In case you missed it, Stephen King summed up the Freddie Gray BS in one Tweet

[Godhumor]

Gee, looks like NOBODY killed Freddie Gray. Guess he just died of being black. Funny how that happens in this country.

https://twitter.com/StephenKing/status/746096840324558848

[Press Virginia]

1. If there was evidence someone killed him, the prosecution should present it

[Hoyt]

3. At minimum, someone was quite negligent.

[Press Virginia]

4. Then the prosecutor should produce that evidence

[Hoyt]

7. Callous people don't care about Gray.

[Press Virginia]

11. The heroine dealer with a history of injuring himself to sue the PD?

He's not high up on the list. The prosecutors can't seem to prove their cases

[pkdu]

101. links to claims on self-injury ?

[uponit7771]

103. Link and quote? tia

[SidDithers]

155. ...

Bonus points for knowing the movie.

Sid

[Press Virginia]

156. Basketball diaries?

I'd lose a spelling bee for sure

[Act_of_Reparation]

175. Heroine dealer?

I'll take a dime bag of Ellen Ripley.

[rockfordfile]

179. yeah it shows

[TipTok]

189. How about rule of law and due process?

[Akicita]

91. Or the prosecutor should have charged them with negligence.

But the prosecutor went for the Hail Mary.

[Press Virginia]

92. The guy,who was just acquitted, was charged with negligence and official misconduct

Along with murder, manslaughter, criminally negligent homicide, involuntary manslaughter, vehicular homicide

[Akicita]

123. Then I guess the prosecution didn't have much for evidence at all.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

126. That does not follow, unfortunately.

"The prosecution did not have enough evidence to convince the judge" only implies "The prosecution did not have much evidence at all" if you have faith in the judge.

Actually, given the presumption of innocence, in general even that isn't true - even a good judge would vote to acquit if presented with a considerable amount of evidence that made guilt seem likely, but not certain beyond all reasonable doubt.

[Akicita]

127. Then I will rephrase. Apparently the prosecutors didn't have enough evidence to convict, even for

negligence. Happy now?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

129. That's true in one sense and may or may not be true in another.

It is self-evident that they did not have enough evidence to convince this judge to convict.

It may or may not be true - I don't know - that their evidence would have convinced other judges to convict.

The point I'm challenging you on, to be clear, is the assumption that "insufficient evidence of guilt" is the only reason people get acquitted - people sometimes also get acquitted because of judicial bias, especially, I suspect, if they're police officers.

Having said that, I should stress that I haven't looked at the details of this case - it may very well be that their really wasn't sufficient evidence to prove guilt, and that the judge's conduct was above reproach.

[Akicita]

131. That'sthe judge they had to convince. He is AA and a former civil rights attorney with a good record

Implying he may be guilty of judicial bias is a reach.

[rockfordfile]

180. I think that doesn't really matter

It seems that Judges always give the benefit of the doubt to cops.

[Akicita]

187. In our justice system, every defendant is supposed to be given the benefit of the doubt.

Conviction requires guilt beyond any reasonable doubt.

[TipTok]

190. A bit on the judge...

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/25/us/in-freddie-gray-trials-baltimore-judge-sets-high-bar-for-prosecution.html?_r=0

[lapucelle]

9. That's probably why the City of Baltimore

offered a multi million dollar settlement to the Gray family.

[Press Virginia]

12. Purely political.

[NutmegYankee]

16. Yeah that tragic broken neck thing sure is a silent killer...

People are just walking along and suddenly their vertebrae shatter, the spinal cord gets crushed and severed, they then fall to the ground, lose the bowels and die. Happens all the time!

[Press Virginia]

18. He had a history of self injury while in custody. The evidence doesn't support

wrongdoing by the police.
The last acquittal was proof of that

[NutmegYankee]

21. The only thing the last acquittal was proof of is we have an Injustice System.

And for the record, it's nearly impossible to break your own neck while restrained. If it was easier, people would commit suicide in prison via this method.

[Travis_0004]

30. It proves they could not prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt

When they charged multiple officers it proved they could not prove their case.

They charged 6 officers. Was one guilty. Probably? Were all 6? I don't think so. If the van driver gave him the rough ride, then I don't see how you charge anybody besides the van driver with manslaughter. Lesser charges, yes, but not manslaughter.

IMO when the prosecution did that, it showed they really didn't know who is responsible.

[tblue37]

36. The cop who knelt on his neck while arresting him probably did the

original damage, because Gray's legs were dragging when they took him to the van, and then the rough ride made sure he would not survive the damage to his neck even if it might have originally be survivable.

[Travis_0004]

38. And the other 4?

[tblue37]

42. Didn't strap him in, didn't render aid. nt

[Press Virginia]

54. And was acquitted because the evidence didn't support the charges

[Press Virginia]

60. The ME testified the injury happened between

the second and fourth stop

[tblue37]

102. The fatal damage occurred in the van, but the severe neck injury occurred while he was on the ground

If his neck had not been so badly injured in the first place, the unsecured ride in the van might not have done permanent harm--though it was still absolutely wrong to transport him handcuffed and unsecured, whether it was a deliberate rough ride or not.

Starting at 30 seconds into this video there is a segment just a few seconds long where the cops lift him off the ground in cuffs. His neck can't support his head, and his legs drag.

http://www.cnn.com/videos/justice/2015/09/09/freddie-gray-death-settlement-marquez-dnt-tsr.cnn/video/playlists/death-of-freddie-gray/


Starting at 9 seconds in this video, again for just a few seconds, we see them carrying him to the van. His legs are dragging and useless.

http://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2015/09/08/baltimore-freddie-gray-settlement-pkg.wjz/video/playlists/death-of-freddie-gray/

[Press Virginia]

110. That wasn't her testimony

[tblue37]

111. Whose? (I just grabbed the URLs and located the relevant sections). Since I'm severely

hearing impaired I don't watch people talking on videos.

[Press Virginia]

113. The Medical Examiner

[Akicita]

125. C'mon. We don't want to hear about actual testimony. Our conjecture fits our agenda better and is

therefore much more accurate.

[ReRe]

100. I totally agree. eom

[jack_krass]

77. Would throwning the (I believe) black driver of the police van into

Prison for life, when not a single person or camera caught the van driving recklessly have been "justice"? Would that jave made you feel better?

[Akicita]

124. That's what all this is about. Feeling better. Guilt or innocence is irrelevant. We need a

sacrifice to mollify the masses.

[LanternWaste]

159. I'd pretend that to be the case as well.

I'd pretend that to be the case as well. It better validates our biases to presume we know what others think and want.

(Seems both yours and mine are as relevant to the OP and brings as much substantive discussion as the other-- six of one, half a dozen of the other; though space provided free of charge below to rationalize yours as substantive. The bemusement would entertain a cool seven seconds of a boring Monday)

[TipTok]

191. Only if you set aside everything that has happened to this point...

Legally and politically...

The process so far has shown a near complete lack of proof that rises to the level of charges brought against the officers.

[Hoyt]

22. Other than right wing websites, do you have a source for your allegations?

[Press Virginia]

26. .

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/freddie-gray/bs-md-ci-gray-recusal-filing-20150806-story.html

[Rex]

31. Yet that link says nothing about the self injury, nice try.

"A corrections department spokesman said he couldn't confirm whether Gray had been injured at the jail without more information, such as the date of the alleged incident, which defense attorneys did not provide in their motion."

[Hoyt]

37. Not much proof there. But Fox News was quick to pick up Rector's story.

[Spacedog1973]

106. Its good enough for the poster

And thats all that matters. Theres a words and descriptive terms for it, well many, one of them would be confirmation bias.

[saidsimplesimon]

28. Dear Virginia,

Acquittals do not equal "no wrongdoing". There are other options available, as you well know?

The last acquittal was proof of that

[Press Virginia]

61. There was no criminal act

[passiveporcupine]

45. Apparently the PD also has a history of rough rides

By policy, detainees are supposed to be seatbelted and secured inside a van, and anytime an officer drives erratically to try to throw somebody around and injure them that is intentionally causing harm and that is not allowed under police procedures. There have been multiple lawsuits against the police department, over time, including some big judgments, for these kinds of actions.

There have been two enormous judgments, one for $39 million for one person, another for $7.4 million. We should say that both of those people were paralyzed. And a third woman is suing in federal court, a third person is suing in federal court.

And I want to read a quote — this is from “The Baltimore Sun”, from some of your colleagues reported. She’s described it this way, “They were breaking really short that I would slam against the wall, and they were taking really, wide fast turns. I couldn’t brace myself, I was terrified.”

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/police-responsible-death-freddie-gray/

And more:

Baltimore Police Commissioner Anthony Batts has admitted that mistakes were made after Gray's arrest.

Batts said during a press conference last week that Gray "was not buckled in the transportation wagon as he should have been ... we know our police employees failed to get him medical attention in a timely manner, muliple times."

http://www.businessinsider.com/report-freddie-gray-tried-to-hurt-himself-on-purpose-2015-4

[Beaverhausen]

98. The coroner ruled his death a homicide

[mythology]

197. That doesn't mean it was a crime, much less a provable crime

It means it wasn't natural causes or suicide.

[uponit7771]

104. Link and quote? tia

[lapucelle]

27. That's not what happened.

I'm not saying that the police aren't culpable, but I don't think it's helpful when the actual fact pattern is distorted. Freddie Gray was injured while in police custody, most probably fatally. He actually died in the hospital several days later.

I've often wondered why there has been a news blackout on what happened at the hospital in the intervening time between the injuries and the death. Why hasn't any journalist tried to get that story?

[NutmegYankee]

46. It's bitter sarcasm.

People don't break their owns necks without an external trauma, like a fall or diving right into the bottom of a pool.

[tblue37]

32. Gray's legs were dragging as he was taken to the van. Probably the damage was done

when the cop knelt on his neck, which has become standard operating procedure for cops these days--and often the cops are overweight, so they will do even more damage.

The video of his arrest shows his legs dragging uselessly.

Then he was tossed into the van and almost certainly given a "rough ride," which would have disastrously (read "lethally&quot exacerbated the damage to his neck, even if the damage wasn't already bad enough to be eventually fatal anyway.

Since kneeling on the upper back and neck are now standard procedures, I doubt that anyone is going to actually point to that as the moment when the real damage was done. A rough ride is dangerous as hell, but if one already has seriously damaged vertebrae in the neck, then such a ride is likely to be fatal.

At the very least they had a responsibility to strap him in, even if he hadn't already sustained damage to his neck.

Since there were so many cops involved, it is hard to pin the responsibility on any one of them, but they all should be sanctioned for not strapping him in, because that is what they are required to do, and once they have someone in custody, they are responsible for keeping him safe.

King is right. This is BS.

[Press Virginia]

39. There was no evidence of a rough ride. And the van driver faced the most serious charges

and was acquitted.

[billhicks76]

50. Going Way Out Of Your Way

To find all these cops innocent of killing this man. Do you normally sympathize so heavily with the side that kills someone? It's asinine you implied he killed himself. The internet sucks sometimes. Stop posting misinformation too.

[Press Virginia]

53. The guy who drove the van was just acquiited.

there was no evidence of a "rough ride" negligence, manslaughter, reckless behavior or murder.

[Akicita]

70. Press Virginia didn't find them innocent. The judge did. I suppose the AA judge must be an uncle Tom

In your eyes.

[In_The_Wind]

63. Excellent summation of the facts.

[Akicita]

72. Except the strapping in policy was brand new and the evidence showed that these cops had not yet

Been informed of the new policy.

[In_The_Wind]

74. He should have been transported in am ambulance.

[Akicita]

79. Maybe so.

[billhicks76]

51. You Were Here First

And your comments lack any basis in truth. Freddie Gray dos not kill himself. Someone killed him. You can state whatever you want but your statements have been fact checked and are false.

[Press Virginia]

52. The guy who drove the van, when the injuries occurred, was just acquiited

that's a fact you can neither dispute nor even argue without making something up.

[billhicks76]

97. So What

Lots of murderers are acquited. Rapists too.

[TipTok]

192. So what exactly are you advocating for?

Setting aside rule of law and a preponderance of proof in favor of appeasing the mob?

Either they have the evidence or they don't and in this case, they obviously don't.

This whole mess is of Mosby's making with political grandstanding, poor investigation procedures (12 days) to charges and an overall lack of professionalism.

[billhicks76]

200. You Can Excuse Anything

Most people have lost faith in our justice system for a reason.

[TipTok]

201. It's easy to whine about a problem...

I'm asking what your proposed solution is.

In this specific case, the evidence wasn't there. Are you suggesting that we lower the bar of reasonable doubt? Would that apply to everyone or just folks who 'deserve' it?

[billhicks76]

202. Whine?

What if that was your kid killed in that car? You gotta be kidding. Your problem is your predetermined belief system.

[TipTok]

203. Either way...

If it were my son who had been killed, I would still expect the legal system to require a standard of proof before convicting someone of a crime.

I took your post to mean that you were unsatisfied with that standard and I was curious as to what your solution or alternative would be.

Easy peasy...

[billhicks76]

204. The Straw That Broke The Camels Back

It's coming soon. It could've been today. If you can't see it I suggest you start looking elsewhere.

[TipTok]

205. So...

Nothing to add beyond vague refences to the pending revolution of some sort?

Guess we are back where we started. Complaints but no solutions you are willing to air publicly.

[billhicks76]

206. 2 More Black Men Murdered By Cops

Do you read the news or just do PR?

[TipTok]

207. Not my branch (career field)

I just have a passing interest in the judicial system and I occasionally inquire when I see inconsistent or half formed thoughts.

Sometimes a person comes to a new conclusion, takes the idea to the next level or I learn something new. Usually a combination of the three.

Of course, some folks get itchy when asked to take their thoughts to a logical conclusion and default to diversions and insults. They just need an emotional vent for things they feel strongly about and the actual analysis is a step too far.

Maybe next time...

Cheers...

[billhicks76]

208. I'm Friends With Many Cops

They protect me from some real vermin where I work. But I've also seen as a kid many innocent people have their heads caved in by them and never one time held accountable.

[TipTok]

209. I'm a glutton for punishment so I'll ask again....

Which standards of proof do you want to reduce in order to get that accountability?

[etherealtruth]

128. I think the poster simply believes Stephen King's statement to be true

Gee, looks like NOBODY killed Freddie Gray. Guess he just died of being black. Funny how that happens in this country.

[Scruffy Rumbler]

55. Why are you even at this site?

[Press Virginia]

56. Why do you hate facts?

[Press Virginia]

58. People who don't care about drug dealers or people who point out

the evidence to convict the first 3 officers hasn't resulted in a conviction

[rockfordfile]

182. Is Freddie Gray dead?

When was the last time he was alive?

[Press Virginia]

183. not evidence of a crime

[YoungDemCA]

93. That poster often takes the contrarian right-wing view in threads here

For example, I recently posted a thread about gun control in GD (in the wake of the Orlando massacre, of course). That poster repeated damn near every right-wing talking point about guns in my thread.

The moral of the story?

Don't feed the trolls.

[Press Virginia]

94. Id love to see one of them

[YoungDemCA]

95. Here ya go

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027921057#post20

[Press Virginia]

96. It's RW view to point out stripping people of their rights is wrong?

people wanted to bypass the 5th amendment and use a secret list to deny gun purchases

[rockfordfile]

181. you can tell

[Scruffy Rumbler]

59. http://www.democraticunderground.com/10141500785

[Logical]

65. Wow, are you gullible IMO! nt

[Press Virginia]

69. Denial of reality won't make things the way you wish they were

[Logical]

71. Your lack of knowledge how the judges protect cops is amusing. Nt

[Press Virginia]

82. not even the prosecutors are making that claim. The judge is a former civil rights attorney

And no one is accusing him of bias in favor of the cops except people who didn't sit through the trial and had predetermine the guilt of the cops

[Logical]

83. Lol, so now you think prosecutors want cops convicted??? LOLOLOLOL

[Press Virginia]

84. now Mosby is in on it?

[Logical]

87. Convicted cops piss off cops and prosecutors need cops to convict....

Criminals, wow, you must be either a cop or prosecutors.

[Press Virginia]

88. Hahahaha! So Mosby, who basically staked her career to this case, wants the cops to get off

[Akicita]

130. Totally agree. I always suspected Mosby was a double agent. No justice, no peace indeed.

It is now becoming obvious that Mosby was in on the murder from the beginning. In fact she probably planned it.

[rockfordfile]

184. I agree that some prosecutors are like that.

But I doubt this one. I just think the Judge should have gave some courage in 2016.

[TipTok]

194. Really? This guy?

With 8 years of successful prosecutions against police in the civil rights division of the Justice Department?

An African American to boot?

[SoLeftIAmRight]

75. sad

...

[Logical]

89. So, explain his death to us! I can't wait! Nt

[Press Virginia]

90. The ME couldn't explain it. He likely did it himself

[uponit7771]

105. The ME claimed he stood up without proof

[Press Virginia]

109. The ME based her "homicide" ruling on gray being given a "rough ride"

there was no evidence that happened.

When she was asked about prior neck/spine injuries, she said if it was in the same area as the fatal injury she couldn't tell because of the work done by the ER. She said it was possible there was a prior injury and it had been discussed.

[billhicks76]

140. Like The Cop Who Crushed Freddie's Neck With His Knee?

I'm sure that won't matter to you. Finding the police innocent in this death is very important to you. What if it was your family this happened too? Would you then be as dismissive? It's not an emotional judgement either on the cops. This kid is dead. It's obvious he was killed.

[Press Virginia]

141. The Medical Examiner testified that his injury occurred in the van not during the arrest

The driver, who faced the most serious charges, was acquitted.

These are facts.

[billhicks76]

151. You Sure Know A Lot About This Case

Are you a member of law enforcement? I know some good cops where I live. But it seems like there should've been a jury on this case. He was killed plain and simple. Certain people will not convict certain other people of a crime no matter how guilty they are. Maryland is a serious place. Kids get time for relatively small amounts of drugs.

[Press Virginia]

152. Everything I've cited was reported in the Baltimore Sun, including

Portions of testimony from the ME.
The defendant chose a bench trial which is his right. The Judge is a former federal civil rights attorney, whose conduct has not been questioned by the prosecution or legal commentators(as far as I've seen)

[That Guy 888]

114. Prosecutors are afraid of endagering their relationship with the police.

It's why they flub cases against police, allowing only majority pro-cop jurors, not presenting all evidence, etc.

[Press Virginia]

115. Mosby is having her people throw the cases?

do you have any evidence of this?

[That Guy 888]

116. The results speak for themselves.

Prosecutors have a close relationship with police. Do you have evidence that Mosby has a completely neutral relationship with the police? Do you have evidence that the prosecution did their best?

[Press Virginia]

117. The results aren't evidence of prosecutors throwing the case

Mosby has tied her political future to these prosecutions. She's not going to have people throw the cases so she looks like a failure as a DA.
And her statements regarding the charges filed as well as the charges filed don't show a bias favoring the department.

[That Guy 888]

120. There was evidence of sabotage. Maybe one of her prosecutors wants her job.

Or maybe they were intimidated by the harassment from the police:

Freddie Gray arrest documents drawn up for wrong people

When charges were announced Friday against Alicia White for the death of Freddie Gray, her phone started buzzing from journalists and bail bondsmen.

The problem was, they were calling the wrong Alicia White. The elementary school cafeteria manager from East Baltimore was not the Baltimore Police sergeant charged with manslaughter in the high-profile police custody death - even though court records listed her.

<snip>

On Friday evening, Tammy and Brian Rice of Brunswick, Md. said they were receiving multiple calls from reporters looking for the lieutenant. Brian Rice of Brunswick is a plumber, they said.

The Baltimore Sheriff's Office, which assisted the Baltimore State's Attorney's Office in charging the officers, declined to comment and referred questions to prosecutors, who could not immediately be reached.

A high profile case and they screw up the arrest warrants? I'm sure that that was an accident. The bottom line is that the police were responsible for Mr. Gray's well-being and he is dead.

[Press Virginia]

121. A clerical error isn't sabotage

[That Guy 888]

122. Lol

[That Guy 888]

170. Considering how important the case was locally and nationally...

it seems like they should have checked multiple times that they didn't screw up before issuing the warrants.

[Akicita]

167. Right. The authorities could never make a mistake in a case unless it was on purpose to throw the

case. They are just too efficient. Just like O.J. The prosecutors purposely shrunk the glove so it wouldn't fit.

Boy you are fun.

[That Guy 888]

188. Considering how important the case was locally and nationally...

it seems like they should have checked multiple times that they didn't screw up before issuing the warrants.

Just like O.J. The prosecutors purposely shrunk the glove so it wouldn't fit.

Overconfident prosecutors lost that case, and as more than one lawyer said, handing that glove to O.J. Simpson was stupid. Nobody needed to shrink anything, all he had to do was not let the glove fit his hand.

Boy you are fun.

Wish I could return that. It is sad to see such devotion to thugs that wear badges.

[Akicita]

198. Agree with your first two points. I'm not devoted to any thugs. I just think only the guilty should

be punished for a crime.

[Akicita]

132. Right on. It's now obvious that Mosby was in on it from the beginning. She probably planned

the murder. Evidence? Our conjecture is much more accurate than any evidence because it fits our agenda better.

[That Guy 888]

164. It's always disapointing to see slavish devotion to murderers that wear uniforms.

The police were responsible for the well being of people in their custody. In this case a person no longer capable of walking.

Evidence? Our conjecture is much more accurate than any evidence because it fits our agenda better.

It was a pretty cut and dry case, Mr. Gray could run before your heroes got a hold of him. Now he is dead. The prosecution was unable to secure a conviction.

Imagine that me and five friends chase a guy down, because he ran when we made eye contact. When we throw him into a van, he no longer is capable of walking on his own. After seven days he dies of injuries sustained while under direct control of me and my friends. Would we walk without badges?

There are many ways to throw a case, overprosectution, jury selection, not changing venue of judge known to favor police over citizens. BTW what is your "agenda"? It obviously isn't justice.

[Akicita]

165. No slavish devotion to murderous cops here. They can burn in Hell.

They should be guilty first though. Something happened to Gray. That's obvious. The Medical Examiner testified that the fatal injury occurred between the second and fourth stop. There was no witness or video evidence presented of a "rough ride". Do you favor a justice system where we convict on the conjecture of the lynch mob?

There are many ways to throw a case as you say. Which of the ways you listed do you have one iota of evidence occurred? It certainly appears that overprosecutoon occurred, but are you sure it was done to throw the case? If so then No Justice No peace Mosby was in on it like I posted.

I am in favor of a Loretta Lynch Justice Department investigation in this case to make sure there were no untoward actions taken by any of the authorities. If there was the JD should bring the hammer down. I think any suspicious deaths at the hands of the cops should be investigated by the Justice Department. There are too many bad cops out there not to and too many coverups.

My agenda is justice. Just not your lynch mob justice. We had enough of that back in Jim Crow.

[That Guy 888]

169. The cops are victims of lynch mob justice????

Yes they are all poor victims.

[Akicita]

176. Sometimes. Many people get so invested in a guilty verdict based on bad initial information that

Last edited Fri Jul 1, 2016, 12:23 PM - Edit history (1)

was hyped by the media and the activists that they refuse to accept the truth if the investigation or court proceedings clear the accused cops. Those with a lynch mob mentality insist that the cops are still guilty and start coming up with all sorts of conspiracy theories with not one iota of evidence.

Take Michael Brown for instance. Many people initially bought in to the hands up don't shoot fallacy and that Brown was shot in the back. The Obama Justice Department conducted an intensive investigation that found that the cop did not act improperly and that
hands up don't shoot never happened nor was Brown shot in the back.

Many of those with a lynch mob mentality refuse to accept the JD investigation results and still refer to Brown's death as a murder.

I think every questionable death by cop should be investigated by the JD and we should accept the results. I believe we can trust Loretta Lynch to conduct thorough and honest investigations.

[That Guy 888]

185. (warning graphic) The correct answer is: "No the police are not victims of lynch mob justice"

Victims of lynch mob justice:

Thomas Shipp and Abram Smith, lynched in Marion, Indiana on August 7, 1930


Will Brown The Omaha Courthouse Lynching of 1919


1877, Francisco Arias and José Chamales were lynched in Santa Cruz, California. Their killers were never named in court, and it was speculated that members of the jury had been in the lynch mob.


Victims of the 1920 lynching in Santa Rosa, CA. Charles Valento is on the far right, stripped of his clothing.

The pictures and identifying texts above are actual results of "lynch mob justice". In many cases of police violence the police appear to be the perpetrators of "lynch mob justice", not it's victims. Calling "bullshit" on the fact that the police often face no consequences for their actions is not "lynch mob justice".

[Akicita]

186. I am in total agreement that police often face no consequences for their actions. Where did I say

otherwise. Why don't you focus on those cases instead of on cases where the cops actions have been thoroughly and honestly investigated and their actions were found to be not criminal. I will ask you again. Do you really think Loretta Lynch is falsifying the investigations in these high profile cases where the cops are getting off?

In the Brown case for instance, if Loretta Lynch says the cop should not be charged shouldn't we accept that? Or should the lynch mob mentality prevail?(By lynch mob mentality I mean that the conjecture of the incited mob is deemed more accurate than the actual evidence and facts.)

[That Guy 888]

195. Name some cases where we are in agreement.

I read your posts talking about how the poor police are just as victimized as the men they killed.

[Akicita]

166. You're right. Every conviction ever made in the history of our country should be overturned unless

there is air tight evidence that the prosecutors had never had any dealings or met with any police officers or unless the defendant is a cop. In that case the cop should be automatically convicted if the prosecutors had ever met another cop. What a nut.

[That Guy 888]

172. "What a nut."

That is a violation of the post primary guidelines, as well as an admission that you have no logical arguments. Why are you so sensitive to the unwritten privileges of the law enforcement community?

Every conviction ever made in the history of our country should be overturned unless there is air tight evidence that the prosecutors had never had any dealings or met with any police officers or unless the defendant is a cop.

So much logical fallacy. Perhaps you haven't been paying attention to current events, but it's much more likely for a LEO to walk where a private citizen would not. In fact if I drove up into a park hopped out of my car and immediately shot a 12 year old, there's a chance I'd get killed before trail, if not, I'd likely get the maximum sentence. If I choked someone out while they gasped "I can't breath" and my assault and failure to render led to that person's death would I walk?

[TipTok]

193. She took a calculated risk...

... in the hopes of advancement and national media attention and it blew up in her face.

She has been outed as incomptent and unprofessional. Prosecutors have a history of playing nice with police but not at the expense of their own careers.

[NaturalHigh]

174. If nothing else, the prosecutor definitely overcharged in this case.

She was trying for a home run to further her political career. A lot of people here were singing her praises for it.

[Press Virginia]

178. A lot of people, here, don't care about actual evidence

[etherealtruth]

2. A sickeningly sad commentary on our society

[Press Virginia]

6. What's sad is celebrities whose opinions

Aren't based on evidence presented at the trial

[etherealtruth]

14. What is sad is people defending the cultural pheneomenon where ....

.... black people mysteriously die while in the custody of law enforcement.

What are your thoughts about this cultural phenomenon?

[Press Virginia]

17. He had a history of self injury in custody, but it's possible his injuries are

self inflicted.
So far the evidence of wrongdoing by the police isn't sufficient to get convictions.

[etherealtruth]

24. Surely you jest ....

.... or have no idea of what it takes to sever a spinal column and crush a larynx ....?

Yes, law enforcement was acquitted .... seems to me there is a history in the U.S. of the acquittal of those that murder black people (and those that shine a light on it)

Emmet Till, James Chaney .... evidence of wrongdoing wasn't "sufficient" to get convictions in thiose cases and thousands of others

[Press Virginia]

25. Unless you sat through the trial and heard the evidence

your opinion isn't based on the facts of the specific cases.

Police officers do get convicted when the evidence supports the charges

[etherealtruth]

29. Hahahaha .... and we have no problem with the abuse of AA members of our society ....

... at the hands of law enforcement. Law enforcement is convicted when they abuse or kill AAs in their custody .... right

I've decided you are posting in the form of a parody ....


You have declined to answer questions regarding your opinion on the systemic abuse of members of the AA community by law enforcement and by the complicity of our criminal justice system.

you have also declined to comment on the history in this country or murderers and abusers of the AA community being acquitted by juries .... certainly the settings and circumstances have changed but these atrocities reflect the times. I have no doubt that Emmett Tills murderers would now be convicted .... but Freddy Gray's, Eric Garner's, Michael Browns .... just a different setting, time and circumstance, but it goes on

[Press Virginia]

35. When the evidence supports the charges, officers are convicted

Is there abuse, sure. But evidence is still needed for a conviction

[etherealtruth]

43. i will ask one more time

what is your opinion related to the systemic abuse including death of members of the AA community at the hands of law enforcement. I am sure it has nothing to do with the lack of cooperation by the police

you have also declined to comment on the history in this country r/t murderers and abusers of the AA community being acquitted by juries (at the time many people declared there was an absence of evidence) .... certainly the settings and circumstances have changed but these atrocities reflect the times. I have no doubt that Emmett Tills murderers would now be convicted .... but Freddy Gray's, Eric Garner's, Michael Browns .... just a different setting, time and circumstance, but it goes on

[Press Virginia]

112. Systematic?

Is there evidence of systematic abuse in the Gray case? As for Brown, the FBI couldn't even substantiate a crime committed by the police officer.

Not all cases of death in custody are the same. Nor are they all criminal.
That's not to say there aren't departments or times when there is abuse, but it's localized rather than systematic. I'm also not speaking of the days of Jim Crow

[Akicita]

168. I think many people may be going back to the Jim Crow days where the conjecture of the lynch mob is

considered more accurate than any actual evidence or facts.

[Socal31]

73. BS.

In my county, a cop could murder someone in front of a jury and the DA and jury would pretend it was justified.

Brea PD killed an unarmed friend of mine in a wealthy neighborhood. Fullerton PD killed a homeless man on camera.

[Press Virginia]

78. Maybe in you world of make believe

[Socal31]

80. Which part is fantasy?

[Press Virginia]

85. All of it

[Socal31]

86. If that makes you feel better.

[Quayblue]

107. He was also lead-poisoned.

But I suspect you won't factor that into his mental illness.

[Akicita]

134. Yes, that is sad. What is also sad is the cultural phenomenon where when an unarmed black person is

killed while being taken into custody, the cops are convicted by the activists and by sensational stories in the press before an investigation is even completed and any evidence is presented. Guilt is automatically assumed because the victim is black and the accused is a cop.

This cultural phenomenon is eerily and sadly reminiscent of the lynch mobs of the 1930's and 40's where if a black person was accused of killing or raping a white person, they were convicted by the mob without any due process. If the victim was white and the accused was black then the accused was automatically guilty. No need for due process.

Nowadays, if the supposed victim is black and the accused is a cop, the accused is automatically guilty. No need for due process. Just like the lynch mobs of old. If the actual facts and evidence say otherwise, then the facts and evidence are wrong or the investigators, judges and prosecutors are corrupt. There is no other possibility because that would conflict with the ideology. Conjecture about the cop's guilt is considered much more accurate than the actual facts and evidence because it fits the agenda.

Once the lynch mob mentality takes hold, many people will never accept the actual facts and evidence if they exonerate the cop. In the Michael Brown case, the Obama Justice Dept., led by an AA Attorney General, did an extensive investigation that concluded no criminal wrongdoing occurred by the cop. They determined "Hands up. Don't shoot" never happened. But that didn't jive with the guilty verdict the lynch mob had already rendered. Many still to this day are convinced the cop murdered Michael Brown in cold blood. Those who don't want to accuse the Obama DOJ of corruption just ignore their report like it didn't exist because it doesn't fit the agenda.

I cannot fathom why so many people continue to insist on focusing on cases like the Michael Brown case and now this one as confirmed police murders of blacks when there are so many cases where the evidence actually points to police misconduct resulting in the death of unarmed blacks.

Take Laquan McDonald in Chicago. The actual facts and evidence point to an egregious murder by cop that was covered up by the police administration, DA's office, all the way up to the mayor's office for political purposes. Even though the coverup is obvious, not one single person has been criminally charged for it. The cop probably would have gotten away with the murder had not a journalist gone to court to force the public release of the videotape. Now that is a huge scandal.

Good people should be outraged by police misconduct towards African Americans. But not with a lynch mob mentality where guilt or innocence is determined with the first accusations, and subsequent investigations and court proceedings cannot change the verdict in the minds of the mob.

[etherealtruth]

135. Plesase cite where the police have been convicted by activists ...?

There seems to be the opposite of a cultural phenomena r/t to the police being convicted for their behavior/ crimes.


y'all have convinced me .... Freddy Gray and the others just dropped dead of natural causes or killed themselves
.... funny there must be a heritable gene that causes that


The mentality you outline is misplaced ... we have a major problem with law enforcement in this country.

[Akicita]

137. The burned and looted business of Ferguson and Baltimore provide ample evidence of a quick verdict

by the activists and their followers.

[etherealtruth]

138. ... and their actions caused convictions?

Their actions (born of extreme frustration and lack of recourse), brought national attention to the problem the country has with law enforcement. Your citation hardly identifies a case where a poor "innocent police officer " was convicted.

what actions do you deem appropriate by the oppressed victims of systemic abuse? Perhaps they could have written heir representatives and asked for the oppression and systemic abuse to stop..../

[Akicita]

139. No poor innocent police officer was convicted. But their lives were ruined. How do you think the

innocent store owners in Ferguson and Baltimore, most AA, feel when they realize they were looted because of hysteria over a fallacy.

I would deem appropriate action by the oppressed victims of systematic abuse not to include hurting others, especially innocent others. If some stranger killed a loved one of mine, is it appropriate that I burn down the house of my neighbor across the street in reaction? I think not.

Why do the oppressed burn and loot their own neighborhoods anyway? Why don't they burn and loot the neighborhoods where their oppressive abusers live? Burning and looting your own innocent neighbors just seems nonsensical to me.

Of course they shouldn't be burning and looting any innocent people or their property. Appropriate action would include peaceful demonstrations, boycotts, voter registration drives, etc. Holding politicians responsible. What Dr. King taught us to do. Most importantly pressure the Justice Depth. to investigate any suspicious deaths caused by the police.

How many looters in Ferguson do you think went back to their victims and apologized after it was revealed that the officer's actions were appropriate? Not many I'd bet.

What do you deem to be appropriate action? Are you going to volunteer to have your house looted by your neighbors if a cop kills someone in your neighborhood?

[etherealtruth]

142. I really am astounded that i am reading this here

I am hoping you are simply ignorant regarding the justice departments findings regarding the systemic abuses. I have not seen comments such as yours from anyone progressive/ liberal or compassionate before. everything associated with Ferguson was a tragedy ... the oly god thing to come from any of the tragic events has been the spotlight that illuminated the oppression and systemic abuse within the law enforcement and court system there. All the circumstances are tragic.

For your edification:

Seven months after a white Ferguson police officer shot and killed an unarmed 18-year-old, the Justice Department has issued a searing report into policing and court practices in the Missouri city. Investigators determined that in “nearly every aspect of Ferguson’s law enforcement system,” African Americans are impacted a severely disproportionate amount. The report included racist e-mails sent by police and municipal court supervisors, repeated examples of bias in law enforcement and a system that seemed built upon using arrest warrants to squeeze money out of residents.

Here are some key excerpts from the report:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2015/03/04/the-12-key-highlights-from-the-dojs-scathing-ferguson-report/?utm_term=.b52b76f04cf4

[Akicita]

144. So burning and looting your neighbors' homes and businesses because you are upset about something is

Compassionate?

I am well aware of the searing findings of the JD. Are you aware that they cleared the cop that killed Michael Brown of any wrongdoing?
Or is that something you just chose to ignore? Are you aware that JD investigators determined that "hands up, don't shoot" was a fallacy? Or is that something you choose to ignore as well?

I am glad that the JD investigated. We need a lot more of those types of investigations. I am glad they were able to uncover the systematic abuses that were going on and I hope all of that is being fixed.

You never answered my question of whether you will volunteer your house to be looted if the cops do something bad in your neighborhood. Or do you suffer from the same lack of compassion you accuse me of?

I feel compassion for all victims of crime and police abuse. I do not have compassion for truly abusive or murderous cops or for oppressed people who take out their frustrations by stealing or destroying their neighbors property.

[KMOD]

145. I have a question for you.

How and why do you think the Michael Brown tragedy escalated to the point where he wound up being killed?

[Akicita]

146. If I remember right, and my memory is a bit fuzzy, but the cop told Brown to get out of the middle

of the street. Brown refused and ended up attacking the cop in his patrol car. During that fight, they struggled for the cops gun, the gun went off, and Brown was hit in the arm or something. Brown took off and the cop pursued. Brown turned around and charged the cop. The cop shot until Brown was dead.

Why Brown decided to attack the cop in his patrol car is a mystery to me but was a major escalation. You just don't do that and expect to live. Another escalation point that directly led to his death is when he turned and decided to charge the cop as the Justice Department investigation found. Who knows why? But those would be the two points of escalation that led to his death. The Justice Department found that Brown was responsible for both escalations.

[KMOD]

147. Let's start with this

Why Brown decided to attack the cop in his patrol car is a mystery to me

Clearly, something happened to escalate it to that point.

And that is what needs to be examined, and what you seem to not factor in at all.

You need to understand that there was, and is, a very extreme distrust of the Ferguson Police Department by the African American community.

Ferguson’s law enforcement practices are shaped by the City’s focus on revenue rather than by public safety needs. This emphasis on revenue has compromised the institutional character of Ferguson’s police department, contributing to a pattern of unconstitutional policing, and has also shaped its municipal court, leading to procedures that raise due process concerns and inflict unnecessary harm on members of the Ferguson community. Further, Ferguson’s police and municipal court practices both reflect and exacerbate existing racial bias, including racial stereotypes. Ferguson’s own data establish clear racial disparities that adversely impact African Americans. The evidence shows that discriminatory intent is part of the reason for these disparities...

Partly as a consequence of City and FPD priorities, many officers appear to see some residents, especially those who live in Ferguson’s predominantly African-American neighborhoods, less as constituents to be protected than as potential offenders and sources of revenue...

http://apps.washingtonpost.com/g/documents/national/department-of-justice-report-on-the-ferguson-mo-police-department/1435/

Until we address the very real, and very unjust reasons that have led to the distrust that caused the tragic death of Michael Brown we won't get anywhere.

It's easy, as a white person, to just say, "well, Michael Brown should have just listened to the cop and all would have been well."

When you have members of the community who don't trust, and who actually fear the very people we hire to keep us safe, there's a huge problem. And there have been far too many reminders lately that their fear and distrust is not unreasonable, and is in fact just.

The burden is on the Police Department to correct it errs, not on the community members who rightfully do not trust them.



























Department of Justice report on the Ferguson, Mo. Police Department
















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[Akicita]

148. Perfectly understandable for Brown to distrust or fear the Ferguson cop.

Quite another thing to attack him in his patrol car and struggle for his gun. You just don't do that. Not if you want to live or avoid a long prison sentence. Why do you think he did it?

[KMOD]

149. That's my whole point.

We don't know what led up to the escalation.

And yet that is the biggest factor that needed to be determined.

A jaywalker, should not wind up dead.

Just like a guy selling a freaking cigarette, should not wind up dead.

A man with a bad brake light, should not wind up dead.

A young man who runs away from the cops, should not wind up dead.

And on, and on...

[Akicita]

150. Completely agree. My point is that in any of the examples you cite, if any of those guys attacked a

cop in his patrol car and struggled for his gun, he would stand a good chance of getting killed. You just don't do that. That's close to suicide by cop.

My second point is with all the cases of bad cops killing unarmed blacks, why do people continue to place the focus on cases where the cops have been exonerated. Do you really think Loretta Lynch faked the results of her investigation? It makes no sense. People get so invested in a guilty verdict based on bad initial information like hands up don't shoot or that Brown was shot in the back that they cannot accept the truth when it is revealed.

My third point is because people are outraged due to a killing by cop, it does not give them the right to loot, steal, or destroy their neighbors homes or businesses.

[TipTok]

196. The jaywalking may have been the initil reason for the interaction...

... but was not the reason that he died.

[KMOD]

199. My point is,

a jaywalking incident never should have escalated to that. Something went quite wrong there.

[etherealtruth]

154. Not at all reluctant to answer your question ....

...by my actions (civic engagement, financial commitments to civil rights organizations) I am actively NOT volunteering my home or business to be destroyed in civil unrest. Those that perpetuate an unjust, abusive, racist, oppressive law enforcement judicial system are in fact volunteering my home, business and community for civil unrest and potential harm. So, no I am not volunteering my property or anyone else's. Those perpetuation injustice are.

Your use of the term exoneration as it relates to Daren Wilson is quite interesting. In effect, the bar for what police officers can say is a "reasonable" fear is set so amazingly low, that if officers completely imagine they see a gun, hear it go off three times, and even see the flash from the muzzle, as they claimed in the case of completely unarmed teenager Kendrec McDade, the police are still protected by Graham v. Connor.http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/10/19/1336797/-Is-it-legal-for-the-police-to-shoot-an-unarmed-surrendered-citizen

We cannot sit back surprised and astounded when entire communities have been victimized and express their rage and frustration. the investigations in Ferguson were only initiated in earnest following the civil unrest. Had that not occurred, the abuses would have continued.

[Akicita]

157. We have a great need to clean up the police departments in this country. Requiring they wear body

cams is a big step forward. Much more needs to be done. Police truly need to protect and serve their community, not harass and intimidate it.

I am all for protest. Peaceful protest. If rage and frustration boils over into violence why attack your neighbors? Why steal and destroy the property of your neighbors? They aren't the ones oppressing you. Why not loot and destroy the mayor's house or office, city offices, the police chiefs home, or the public library? Why not loot the neighborhoods where the city council live?

It is nonsensical to me to take out rage and frustration on your own innocent neighbors.

[etherealtruth]

158. I don't encourage or support it .... but .....

I do understand how it happens.

In truth the likelihood the systemic injustice would have never come to light without the civil uprising

[Akicita]

160. You might be right. I just don't understand and oppose victimizing your own neighbors to get

your message out. Why do they do that? Why not loot their oppressors?

[etherealtruth]

161. it is disconcerting .. however, I think there is much more risk ....

... and higher penalties for that.

I live in Suburban Metro Detroit ... when a Detroit team wins a pennant, super bowl (fat chance), Stanley Cup ... etc suburbanites tend to have celebratory "riots" in the city .... that is what I can't wrap my mind around. celebratory destruction of property

[Akicita]

162. I don't understand that either. I guess it's because they can.

I wouldn't mind a law where if a person is caught destroying someone else property, their own property would be destroyed in a public ceremony. The destruction would be non-insurable. That might help nip the problem in the bud.

[Akicita]

133. That's BullSh*t. If Lindsey Lohan says this cop is guilty than I believe her.

[lapucelle]

5. I think the main problem is with the prosecution.

I've been following the trials on the Baltimore Sun website which has extensive coverage, and it seems to me that the prosecution genuinely isn't meeting its burden of proof. Because they keep shifting their theories of the case, it's almost as if they themselves are creating reasonable doubt for any single theory.

[Press Virginia]

10. A lot of the charges didn't make sense

charging the same person with murder, manslaughter and negligent homicide.

An intentional act a reckless act and an act of negligence? Talk about a scatter gun approach

[lapucelle]

15. That's a pretty common prosecutorial strategy.

[Press Virginia]

20. Not according to a lot of lawyers. Mosby overcharged, charges contradicted each other

And thus far the evidence doesn't support any of the charges

[Rex]

8. Yep.

Killed while riding in the back of the paddy wagon...er...nope, nothing happened he just died in the back from natural causes. You know...people always fall into comas in the back of the paddy wagon. Yep.

[NutmegYankee]

13. Authoritarians will never convict a police officer.

They are next to God in their sad view of the world and can do no wrong. Given that just over 1/3 of the population now has authoritarian views, it's difficult to get a jury or judge to convict, as seen in statistics from the last 10 years.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/investigative/2015/04/11/thousands-dead-few-prosecuted/

[lapucelle]

19. I think this judge is different

As an attorney he served as a special prosecutor in the Justice Department's Civil Rights Division.

[NutmegYankee]

23. The problem is a judge still tends to defer to law enforcement.

The decision to avoid a jury was key, as the judges don't want to lock up those they serve with. It's hard enough to get prosecutors to take action.

[lapucelle]

33. I think that in a high profile case like this

judges are very careful not to commit any reversible errors. They don't want to embarrass themselves or damage their own reputation as jurists.

[saidsimplesimon]

34. I agree Nutmeg, thank you.

[former9thward]

41. The first case was a jury trial.

No verdict reached.

[NutmegYankee]

44. That goes back to my first point.

If 35% of the population defers to police, it's easy to get at least one on a jury.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

48. Reports say it wasn't one juror

It was more than one.

[Duppers]

118. Nailed it.

[saidsimplesimon]

40. K&R Godhumor

By choice, I do not have, nor do I want a facebook or twitter account.

No Justice, No Peace

[Spitfire of ATJ]

47. Bernie is right that the whole system needs to be reexamined.

[spanone]

49. K&R...

[In_The_Wind]

62. The jury got it wrong again.

[Nye Bevan]

64. Ummmm...... you haven't been following this case very closely, have you?

In_The_Wind
62. The jury got it wrong again.

[In_The_Wind]

66. Guess not because it upsets me.

[jack_krass]

81. Yeah screw facts and information, let's just get some cops

(Most of who are black)Into prison.

[KMOD]

143. The biggest fact is that a young man is dead,

and there is no justifiable reason for it.

[philosslayer]

67. What jury?

N/t

[In_The_Wind]

136. When I saw on the news the accused were acquitted I thought there had been a jury trial.

My mistake.

However IMO There has been no justice for the way Freddie Gray's life was stolen from him.

[Feeling the Bern]

68. Damn, when I get to my production company's office in LA, this is a man I want to spend time

with if he has it.

Love his books, love his politics.

[NobodyHere]

76. Well an author had his say

Let's skip due process

[Duppers]

119. ?

That's exactly what Stephen King said happened. The process was not fair or just.

[Press Virginia]

153. Based on what? His extensive time in the court room listening to the evidence?

The medical examiner based her ruling of homicide on the assumption that Gray was injured during a "rough ride". There was no evidence presented to support that assumption.
she testified the injury occurred inside the van, according to her it happened between the 2nd and 4th stop.
She couldn't say, for certain, that gray had no prior neck injuries from before his arrest because of the work done by the hospital's shock trauma team. She only could say there were no prior injuries to the spine below the neck.

IOWs the prosecution can't determine how he was injured

[Akicita]

163. I respect Stephen King, but I am waiting for Lindsey Lohan's opinion to make up my mind.

[pinboy3niner]

171. Cute

King has been politically aware and involved for a long time. I hardly think your Lindsey is on a par.

[Akicita]

177. This isn't a political case. It is a criminal case. Lindsey has much more real life experience

With criminal cases than King could ever dream of.

[NaturalHigh]

173. I like Stephen King, but I don't look to him for social commentary.