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Tue Jul 12, 2016, 11:14 AM

There Have Been 8,124 Murders by Firearm in the U.S. vs. 29 (144 equiv.) in the U.K.

There Have Been 8,124 Murders by Firearm in the U.S. vs. 29 (144 equiv.) in the U.K.

Posted on Jul 12, 2016
By Juan Cole


The United States continues to be peculiar in handing out powerful magazine-fed firearms to almost anyone who wants one and not requiring background checks on private purchases even if these are made at gun shows. 80% of civilian-owned firearms world-wide are in the US, and only Yemen vaguely competes with us for rates of firearm ownership; Yemen is a violent mess with Shiite insurgencies, al-Qaeda taking over cities from time to time, tribal feuding, southern separatism and US drone strikes. And even it has fewer guns per person than the USA.

It has gotten to the point where the increasing epidemic of mass shootings now threatens law enforcement, with the deaths of 5 policemen in Dallas at the hands of an unhinged Black ultra-nationalist.

The US is downright weird compared to civilized Western Europe or Australia (which enacted gun control after a mass shooting in 1996 and there have been no further such incidents).

In 2013-2014 (the twelve months beginning in March), there were [font color="red"]29 fatalities from gun-related crimes[/font] in England and Wales (equivalent to 144 because UK is smaller than US).

Number of Murders by Firearms, US, 2014: 8124

Percentage of [font color="red"]all Murders that were committed by firearms in US[/font]: 68%

[font color="red"]Suicides in US 2013[/font]: 41,149

[font color="red"]Gun Suicides in US, 2013[/font]: 21,175

Percentage of [font color="red"]all murders in England and Wales that were committed[/font] by firearm: 5.4 percent.

Number of [font color="red"]suicides in England and Wales[/font], 2011: 4871 (equivalent to about 25,818 in US or 31% lower)

[font color="red"]Number of suicides by firearm in England and Wales[/font], 2011: 84 ..................(more)

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/there_have_been_8124_murders_by_firearm_us_vs_29_144_equiv_uk_20160712




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Arrow 15 replies Author Time Post
Reply There Have Been 8,124 Murders by Firearm in the U.S. vs. 29 (144 equiv.) in the U.K. (Original post)
marmar Jul 2016 OP
maxsolomon Jul 2016 #1
maxsolomon Jul 2016 #2
Exilednight Jul 2016 #5
beevul Jul 2016 #3
Humanist_Activist Jul 2016 #4
maxsolomon Jul 2016 #8
sarisataka Jul 2016 #10
maxsolomon Jul 2016 #11
sarisataka Jul 2016 #13
maxsolomon Jul 2016 #14
Humanist_Activist Jul 2016 #12
maxsolomon Jul 2016 #7
Logical Jul 2016 #9
struggle4progress Jul 2016 #6
oneshooter Jul 2016 #15

Response to marmar (Original post)

Tue Jul 12, 2016, 11:25 AM

1. Its the sheer number of guns.

American gun owners do a surprisingly good job of not using their guns, but if even a really tiny percentage of the guns are used, it turns into these numbers.

.0001% of 300 million guns = 30K gun deaths. One ten-thousandth of a percent.

and to the RKBA DU poster who recently argued with me that less access to guns wouldn't reduce America's suicide rate, that self-destructive impulses + the ease of firearms has nothing to do with it: the UK's rate is 31% lower.

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Response to marmar (Original post)

Wed Jul 13, 2016, 11:52 AM

2. Kick

I don't know why this thread sank

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Response to maxsolomon (Reply #2)

Wed Jul 13, 2016, 03:10 PM

5. Too many Democrats who claim to be free thinkers support the 2nd

Just as vitriolically as the right. They may be free thinkers, but they're certainly not critical ones.

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Response to marmar (Original post)

Wed Jul 13, 2016, 01:46 PM

3. During that same period, there were 60 thousand defensive gun uses...

 

In 2013-2014 (the twelve months beginning in March), there were 29 fatalities from gun-related crimes in England and Wales (equivalent to 144 because UK is smaller than US).

Number of Murders by Firearms, US, 2014: 8124


During that same period, there were roughly 60 thousand defensive gun uses, or more:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1172191826


How many in England and Wales?

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Response to beevul (Reply #3)

Wed Jul 13, 2016, 02:30 PM

4. Even the link provided on the other post says no such thing...

 

in fact, its would be about 47 thousand DGUs annually, and that's less than 1% of violent crime yearly. Not to mention the inherent unreliability of self-reporting surveys. Hence why there should be more studies conducted.

http://www.vpc.org/studies/justifiable.pdf

I would recommend actually looking at the data rather than trying to skew it to support your position.

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Response to Humanist_Activist (Reply #4)

Wed Jul 13, 2016, 04:19 PM

8. Page 9 cites the NVCS numbers of 338K over 5 years

that's 67K/year. I can accept that number as a rough estimate if we can also accept that a large portion of those DGUs are illegal as well.

I'd love it if the DGU number got nailed down through some sort of scientific survey by a trusted organization. Like, just off the top of my head, the CDC maybe?

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Response to maxsolomon (Reply #8)

Wed Jul 13, 2016, 04:37 PM

10. Why must

a large portion be illegal for you to accept that number as valid.

If the CDC says the number is actually 300,000 legal DGUs/year will you be satisfied with that number determined by a trusted organization?
(no they haven't said that exactly but have said the number of DGUs likely exceeds all gun crime combined. They agree, as do I , more study is needed)

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Response to sarisataka (Reply #10)

Wed Jul 13, 2016, 04:54 PM

11. Because a large portion of them ARE illegal.

and that should be acknowledged if one is making the argument that a gun is necessary for self-protection.

Alton Sterling had successfully completed a DGU before he was killed - it's the reason the cops were called. He was a felon with no rights to carry a gun.

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Response to maxsolomon (Reply #11)

Wed Jul 13, 2016, 05:00 PM

13. What data do you have

that shows a large portion are illegal? That would need to be proven before being acknowledged. You also sidestepped my question of would you accept a CDC finding that did not match your views?

Anton Sterling was a felon and it sounds like he brandished the gun. That would be illegal. I don't think that warranted deadly force; also the police did not know at the time that he was a felon.

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Response to sarisataka (Reply #13)

Wed Jul 13, 2016, 08:03 PM

14. I'd accept a new CDC study that didnt involve Gary Kleck or utilize his 2.5 million DGU/yr number

Which I find patently absurd.

I don't have any data about the illegality of X% of DGUs, of course - it's my opinion based on reading Evan DeFillipis. Do you have some? That's not Kleck-based?

I agree, Sterling's use of a gun (not to mention possession of one) before his encounter with the police was illegal; it was also a Defensive Gun Use. An illegal DGU that one would not report to the police.

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Response to maxsolomon (Reply #8)

Wed Jul 13, 2016, 04:58 PM

12. That includes property crime, the thing is that even...

 

If there are 60k or 40k uses of DGUs, does it balance out the risks of owning firearms, particularly handguns.

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Response to beevul (Reply #3)

Wed Jul 13, 2016, 04:06 PM

7. Do you count Alton Sterling's gun use prior to his killing as defensive?

He flashed his gun at a Panhandler to get him to fuck off already. The Panhandler called the cops; now he's dead. I think Sterling would have considered that a DGU.

Evan DeFillipis at armedwithreason.com contends that many, if not most, DGUs are illegal. http://www.armedwithreason.com/debunking-the-defensive-gun-use-myth/

To answer your question, I suppose there were many self-defenses in England and Wales that didn't involve firearms. You don't get a prize when you use a gun versus a cricket bat.

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Response to beevul (Reply #3)

Wed Jul 13, 2016, 04:29 PM

9. Lol, and like 20 times more defended with no weapon! Nt

 

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Response to marmar (Original post)

Wed Jul 13, 2016, 03:52 PM

6. But can you accurately describe the features of each gun and the ammo used?

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Response to struggle4progress (Reply #6)

Wed Jul 13, 2016, 10:42 PM

15. If he had that information,

Would you have the knowledge to understand it?

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