "argument"

I posted links and evidence. You have responded with nothing but lamest insults. No evidence at all.

Now, you and I really are done. You have nothing.

Welcome to populating my very short ignore list.

[MohRokTah]

97. You posted the links and "evidence"

I reject that analysis as pure unadulterated bullshit rhetorical nonsense with no resemblance to actual reality

And there was no one whit of personal insult. I engaged in logical debate. And now, you run away.

[AntiBank]

101. Impact Of The TPP On The Pharma Industry (showing EXACTLY that the TPP puts evergreening into play)

http://www.ip-watch.org/2015/12/02/impact-of-the-tpp-on-the-pharma-industry/


The final text of the Trans-Pacific Partnership confirms beyond doubt the apprehensions expressed by civil society, academia and the generic industry about new barriers to access to medicines. The TPP has done away with several flexibilities provided under the TRIPS Agreement and the Doha Declaration on Public Health. Though the text mentions “nothing in this [IPR] Chapter limits a Party’s rights and obligations under Article 31 of the TRIPS Agreement,” the TPP Investment Chapter overrides these flexibilities, says D G Shah.

Executive Summary

The final text of the Trans-Pacific Partnership confirms beyond doubt the apprehensions expressed by civil society, academia and the generic industry about new barriers to access to medicines. The TPP has done away with several flexibilities provided under the TRIPS Agreement and the Doha Declaration on Public Health. Though the text mentions “nothing in this [IPR] Chapter limits a Party’s rights and obligations under Article 31 of the TRIPS Agreement,” the TPP Investment Chapter overrides these flexibilities, says D G Shah.


The key elements in the TPP and their likely impact on pharmaceutical industry – both innovative and generic – are noted below:

Patentability Criteria

The TPP member states have surrendered their sovereign right to define ‘patentability’ criteria. Not only have they have surrendered their right, they have agreed to grant patents for:

a) new uses of a known product;
b) new methods of using a known product, or;
c) new processes of using a known product.


This would lead to the “evergreening” of patents and result in an average extension of monopoly by at least five years. Some can stretch it beyond five years, as was done by Novartis AG for Gleevec (imatinib). This would encourage innovators to go for low-hanging fruits at the cost of more difficult-to-succeed efforts. Generics will slow down and patients will have to wait longer for affordable treatments.

Patent Term Extension

The TPP member states have agreed to adjust the term of the patent for “unreasonable” delays in the issuance of patents. The “unreasonable” period is defined as “more than five years from the date of filing of the patent application”. Likewise, any delay in granting marketing approval for a drug will entitle the rights holder to extension of the patent term.

The patent term adjustment provision has several implications. First, it would enable the rights holder to delay launch of the product in relatively low-priced markets, particularly developing countries. Secondly, to delay the launch, the innovators may furnish even incomplete data to the drug regulator to show the approval process look tardy and inefficient.

Thirdly, it would thus deny access to a new medicine in the lower priced markets. Fourthly, even after the expiry of a patent in the developed countries, the product would retain monopoly status in the developing countries. This could on an average give at least two years of extended monopoly, further impacting generic growth and patient access.

snip



Under the TPP, America’s insanely high drug prices will be an unappreciated export

http://qz.com/543385/under-the-tpp-americas-insanely-high-drug-prices-will-be-an-unappreciated-export/


US drugs already have strong patent protections

US patents on traditional drugs last 20 years; once they expire, competitors can apply for permission to market a generic version. Generic manufacturers don’t have to repeat the entire costly process of clinical trials, though; a 1984 law called the Hatch-Waxman Act lets them rely on the brand-name drug’s clinical data if they can prove their generic drug is an equivalent.

Brand-name drug makers were aghast at the idea of allowing rivals to use their expensive clinical data to start robbing them of market share, of course. So Hatch-Waxman also contains a compromise: five years of “data exclusivity” after the 20-year patent expires, during which no one else can use brand-name clinical data to get a drug approved.

Generic drugs developed under this system have helped consumers in the US and around the world. But there is a strong case that 25 years of protection for traditional drugs is too long—and ultimately, a way for investors to extract rents (like the infamous case of Martin Shkreli, who bought a drug and raised the price 5,000%) rather than an incentive for innovation.
Obamacare made some protections even stronger

Nonetheless, certain kinds of drug patents ended up even better protected under the Obama administration’s Affordable Care Act (ACA).


The president and his team knew well that to pass a comprehensive overhaul of the health-care system, they’d need the health industry’s powerful players—big hospital chains and pharmaceutical makers, mainly—on their side, even as they found ways to spend less money on them.

To gain pharma’s support, the administration not only agreed not to use the government’s negotiating power to drive down drug prices, but also endorsed a 12-year period of data exclusivity for “biologics”—a class of drugs based not on inert chemical compounds but instead created from living cells, and seen as the next big thing in medical research. This concession was made despite arguments in a 2009 Federal Trade Commission report that biologics don’t need that kind of protection (pdf) because generic versions of them, known as biosimilars, are more difficult to develop than traditional generics.
Now the TPP is exporting those protections

The US sought to accomplish a half-dozen sometimes conflicting goals with the TPP: Open new markets for US exports and especially services; deepen economic linkages with Pacific states in a bid to contain China; convince China to continue liberalizing its economy; and generally raise economic standards, such as labor rights and environmental regulations, at a time when the main forum for doing this, the World Trade Organization, was deeply deadlocked.

Even supporters of the pact in America concede that it will result in low-skilled manufacturing jobs leaving the US for other countries. Though US negotiators included worker protections in the treaty, including the right to unionize, the wage gap between the US and, say, Vietnam or Peru, is just too large for many manufacturers to ignore.



But that sacrifice will be balanced out by benefits to US service industries, particularly those that make their money off intellectual property. When it comes to tech companies or Hollywood films, the higher prices these protections bring can be onerous to consumers, but arguably a lot more so when they involve prices not for entertainment but for health and medicines.
With Republicans in control of Congress, gaining approval of the TPP would in part be contingent on the support of pharma. So US negotiators presented demands opposed by every other country in the talks. The 12-year data exclusivity proposal for biologics was the most controversial, since it was new, well beyond global norms, and considered unnecessary by well-respected authorities. In the end, it was wrangled down to a range of five to eight years.

[RB TexLa]

122. You are going to find that to be the case anytime trade is discussed here

I swear there are some so isolationist they want to end trade across state lines as well.

[bvar22]

123. I would like to regulate trade across state lines.

That would do much to end the race to the we are now experiencing by offering Big Corps ZERO state taxes, cheap labor, and no UNIONS. The Big Boxes like WalMart would have a more difficult time spreading their disease across the country if there were minimum regulations.

[TheFarseer]

127. So you find Trans Canada suing the United States to be a good thing?

Because we wouldn't let them build a pipeline through OUR country? Because that's the kind of thing that will happen repeatedly with TPP.

[m-lekktor]

7. I do as well. nt

[cali]

10. If it's blue it must be true?

nothing like a rah rah team mentality.

When my "team" performs well and decently, I cheer. When it heads in a wrong direction, or when blue corruption is exposed, I speak out.

[m-lekktor]

12. I hear you. nt

[99th_Monkey]

41. +10

[bvar22]

11. DURec.

Thank You, Cali.

[cali]

15. Thank you, bvar! The collective DU opinion on the tpp

appears to have gone from questioning its value to cheering it on. I suspect the composition of DU has changed over the period time that I've been posting here about it.

I get insults from team rah rah, but nothing of substance.

[bvar22]

31. Same here.

I fear the TPP is a Done Deal, and will be signed quickly after Hillary sits in the Oval Office.

I inherited the Party of FDR/JFK from my parents, and did my best to stay true to those values and those of the Great Society, and will until the day I die.
I am ashamed of the World, and what passes for the Democratic (Workers) Party we are leaving to our children.

When we move out here in 2006, I swore off DU, but couldn't quit. The addiction was stronger than I thought. It will be easy to leave now. There are only a small handful of posters I respect, you among them.

I'm tired, frustrated, and getting too old to care what the others say.
It likely now that this is the 4th year in a row for drought and record HEAT.
We had no Winter this year, and that really screwed up the fruit trees, and the planting calendar is not worth anything now. Many locals who regularly grow large veggie gardens have given up on this year. Ever positive, my wife and I are going to try to make it work for us by radically modifying the planting calendar.

It is getting harder to keep up with this place, especially with the heat.
If this is the New Normal, then we are all fucked....sooner rather than later.

It sometimes seems as if the World is hurtling to some dramatic, climactic conclusion.
I hope I'm not here to see it.

[cali]

33. My interest in remaining here is waning. Substantive issues

don't receive the thoughtfulness that I wish they would- and I don't mean people just agreeing with me.

I hope the heat where you are abates and you get some relief. Good luck with the garden.

The respect you so kindly extended is reciprocal.

Sadly,

cali

[OrwellwasRight]

57. Is there a viable alternative space?

Discussionist seems far worse, populated by racists and freepers. Am I even allowed to ask that question?

[Stryder]

112. I was wondering the same thing.

In fact I just signed the don't rock the boat pledge so I could respond.
(I've been putting it off the last few days.)
I especially like how we no longer get to see what
causes a post to be hidden. Very helpful.

[laundry_queen]

73. Sadly

the composition of type of poster here has shifted dramatically over the last little while.

Many have left.

I'm with you on the TPP but I don't come here as much as I used to.

[AntiBank]

51. +100

[awoke_in_2003]

74. Good to see you, bvar

[AntiBank]

50. it is all they have to play with

This place is crawling with hard core neoliberals. They jump from issue to issue and try to enforce the corporatist collective mind set with groupthink bully tactics. Nothing substantive is allowed and straying from the simplistic top-down talking points is met with childish attacks.

[reflection]

18. I'm with you.

The elevation of corporate power above that of sovereignty is chilling to me.

[cali]

19. the evidence of corporate influence over the crafting of the TPP

is overwhelming.

Thanks for posting.

[LS_Editor]

20. TPP to Protect American Freedom to Not Afford Medicine

What's not to like?

TPP to Protect American Freedom to Not Afford Medicine

WASHINGTON (The Nil Admirari) - Earlier today, President Obama announced the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) - a massive multinational trade deal the president intends to sign - will protect the freedom of all Americans to not afford life-saving medicines. Instead, TPP will allow pharmaceutical companies to make more blood money by letting them keep longer patents on their drugs, and almost indefinitely prevent critical, far more affordable generic drugs from entering the American market.

+

Obama added, "Not only does TPP have the potential to bankrupt millions more American families like in the days prior to my signature healthcare law, but a flood of brand name drugs and no generic alternatives may also bankrupt programs like Medicare."

[cali]

21. And not only Americans!

I respect President Obama, but I think he's wrong on this.

(pretty funny piece. Onionesque)

[George II]

22. Yes, there was more interest in the TPP months ago, but mostly speculative interest...

....based on leaked "details" of drafts that were far from being finalized.

Since then, the real draft has been released and the document has turned out to be much less onerous than the selective details that were leaked.

It's not perfect, but no document in history has been perfect. Even the Constitution of the United States wasn't perfect when it was written, that's why there have been 20+ amendments to the Constitution.

[w4rma]

67. It's not even good. Perfect? It's stupidly horrible. It's a complete disaster.

There is *nothing* in the TPP worth passing.

[Indepatriot]

23. What do Hillary's handlers say she thinks about TPP this week?

Has she tweeted any bold position on it?

[stupidicus]

24. well those people are obviously all wet in their opposition

and must learn to walk like an Egyptian/move like Jagger -- like the rest of us...

If you think the newfound support for the TPP is something, just wait until the bombs start needlessly flying

[cali]

25. I find the "if it's blue, it must be true" mentality shocking.

I think some people truly think of politics as a game. They have a team and that's the beginning and end of how they approach any given issue.

[stupidicus]

30. so true cali

As Saint Raygun declared long ago -- one of the few things he got right -- our politics and morality are truly inseparable so the gamesmanship arises outta a need to protect the group you're associated with as well as the individuals ego.

The dynamics of all this, as well as the goals, differ little if at all coming from the left or right. In the case at bar here, it's merely how some alleviate the guilt by association their party ID provides.

It's merely the Raygun 11th Commandment as applied by his party/ideological opposition to their own.

[PufPuf23]

26. Good post. Thank you.

Doubt if any that support TPP will converse with you on issues.

[cali]

28. Thanks, PufPuf.

It appears as if many of those here supporting it, are supporting it because the President does.

I certainly haven't received any fact based arguments from those supporting it.

[TDale313]

27. It will be the final nail in our Democracy

And the transition to Oligarchy will be complete.

[shadowwinds]

34. Language is everything! We should start somewhere. I'm starting with the definition of a person.

In Chapter 1 of the INITIAL PROVISIONS AND GENERAL DEFINITIONS
on page 1-3


person means a natural person or an enterprise


Does this ring a bell?

Citizens United language all over again!!!!


I've been discussing this definition with my "evangelical relatives and friends" and asking them how their pastors are defining a person that is now "an enterprise". Where is the soul? Is it gone? Or, Is this the latest step in evolution? Human beings are now enterprises!!!

Not one of them has given me ANY answers!!!! needless to say, I tell them I am very concerned about this "new" definition of human being.

All of us should start going through this TPP and take it apart and just ask questions. Maybe we'll get some discussions going in all our associations with others as well as here on DU.

What say you???



“Remember the past, don’t hate, and don’t be a bystander.” Hedy Epstein

[cali]

90. It rings it loudly. And not just CU language.

[Teamster Jeff]

35. Thanks for all your TPP posts cali

[cali]

39. right back at you Jeff.

Thanks.

[OrwellwasRight]

59. You may be interestd to watch this trade conference on Tuesday.

[AtomicKitten]

36. k/r for the unvarnished truth

[smirkymonkey]

42. K&R

[Overseas]

45. So do I. Corporations already have too much power.

The Investor State Dispute System puts private profit above local regulations.

http://www.citizen.org/investorcases

And some of us remember all the rosy language about NAFTA lifting all boats.

[99th_Monkey]

46. Corporate lawyers, lobbyists & CEOs wrote the damn thing. What else can we expect?

Corporations suing states and municipalities to "recover lost profits", giving a
huge middle finger to the cause of environmentalism and climate change, while
pillaging the public treasury, all in one fell swoop.

Brilliant heist, but a heist nevertheless ... and the crooks are armed and dangerous,
which explains a lot. And this is just ONE of the many bothersome sections of
the TPP as we know it.

I am passionate about this TPP issue, as it cuts to the core of everything i love
about my country.

[cali]

47. I wish I knew why that doesn't trouble the people who support it.

Me too. I'm passionate about this issue as well.

[99th_Monkey]

52. It is interesting how many Pro-TPPers are coming out of the woodwork.

..flatly supporting TPP, but coming without a clue, or a shred of convincing evidence as
to the wonders of TPP, and how it's going to actually benefit anyone but the corporate elite's
who's-who list ... all the way down to the grunts & cronies in the security state.

The whole "trade" thing is merely rhetorical window dressing, since "no one in their right
minds would be against trade?"; to divert attention from the Oligarch's corporate coup de ta.

[Elwood P Dowd]

66. Slap the name "free trade" or "partnership" on one of these

investment/outsourcing/corporate takeover pieces of sheet, and that's all some people need to know before diving in head first.

[99th_Monkey]

69. That, and being supported by Obama

Obama right or wrong. rah rah

[w4rma]

68. Some "Democrats" *want* corporate governance. (nt)

[99th_Monkey]

70. I have heard of this

How odd. Extraordinary that a Democrat would want such a thing.

[w4rma]

72. These are the "Democrats" that want whatever their big donors want. (nt)

[cali]

105. And then their supporters reactively support that position.

[bvar22]

124. ...AND, they wrote it "in secret".

What else do you need to know?

If the TPP was something GOOD for the 99%, they would be shouting it from the mountaintops, not hiding in the dark like roaches and rats.

[99th_Monkey]

125. +10

[riderinthestorm]

62. Thank you cali. You've been tireless in trying to educate people here

There's no excuse for anyone not understanding the ramifications of this anymore.

You've been an outstanding teacher.

[cali]

77. that is very kind of you to say. I don't know how effective it's been

to post all these threads over the years, but I have tried to post the best sources I could find.

cheers, and thanks again

[LWolf]

63. So do I.

I suspect the TPP and other concerns are going to take a back seat, or be pushed under the rug, or many will "evolve" in solidarity with the presumed nominee at this point.

[IgelJames4]

71. Same here

It's a real pity our politicians don't understand why we're so resentful of such trade deals. Then again, many of them represent the 1%, and could care less about the rest of us.

[Jack Bone]

76. Thank you for the post Cali...K&R!

[midnight]

79. kick

[JEB]

98. K&R Thanks for posting this.

[cali]

99. And many thanks for kicking it. Yes. I think this is a critical issue.

(that's probably fairly obvious)

[JEB]

100. It stinks to high heaven, but certain powerful industries

love the smell. The smell of power and money.

[Bettie]

102. Thanks for posting, Cali

but, I suspect it's a done deal already.

Heck, I suspect it was a done deal long before we had even heard of it.

[cali]

107. Sadly, I agree with you, Bettie. But I still think it's worth fighting.

and really knowing what the TPP contains.

thanks for weighing in.

[NorthCarolina]

103. Big pharma disagrees with you. They see big $$$ in their eyes, and it

clouds their vision of morality.

[cali]

104. "evergreening" of patents is in the final text. Period. And yet there are people

denying that fact without providing ANY evidence to refute it. None exists, ergo it's not possible to provide the necessary evidence. It's mind boggling.

http://www.ip-watch.org/2015/12/02/impact-of-the-tpp-on-the-pharma-industry/

[NorthCarolina]

106. not "mind-boggling", just part of the Neoliberal agenda.

The Neoliberal agenda includes:

ELIMINATING THE CONCEPT OF "THE PUBLIC GOOD" or "COMMUNITY" and replacing it with "individual responsibility." Pressuring the poorest people in a society to find solutions to their lack of health care, education and social security all by themselves -- then blaming them, if they fail, as "lazy."

http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=376

[unapatriciated]

108. K&R

Thank you

[Arizona Roadrunner]

109. TPP ISDS process concerns

As a person who has served on a local government’s Board of Directors, I am VERY concerned about the TPP ISDS court process with results being the surrendering of governmental sovereignty to corporate interests, foreign and domestic.
Basically due to secretive deliberations, this “judicial” process is designed to favor corporate over governmental concerns and interests. This agreement should not allow corporations to use this judicial process, but should demand they use our existing judicial process as it relates to governmental entities. How many state and local governments can afford to be involved in such a process? Just by the threat of suits through ISDS, a climate where governmental units cave in will be created. Look at what has happened under NAFTA and the WTO as it relates to our right to know where our food comes from. Look at how a Canadian corporation is using NAFTA to sue the U.S. on the Keystone project.
This will mean that political topics such as minimum wage increases and housing and zoning laws may be pre-empted by just the threat of a suit through the ISDS process. Look at what happened with Egypt when a corporation tried to use a process analogous to the ISDS to prevent Egypt from raising their minimum wage laws. (Veolia v. Egypt)
Therefore, I recommend, in the national interest, this agreement not be approved. When people find out how this can be used to prevent them from finding out things such as where products are made, etc., there will be charges of treason and the political process will never recover the trust of the American citizens.

[Hoyt]

129. How come that has not happened with all the trade agreements since 1959 with similar provisions?

I guess one way to avoid your fear is for local communities to just say "NO" to Toyota/Honda/BMW/VW/Etc plants, Siemens factories, Airbus, BASF, Bridgestone, Michelin, Sony, GlaxoSmith, Zurich, Baher and a bunch more.

[Soxfan58]

110. Rights?

It's a direct threat to my job. I'm a American shoe maker

[cali]

111. Thank you for responding.

I don't know what to say to you really, beyond that you have my sympathies- and I know that's pretty lame.

[totodeinhere]

113. This just shows how complicated free trade issues can be. Yes there has been widespread opposition

to TPP and other so-called free trade agreements at DU. But then the Brexit vote happened and many at DU have called the victory for the "leave" forces a result of racism and xenophobia, but yet in voting to leave the EU the British people have voted to reject a major free trade agreement which is what the EU is. And it's not too dissimilar from TPP.

So we oppose TPP yet we also oppose the Brexit vote result yet both are about free trade.

[cali]

114. Yes. Things are complex. Seemingly paradoxical opinions may not be

as contradictory as they appear at first glance.

Honestly, I'm not nearly as well informed on the EU and brexit as I am on the TPP which I've been researching for years now. So my opinion on brexit and the EU is still being formed. I like to research stuff, but honestly one has to prioritize too. I'm a U.S. citizen. I know the world is connected, but one can't possibly be truly well informed about everything. Reconciling conflicting information is often difficult. How we view and process things differs.

[totodeinhere]

117. I'm not well versed on Brexit either. But I think the course of world events will cause us to

all become better informed about it. Many are predicting that the Brexit outcome will lead to a word-wide financial crisis the likes of which we haven't seen since the crash of 2008. And then we will all be affected. I apologize if I come off sounding like a fear monger but I do think that it's very serious.

[cali]

120. Please. No need at all for an apology. I appreciate your contribution

to the thread.

[Bradical79]

118. My problem with the trade discussion on this forum...

I see source after source after source giving analysis of specific aspects of these agreements talking about how bad they are for us. I don't recall anyone actually talking about how this agreement is good for us other than simply saying "it is", ad hominem attacks, and the occasional strawman argument. It's not very convincing.

[cali]

121. Yes. There has been a paucity of credible evidence for the benefits outweighing the

detrimental pieces- and most on the pro-side, won't even acknowledge the most obvious and well documented flaws.

Using the USTR and White House web sites is simply boosterism, not analysis.

Krugman has oft been sourced because he's "meh" on it.

[vintx]

119. Corporations have long sought ways to avoid being tied down by laws.

This is just the latest in a long line of efforts to achieve that goal.

And since corporations write the laws, and their leaders fund our lawmakers, well...

[Rex]

126. Notice that the pro-tpp folks in this very thread cannot give you just ONE positive net good

from passing the tpp? It is just, "I likes me some tpp eom."

[cali]

128. it's reactive, not informed.

Sure, people pro claim expertise but in this thread they don't back up their reasons for supporting it or link to evidence that contradicts what's posted in the op.

Thanks for posting- btw, there are some good pieces to the TPP, but lack of enforcement on such issues re Vietnam and labor practices, undermines the positive.

[Rex]

130. I know you've spent a lot of time looking it over, I just wish it would be made public

before any kind of vote. Secret deals like this never seem to have a net good for the working class...in any country. There seems to be a pattern with libertarian ideology and ruined governments.

[cali]

131. I'm a bit confused by your post

Are you referring to the document itself? It is available here:

https://ustr.gov/trade-agreements/free-trade-agreements/trans-pacific-partnership/tpp-full-text

the reason many of us consider it a done deal is that TPA (Trade Promotion Authority) has already passed. Many see that as having been the actual vote.

And of course, Senators can only vote yay or nay.

[Rex]

132. Thanks! I did not know it was released to the public.

Yes the document, I was wondering what source you must be reading to know so much about it.

[cali]

133. You're very welcome, Rex

I suggest going to sites that analyze specific chapters and issues.

For example, infojustice is great for copyright issues. The Sierra Club has provided a lot of analysis over the years on environmental issues. Both chapters were leaked a few years back. Both sites provide adjusted analysis for the final document.

[Rex]

135. Thanks that is a lot of reading material.

I will check out the Sierra Club, that is where my issues are with the environmental impact.