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Eugene

(61,874 posts)
Mon Jul 11, 2016, 06:43 PM Jul 2016

Freddie Gray case: officer acquitted of assault charge

Source: The Guardian

Freddie Gray case: officer acquitted of assault charge

Judge Barry Williams rules he would go forward with manslaughter,
which is the most serious charge against Lt Brian Rice


Baynard Woods in Baltimore
Monday 11 July 2016 23.36 BST

In another blow to the prosecution of the officers charged in the death of Freddie Gray, a judge acquitted Lt Brian Rice of assault before the defense even presented its case. Judge Barry Williams called another of the remaining three charges “an extremely close call” but stopped short of dismissing it.

The prosecution rested its case Monday against Rice, the highest ranking officer charged in Gray’s death, after questioning several of Rice’s fellow officers.

Rice initiated a chase against Gray, a 25-year-old African American, after Gray began to run upon making eye contact with Rice last April. Gray died a week after that arrest, as a result of injuries he sustained while in police custody, setting off weeks of protests and unrest in the city.

Williams ruled that he would go forward with most of the charges, including manslaughter, the most serious charge Rice is facing.

[font size=1]-snip-[/font]


Read more: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jul/11/freddie-gray-case-officer-acquitted-assault-charge
86 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Freddie Gray case: officer acquitted of assault charge (Original Post) Eugene Jul 2016 OP
Utilizing summary judgment by a judge vs jury BumRushDaShow Jul 2016 #1
There is no jury. Travis_0004 Jul 2016 #2
That's what I wrote. nt BumRushDaShow Jul 2016 #4
there still won't be a jury dsc Jul 2016 #20
I didn't say there would be BumRushDaShow Jul 2016 #56
It's actually not a summary judgment, either. Ms. Toad Jul 2016 #65
The quick google claims such is for civil cases only BumRushDaShow Jul 2016 #80
I think a real JD is probably more reliable than Google, Esq. Ms. Toad Jul 2016 #81
The ridiculous hair-splitting that has resulted in this subthread BumRushDaShow Jul 2016 #82
Legal terms have specific meanings. Ms. Toad Jul 2016 #84
Again you misinterpreted what I originally wrote BumRushDaShow Jul 2016 #85
I did not say I don't know how MD handles the cases. Ms. Toad Jul 2016 #86
Asking a lawyer annavictorious Jul 2016 #3
Looks like the fix is in systemically against the black state's attorney brush Jul 2016 #5
The judge is the same judge whose been involved from the beginning SickOfTheOnePct Jul 2016 #6
So Freddie Gray killed himself? brush Jul 2016 #7
Nope SickOfTheOnePct Jul 2016 #8
Not securing a Gray in the back of a police van while being transport is not a crime . . . brush Jul 2016 #9
No, it's not a crime SickOfTheOnePct Jul 2016 #10
Cite the law that it's not a violation. brush Jul 2016 #11
Laws don't work that way SickOfTheOnePct Jul 2016 #12
The jury trial was hung. The judge, imo, is in on the fix. Someone is culpable. brush Jul 2016 #15
A hung jury SickOfTheOnePct Jul 2016 #16
Like I said, we know it when we see it. brush Jul 2016 #17
I would love to hear your rationale... TipTok Jul 2016 #41
It doesn't matter how he died. There has to be evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that this Akicita Jul 2016 #49
If a policeman got into a car with you and came out dead, you would be found guilty no matter what Ash_F Jul 2016 #13
Maybe SickOfTheOnePct Jul 2016 #14
What if the cop had a heart attack or stroke? Nye Bevan Jul 2016 #21
Let's say his spine was mysteriously broken. Ash_F Jul 2016 #27
If a cop had contact with you and a half dozen of your co-workers not all at the same time Akicita Jul 2016 #50
Haha no Ash_F Jul 2016 #57
Bullshit. If anything the officers were undercharged. Lord Magus Jul 2016 #51
Is that because you say so? TipTok Jul 2016 #58
Uncle Tom? NobodyHere Jul 2016 #18
I call them as I see them. So Gray killed himself? brush Jul 2016 #19
If I'm driving SickOfTheOnePct Jul 2016 #22
Ash F already answered that for you. See below. brush Jul 2016 #23
Nope SickOfTheOnePct Jul 2016 #24
You're getting kind of silly with that example brush Jul 2016 #25
Nobody is claiming Gray killed himself TeddyR Jul 2016 #28
The prosecutor DID prove their guilt. Lord Magus Jul 2016 #52
How? TipTok Jul 2016 #55
The man was in a box with no windows. cherokeeprogressive Jul 2016 #42
His dead, handcuffed, unsecured body should be more than enough evidence brush Jul 2016 #46
So which one of the officers killed him? And what proof do you have that he is the one that did it? Akicita Jul 2016 #54
Better analogy would be getaway driver for bank robbers. Lars39 Jul 2016 #60
That's crazy. Do you really believe that all the cops were involved in a premeditated conspiracy Akicita Jul 2016 #64
With armed robbery you don't know if nothing, minor injuries, or death will result. Lars39 Jul 2016 #67
If they all knew that putting a suspect in a police van always causes bodily injuries those vans Akicita Jul 2016 #68
An unsecured prisoner being given a very rough ride Lars39 Jul 2016 #70
Yes, but there is no evidence that the victim here was given a rough ride. No witnesses and no CCTV Akicita Jul 2016 #73
Then the injuries he was given before being put in the van killed him. Lars39 Jul 2016 #77
Even in your own posts, you contradict yourself... TipTok Jul 2016 #78
He was already injured and unrestrained. Lars39 Jul 2016 #79
Wasn't one of the key pieces of evidence for the defense... TipTok Jul 2016 #83
There were charges other than who killed him. brush Jul 2016 #61
Most progressives believe that the evidence in a criminal case must show beyond a reasonable doubt Akicita Jul 2016 #66
Seems most progressives would recognize the pattern of the criminal justice system . . . brush Jul 2016 #69
Reasonable doubt. Ash_F Jul 2016 #59
The case wasn't particularly strong to begin with based on the evidence TeddyR Jul 2016 #26
Yeah, yeah. That's always the fallback excuse — they overcharged brush Jul 2016 #29
You didn't actually address any of the points I made TeddyR Jul 2016 #30
All of them found not guilty of EVERY charge? Yeah, right. brush Jul 2016 #31
Did you even follow the trial of the van driver? Nye Bevan Jul 2016 #32
And cops never lie. How naive are you to believe that after all the high profile cases . . . brush Jul 2016 #35
So all cops should be convicted of every crime they are ever accused of because many cops have been Akicita Jul 2016 #75
If someone is killed and there were Yupster Jul 2016 #33
Like that makes sense. There were lesser charges against all of them. brush Jul 2016 #34
For arguments sake TeddyR Jul 2016 #36
At lease find the driver guilty of a lessor charge, since he is the one who is supporsed . . . brush Jul 2016 #37
First, I'm not making any judgment about whether Gray's life matters TeddyR Jul 2016 #38
Maybe... TipTok Jul 2016 #43
All exonerated of ALL CHARGES? Even the lessor ones. Come on. brush Jul 2016 #45
What can you prove? TipTok Jul 2016 #47
You can't prove anything if the judge doesn't think so brush Jul 2016 #48
Uh huh... TipTok Jul 2016 #53
Yeah, that judge brush Jul 2016 #62
Mosby took a calculated risk... TipTok Jul 2016 #71
The criminal justice system protects killer cops. brush Jul 2016 #72
Are you suggesting that they should be held to a different standard of proof... TipTok Jul 2016 #74
Maybe the cops knee on his neck fucked him up. Rex Jul 2016 #39
That's kind of the point... TipTok Jul 2016 #44
This is so very sad and frustrating. KMOD Jul 2016 #40
As a lawyer buddy melm00se Jul 2016 #63
This is a culpability shell game. Tommy_Carcetti Jul 2016 #76

dsc

(52,160 posts)
20. there still won't be a jury
Mon Jul 11, 2016, 09:10 PM
Jul 2016

even on the other charges. In MD defendants but not the prosecution have the right to a jury trial.

BumRushDaShow

(128,902 posts)
56. I didn't say there would be
Tue Jul 12, 2016, 05:50 AM
Jul 2016

that is what I wrote- i.e., what the "summary judgment by a judge vs jury" statement means. Only judges do "summary judgment". And "vs" = "versus" = "instead of".

And as a note, one of the other officers DID go through a jury trial and that resulted in a hung jury (and thus mistrial), so that is why the rest of them have avoided juries altogether because they have a better chance of being let off by a judge.

Ms. Toad

(34,066 posts)
65. It's actually not a summary judgment, either.
Tue Jul 12, 2016, 09:11 AM
Jul 2016

Last edited Tue Jul 12, 2016, 11:16 PM - Edit history (1)

Summary judgments are pre-trial decisions in a civil case (they play no role at all in a criminal case).

Edited to replace generalities with the correct MD law: In a criminal matter, the equivalent ruling is a judgment of acquittal.

BumRushDaShow

(128,902 posts)
80. The quick google claims such is for civil cases only
Tue Jul 12, 2016, 02:16 PM
Jul 2016

but the deeper Google that I did before posting says otherwise when it comes to police cases. I.e., this and the previous 2 officer's cases went before a judge who decided to acquit after review of the evidence.

Ms. Toad

(34,066 posts)
81. I think a real JD is probably more reliable than Google, Esq.
Tue Jul 12, 2016, 11:14 PM
Jul 2016

Summary judgment has a very specific legal meaning - and is exclusively limited to civil matters.

I am not saying that the judge had to wait until after the defense has presented its case to acquit the officer of some or all charges. Merely that what the judge granted was NOT a summary judgment.

In Maryland, the similar criminal ruling is a judgment of acquittal pursuant to Rule 4-324, a motion for which can be made at the close of the state's case (or the judge can grant it sua sponte).

BumRushDaShow

(128,902 posts)
82. The ridiculous hair-splitting that has resulted in this subthread
Wed Jul 13, 2016, 05:28 AM
Jul 2016

that you jumped into is missing the point I was making - i.e., that these cops have chosen review by a judge vs a jury, and by doing so, have achieved the better outcome for themselves. Period.

Ms. Toad

(34,066 posts)
84. Legal terms have specific meanings.
Wed Jul 13, 2016, 06:48 AM
Jul 2016

You can't just throw them around willy-nilly.

When you insist that a particular legal event happened, when what you are claiming happened is part of an entirely different kind of law, you are likely to be corrected by lawyers who read your claims. Particularly when you repeat it (and try to prove your case by Google, Esq) after being corrected.

Not only that, but you are mangling even the point you are trying to make.

There were two points at which decisions were made, and you are focusing on least significant one (the judgment of acquittal), and seem to think it was a direct result of the most significant one (the defendant waived a jury trial). The two are unrelated.

The policemen chose to forego a jury trial before the trial started. It is their right to have one, or to waive it. Once they do that, their fate is in the hands of the judge. Period. That fate may come after a full trial - or it may come at the close of the state's case - but nothing that happened after the trial started changed the fact that a judge would decide their case.

The judgment of acquittal - what you have been calling a summary judgment - has absolutely nothing to do with whether there is a jury or not. The prosecution has to prove facts that establish each and every element of the charged crime. If there are 10 elements, and the state only proves 9, with or without a jury - the defendant is still entitled, at the close of the state's case, to a judgment of acquittal (rendered by the judge).

BumRushDaShow

(128,902 posts)
85. Again you misinterpreted what I originally wrote
Wed Jul 13, 2016, 10:01 AM
Jul 2016

in a simple one-line subject-only post to a different poster, and then go on to lecture, not even considering that I may have been following the cases, and admitting that you had not idea about how MD handles these. Sorry but you can leave your lecturing at the door.

Ms. Toad

(34,066 posts)
86. I did not say I don't know how MD handles the cases.
Wed Jul 13, 2016, 05:56 PM
Jul 2016

I said I don't know the label they use, because the labels (and some minor details) are state-specific. I am not an MD attorney and, as I noted, so I didn't give you Maryland's label for the criminal process in my first response, and noted that I didn't have time to research the precise details at that time. But that it wasn't a summary judgment which is never an option in a criminal case.

I was responding to the entire thread, which started with this legally incorrect statement:


Utilizing summary judgment by a judge vs jury

has been the quickest way for them to get acquitted.


As I explained, the judgment of acquittal (i.e. a decision by the judge after the prosecution of its case, before the defense presented evidence) is available to each defendant regardless of whether they had a jury or not.. Waiving their right to a jury has nothing to do with the quick acquittal. A criminal judge ALWAYS, even when a defendant has not waived its right to a jury, has the obligation to acquit when the prosecution has not proven every single element of its case.

You have focused on the choice to avoid a jury ("Utilizing summary judgment by a judge v. jury&quot , a fact that is completely irrelevant to the judgment of acquittal the article is discussing.
 

annavictorious

(934 posts)
3. Asking a lawyer
Mon Jul 11, 2016, 06:57 PM
Jul 2016

If what Rice did cannot be characterized as an assault, how can it be characterized as manslaughter?
Isn't assault a lesser included crime?

brush

(53,771 posts)
5. Looks like the fix is in systemically against the black state's attorney
Mon Jul 11, 2016, 07:54 PM
Jul 2016

Seems to be much resentment that she bucked the system and promised justice for Freddie Gray's killing.

After the first trial before a jury resulted in a re-trial because of a non-verdict, all the other defendants attorneys' opted for a bench (judge) trial and a suitable, malleable judge was found.

What pisses me off is the judge, as expected, has found a way to find 3 cops involved in Gray's death not guilty.

He'll find the last two not guilty also. And he's a black judge. We used to call these types uncle toms.

It seems, if you draw conclusions from the judge's not guilty verdicts, Freddie Gray killed himself with no help from the cops who all, we are supposed to believe, are innocent of any wrong doing.

The judge ought to be ashamed of himself.

SickOfTheOnePct

(7,290 posts)
6. The judge is the same judge whose been involved from the beginning
Mon Jul 11, 2016, 07:58 PM
Jul 2016

The cases were weak, and Marilyn Mosby overcharged.

It's pretty offensive to imply that a black judge is an "Uncle Tom" just because he doesn't rule the way you think he should.

brush

(53,771 posts)
7. So Freddie Gray killed himself?
Mon Jul 11, 2016, 08:00 PM
Jul 2016

Saying the DA overcharged is the same thing heard after zimmerman was found not guilty of murdering Trayvon Martin.

It's seems to be a canned response to fall back on, sort of like the cops saying, "I feared for my life".

SickOfTheOnePct

(7,290 posts)
8. Nope
Mon Jul 11, 2016, 08:02 PM
Jul 2016

but the prosecution hasn't been able to prove that any carelessness on the part of the police officers rose to the level of criminality.

Beyond a reasonable doubt is the standard, and they haven't been able to meet that standard yet, either by jury or judge.

brush

(53,771 posts)
9. Not securing a Gray in the back of a police van while being transport is not a crime . . .
Mon Jul 11, 2016, 08:09 PM
Jul 2016

even though he died as a result of it?

Yeah, right.

Gray didn't sustain a sprained wrist.

He died.

It's obvious that the fix is in.

SickOfTheOnePct

(7,290 posts)
10. No, it's not a crime
Mon Jul 11, 2016, 08:13 PM
Jul 2016

Marilyn Mosby screwed up, big time, both by not waiting for a full investigation and then by overcharging.

Judges are supposed to follow the law, and this judge is doing just that.

brush

(53,771 posts)
11. Cite the law that it's not a violation.
Mon Jul 11, 2016, 08:18 PM
Jul 2016

This is so like the Trayvon Martin case, the Ferguson DA's non-indictment, the Staten Island non-indictment — the system is rigged against finding cops guilty of killing black people.

You can go on and on about overcharging and this or that is not a crime, but that's from a your perspective, apparently a non-victim one.

SickOfTheOnePct

(7,290 posts)
12. Laws don't work that way
Mon Jul 11, 2016, 08:21 PM
Jul 2016

They don't list things that aren't against the law in question.

You should ask yourself why the prosecutors haven't, thus far, been able to prove their cases beyond a reasonable doubt to either a jury or a judge.

brush

(53,771 posts)
15. The jury trial was hung. The judge, imo, is in on the fix. Someone is culpable.
Mon Jul 11, 2016, 08:37 PM
Jul 2016

Gray didn't kill himself.

This is not unusual. These not guilty verdicts against cops who kill black people has been going on for centuries. We know it when we see it.

SickOfTheOnePct

(7,290 posts)
16. A hung jury
Mon Jul 11, 2016, 08:42 PM
Jul 2016

means that the prosecution didn't prove their case.

Marilyn Mosby would have had a much better chance at convictions if she hadn't overcharged. But in the rush to make a bigger name for herself, it appears that she's going to convict fewer than half of the defendants, at best.

brush

(53,771 posts)
17. Like I said, we know it when we see it.
Mon Jul 11, 2016, 08:47 PM
Jul 2016

We obviously have different perspectives.

You look at the state's attorney as trying to make a name for herself.

I look at her as a person, a black person, finally in a position to stop the judicial farces seen in Staten Island, Ferguson, and Florida, and determined to stop that parade of court charades and finally find killer cops guilty — you know, find justice for a black person for once.

 

TipTok

(2,474 posts)
41. I would love to hear your rationale...
Tue Jul 12, 2016, 01:15 AM
Jul 2016

... and evidence that these Officers, many of whom are black, met the legal standard for these charges up to murder 2.

Akicita

(1,196 posts)
49. It doesn't matter how he died. There has to be evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that this
Tue Jul 12, 2016, 03:22 AM
Jul 2016

particular officer committed a crime in order for him to be convicted.

You can't just say Gray died in police custody so every cop who had contact with him is guilty of killing him with the only evidence being he is dead.

Ash_F

(5,861 posts)
13. If a policeman got into a car with you and came out dead, you would be found guilty no matter what
Mon Jul 11, 2016, 08:26 PM
Jul 2016

It wouldn't matter what your defense is or what they could prove. You would be found guilty.

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
21. What if the cop had a heart attack or stroke?
Mon Jul 11, 2016, 09:59 PM
Jul 2016

I think they would still need to prove that you were guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

Akicita

(1,196 posts)
50. If a cop had contact with you and a half dozen of your co-workers not all at the same time
Tue Jul 12, 2016, 03:30 AM
Jul 2016

and he turned up dead of spinal injuries you would not be convicted unless they could prove you were involved in his death. Same goes for each of your co-workers.

Ash_F

(5,861 posts)
57. Haha no
Tue Jul 12, 2016, 06:56 AM
Jul 2016

In our justice system, politics and power trump everything else.

It is not like an episode of Law and Order.

Lord Magus

(1,999 posts)
51. Bullshit. If anything the officers were undercharged.
Tue Jul 12, 2016, 03:36 AM
Jul 2016

And the judge is obviously corrupt for letting these cops literally get away with murder.

 

TipTok

(2,474 posts)
58. Is that because you say so?
Tue Jul 12, 2016, 06:58 AM
Jul 2016

Or do you have anything to back that up?

Are you referring to the judge who spent 8 years prosecuting police in the Civil Rights section of the Justice Dept?

SickOfTheOnePct

(7,290 posts)
22. If I'm driving
Mon Jul 11, 2016, 10:02 PM
Jul 2016

and my passenger isn't wearing a seatbelt, and I'm rearended and the passenger dies, am I guilty of second degree murder?

brush

(53,771 posts)
23. Ash F already answered that for you. See below.
Mon Jul 11, 2016, 10:04 PM
Jul 2016
If a policeman got into a car with you and came out dead, you would be found guilty no matter what

It wouldn't matter what your defense is or what they could prove. You would be found guilty.

SickOfTheOnePct

(7,290 posts)
24. Nope
Mon Jul 11, 2016, 10:09 PM
Jul 2016

They would have to prove it.

Ash F specifically said police, I'm saying anyone. Would I be guilty of 2nd degree murder if my unbelted passenger died in an accident that wasn't my fault?

brush

(53,771 posts)
25. You're getting kind of silly with that example
Mon Jul 11, 2016, 10:19 PM
Jul 2016

Nowhere near the same as cops, throwing a handcuffed person in the back of a police van, and not securing the person so they don't tumble around. It's their responsibility to secure him/her so they don't get hurt, in Gray's case, killed.

In the example you gave, the person in the back seat is not handcuffed and perfectly able to put on his/her own seat belt.

How about we substitute a baby not in a baby seat, you know, someone not able to secured themself.

You damn sure would face charges.

 

TeddyR

(2,493 posts)
28. Nobody is claiming Gray killed himself
Mon Jul 11, 2016, 10:35 PM
Jul 2016

But the prosecution charged multiple cops with his death and couldn't prove that any of them was responsible. That's the prosecutions job, and if they can't prove it then in the US we don't randomly convict just any individual for a crime. Sometimes this means that guilty people go free because the prosecution can't prove the case, and sometimes guilty people aren't even charged, because even though the police/prosecution are sure the individual is guilty they don't have the evidence to take the case to trial.

Lord Magus

(1,999 posts)
52. The prosecutor DID prove their guilt.
Tue Jul 12, 2016, 03:41 AM
Jul 2016

The judge just didn't care, because they're cops and cops are above the law.

 

cherokeeprogressive

(24,853 posts)
42. The man was in a box with no windows.
Tue Jul 12, 2016, 01:20 AM
Jul 2016

How in the UNIVERSE is it possible to prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, what happened inside?

brush

(53,771 posts)
46. His dead, handcuffed, unsecured body should be more than enough evidence
Tue Jul 12, 2016, 02:28 AM
Jul 2016

He was handcuffed and couldn't brace himself from tumbling around.

But nobody didn't anything wrong. They all neglected their responsibility to safely transport someone in their custody, especially the driver.

The man is dead for God's sake, yet we have all these apologists, and on a progressive site.

We've seen blatant instance after instance of cops lying to cover their asses from killing black people — like the killer/liar/evidence planter who shot Walter Scott in the back then tried to stage the scene before telling his lies — yet everyone, including the judge seems to take the cops' word.

Akicita

(1,196 posts)
54. So which one of the officers killed him? And what proof do you have that he is the one that did it?
Tue Jul 12, 2016, 03:44 AM
Jul 2016

That's what the judge needs to convict.

If you are in a movie theater and someone is killed during the movie and the police can't figure out who did it, is it fair to convict everyone who was in the theater because the victim didn't kill himself?

If the victim was black would you call the black judge an ugly racist term like uncle Tom if he didn't convict everyone in the theater assuming the prosecutor was dumb enough to indict everyone in the theater?

Akicita

(1,196 posts)
64. That's crazy. Do you really believe that all the cops were involved in a premeditated conspiracy
Tue Jul 12, 2016, 08:47 AM
Jul 2016

to commit a crime, murder, like a bank robbery gang? Not at all likely. They are not even being accused of that and there is no evidence of that.

I'll stick with my analogy.

Lars39

(26,109 posts)
67. With armed robbery you don't know if nothing, minor injuries, or death will result.
Tue Jul 12, 2016, 09:28 AM
Jul 2016

In this case they knew putting him in the van would give him some more bodily injury. They had probably already injured him prior to putting him in the van.
These types of rides are well known. I'll stick with my analogy, too.

Akicita

(1,196 posts)
68. If they all knew that putting a suspect in a police van always causes bodily injuries those vans
Tue Jul 12, 2016, 09:46 AM
Jul 2016

Would have been scrapped long ago.

This is the first I've heard that police vans always cause bodily injuries. What do you base that on? Or are you just making that up? If true, why didn't the DA charge the city administration for buying and operating equipment that the operators knew would cause bodily injury if used as intended?

Lars39

(26,109 posts)
70. An unsecured prisoner being given a very rough ride
Tue Jul 12, 2016, 09:51 AM
Jul 2016

has been an unacknowledged tactic of police departments for a long time.

Akicita

(1,196 posts)
73. Yes, but there is no evidence that the victim here was given a rough ride. No witnesses and no CCTV
Tue Jul 12, 2016, 10:14 AM
Jul 2016

showed a rough ride.

 

TipTok

(2,474 posts)
78. Even in your own posts, you contradict yourself...
Tue Jul 12, 2016, 11:16 AM
Jul 2016

How exactly would they 'know' that putting him in the van would case injury? Thousands of people had ridden just like that for years before without incident.

Oh wait, are you saying that the injury came beforehand?

Maybe?

How would the driver know? Or the guy who just showed up and helped him into the van?

The real point is that you don't know and can't even prove where the injury occured, let alone who caused it.

Lars39

(26,109 posts)
79. He was already injured and unrestrained.
Tue Jul 12, 2016, 11:22 AM
Jul 2016

Would be interesting to see what one of those devices that reord driving habits would show....lots of hard stops probably.

 

TipTok

(2,474 posts)
83. Wasn't one of the key pieces of evidence for the defense...
Wed Jul 13, 2016, 06:04 AM
Jul 2016

... a series of videos from around the city showing the transport with no observable hard stops or turns?

brush

(53,771 posts)
61. There were charges other than who killed him.
Tue Jul 12, 2016, 07:37 AM
Jul 2016

Last edited Tue Jul 12, 2016, 08:13 AM - Edit history (1)

Surely someone, possibly the driver of the van, should have been convicted of not securing the handcuffed victim in the back of his van so he wouldn't be flailing around without the ability to brace himself because of the handcuffs.

And I don't get at all why so many don't see something very wrong with all these not guilty verdicts when we know what happened in the Eric Garner case, the Trayvon Martin case, the Michael Brown case and many, many others. The criminal justice system protects killer cops.

It happened in those cases and it's apparent that's what's happening here. Why all the denials?

It's already starting to happen in the Baton Rouge case. Here's a link about the Baton Rouge cops suppressing a video from one person who taped that murder on a cell phone. Here's a link:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/07/11/alton-sterling-witness-cops-took-my-phone-my-surveillance-video-locked-me-up.html

And in Minnesota the cops won't release the dash cam video from that murderous cops car. Wonder what they're hiding, because if it exonerated the cop they'd be showing it everywhere).

Akicita

(1,196 posts)
66. Most progressives believe that the evidence in a criminal case must show beyond a reasonable doubt
Tue Jul 12, 2016, 09:25 AM
Jul 2016

that the accused person is guilty of a crime. Unless a premeditated conspiracy is proven, and that is not even being alleged in this case, the DA must prove which cop caused the fatal injury and which cops are guilty of others crimes. If the DA cannot prove the charges then the judge can't convict.

I don't believe many progressives think that if a person is injured, but the DA can't even prove how he was injured, that a judge should convict all of the people who came in contact with the deceased because one of them probably caused the injury.

brush

(53,771 posts)
69. Seems most progressives would recognize the pattern of the criminal justice system . . .
Tue Jul 12, 2016, 09:50 AM
Jul 2016

protecting killer cops too.

And I just don't get at all is why so many don't see something very wrong with all these not guilty verdicts when we know what happened in the Eric Garner case, the Trayvon Martin case, the Michael Brown case and on and on and on.

It's a well establish pattern nationally.

It happened in those cases and it's apparent that's what's happening here.

 

TeddyR

(2,493 posts)
26. The case wasn't particularly strong to begin with based on the evidence
Mon Jul 11, 2016, 10:30 PM
Jul 2016

And the prosecutor overcharged several of the officers. Not only that, her office withheld evidence it was required to turn over (more than once). In other words, she did a poor job. The prosecution had every chance to prove its case and failed to do so multiple times. And one of the officers was acquitted by jury (well, a hung jury, which means no conviction), though he'll be retried. Regardless of whether we think someone is guilty the prosecution must prove the case beyond a reasonable doubt, and if they don't then the accused is set free. And not sure why you think this judge is an "Uncle Tom" - do you think he should have found the defendants guilty even though the prosecution failed to prove its case?

brush

(53,771 posts)
29. Yeah, yeah. That's always the fallback excuse — they overcharged
Mon Jul 11, 2016, 10:40 PM
Jul 2016

Like in the Trayvon Martin case, or Ferguson or Staten Island.

There's always an excuse to find killer cops not guilty.

Finding cops who kill black men not guilty is nothing new. It's been going on for centuries.

The state attorney thought she could stop the systemic injustice but she ran up against forces in the criminal justice system that was/is determined to keep the status quo going.

Cops can still kill unarmed black men with impunity.

Might as well go ahead and say it, Freddie Gray killed himself.

The cops had nothing to do with it.

 

TeddyR

(2,493 posts)
30. You didn't actually address any of the points I made
Mon Jul 11, 2016, 10:46 PM
Jul 2016

The attorney prosecuting the case didn't run up against anything other than her own incompetence and lack of evidence. And if her case is really that strong and this judge fixed the case then it will be overturned on appeal. Just because you want someone, anyone convicted doesn't mean they should be.

brush

(53,771 posts)
31. All of them found not guilty of EVERY charge? Yeah, right.
Mon Jul 11, 2016, 10:51 PM
Jul 2016

That's real justice .

Every charge? Come on. Someone did something wrong or Gray would still be alive.

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
32. Did you even follow the trial of the van driver?
Tue Jul 12, 2016, 12:13 AM
Jul 2016

The other prisoner being transported described the trip as a "smooth ride" and said that Gray banged his own head repeatedly against the van wall. And there was no evidence, eyewitness, video, anything, to corroborate the "rough ride". How could you possibly argue for a murder conviction, given all of this?

brush

(53,771 posts)
35. And cops never lie. How naive are you to believe that after all the high profile cases . . .
Tue Jul 12, 2016, 12:40 AM
Jul 2016

of cops caught in blatant cover-their-asses lies after they've klled a black guy, over the last couple of years?

The judge is as naive as you if he believed that crapola, or he's in on the fix.

Innocent of all the charges, even the lessor ones. Come on. This is just another case of cops getting off after killing a black guy — whose life doesn't matter.

Akicita

(1,196 posts)
75. So all cops should be convicted of every crime they are ever accused of because many cops have been
Tue Jul 12, 2016, 10:47 AM
Jul 2016

lying in past cases. Even if CCTV evidence and witness testimony corroborate their story. Makes perfect sense to me. Would you apply that same standard to all black defendants if it can be shown that many previous black defendants have lied to save their skins? Or is that standard reserved for cops in your mind?

Yupster

(14,308 posts)
33. If someone is killed and there were
Tue Jul 12, 2016, 12:31 AM
Jul 2016

five people that might have done it, but you know that one of them did it, you can't just convict all five of them because someone obviously did it.

You have to prove that one of them actually did it.

If you can't prove one of them did it, then all of them are going to get off, the four innocent ones and the one guilty one.

 

TeddyR

(2,493 posts)
36. For arguments sake
Tue Jul 12, 2016, 12:41 AM
Jul 2016

I'll concede that "someone did something wrong." What the hell does that have to do with the acquittals? The prosecutions job is to prove which "someone did something wrong" according to the elements of the crime charged. The prosecution doesn't get to identify 6 potential suspects and throw darts at a board.

brush

(53,771 posts)
37. At lease find the driver guilty of a lessor charge, since he is the one who is supporsed . . .
Tue Jul 12, 2016, 12:51 AM
Jul 2016

secure a handcuffed suspect in the back of his van so the suspect is not rolling around with the possibility of getting hurt, in this case, getting killed.

This is just another case of cops getting off after killing a black guy — whose life doesn't matter.

 

TeddyR

(2,493 posts)
38. First, I'm not making any judgment about whether Gray's life matters
Tue Jul 12, 2016, 12:56 AM
Jul 2016

I'm simply saying that the prosecution has a job to do (prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt) and the defense has a job to do (create reasonable doubt). The defense failed to carry its burden. Second, my understanding of the evidence (not having followed this case in detail) is that the prosecution failed to prove that the van ride caused the injuries. If you are going to convict the driver then you have to prove the driver's actions resulted in injury, and the prosecution did not.

 

TipTok

(2,474 posts)
43. Maybe...
Tue Jul 12, 2016, 01:22 AM
Jul 2016

Mosby would have been better off charging for that instead of murder 2 and on down the line.

All of her wounds are self inflicted...

brush

(53,771 posts)
45. All exonerated of ALL CHARGES? Even the lessor ones. Come on.
Tue Jul 12, 2016, 02:14 AM
Jul 2016

None of those cops did anything wrong?

Yeah, right .

brush

(53,771 posts)
48. You can't prove anything if the judge doesn't think so
Tue Jul 12, 2016, 03:13 AM
Jul 2016

So if the judge goes along, all cops will be exonerated of ALL charges, even though a man is dead.

Somebody is obviously lying, it's up to the judge to figure out how to deliver justice because a man is dead.

Seems a cop out by a lazy judge to find all innocent of all charges.

 

TipTok

(2,474 posts)
53. Uh huh...
Tue Jul 12, 2016, 03:43 AM
Jul 2016

That awful, terrible, lazy judge (who is also African American) who helped prosecute police misconduct in the Civil Rights section of the Justice Department for 8 years?

That judge?

brush

(53,771 posts)
62. Yeah, that judge
Tue Jul 12, 2016, 07:38 AM
Jul 2016

And I don't get at all why so many don't see something very wrong with all these not guilty verdicts when we know what happened in the Eric Garner case, the Trayvon Martin case, the Michael Brown case and many, many others.

The criminal justice system protects killer cops.

It happened in those cases and it's apparent that's what's happening here.

 

TipTok

(2,474 posts)
71. Mosby took a calculated risk...
Tue Jul 12, 2016, 09:59 AM
Jul 2016

... and banked on the conviction of the first officer to push him into testifying against the others.

Once that blew up in her face, she only had the evidence on hand and it wasns't much other than the fact that something had happened.

 

TipTok

(2,474 posts)
74. Are you suggesting that they should be held to a different standard of proof...
Tue Jul 12, 2016, 10:24 AM
Jul 2016

... than everyone else?

Reasonable doubt but only for some?

 

TipTok

(2,474 posts)
44. That's kind of the point...
Tue Jul 12, 2016, 01:38 AM
Jul 2016

Maybe it was during the detainment... Most of which was filmed

Maybe it was during the ride... most of which was also filmed...

Lots of maybes and no definitive proof...

 

KMOD

(7,906 posts)
40. This is so very sad and frustrating.
Tue Jul 12, 2016, 01:11 AM
Jul 2016

The young man is dead and no one is responsible.

Do they want us to believe that this was just an accidental death?

This is just so very wrong. The police have a very hard responsibility, but the mission is to serve and protect.

We all know that they were careless in their handling of Freddie Gray. His arrest was a sham, and it just went downhill from there.

melm00se

(4,991 posts)
63. As a lawyer buddy
Tue Jul 12, 2016, 08:18 AM
Jul 2016

reminds folks when they talk about the legal cases and trials:

There are things that you know and then there are things that you can prove.

The two sometimes overlap and sometimes they don't.

Tommy_Carcetti

(43,181 posts)
76. This is a culpability shell game.
Tue Jul 12, 2016, 10:54 AM
Jul 2016

Whoever is on trial will pass the buck elsewhere and in the end, no one will be called to account for it.

And make no mistake about it, Freddie Gray did not break his own neck.

I haven't seen this much ridiculous legal posturing inexplicably used to success since the George Zimmerman trial.

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