Did Bill Clinton use bad judgement?

[kentuck]

http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/30/opinions/bill-clinton-loretta-lynch-meeting-opinion-callan/

<snip>
(CNN)The Arizona tarmac meeting between former President Bill Clinton and U.S. Attorney General Loretta Lynch will certainly raise the eyebrows of more than a few law enforcement professionals and voters throughout the United States.
The reason: the AG is the Cabinet officer who is nominally in charge of the FBI's "email server" investigation which in part focuses upon the conduct of former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton.

Since the email server was located in the Clinton's private residence in Chappaqua, N.Y., most members of the public would reasonably assume that Mr. Clinton himself would have more than a passing knowledge regarding the use and maintenance of the server. He would also be intensely interested in keeping his candidate wife clear of any allegations of criminal wrong during her presidential campaign.
Under the circumstances, the tarmac soiree between Clinton and Lynch demonstrates incredibly bad judgment on the part of two seasoned legal and political professionals.

....more

[joshcryer]

1. Bill Clinton knew exactly what he was doing.

Comey getting to decide the outcome is exactly the same as Gowdy getting to decide the outcome. Republicans exonerating the Democratic nominee. Not some Obama appointee. Bush's people.

[morningfog]

4. Bill didn't need to barge in on the AG for that to happen.

[Duckhunter935]

2. Yes he did

And so did the attorney general

[morningfog]

3. The AG did nothing wrong. She had no idea until she saw him step on.

[Duckhunter935]

9. Maybe not but she should have

Kicked him off as it was improper.

[morningfog]

11. Who knows what happened. She may have tried, she may have cut off hi

conversation. Who knows. It was only them and her husband.

[Duckhunter935]

15. Even she did not say that

Nice try

[morningfog]

20. No, if you read her statement understanding she is a career attorney,

she left wiggle room.


"Our conversation was a great deal about grandchildren, it was primarily social about our travels and he mentioned golf he played in Phoenix. There was no discussion on any matter pending before the Department or any matter pending with any other body, there was no discussion of Benghazi, no discussion of State Department emails, by way of example I would say it was current news of the day, the Brexit decision and what it would mean."

She said it was "primarily" social and no "discussion" of any pending matter. That leaves plenty of room for Bill attempting to discuss something and her changing the subject. It did last 30 minutes and she did say they discussed other things, so I take your point that she probably did not try to get him off the plane.

[Duckhunter935]

22. She did say they discussed other things

[B2G]

36. Wonder what course he played?

It was awfully hot that day, if I recall. And he's not in the best health.

[morningfog]

37. He didn't have any campaign events on the calendar for that day.

Who knows?

[B2G]

50. He attended “Latino Leaders Roundtable" on Monday

Folks in attendance posted Twitter pics of him at the event.

Which left time for golf?

Sorry, I don't trust the guy.

[JudyM]

75. It was a 30 minute private meeting. You think she tried to kick him off the plane?

How were his objections persuasive to her? "Come on, we really have to talk about golf"

[monmouth4]

5. I find it insulting to my intelligence that either Clinton or Lynch would come up with such a stupid

description of their conversations. What they said they did not discuss is ridiculous and insulting to all of us..

[yodermon]

7. I know. What an awkward place for such a ho-hum social visit. At taxpayer expense. n/t

[OnDoutside]

14. No, what an awkard place to discuss the Emails investigation. There are plenty of easier places and

occasions with which to have Clinton-Lynch dialogue.

[DonViejo]

29. And you know emails were discussed how?

[OnDoutside]

93. RTFP ! I'm saying IF they were going to talk about the email case, there are a lot of easier places

that they could have picked than on airport tarmac all the way down in Arizona !

[DonViejo]

98. Ah okay; thanks for the clarification and apologies

for misunderstanding.

[OnDoutside]

102. No problem.

[BlueCaliDem]

59. Wow. Jumping the gun there, OnDoutside? You're assuming way too much.

This is how I know propaganda works so easily on Americans, and why Hillary Clinton has been hurt by 30 years and tens of millions of dollars of Republican propaganda.

[JudyM]

77. Seriously? It was 30 minutes. Lynch is the only person who could hand his wife the

Presidency, not to mention relieve both of them of years of legal wrangling. I'm so sure he was interested in only talking about golf. Jeez.

[BlueCaliDem]

80. That poster believes the server/e-mail witch hunt was discussed. Ergo, he believes the Republican

lie that Hillary Clinton is crooked and can't be trusted by falling for those well-funded lies.

So yeah. I'm for real. Are you?

[JudyM]

82. So you actually think it is more likely that nothing was mentioned about the FBI cases?

This is not about Hillary. This is about whether Bill would attempt to influence the outcome of the most important political decision determinative of his and his wife's future and legacy.

And we have seen full well that he does not follow proscriptions.

[BlueCaliDem]

84. I actually believe that, yes, until evidence surfaces to prove otherwise. I guess I subscribe to the

"innocent until proven guilty" concept and brush off CTs and conjecture about the Clintons that only Republicans appear to benefit by.

And if you don't think this has everything to do with Hillary Clinton, I've got a bridge to sell you in Gravina, Alaska.

[JudyM]

87. It is about Hillary at some level but the ethical lapse was Bill's fault and Lynch's responsibility

to avoid.

And FWIW, even if you yourself "buy the bridge" that the case was not discussed, a 30 minute convo about other social niceties is still viewed as an improper attempt to influence, because he is one of the most powerful men in the world, don't you see how that works?

There is a legal ethical standard for a reason. Even if you believe nothing wrong "happened" it was still a serious legal ethics lapse on Lynch's part... This is not a witch hunt standard, there are established boundaries in our legal system to prevent influence in decisionmaking. These exist outside of these particular circumstances and there has been a breach.

Even if nothing was discussed, the established standard is that a decision maker must "avoid even the appearance of impropriety." This is taught to every law student and is part of her role requirement. So it's not just about whether anything actually happened or not. Maybe you are not looking at that. Ask any lawyer who is neutral on the matter, you will get the same answer. This is a bright line violation.

Maybe it would be easier to see if tRump had a case she was going to decide whether to prosecute and he jumped aboard her plane...?

[BlueCaliDem]

96. This is ALL about Hillary, and no matter how you choose to twist it, fact remains that *she* will

get attacked for this from both the Right and the Left - and she did nothing wrong or differently than her predecessors (think personal server/e-mails vs Colin Powell's use of g-mail). You know that.

Now maybe some angry Sanders followers would love to see this balloon then explode into a full scandal that would maybe, just maybe, force Hillary Clinton to give up the Democratic Party nom so that Sanders could step in, but other than that, Liberals who subscribe to the notion that you're "innocent until proven guilty" shouldn't jump the shark until such time evidence is produced that Bill Clinton had, indeed, tried to influence the AG.

the established standard is that a decision maker must "avoid even the appearance of impropriety."

This is such a load of crock. When the highest most powerful justices on our highest most powerful Court openly and freely rub elbows and attend getaways with defendants and/or plaintiffs in cases before them, that "established standard" went extinct. Again, another case where there is a double-standard when it comes to prejudging the Clintons. I'm so sick of it.

[JudyM]

99. No, actually the point is that there should not be a double standard, and that is exactly what

your argument mandates, whether you realize/acknowledge it or not.

I was one of those who outright celebrated when Scalia died. Went out and had a drink with a lawyer friend and was openly delighted here on DU. Not just because it was the death of a staunch rethug Supreme, but expressly because of his open violation of legal ethics, and the great harm that that did this country, e.g., installing Shrub and generally lowering the bar on public accountability.

The fact that you think that "everyone's doing it" is the basis for an ethical standard is actually alarmingly disturbing, if you can see that... and it is precisely what Sanders' supporters find so abhorrent in our existing political system.

You are entitled to your views, of course, but they are symptomatic of a deep problem in our democracy, problematic to those who believe so many of the country's problems are due to inappropriate discounting of ethics, to their personal financial advantage. Congress crafts policies to protect its donors. NRA. Big Oil. Wall St. Etc.

Psychologically, "everone's doing it, so can we" is a phenomenon called "social proof" and has been demonstrated to cause a great many problems including widespread ethical lapses, such as those that caused the '08 crash. The evolutionary biology and neuroscience behind this is fascinating, in fact. I highly recommend this book if you have any interest in the back end of how we *really* make decisions: http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/10865206-the-willpower-instinct

[Yo_Mama]

86. In fairness, Hillary Clinton's integrity is not in question over this incident.

She was not involved. Don't even imply this as a possible construction.

[BlueCaliDem]

88. Oh. but it is. The implication is there since this is about her emails/server. So to say this won't

create a implication that it's about her integrity is whistling past the graveyard. Stay tuned.

[Yo_Mama]

91. Yes, but this incident is about a highly improper meeting - NOT any misconduct.

Okay, I am sure her enemies will try to use this against her to try to say "heheheheh if there is nothing wrong why did this happen?"

But she was not in this meeting.

[BlueCaliDem]

92. We both know that, Yo_Mama, but we also both know the penchant of her enemies to create non-scandals

out of thin air, spin and twist, and then attack her for it (with plenty of help from M$M), deepening the distrust that they've paid tens of millions of dollars over 30 years to cultivate around the Clintons and what has successfully taken hold in the consciousness/subconsciousness of too many Americans.

[OnDoutside]

95. RTFP ! I'm saying IF they were going to talk about the email case, there are a lot of easier places

they could have done so, than on an airport tarmac in Phoenix.

[BlueCaliDem]

97. Perhaps you need to reread your own post. You said nothing about "going to talk about". You clearly

stated: "No, what an awkard place to discuss the Emails investigation" as if a discussion of the e-mail investigation was an established fact. And FYI? I'm not the only one who read it the way I had, as you can see.

[OnDoutside]

104. No, it's your inference. I was replying to yodermon who said

"What an awkward place for such a ho-hum social visit."

to which I replied

"No, what an awkard place to discuss the Emails investigation. There are plenty of easier places and occasions with which to have Clinton-Lynch dialogue."

It's pretty self explanatory.

[JudyM]

78. And suppose, perhaps, she has been, appropriately, avoiding his calls?

[Duckhunter935]

10. Indeed so

[840high]

100. ...!100++++

[HereSince1628]

6. Bill? No. He's got nothing to lose in that.

Lynch on the otherhand, opened the door for people to speculate about how the US system with it's multi-level justice system works for the privileged.

The fundamental truth of human nature is friends and allies treat their friends and allies better than they treat strangers. That's also true of what can most euphemistically be called 'professional courtesy' of the justice system.

[irisblue]

8. it was a poor choice on Pres Clintons' part.

What happened to his political judgement? Poor choice on his part.

[Duckhunter935]

12. He has been privileged

For so long, he does not care.

[fasttense]

61. Loud plane engines and the uber rich bubble.

Loud plane engines prevent people from capturing decent sounds. And the uber rich stop seeing servants, drivers, pilots, air traffic controlers, stewards, security and baggage handlers as people. They see them as extensions of themselves. Now would you rat out yourself?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

13. no, but they underestimated a news hungry media and a dumb populace. nt

[DocJ]

16. In one simple answer "no".

Republican's will pounce on anything and everything they can. That's all they have. Hell, I lived in Texas and it's always been the party of personal destruction, any way they can and they don't care how low they go. When we buy into to it, we are doing exactly what they want. Why do you think we've had nothing but investigation after investigation after investigation since Clinton was elected. They have made a cottage industry out of it and made a lot of people wealthy. Be careful what you believe. Karl should start sending out "Thank You" cards.

[demmiblue]

17. Both of them should have known better. n/t

[jehop61]

18. Every day

there have been detailed stories in the press about Trumps past business practices and general lifestyle. All are generally very bad. So now, Bill Clinton meets publically, in sight of reporters, with the Attorney General whom he's known for over 20 years. And that's a scandal?
This poster is just Hillary bashing. Thought that went out here a few weeks ago.

[morningfog]

21. It was not in sight of reporters or publicly.

[jehop61]

28. So

how do we know it happened, and how was a picture snapped of the two planes. And the plane staff was aboard as well. If they wanted to "deal", they both are smarter than to be in sight of multiple persons. Thought DU was to support the Democratic candidate, not to tear her down.

[morningfog]

31. I don't think they wanted to "deal." Certainly Lynch did not.

The meeting was no in public or in front of anyone.

As for your last sentence, discussing the facts of a news worthy event is not tearing anyone down. Save it.

[liberalla]

19. yes, and now lynch is set to announce that she'll accept whatever the FBI recommends

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12512229651

[humbled_opinion]

23. As it should be....

Whatever the FBI recommends should happen....

[gordianot]

27. Law of unintended consequences.

[GeorgeGist]

52. Why ...

have an AG that's a rubber stamp?

[gordianot]

24. When handling poisonous snakes expect to get bit.

Cucumbers always make me belch and leopards of all color variations have spots.

[stonecutter357]

25. seems legit !

[Laser102]

26. OMG!!! They are friends. Bill is friends with everyone. Lynch is a professional. There is no way,

even if Bill brought it up, she would discuss the investigation. They talked golf and grandkids. Big whoop.

[yeoman6987]

35. Then why is she giving in

She wouldn't if she was clean. No one would.

[raindaddy]

41. I can see how the importance of Bill Clinton's golf game and grandkids outweighs the impropriety

of having a private meeting with the Attorney General while his wife is under investigation by the FBI...

[Betty Karlson]

30. yes. eom

[dembotoz]

32. pretty damn stupid....BOTH should have known better

they are not rookies
they know how the game is played

and yet..... how stupid

[Cosmocat]

40. YEP

WTF, Bill? Seriously.

And, she was a bit of a tough spot assuming he just showed up, but still should have said, Bill, we can catch up some other time, this isn't a good idea at this point, and ended it.

[Motley13]

33. What evil plot can be hatched in 30 min?

Bill is everyone's BFF, so of course he is going to show off pictures of the grandkids. Actually 30 min is a very short time for Bill to talk about anything, so I'm sure Loretta told him it
didn't look good. 30 min, get real.

[BlueMTexpat]

34. No.

But nice try. :

[lonestarnot]

38. Gawd I am sick of smelling bullshit!

[Darb]

39. No.

I am certain the Teabaggers and their Repiglicker enablers got their panties in a wad. Thinking people dismiss it, as it deserves.

[Cosmocat]

42. Yes

It was just flat fucking stupid.

[oswaldactedalone]

45. Dumbass move

by Slick Willie. WTF was he thinking?

[deaniac21]

43. There is no way

either of the Clinton's would EVER do anything unethical.

[elljay]

44. I know that judges

will not have private meetings with family members of people on trial in that court, even if the meeting is about the church bake sale. Attorneys do have higher ethical obligations in our professional capacity. This was very bad optics and he should have known better. Bill's judgment seems to be getting much worse as the years progress, which is no mean feat coming from a baseline of having "not sex" with an intern and lying about it under oath. For a man known for his superior political instincts, his comments about Obama during the 2008 election, his antics at the Boston poll and now this are not good signs.

[AtheistCrusader]

46. From the headline I figured this was a followup to electioneering in polling places in MA.

Guess not.

[Boomer]

47. Poor judgment, poor timing

I would dismiss this as inconsequential if Bill Clinton had a chance encounter with Lynch while each was moving through the airport, but he made a conscious, deliberate trip to visit Lynch in her airplane. Under the circumstances, there was absolutely no need to do this and plenty of reasons NOT to do this. Bad judgment to do this, even if nothing improper took place.

[patricia92243]

48. I voted for Bill both terms - for Hillary last time and will this time. Of course, Bill used bad

judgment. I'm sure Hillary could cheerfully chock him. If I were in the same situation as Hillary, I would absolutely kill him when he got home (not really.)

Having said that, I don't think it would make much difference to right wing people. If it wasn't this, it would be something else they would cook up in their little minds.

I would still beat Bill around the head and shoulders if I were Hillary. (Again, not really.)

I will be glad when it all ends.

[Jarqui]

49. Bill knew exactly what he was doing and the response to it

By getting to meet AG Lynch, he knew the reaction would be demands for Lynch to withdraw. One likely path would be for Lynch to appoint a special prosecutor. There's no way for a special prosecutor to get fully acquainted with all of the evidence in this case in a short period of time and write a report one way or the other before the election. There are a bunch of laws and case law on the classified material leaks, for quid pro quo with the Clinton Foundation and for obstruction of justice - all of which probably have to be looked at.

I think Bill was trying to make sure that Hillary can run out the clock on this investigation concluding before the election because he anticipates the news and details isn't likely to help her during the election. Even if she was cleared, there would be howling and media controversy that would distract and keep her in a negative light. Bill probably thinks their best move is to punt the ball way down the field to run out the clock. The special prosecutor pretty much shuts down a lot of the discussion before the election because like the FBI report, we're waiting. And even if they indict her, if she is president, she's in a much better position to defend herself than she is in now.

This meeting getting into the media was not an accident. Slick Willie is still just being slick Willie.

[B2G]

51. I think you've got it

And it sounds like it backfired. There won't be any special prosecutor, just an acceptance of Comey's recommendation.

He might have just removed her only buffer here. Idiot.

[okieinpain]

54. +1, I was sitting here thinking why

Would bill Clinton do that. He knows that it would cause a uproar so why do it. One thing that came to mind is he really doesn't want hillary to be president, But your explanation is even better.

[Matrosov]

72. +1 n/t

[cpwm17]

111. Cenk Uygur says the same here that Bill was trying to make sure that Hillary can run out the clock:

[tallahasseedem]

53. Yes

Unfortunately. We don't need anything that could be misconstrued as anything, even if an innocent run in.

[AngryOldDem]

55. Yes.

He should know better.

[jalan48]

56. Did he have his bullhorn with him?

[Baitball Blogger]

58. Of course it's bad judgment.

Public perception was once something that public officials considered before getting involved in any activity, but, not any more.

[malthaussen]

60. Depends on whether you think violating the principle of "Caesar's Wife..."

... is bad judgement or not. Historically, it would appear the Clintons have never much cared about it.

-- Mal

[flamingdem]

62. Big Dawg better reign it in

or we're all fugged.

[apcalc]

63. Bill Clinton has made too many unforced errors, and The Hillary campaign has had to clean up after h

[George II]

65. Why did you use that "leading" subject line when the linked opinion piece opined that outright?

[AntiBank]

70. My guess is that the OP was worried about having the post banned

That said, if I was Sen. Clinton, I would be outraged at Bill.

What a cock up.

[Yo_Mama]

90. If I were Hillary I would be furious too - I don't think this helps her at all.

It's not her fault, but she doesn't need it and she will inevitably have to deal with the fallout.

I'd be more than furious.

[NorthCarolina]

66. Please...he knew exactly what he was doing. The only question remaining is how long before

Lynch is forced to recuse herself from the Clinton private server investigation because of it.

[RoccoR5955]

68. I looked up the meaning of "bad judgement" in the dictionary

and Billy Ray Joe Bob Clinton's picture was there!

[Gman]

69. Horse Manure

The author has his head up his ass and is a partisan hack hoping and praying for what he THINKS is his only salvation from Hillary, an indictment which was never,.and is never going to happen because there is no criminal investigation

Some people's kids.

[spooky3]

71. The writer of this article is a right winger.

He's said other questionable and baseless things about Obama, the rights of LBGT students, etc.

http://mediamatters.org/search/index?qstring=Paul%20callan

Not a credible, unbiased source.

[AntiBank]

94. that link is weak sauce. In one the stories linked Callan defends Hillary

All that does is pull up stories where Callan is mentioned.

[spooky3]

103. That's your interpretation of the one story. And I notice you didn't comment on the others, in which

Cannon clearly was inappropriately critical of Obama and of progressive positions on LBGT communities (and in one, went outside of his expertise to comment on child psychology).

[AntiBank]

106. In 2 of the 4 links Callan is defending Clinton.

As for the transgender issue he was talking about a hypothetical first grader. That's an extremely grey area.

Either way, on balance your attempt to paint him as some right-wing hack is a fail.

Nice try though.

Btw, it was extremely poor judgement on Bill Clinton's part.

[UMTerp01]

73. OPTICS OPTICS OPTICS What the hell were they thinking?

Sorry but when I first heard about this story I wanted to slap the crap out of both of them. It probably was very innocent. If they wanted to communicate about emails they could have arranged a phone call or a secret meeting late at night. But the optics are just bad and feeds into the narrative that the Clintons are sneaky and untrustworthy. It was bad judgment on both their parts. I get he appointed her initially to a high legal position but he is a former a President and she is the head of the DOJ who will make the final call on his wife (presumptive Democratic nominee for POTUS) and so if she felt obligated to meet with him she shouldn't have. She earned her stripes. She should've been like sorry BRUH..........I can't talk to you.

Ugh...such a face palm moment.

[HassleCat]

76. Bad judgment?

Not Bill Clinton! Never!

[modestybl]

79. Ha!

... he always likes to play it to the edge...

[Lee-Lee]

81. No- the Attorney General did

President Clinton is a private citizen and can do whatever he wants.

The Attorney General is a public official who needs to ensure everything she does is not only above board but appears to be above board.

She failed. She never should have allowed even a chance meeting, much less engaged in a 30 minute meeting that appears clandestine in nature.

She failed, and did so very badly, in her judgement here.

[Politicalboi]

83. Yes

Lynch should step down. I don't believe anything they say. It's bullshit to think they only talked about grand kids. Clinton waitied for her so he could talk to her. She knew better to. Nice to see the Clintons being Clintons. It's what we expect from "those" kind of people.

[Yo_Mama]

85. Yes, but he may not have thought of it until it became public.

But yes, he should have known not to do this. I feel sorry for Lynch - apparently he's the one who got on her plane. I can't see her throwing the ex-pres off, especially since she probably had an utterly clear conscience.

Bottom line: he put Lynch in a bad position, caused bad publicity for Hillary's campaign, and caused bad publicity for DOJ. This is the sort of thing you just don't do.

[loyalsister]

105. I've heard some speculation that he really does not want Hillary to be pres.

There's no telling what goes on behind closed doors, but it is true that his ego is big enough to not want to have the successes of his presidency historically eclipsed by her and leave him relegated to the scumbag (the philandering will never be forgotten) she took advantage of to get where she wanted to go.

He does seem to have a knack for making ridiculous mistakes and seems to be a bit of a liability. I hope that she gets him to retreat from the public eye before he really screws it up.

[Yo_Mama]

107. I don't think that's the case. I think he is emotionally involved and sometimes makes bad

decisions because of his emotional involvement. It's understandable.

The reason doctors don't treat their relatives is that it is hard to be objective; lawyers shouldn't represent clients with whom they are emotionally involved either.

His desire to intervene to protect and defend his spouse may be humanly understandable, but it also may make it difficult for him to handle the public/press scrutiny.

[karadax]

89. Person to person talk = no recording of conversation.

My guess is that Bill wanted to talk and not run the risk of anyone eavesdropping. It caused a huge ruckus but nobody knows what they talked about. Mission successful.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

101. When?

...

[napi21]

108. This is such a stupid accusation I can't believe, even in today's idiocy in the media.

If BC wanted to influence the AG, going to see her IN PUBLIC, on a Colorado tarmac sure isn't how he would have done it!

Do you honestly believe he doesn't have her cell #?

Why in the World would he have waited till now?

This is just typical BC. If he sees someone he knows, he goes out of his way to say hello. THAT'S one of the reasons so many people really love him!

I read an article last week by a former state volunteer on BC's first election bid. He said he met him once when he came to his State for a campaign rally, but that was it. Last week this guy was at a Hillary rally with a friend of his and BC was there too. The friend asked him to introduce him to BC. He was walking toward BC when the former President looked up, saw him, and walked over to him and shook hands, asked how he's been doing, and called him by name. He apparently has a real gift of remembering names.

I still say this meeting on the tarmac was just Bill being Bill.

[Demonaut]

109. yes, Bill is an idiot to sabotage his wifes campaign

unless it was on purpose

mebbe he does not want to be the "first wife"

[Thinkingabout]

110. A lot of wild thoughts, Bill Clinton had confidence in Loretta Lynch when he was president

And she was one of Clinton's US attorney, she has a great reputation which does not need to be disparaged. The relationship of Bill Clinton and Loretta Lynch goes back many years, Bill knows he would not change any decisions Loretta Lynch would make.