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HipChick

(25,485 posts)
Wed Jul 13, 2016, 12:28 PM Jul 2016

Why all white people are racist, but can't handle being called racist: the theory of white fragility

Full Interview:
http://stateofopportunity.michiganradio.org/post/you-asked-it-extended-interview-theory-white-fragility

http://libjournal.uncg.edu/index.php/ijcp/article/view/249/116

DiAngelo says white fragility starts from the moment of birth. Because of our segregation, those of us born white end up seeing mostly white people around us. Once we’re old enough to experience culture, we still see mostly white people – in children’s books, on TV shows. We live in segregated neighborhoods, where the white areas of town are inevitably seen as “good” and the areas where minorities live are “bad.” Schools are judged the same way.

"If we just gained our opinions from living our lives, following the trajectories laid out for us in schools and in our families, and in our kind of social interactions," DiAngelo says, "we will necessarily be ignorant about race and racism."But that doesn’t stop us from forming opinions, many of them strongly held. And one of the biggest ones is about what racism means, and who is racist. "The number one most effective adaptation of racism over time," DiAngelo says, "is the good/bad binary, this idea that a racist is a bad person and a good person is not racist. And so it’s about individuals who are either good or bad or who either do or don’t engage."One of the side effects is that many white people come to believe that if they just don’t talk about or think about race, then they are not racist.

"Racism comes out of our pores as white people. It's the way that we are."
Then, if someone comes along and talks about racism the way DiAngelo does – that racism is a system of oppression. That anyone can be prejudiced, but in America, only white people are racist. And, actually, all white people are racist because, as DiAngelo says:
"Racism comes out of our pores as white people. It's the way that we are."


171 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Why all white people are racist, but can't handle being called racist: the theory of white fragility (Original Post) HipChick Jul 2016 OP
Oh please, not this shit again. NaturalHigh Jul 2016 #1
no kidding. puffy socks Jul 2016 #71
Key word: inclusive…. Very important point.. Thanks for saying so... midnight Jul 2016 #148
The author is an idiot... FBaggins Jul 2016 #92
Robin DiAngelo has always been a progressive not afraid to take on the establishment bdwker Jul 2016 #111
Maybe some deniers should listen bdwker Jul 2016 #141
Boloney elleng Jul 2016 #2
that's so true! n/t zazen Jul 2016 #3
It's actually a load of bullshit starting with the first few sentences snooper2 Jul 2016 #33
Denial factor is always high.. HipChick Jul 2016 #51
Do you deny eating children? Loki Liesmith Jul 2016 #153
Social justice vernacular is needlessly confusing Nevernose Jul 2016 #4
... puffy socks Jul 2016 #75
Intentionally confusing and vague... TipTok Jul 2016 #122
"Racism comes out of our pores as white people. It's the way that we are." bdwker Jul 2016 #5
If that is true, I guess all white people cannot help but be racists Quantess Jul 2016 #8
The argument is dripping with racial undertones and not in a good way. R. Daneel Olivaw Jul 2016 #14
Nothing good can come out of a "theory" like that. Quantess Jul 2016 #18
Tenure mahatmakanejeeves Jul 2016 #86
I stand corrected Quantess Jul 2016 #124
Lol Blanks Jul 2016 #151
Anyone or race can be racist. But you must remember that there is good and bad in every race. The Wielding Truth Jul 2016 #56
It's a truism. Igel Jul 2016 #61
This message was self-deleted by its author rbrnmw Jul 2016 #6
The system is racist. People are bigots. (n/t) Iggo Jul 2016 #7
Welp, that's that. B2G Jul 2016 #9
We live in segregated neighborhoods, where the white areas of town.. GummyBearz Jul 2016 #10
There ya go: dripping with white privilege. R. Daneel Olivaw Jul 2016 #15
Mmmm.. GummyBearz Jul 2016 #16
It was in favour of that and in ridicule of this OP. R. Daneel Olivaw Jul 2016 #19
Great, I think we share the same thoughts on the article in this OP GummyBearz Jul 2016 #30
It wasn't a stupid story. It was a good one. dmr Jul 2016 #121
We establish relationships based on those around us... Blanks Jul 2016 #156
Hey, same here. Marr Jul 2016 #48
This sounds like something Rush Limbaugh would say about African Americans. R. Daneel Olivaw Jul 2016 #11
Indeed. Chemisse Jul 2016 #28
This is study by a white person... HipChick Jul 2016 #53
Maybe he/she has an agenda? Separation Jul 2016 #72
Attention and relevence.... TipTok Jul 2016 #123
Which makes my statement no less valid. R. Daneel Olivaw Jul 2016 #73
But can we really trust a study conducted by racists? Islandurp Jul 2016 #100
So? Abq_Sarah Jul 2016 #150
i guess my black wife married a racist! Dustlawyer Jul 2016 #12
that's a lame argument. That's like the guy who says Exilednight Jul 2016 #23
Get real. Dustlawyer Jul 2016 #46
I'm being honest. I worked for this one guy who swore up and Exilednight Jul 2016 #65
Same with a co-worker whose wife was from the Phillipines Bradical79 Jul 2016 #77
I know plenty of mixed couples HipChick Jul 2016 #55
I'm betting he also belongs to the "racism means racism by white people" school too? Donald Ian Rankin Jul 2016 #13
Guessing the author is a SJW who uses "racist" and "privilege" like articles of speech. Dreamer Tatum Jul 2016 #17
More like articles of faith (n/t) Seeking Serenity Jul 2016 #68
Speak for yourself Old Codger Jul 2016 #20
"Racism comes out of our pores as white people. It's the way that we are." cpwm17 Jul 2016 #21
And just look at her cultural appropriation with her Native American jewelry (nt) LongtimeAZDem Jul 2016 #38
Noticed that too... Throd Jul 2016 #39
thread winner AntiBank Jul 2016 #74
Thank you. okasha Jul 2016 #109
I wonder what, if anything, comes out of the pores of black or asian people? The2ndWheel Jul 2016 #40
Tolerance and acceptance philosslayer Jul 2016 #50
You're joking, right? I lived in Asia, prejudice is common. Marengo Jul 2016 #52
Agreed. Japan is possibly the most racist place on earth. Lyric Jul 2016 #133
Never been to Japan but Shankapotomus Jul 2016 #160
I can't speak for Black People but yuiyoshida Jul 2016 #113
Hate and racism are learned liberal N proud Jul 2016 #22
It is amazing what gets hidden and what is allowed to stand at DU Doctor_J Jul 2016 #24
+1 (nt) LongtimeAZDem Jul 2016 #26
I guess it depends if... R. Daneel Olivaw Jul 2016 #43
stereotyping is wrong, unless the subject is LEO and/or white people Skittles Jul 2016 #119
You would want to hide this? PersonNumber503602 Jul 2016 #161
Is this 'racist gene' close to the one that determines skin pigmentation? Chemisse Jul 2016 #25
Utter un-adulterated self loathing BULLSHIT !!!!! nt clarice Jul 2016 #27
Time for some Avenue Q forgotmylogin Jul 2016 #29
I didn't get through the whole video, but it makes a good point LiberalLovinLug Jul 2016 #44
There was an attempt to use bussing... Blanks Jul 2016 #159
The author of this article's livelihood depends upon racism's continuing existence. Nye Bevan Jul 2016 #31
If "Whiteness Studies" were truly parallel to "Black Studies" Igel Jul 2016 #63
"Whiteness Studies?" okasha Jul 2016 #110
I believe you nailed it. her entire livelihood depends on promoting racism. Doctor_J Jul 2016 #163
Uh oh. Dr. Strange Jul 2016 #170
Wow, from birth. Why not conception? The2ndWheel Jul 2016 #32
"Wow, from birth. Why not conception?" Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2016 #128
What in white guilt hell??? romanic Jul 2016 #34
Well if a person is born racist sarisataka Jul 2016 #35
And "sensitivity training" is akin to "gay conversion therapy", Nye Bevan Jul 2016 #60
That would seem to sarisataka Jul 2016 #62
Racist says all whites are racist MowCowWhoHow III Jul 2016 #36
BS 840high Jul 2016 #37
Such ivory tower horseshit can only come from white privelege. n/t Throd Jul 2016 #41
Someone needs to wipe the racism off of his brow. B2G Jul 2016 #42
Funny how racists... bdwker Jul 2016 #45
Care to Elaborate? ProfessorGAC Jul 2016 #57
"Funny how racists never admit they're racists. Tells you all you need to know." Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2016 #126
Anyone who admits they are a racist is a racist. Anyone who denies they are a racist is a racist. PersonNumber503602 Jul 2016 #162
And everyone who pleads not guilty to something MurrayDelph Jul 2016 #167
Guilty! PersonNumber503602 Jul 2016 #168
my 1st grade school on the edge of the core was still pretty white, but i had a black friend on my pansypoo53219 Jul 2016 #47
A good facial steamer could help Ms. DiAngelo clean out those pores. WillowTree Jul 2016 #49
I'm hoping to find a facial/deprogramming package deal... SMC22307 Jul 2016 #171
I work with kids and I can attest racism is taught kimbutgar Jul 2016 #54
+1 Dont_Bogart_the_Pretzel Jul 2016 #102
Unfortunately, our society teaches racism by default gollygee Jul 2016 #137
I was in junior high before I knew some people didn't see black and white as the same radical noodle Jul 2016 #158
Well, not quite whatthehey Jul 2016 #58
Ridiculous nonsense angrychair Jul 2016 #59
Kick mwrguy Jul 2016 #64
So, you can be a good person and be a racist, as well? maxsolomon Jul 2016 #66
They don't like being called racists either Bradical79 Jul 2016 #79
idiots agnostic102 Jul 2016 #67
agree about Obama. he is superb at the balancing game AntiBank Jul 2016 #96
The point about social segregation is true, no matter what one thinks about the thesis. haele Jul 2016 #69
Really? Only 30% white? whatthehey Jul 2016 #78
Finger slip. 60% - and that approximation includes "White Hispanics" and many Middle Easterners - haele Jul 2016 #94
the white population of the US is 77.35% not 30. This includes white AntiBank Jul 2016 #88
Media Identification break down tends white vs "white ethnic" and other minorities. haele Jul 2016 #95
K&R ismnotwasm Jul 2016 #70
Exactly! loyalsister Jul 2016 #89
great honesty..uncomfortable self analysis HipChick Jul 2016 #104
One might as well argue that racism is generally a human trait... yawnmaster Jul 2016 #76
Kick... giftedgirl77 Jul 2016 #80
That's not fragility exploding; it's sufferance (nt) LongtimeAZDem Jul 2016 #87
Exactly. bdwker Jul 2016 #91
I've yet to see Hillary Clinton admit she is a racist. Dr. Strange Jul 2016 #99
Yes, white people suck for not admitting that all white people suck. cpwm17 Jul 2016 #97
Poor white people, always the victim. giftedgirl77 Jul 2016 #136
Self awareness is a virtue. cpwm17 Jul 2016 #142
Lol, aren't you cute. giftedgirl77 Jul 2016 #145
Post removed Post removed Jul 2016 #98
Absolutely ridiculous. Wayburn Jul 2016 #81
There is some truth to that, but it is racist to claim all whites are racist. Doodley Jul 2016 #82
This seems to me like someone is trying to legitimize their own racist tendencies... Else You Are Mad Jul 2016 #83
racism without racists puffy socks Jul 2016 #84
this is the type of claptrap that can truly be categorically called a pure shitstir AntiBank Jul 2016 #85
All white people are racist? Literally every single white person is a racist? guillaumeb Jul 2016 #90
How does one even respond to something like think. Firebrand Gary Jul 2016 #93
Essentialism. Crunchy Frog Jul 2016 #101
This makes no sense fasttense Jul 2016 #103
Why isn't this being posted in Race and Ethnicity The forums there are specifically dedicated to Monk06 Jul 2016 #105
Bullpucky! ananda Jul 2016 #106
I am not in any mood to get into a tit for tat but I agree with the premise. JanMichael Jul 2016 #107
Okey dokey. lumberjack_jeff Jul 2016 #108
None of us wants to admit that we might be racist. Skinner Jul 2016 #112
I feel like the term "racist" has been watered down by overuse Bucky Jul 2016 #115
I think what you say is largely true. Skinner Jul 2016 #117
You are correct. The reason they don't want to hear it is that fragility. JanMichael Jul 2016 #118
Exactly.... HipChick Jul 2016 #131
Yup. ismnotwasm Jul 2016 #143
In comparison President Obama's framing is much more effective HipChick Jul 2016 #130
Agree...If we’re honest, perhaps we’ve heard prejudice in our own heads and felt it in our own heart HipChick Jul 2016 #127
I can admit to those feelings sometimes. Lyric Jul 2016 #135
That post is very courageous. Skinner Jul 2016 #138
I think that these social illnesses cannot be overcome and healed Lyric Jul 2016 #146
Nothing but respect from me, for honest introspection. n/t ronnie624 Jul 2016 #165
Not all stereotype is racism. lumberjack_jeff Jul 2016 #144
+1. n/t ronnie624 Jul 2016 #164
K&R Thanks for sharing. Nt NCTraveler Jul 2016 #114
Or maybe this is wrong. For example, I very much doubt that most white persons Yo_Mama Jul 2016 #116
lol Skittles Jul 2016 #120
Denial bdwker Jul 2016 #125
yes, of RACISTS Skittles Jul 2016 #147
This is ridiculous, but according to the person's theory a black person would also have to be Vinca Jul 2016 #129
That's not how it works gollygee Jul 2016 #132
Interesting discussion point.. HipChick Jul 2016 #134
So white people are inferior? I think there's a word for believing one race is inferior to another. Bok_Tukalo Jul 2016 #139
You may say "not this shit again," but it's not off base matt819 Jul 2016 #140
Uh-huh. Abq_Sarah Jul 2016 #149
A load of crap Loki Liesmith Jul 2016 #152
So what if they are? Cayenne Jul 2016 #154
If Diangelo is correct Shankapotomus Jul 2016 #155
All black people are racist, too. Because EVERYBODY is a little bit racist. (nt) w4rma Jul 2016 #157
Bizarre racialist nonsense AgingAmerican Jul 2016 #166
how does calling anyone anything facilitate their personal growth? Serious question. Warren DeMontague Jul 2016 #169
 

puffy socks

(1,473 posts)
71. no kidding.
Wed Jul 13, 2016, 03:27 PM
Jul 2016

This is how we come together and fight police brutality?


This is why I keep saying to stop making the focus just AAs, You can't build a movement without being inclusive . It does not help any of us to say "support us" even though we don't give two shits if your family is unfairly brutalized because we're the bigger victims"
No one is co-opting BLM movement. We get white privilege and all the double standards and purposeful oppressing of AAs etc.


It's pointing out that others are in the same boat and there a lot of them and they are of all races of all ages .
why cant other people stop with the white fragility and "born racist" baloney. This author can kiss my butt!


"We as a nation can decide to stand up for what is right, no matter your race, background or social status," forward Maya Moore told reporters. "It is time that we take a deep look at our ability to be compassionate and empathetic to those suffering from the problems that are deep within our society. Again, this is a human issue, and we need to speak out for change together."

http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/12/us/wnba-minnesota-lynx-black-lives-matter-shirts/

They get it. and they can support BLM and fight the systemic police brutality that affects all races. The two are not mutually exclusive.

Now what do you want to do about it? Fight about who the fuck has had it the worst forever?
Or can we get on with pressing law enforcement together to adopt the manifesto from BLM? (I dont like the term "manifesto", it has bad connotations being associated with mass shooters.


 

bdwker

(435 posts)
111. Robin DiAngelo has always been a progressive not afraid to take on the establishment
Wed Jul 13, 2016, 08:26 PM
Jul 2016

see the video on WHITE FRAGILITY

 

bdwker

(435 posts)
141. Maybe some deniers should listen
Thu Jul 14, 2016, 12:30 PM
Jul 2016

Putting Racism on the Table: Robin DiAngelo on White Privilege

Nevernose

(13,081 posts)
4. Social justice vernacular is needlessly confusing
Wed Jul 13, 2016, 12:36 PM
Jul 2016

I understand the definition -- multiculturalism is literally a big chunk of my job description. However, you're never going to convince Average Janes & Joes that "racism is a system of oppression. That anyone can be prejudiced, but in America, only white people are racist."

It's true, but it's also too nuanced for most people who don't already have some sort of vested interest in the subject. Americans don't like nuance and they don't like changing what they already know. We do, however, seem to be more than willing to ADD to what we know. I have a lot of success when I teach people about the difference between system-wide racism and personal racism. It makes it more approachable for people who might be very reactionary.

It's the same reason I never say "microagression," but instead use "micromessaging."

It's simply more pragmatic. I don't give a flying rat's ass about the actual terminology in use, I care that people are less personally racist and that they understand and don't contribute to systemic racism. This guy is making an argument about terminology, never considering the practical effects.

 

puffy socks

(1,473 posts)
75. ...
Wed Jul 13, 2016, 03:42 PM
Jul 2016

However, you're never going to convince Average Janes & Joes that "racism is a system of oppression. That anyone can be prejudiced, but in America, only white people are racist."

It's true, but it's also too nuanced for most people who don't already have some sort of vested interest in the subject. "



No. It's not true.

 

TipTok

(2,474 posts)
122. Intentionally confusing and vague...
Thu Jul 14, 2016, 04:42 AM
Jul 2016

Pretty much anybody can be labeled as the 'other', 'enemy' or 'oppressor' as the needs of the person vomiting it change.

Quantess

(27,630 posts)
8. If that is true, I guess all white people cannot help but be racists
Wed Jul 13, 2016, 12:42 PM
Jul 2016

So there's really no point in hoping white people will stop being racists.

Igel

(35,191 posts)
61. It's a truism.
Wed Jul 13, 2016, 02:51 PM
Jul 2016

Don't you know that morality, character, intellectual and emotional abilities are related to skin color? At least if you're sufficiently pale.

Meanwhile, we are fed the same definition of "white" that the idjits had back when that was widely believed. You have to be pale. Very light brown is non-white, and that's the real distinction. It used to be because of white supremacism. Now it's because of white inferiorism. It's the difference between a (photographic) negative and positive.

It took generations to fight back that kind of babble the last time.

Response to HipChick (Original post)

 

B2G

(9,766 posts)
9. Welp, that's that.
Wed Jul 13, 2016, 12:42 PM
Jul 2016

Guess we should just all retreat to our color-designated corners and hope we don't kill each other off.

 

GummyBearz

(2,931 posts)
10. We live in segregated neighborhoods, where the white areas of town..
Wed Jul 13, 2016, 12:42 PM
Jul 2016

Speak for yourself there. I am as white as they get and grew up in a 90% Mexican farm worker town. I had lots of Mexican friends, a few Mexican enemies, but none ever called me a racist.

 

GummyBearz

(2,931 posts)
30. Great, I think we share the same thoughts on the article in this OP
Wed Jul 13, 2016, 01:10 PM
Jul 2016

This is a total tangent but I have a vivid memory burned into my mind when a couple bullies started to pick a fight with me as I was playing catch with a buddy. Everyone but me was Mexican and I guess the bullies thought my buddy would let them whoop my ass since he was Mexican as well. But no way. My buddy came charging over, picked one up, and body slammed him so hard he bounced off the pavement. The other one just ran away. I was all bloody and my buddy just said "I don't think they will mess with you anymore."

It's a stupid story from 20 years ago but from that day on I knew race wasn't the defining human characteristic. Being a decent human and friendship matter. We are all people, who gives a crap what color our skin is? We are all in this together and we should help each other whenever we can.

edit: tried to be more eloquent

dmr

(28,321 posts)
121. It wasn't a stupid story. It was a good one.
Thu Jul 14, 2016, 04:28 AM
Jul 2016

In your case, friendship won. For you and your friend, race wasn't even a factor. That's the beautiful part of your story.

I didn't read much of the OP, but my belief system is to treat others as I would like to be treated.

I also believe in standing up for others being mistreated, or standing against and speaking up to the inflicters.

I won't stand for it.

It's about right and wrong.


Blanks

(4,835 posts)
156. We establish relationships based on those around us...
Thu Jul 14, 2016, 09:30 PM
Jul 2016

There's a lot of talk about how "racism is taught". I don't believe that. Just like in your story we break up into 'us' and 'them', we defend our territory against 'them' and 'us' doesn't necessarily form along racial lines, but rather those we are familiar with.

The military takes people from all backgrounds and makes a team out of them to take on other teams (also from varying backgrounds).

We aren't taught to be racist, we have a natural instinct to protect 'ours'. Too often we are broken up by race, and that is why we APPEAR to favor folks of our same race, but it's typically because of physical proximity and not necessarily based on similar appearance.

Good story by the way.

 

Marr

(20,317 posts)
48. Hey, same here.
Wed Jul 13, 2016, 02:04 PM
Jul 2016

I think I had one white friend in school.

Never realized I had racism oozing out of my pores though. Thank god I have a few pampered, college-going suburbanites to explain my privilege and racism to me.

 

TipTok

(2,474 posts)
123. Attention and relevence....
Thu Jul 14, 2016, 04:44 AM
Jul 2016

How can you teach classes on the theory of racial patriarchy and gender heteronormativity if you don't make the news every now and again?

 

R. Daneel Olivaw

(12,606 posts)
73. Which makes my statement no less valid.
Wed Jul 13, 2016, 03:33 PM
Jul 2016

It's something I would expect to come from the mouth of Limbaugh.

Exilednight

(9,359 posts)
65. I'm being honest. I worked for this one guy who swore up and
Wed Jul 13, 2016, 03:01 PM
Jul 2016

Down he wasn't racist towards Hispanics since his wife was Mexican, but every other word from his mouth was spic this and spic that. I really believe that marrying a woman of Hispanic origin gave him a form of freedom.

 

Bradical79

(4,490 posts)
77. Same with a co-worker whose wife was from the Phillipines
Wed Jul 13, 2016, 03:49 PM
Jul 2016

It's like the next step up of using your black friend as a Trump card to say racist shit.

Donald Ian Rankin

(13,598 posts)
13. I'm betting he also belongs to the "racism means racism by white people" school too?
Wed Jul 13, 2016, 12:46 PM
Jul 2016

Putting those two ideas together, and you observe that the word "racist" has just become a synonym for "white", and can be discarded from the language altogether.

Dreamer Tatum

(10,926 posts)
17. Guessing the author is a SJW who uses "racist" and "privilege" like articles of speech.
Wed Jul 13, 2016, 12:57 PM
Jul 2016

What a bunch of bullshit.
 

Old Codger

(4,205 posts)
20. Speak for yourself
Wed Jul 13, 2016, 12:58 PM
Jul 2016

You can be a racist as you choose but that doesn't mean all of the rest of us are ...your handle is wrong you are not all that "hip"

 

cpwm17

(3,829 posts)
21. "Racism comes out of our pores as white people. It's the way that we are."
Wed Jul 13, 2016, 12:59 PM
Jul 2016


She should only speak for herself.

The2ndWheel

(7,947 posts)
40. I wonder what, if anything, comes out of the pores of black or asian people?
Wed Jul 13, 2016, 01:29 PM
Jul 2016

It has to be something, because otherwise white people are quite special.

Lyric

(12,675 posts)
133. Agreed. Japan is possibly the most racist place on earth.
Thu Jul 14, 2016, 08:12 AM
Jul 2016

My cousin was stationed there when he was in the service, and there are businesses where non-Japanese people are not allowed to go. And I don't just mean non-Asians, because Chinese people and Korean people are also banned. Segregation is legal in Japan.

Americans of all colors are practically singing kumbaya and holding hands compared to Japan. And they are not the only Asian nation to have that mindset and culture. Just the most offensive, since they are a first world democracy and ought to know better.

 

Doctor_J

(36,392 posts)
24. It is amazing what gets hidden and what is allowed to stand at DU
Wed Jul 13, 2016, 01:01 PM
Jul 2016

And of course what sort of absolute filth some DUers believe.

 

R. Daneel Olivaw

(12,606 posts)
43. I guess it depends if...
Wed Jul 13, 2016, 01:34 PM
Jul 2016

• the particular post was alerted on,

• Whether the poster has protected status,

• Whether the jury was/is sympathetic (aka buddies) of said poster.

The jury system is still a joke.

PersonNumber503602

(1,134 posts)
161. You would want to hide this?
Thu Jul 14, 2016, 10:13 PM
Jul 2016

Maybe I am naive, but I think openly discussing these sorts of ideas is for the better in the long run. It allows less than stellar ideas to be taken apart and perhaps refined. I would only be annoyed if criticism of the ideas expressed were being censored.

Chemisse

(30,793 posts)
25. Is this 'racist gene' close to the one that determines skin pigmentation?
Wed Jul 13, 2016, 01:03 PM
Jul 2016

"Racism comes out of our pores as white people. It's the way that we are."

LiberalLovinLug

(14,153 posts)
44. I didn't get through the whole video, but it makes a good point
Wed Jul 13, 2016, 01:39 PM
Jul 2016

I think there are actual racists. That go out of their way to show their hatred to another group. Even so this is mostly from bad upbringing.

But there is another form of "racial profiling" lets say, for a large chunk of the population, OF ALL RACES, if we are honest. But its more about not being familiar with the 'other'. This OP is right in that whites grow up in a white culture surrounded by other whites, for the most part. Of course there are exceptions. But the same can be said of blacks. Many grow up in mostly black communities, and make friends based on who they grow up with and who they are most relatable with in the same way that happens in white communities.

It takes an effort to reach out, with a clean slate, once we get away from those childhood communities, and make friends with those of another race sometimes. Especially with those from mostly all white, or all black communities. And I believe it is more the fear of the unknown than racism for most of us. And we find, (I know this from personal experience) that its easier than we first thought.

Anyways, I think its more like a sliding scale. And exists in every community. But I still believe that the vast majority are not racists, in the classical term. Its quite easy to smash the stereotypes that keep us segregated once one matures by simply making an effort in having a conversation or two with the "other".

Blanks

(4,835 posts)
159. There was an attempt to use bussing...
Thu Jul 14, 2016, 09:40 PM
Jul 2016

To overcome the tendency of people to only associate with their 'type'.

I expect that if we'd have stayed with it for a couple of generations the animosity between groups would have been reduced, but since there are people who benefit from that animosity, too many folks were manipulated into opposing bussing.

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
31. The author of this article's livelihood depends upon racism's continuing existence.
Wed Jul 13, 2016, 01:10 PM
Jul 2016

So like the rest of the "all whites are racist and colorblindness is evil" brigade, it's in her interests to see as much racism as possible, everywhere.

Academic: I received my PhD in Multicultural Education from the University of Washington in Seattle in 2004. Dr. James Banks was my dissertation Chair. I earned tenure at Westfield State University in 2014. I have taught courses in Multicultural Teaching, Inter-group Dialogue Facilitation, Cultural Diversity & Social Justice, and Anti-Racist Education. My area of research is in Whiteness Studies and Critical Discourse Analysis, explicating how Whiteness is reproduced in everyday narratives. I am a two-time winner of the Student’s Choice Award for Educator of the Year. I resigned my position at Westfield State and am currently serving as Lecturer at the University of Washington. My work on White Fragility has been featured in Salon, NPR, Slate, Alternet and The Seattle Times.

Professional: I am Director of Equity for Sound Generations, Seattle/King County. I have been a consultant and trainer for over 20 years on issues of racial and social justice. I was appointed to co-design, develop and deliver the City of Seattle’s Race and Social Justice Initiative Anti-Racism training. I have worked with a wide-range of organizations including private, non-profit, and governmental.

http://robindiangelo.com/about-me/

Igel

(35,191 posts)
63. If "Whiteness Studies" were truly parallel to "Black Studies"
Wed Jul 13, 2016, 02:56 PM
Jul 2016

then one of two things would happen.

The "Whiteness Studies" professors would be pilloried as absurdly ethnocentric and racist, or the "Black Studies" professors would all be declared to be Clarence "Uncle" Thomases and pilloried for betraying their race and their "real" culture.

Not that there's any necessary connection between culture and race. That's been a liberal and progressive lynchpin for a few generations now.

okasha

(11,573 posts)
110. "Whiteness Studies?"
Wed Jul 13, 2016, 08:17 PM
Jul 2016

Jayzus.

The whole damn curriculum when I was an undergraduate could have been described as "White Studies." But studying works made by whites--almost all white men, by the way--is different from studying the condition of being born with pale skin and making sweeping moral and ethical assumptions based on a person's quantity of melanin.

Maybe a few NDN friends and I should get together and invent a field of "Redness Studies."

 

Doctor_J

(36,392 posts)
163. I believe you nailed it. her entire livelihood depends on promoting racism.
Thu Jul 14, 2016, 11:39 PM
Jul 2016

I'm glad I decided to be a mathematics professor. we have centuries of facts to present, instead of nutty opinion. our classes have names like Differential Equations and Abstract Algebra insread of Intergroup Dialogue Facilitation.

bigotry is a hot commodity right now.

The2ndWheel

(7,947 posts)
32. Wow, from birth. Why not conception?
Wed Jul 13, 2016, 01:10 PM
Jul 2016

That entire thing seems to be racist. If we're going by the definition of racism:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/racism

a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race


I guess white people are special in some way though, right? Inherently special too. That's something to hang a hat on at least. White pores do some magical things.

Nuclear Unicorn

(19,497 posts)
128. "Wow, from birth. Why not conception?"
Thu Jul 14, 2016, 07:58 AM
Jul 2016

I suppose it could be argued they come into this world white.

I'm going to get a hide for this, aren't I?

romanic

(2,841 posts)
34. What in white guilt hell???
Wed Jul 13, 2016, 01:13 PM
Jul 2016

That last comment in partcular is just bizzare. Racism is something that's taught, not biological. Author is clearly an academic nutjob.

sarisataka

(18,197 posts)
35. Well if a person is born racist
Wed Jul 13, 2016, 01:13 PM
Jul 2016

then that is something beyond their control. It is simply part of their nature and trying to change it is futile.

A similar case would be homosexuality...

 

B2G

(9,766 posts)
42. Someone needs to wipe the racism off of his brow.
Wed Jul 13, 2016, 01:33 PM
Jul 2016

And here I thought it was just a hot day. Silly me.

pansypoo53219

(20,906 posts)
47. my 1st grade school on the edge of the core was still pretty white, but i had a black friend on my
Wed Jul 13, 2016, 02:03 PM
Jul 2016

block, then i went to an integrated grade school + most of my friends were black, NOT the white girls.

kimbutgar

(20,871 posts)
54. I work with kids and I can attest racism is taught
Wed Jul 13, 2016, 02:22 PM
Jul 2016

Children who are taught not to hate don't care about the color of the skin of the kid they like to play with.

I worked this past school year in a special day class. We got a new student this delightful little black girl. The only white boy in the class immediately hatched onto her and they became buddies. He didn't see her color but that she was this cute little girl with an outgoing personally who had learning disability issues.

Sadly, I suspect in a few years he will get it she is different race then him but I really liked seeing them playing together.

gollygee

(22,336 posts)
137. Unfortunately, our society teaches racism by default
Thu Jul 14, 2016, 08:34 AM
Jul 2016

Or at least it teaches racial superiority to some people and racial oppression to others. It isn't something people have to intentionally teach kids. Our society teaches it. We have to intentionally teach them good, not simply refrain from teaching bad.

radical noodle

(7,990 posts)
158. I was in junior high before I knew some people didn't see black and white as the same
Thu Jul 14, 2016, 09:39 PM
Jul 2016

It took the Civil Rights Movement to show me that black people were not always accepted. There were both black and white kids in my school. If anyone treated the black kids differently I was totally unaware of it. My parents never taught me to hate or think anyone was beneath me (although I didn't much care for a redhead who was mean to me). It was quite a shock when I realized that there was even something called racism, let alone how prevalent it was. Perhaps being unaware as a child is a form of racism, I don't know. But I do know that it had to hit me in the face in the news and current events in history class to even consider such a thing was possible.

I agree with you kimbutgar, I will never believe that racism is biological. It's learned from someone/somewhere.

whatthehey

(3,660 posts)
58. Well, not quite
Wed Jul 13, 2016, 02:41 PM
Jul 2016

Without parsing racism out of all meaningful definition this is silly. Sure if you redefine racism to mean participation in a majoritarian society which fails to engineer itself so minorities have absolutely proportional access, opportunity and success at every single level in every single way then yep all US whites are, for a few years more at least, racist. Only an imbecile would deny white skin, cet. par., conveys advantages in our society.

Hell it's even probably true that the vast majority of whites have inherent subconscious prejudices that fit the more typical definition of racism. I do. I'm on a conscious level perfectly comfortable with and equitably disposed towards folks of all races but I'll be honest when I see a bright metallic green early 90s Crown Vic on 24" chrome wheels with a 120 decibel bass-heavy rap theme tune at 1am I expect the driver to be a black male. It's prejudice both in etymological and social terms. I don't think any worse of that man than I do his white counterpart in a jacked up diesel beater truck with 5 spotlights and a peeing decal on the back window next to the NRA sticker. In fact, with another kind of prejudice, I instinctively think equally poorly of both of them without further evidence. I know either could be PhD cancer researchers who volunteer at the local hospice and donate 50% of their income to charity, but I presume they are not.

Do most people share prejudices like this? I think so. Yours might be against heavily made-up middle aged bleach blondes in designer clothes and Mercedes convertibles, or Arabic men in large groups at outdoor festivals, or hell bearded fat tattooed guys like me, but the chances are there's at least some hidden racial component. Jesse Jackson spoke for many white and Asian and Hispanic people too about that dark alley (although in all honesty not me; demeanor and age are far more likely to raise my concern than race in dark alleys). Is that prejudice or racism? If there is a great difference and a random white man is racist for having the exact same thoughts as Jackson, who is merely prejudiced, then we are torturing language beyond meaning and setting up an irrevocable racial divide about which nothing can ever be done to improve matters. If instead we say Jackson despite his success and influence is likely himself to cause more fear in that alley than a random white man because society burdens black men with racist stereotypes conveyed to all through media, memes, socialization and even education but that both JJ and RWM are merely similarly prejudiced as individuals, at least we have somewhere to begin dealing with the issue.

A majority white society in power and influence means whites need to drive the societal changes to stop burdening blacks with racist stereotypes of course, but it doesn't set up an impossible task of "abandon all prejudice despite your pattern-seeking brain, as long as you are white but it's ok for everyone else" which is the only solution to the silly strawman in this article. I don't have to think that blingy Crown Vic is equally likely to be driven by a septuagenarian Boston Brahmin to stop accepting racist jokes told in my company or avoiding the table next to the group of young black men at a restaurant. Racism will lessen when whites are less willing to treat blacks as "the other" even passively, not when we magically change our white pores oozing the stuff.

angrychair

(8,592 posts)
59. Ridiculous nonsense
Wed Jul 13, 2016, 02:42 PM
Jul 2016

For someone that claims such very specific skills I find her knowledge and discourse poorly conceived and unconvincing.

She states:

My area of research is in Whiteness Studies and Critical Discourse Analysis, explicating how Whiteness is reproduced in everyday narratives


"Critical Discourse Analysis"?? Wrote this rambling and nonsensical garbage? The premise is unsubstantiated drivel with no supported analysis.

It is fringe hyperbole by a complete charlatan.

maxsolomon

(32,975 posts)
66. So, you can be a good person and be a racist, as well?
Wed Jul 13, 2016, 03:02 PM
Jul 2016

she's making a distinction without a difference.

no one wants to be called a racist except white supremacists.

agnostic102

(198 posts)
67. idiots
Wed Jul 13, 2016, 03:05 PM
Jul 2016

like her is why we cant have discussions like this. This is why iv always admired obama so much. no matter how tough things get. hes still the adult in the room. Always speaks eloquently without saying all white people are racist that they have it coming out of there pours. is just so damn insulting and stupid.

haele

(12,581 posts)
69. The point about social segregation is true, no matter what one thinks about the thesis.
Wed Jul 13, 2016, 03:19 PM
Jul 2016

The social media "normal" that everyone is exposed to is still overwhelmingly Eurocentric (for lack of a better term). Doesn't matter what race you are as a child, what neighborhood you live in, you still "see" the normal majority as being significantly white in the media.
The percentage of minority actors, models, talking heads, etc, that is presented would leave a foreigner to believe that the US population is between 75 - 80% white, when in actuality, it's only 30% at best. That "middle class", professional and upper class adults - and retirees who can afford to live in comfort - are 90% white.

That in itself could encourage a soft racism in someone who isn't raised to question what is presented to them. Like the average person who is too busy trying to make a living for themselves to do more than just accept face value of what they see, then go on from there. If one doesn't have the time and access to resources to be able question and research the truth, it's really easy to sell garbage that provides immediate personal gratification, no matter how weak or toxic those themes and memes are in real life.

Haele

haele

(12,581 posts)
94. Finger slip. 60% - and that approximation includes "White Hispanics" and many Middle Easterners -
Wed Jul 13, 2016, 04:33 PM
Jul 2016

- people from Spanish-speaking/Spanish settled countries that don't identify either as Latino or as Asian (i.e. Filipinos) - and I don't understand why that is a separate category as this is purely from self-identification. It is an old Spanish-Colonial/Mexican practice from when class was strictly enforced - and was thrown out the window after the treaty of Guadalupe-Hidalgo and the US took over wide swaths of Northern Mexico. "White" Mexicans became Hispanics, same as the Mestizos and Indios they looked down on.

The other issue is what is socially considered "white" in the Media or (to put it delicately) in many social settings - which is the Eurocentric "white" person.

This is the media conceit that we are exposed to, where a "normal" person has a fair complexion, more angular features, and relatively straight or "good" hair. The country-club/old-boy network member.
Everyone else that would be considered white through the Census is labeled by the media as "ethnic", whether they self-identify as white, mixed, or by the culture they were raised in.

And that is the subtle racism that we as a society in this country are still exposed to from birth.

Again, you don't have to agree with the premise in the OP - that "every white person is inherently racist" - to recognize there is subtle racism that is being perpetuated in US media to promote a vision of preferred normalcy that is specifically directed to those who consider themselves "white" or Eurocentric.

When I start seeing at least 40% of my generally targeted media including people who are either ethic whites or POCs as normal or in a position of social privilege (i.e., the hero or heroine) then I'll agree we are getting to post-racial and are all "equal".

Haele

 

AntiBank

(1,339 posts)
88. the white population of the US is 77.35% not 30. This includes white
Wed Jul 13, 2016, 04:17 PM
Jul 2016

Hispanics like Charlie Sheen, etc.

haele

(12,581 posts)
95. Media Identification break down tends white vs "white ethnic" and other minorities.
Wed Jul 13, 2016, 04:56 PM
Jul 2016

Media Identification is not the same as Census data - which based still on self-identification.

Agents, writers, producers, etc will tell you there's a version of white in the media that is not the same as white in the Census. And it's the media where most people who don't live in more metropolitan settings get their idea of race and potentially develop racial biases.

Charlie Sheen is considered a White actor, not White-Hispanic actor to the average movie goer. No matter what he put down on the census survey.
Emilio Estevez is considered a Hispanic actor, not a White-Hispanic actor to the average movie goer. No matter what he put down on the census survey.

The perception of whiteness as normalcy in the media that is feeding propaganda to the country is a reality to be addressed, whether or not the actors that are playing a part are - per the Census - white, partially white or one of the recognized minorities.

Haele

ismnotwasm

(41,916 posts)
70. K&R
Wed Jul 13, 2016, 03:23 PM
Jul 2016

Whites of good intention and good heart don't want to be racist--which is why it's so difficult to discuss racism honestly. Personally, I'd rather agree with this analysis and start rooting out racism in myself whenever it rears its head. It take uncomfortable self analysis, but it's worth it.

I was raised by a racist--I know what the overt signs and symptoms are, it's the deep down shit that needs exposure to sunlight.

loyalsister

(13,390 posts)
89. Exactly!
Wed Jul 13, 2016, 04:17 PM
Jul 2016

Not questioning the benefits of whiteness and personal defensivesness combined with self congratulatory, "my best friends, wife, children etc are black" is the predictable response that validates this article.

"I was raised by a racist--I know what the overt signs and symptoms are, it's the deep down shit that needs exposure to sunlight."

That reflects the sentiment regarding overt racism in the south vs. the more subtle racism in the north. We have a lot of work to do in overturning stones and pulling back curtains to reveal the subtle racism that has far reaching effects.

HipChick

(25,485 posts)
104. great honesty..uncomfortable self analysis
Wed Jul 13, 2016, 06:47 PM
Jul 2016

Size of this thread and response seems to point towards that..

yawnmaster

(2,812 posts)
76. One might as well argue that racism is generally a human trait...
Wed Jul 13, 2016, 03:48 PM
Jul 2016

I generally have problems with broad generalizations, and this one is a wide one.

 

cpwm17

(3,829 posts)
97. Yes, white people suck for not admitting that all white people suck.
Wed Jul 13, 2016, 05:03 PM
Jul 2016

It's nice that you can recognize how bad that all white people suck.

 

cpwm17

(3,829 posts)
142. Self awareness is a virtue.
Thu Jul 14, 2016, 01:20 PM
Jul 2016

You can get together with Guiliani to figure out which race is superior, as you have much in common:



You can get back to us with your results.

Response to giftedgirl77 (Reply #80)

Else You Are Mad

(3,040 posts)
83. This seems to me like someone is trying to legitimize their own racist tendencies...
Wed Jul 13, 2016, 04:00 PM
Jul 2016

...by saying everyone is racist. No, not every white person is racist.

 

AntiBank

(1,339 posts)
85. this is the type of claptrap that can truly be categorically called a pure shitstir
Wed Jul 13, 2016, 04:01 PM
Jul 2016

I truly fail to see what possible purpose it serves being on the board other than to get people on all sides enraged, all sides divided. This quackademic is also a self-interested and thus compromised actor who comes to the table with unclean hands and motives, as the raison d'etre for her "career" depends on the validity of her laughable suppositions.

de rec

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
90. All white people are racist? Literally every single white person is a racist?
Wed Jul 13, 2016, 04:18 PM
Jul 2016

I grew up in a small town where the majority of the people were French speaking descendants of French immigrants. About 20% of the town was First Peoples, (Cri tribe). Similarly, about 20-25% of my relatives, including my grandmother, are Cri. Does that make me white, or mixed? And if mixed, (or métis, as we say), does that make me 75% racist and 25% non-racist?

This says more about the author than it does about the subject.

Firebrand Gary

(5,044 posts)
93. How does one even respond to something like think.
Wed Jul 13, 2016, 04:25 PM
Jul 2016

I almost wrote about my upbringing, but it's not worth my time. What garbage!

 

fasttense

(17,301 posts)
103. This makes no sense
Wed Jul 13, 2016, 06:36 PM
Jul 2016

I was expecting information on white privilege but instead this. It just sounds silly.

Monk06

(7,675 posts)
105. Why isn't this being posted in Race and Ethnicity The forums there are specifically dedicated to
Wed Jul 13, 2016, 06:49 PM
Jul 2016

this topic

Or maybe race spainin just comes up in General in order to generate clicks.

JanMichael

(24,846 posts)
107. I am not in any mood to get into a tit for tat but I agree with the premise.
Wed Jul 13, 2016, 07:25 PM
Jul 2016

"Whites are taught to see their perspectives as objective and representative of reality
(McIntosh, 1988). The belief in objectivity, coupled with positioning white
people as outside of culture (and thus the norm for humanity), allows whites to
view themselves as universal humans who can represent all of human experience.
This is evidenced through an unracialized identity or location, which functions
as a kind of blindness; an inability to think about Whiteness as an identity or as a
“state” of being that would or could have an impact on one’s life. In this position,
Whiteness is not recognized or named by white people, and a universal reference
point is assumed. White people are just people. Within this construction, whites
can represent humanity, while people of color, who are never just people but always
most particularly black people, Asian people, etc., can only represent their
own racialized experiences (Dyer, 1992)."

This (the blindness thing - no impact on me) is reflected in this thread over and over again.

"universalism functions to deny the significance of race and the advantages of being white. Further, universalism assumes that whites and people of color have the same realities, the same experiences in the same contexts (i.e. I feel comfortable in this majority white classroom, so you must too), the same responses from others, and assumes that the same doors are open to all. Acknowledging racism as a system of privilege conferred on whites challenges claims to universalism."

It a meritocracy now - same doors open to all - look at our President!...riiiight.

"a self-perpetuating sense of entitlement because many whites believe their financial and professional successes are the result of their own efforts while ignoring the fact of white privilege."

I know many of mine are.

I'm almost 50, white, and have a career not a job. I got mad once in college when I heard they were using quotas. Oh noes I said. I'm being frozen out to "other people" that my middling slack assed grades were equal to (probably worse) but they will get the spot in that BA program I like (but never took) because of race. Thank gawd I got over that bullshit.

 

lumberjack_jeff

(33,224 posts)
108. Okey dokey.
Wed Jul 13, 2016, 07:34 PM
Jul 2016

What's the point of all the consciousness-raising then? Seems like there are more productive uses of people's time than trying to fix me.

The longer I'm exposed to this rhetoric, I become less fragile and more indifferent.

Skinner

(63,645 posts)
112. None of us wants to admit that we might be racist.
Wed Jul 13, 2016, 08:35 PM
Jul 2016

No, not like klan racist. Or even like Republican nominee racist. We know that those people are REALLY racist, and we aren't like them.

But are we maybe kinda racist?

I think our president said it pretty well earlier this week. I bolded the relevant part...

But America, we know that bias remains. We know it, whether you are black, or white, or Hispanic, or Asian, or native American, or of Middle Eastern descent, we have all seen this bigotry in our own lives at some point. We’ve heard it at times in our own homes. If we’re honest, perhaps we’ve heard prejudice in our own heads and felt it in our own hearts. We know that. And while some suffer far more under racism’s burden, some feel to a far greater extent discrimination’s stain. Although most of us do our best to guard against it and teach our children better, none of us is entirely innocent. No institution is entirely immune, and that includes our police departments. We know this.

I understand why people are pushing back so hard against the provocative language in the OP. Surely nobody on a liberal message board has racism coming out of our pores. Right?

But I think a little self-reflection might not be a terrible thing. President Obama wondered aloud what we might see in our own heads and hearts if we are honest with ourselves. We might not want to admit it to everyone else, but can we be honest with ourselves?

Bucky

(53,793 posts)
115. I feel like the term "racist" has been watered down by overuse
Wed Jul 13, 2016, 08:51 PM
Jul 2016

If as many people were racist as are accused of being racist, then there'd be very little hope for social reconciliation. It has a condemnatory judgmental term, toxic, and an indictment of character. It is not used as a neutral descriptor. It doesn't promote reform or reconciliation.

It's a phrase that builds walls of noncommunication and calcifies racial identity and social judgmentalism, when we need to build bridges between the rainbows of human diversity in our country. Calling people racist does not work to reduce real systemic racial discrimination in our society.

At the risk of sounding like Frank Luntz, I think we'd do well a progressive movement if we found more accurate and more effective nomenclature to highlight the problems of inequality, discrimination, lack of opportunity, and police violence in the country. If I condemn someone's character, I'm not going to win him over to my side. If I educate him and help him see the common cause we have in creating a true opportunity society, I have chance of finding a point of agreement.

There's enough accusations flying around in our public debates. They might give the accusing party a nice little endorphin charge to do the superior dance. But self stroking hormones don't really constitute social progress.

Skinner

(63,645 posts)
117. I think what you say is largely true.
Wed Jul 13, 2016, 09:09 PM
Jul 2016

This thread is a pretty good example of what happens when that word comes out. This is a community of liberals but even we aren't receptive to this message. So as a messaging strategy it doesn't seem like people want to hear it.

I tend to think President Obama's framing is more effective. Anthough I don't think many people want to hear it said that way either.

JanMichael

(24,846 posts)
118. You are correct. The reason they don't want to hear it is that fragility.
Wed Jul 13, 2016, 09:13 PM
Jul 2016

They only want it couched in a sweet non threatening way that they want to hear. Which sadly doesn't do much good or at least I do not think it does.

The reactions on this thread are telling and play right into the OP premise.

HipChick

(25,485 posts)
130. In comparison President Obama's framing is much more effective
Thu Jul 14, 2016, 08:05 AM
Jul 2016

but some folks only heard what they wanted to there also..

HipChick

(25,485 posts)
127. Agree...If we’re honest, perhaps we’ve heard prejudice in our own heads and felt it in our own heart
Thu Jul 14, 2016, 07:43 AM
Jul 2016

Perfect response as to why it so hard to discuss race...a little self-reflection might not be a terrible thing

Lyric

(12,675 posts)
135. I can admit to those feelings sometimes.
Thu Jul 14, 2016, 08:27 AM
Jul 2016

I have always noticed that the truth of your feelings about race cannot be found in your interactions with people you know...people who are familiar. Rather, it is wise to consider how you feel when approached by people you DON'T know.

I have blood family members who are biracial, both black and Latino. To me, they are just my family. But strangers? I am a disabled, low-income white woman. If a young black man dressed in the clothing of "urban culture" approaches me, I always feel nervous. I can't control it. I don't ever let it show, and I force myself to overcome it and be polite and friendly, but that initial fear reaction is still there. I can't explain it, other than that I have some deep seated fear that someone who looks like that hates me and might hurt me, and I powerless to defend myself.

I feel the same fear when I see men of ANY race dressed in "urban culture" clothing, blasting loud rap music with violent lyrics. Even white men. But it is always worst with men of color...black or Latino or even Asian. I feel my own weakness and vulnerability so much more, in those moments.

Black men dressed like white professionals don't bother me at all. For example, black lawyer or a black man in a polo shirt and khakis. I don't feel that fear. I think it's a strange combination of racism and fear of an alien culture.

As I said, I suppress these reactions and I KNOW that I am wrong to feel them. I never act on them. I force myself to NOT push the lock button on the car door just because a young black man walks by. But the urge is there.

I feel incredibly ashamed of it. I have never really talked about it before. But I think this is the kind of hidden racism that the article is talking about. The kind you don't ever want to admit to anyone, not even to yourself, because you feel so guilty and ashamed of it

I wish I knew how to overcome it.

I apologize to my PoC DU friends for not being better than this. It is incredibly difficult to admit these feelings and I feel very ashamed at the moment. It is not your job to fix me or make me feel better. But I am sorry, nonetheless.

Lyric

(12,675 posts)
146. I think that these social illnesses cannot be overcome and healed
Thu Jul 14, 2016, 04:46 PM
Jul 2016

without honesty. Even when it's embarrassing and incriminating.

You can't heal a defect in your psychological composition if you don't even acknowledge that it's there. That's really the first step, right? Yes, it's a terrible thing to feel like I am racist, but that awful feeling is nothing at all compared to how people of color feel when they are victimized over and over again because of their race. We cannot even begin to tackle the enormity of "ending racism" until we can at least admit that it exists, even in people who are staunch liberals and political allies to the black community.

I can say these shameful things about myself, and still acknowledge that I am not the one anybody should pity. We are all victims, but not of equal danger. I am in danger of being shamed and thought badly of. People of color are in danger of being murdered for merely existing. All lives matter, yes? But not all lives are in danger. All houses matter too, but you concentrate on saving the ones that are on fire, not the ones that are safely across town from any danger.

So I don't feel particularly courageous. Walking the street as a young black man is courageous. Driving while black is courageous. I'm just a white lady on a message board, trying to be an honest friend to people who deserve better than me.

I appreciate the words of kindness though.

 

lumberjack_jeff

(33,224 posts)
144. Not all stereotype is racism.
Thu Jul 14, 2016, 01:31 PM
Jul 2016

Talk to a white silicon valley HR manager interviewing candidates of asian descent.

I agree with others: it's been watered down to meaninglessness through overuse. We all have stereotypes (and sometimes biases), and I would argue that we progressives absolutely don't have any high ground in that regard.

Dogma: Negative stereotypes about african americans are racism. Negative stereotypes of men in general and white men in particular are progressive policy.

Sure, we can all improve. I work daily with people who challenge my unconscious stereotypes, and that process helps me to change them.

Racism? We as a community long ago decided that dictionaries are mansplaining nonsense, so I'll just say that although I try to confront my conscious or unconscious stereotype of african americans as often good athletes and asian americans as often good students, I wouldn't call this racist, because race is not determinative of anything at the individual level. This may come as a surprise to some here, but you can't even predict very much of my behavior, faults or attributes because I'm a straight white guy.

Yo_Mama

(8,303 posts)
116. Or maybe this is wrong. For example, I very much doubt that most white persons
Wed Jul 13, 2016, 08:55 PM
Jul 2016

married to POC, or who have black children/family members are racist.

What is written here is akin to writing that all children who suffer sexual abuse grow up to be abusers/mentally ill adults. And that is not true either.

What IS true is that racial bigotry, in our society, has been an unhealthy abusive social framework. Some have confronted it and don't participate (some come from other cultures and don't even understand it), and some are still struggling with it.

I don't think the sentiments expressed are helpful, and I don't think they are accurate.

There are a lot of white people who didn't grow up in mostly white areas and don't live in segregated neighborhoods and don't socialize with just whites. A LOT.

Vinca

(50,168 posts)
129. This is ridiculous, but according to the person's theory a black person would also have to be
Thu Jul 14, 2016, 08:01 AM
Jul 2016

considered a racist since they grow up in similar circumstances surrounded by friends and family of their own race.

gollygee

(22,336 posts)
132. That's not how it works
Thu Jul 14, 2016, 08:08 AM
Jul 2016

According to the people who ran the anti-racism training I went to, white people in our society learn an internalized racial superiority, due to messages from society, including the media. People of color on the other hand learn an internalized racial oppression from the same sources.

The ultimate message society gives is one of white supremacy. That message affects white people by teaching us we're superior, but it affects people of color by teaching them they're inferior. The lesson is to fight against our society's white supremacy, not to pretend these issues don't exist.

Bok_Tukalo

(4,322 posts)
139. So white people are inferior? I think there's a word for believing one race is inferior to another.
Thu Jul 14, 2016, 09:01 AM
Jul 2016

<POE>

matt819

(10,749 posts)
140. You may say "not this shit again," but it's not off base
Thu Jul 14, 2016, 10:10 AM
Jul 2016

I'm on the far side of middle age - hell, characters my age in books are referred to as seniors and made out to be crazy old farts.

I grew up - till the age of 7 - in a lower middle class neighborhood in NYC. In the early 1960s we moved because, I recall my parents observing, "the blacks" were moving in. This was before the age of gangs, crime wasn't all that big an issue at that time, as far as I know. It was all because of "the blacks." We moved to Brooklyn. No blacks in that neighborhood. Whew! That was a close call.

That's how I was brought up. If you asked my parents why they were racist, they would resent the question and wonder why you even asked it. They weren't racist. It's just, you know, "the blacks." Funny thing was that one of my friends before we moved was a black kid named Christopher. I don't have a ton of memories, but I do know that he was a friend. To a 7-year-old, that's all that matters. But we had to move because of . . . well, you know.

Now here's the funny thing. Fast forward about 10 years. Puerto Rican guy in my fraternity grew up in the same neighborhood. Turns out his family moved in after the first black in-migration. Not sure if the blacks were moving out, but, in any case, my Puerto Rican friend moved in. But they didn't stay long. The neighborhood was going down hill. The problem? The Dominicans were moving in.

And so it goes.

I haven't been back to NYC for decades, and so I don't know the racial make-up of my old neighborhood, though it often features in police shows as a dangerous, drug-ridden, crime-ridden community.

Back to the OP. I'm not going to paint any one group with a broad brush, but I have to say that I grew up, even in the lower middle class, with the ingrained notion that "the blacks" were to be avoided.

Abq_Sarah

(2,883 posts)
149. Uh-huh.
Thu Jul 14, 2016, 09:10 PM
Jul 2016

All (insert racial/ethnic group) people are (insert stereotype/accusation).

Do we suddenly tolerate that shit here?

Shankapotomus

(4,840 posts)
155. If Diangelo is correct
Thu Jul 14, 2016, 09:29 PM
Jul 2016

and segregation and isolation from other races produces racism, then wouldn't that same logic extend to all races isolated to themselves? And since whites are segregated from blacks, it follows blacks are segregated from whites. So wouldn't African Americans necessarily also be gaining their opinions from only the trajectories laid out for them and, given that they would be as equally isolated from whites, wouldn't that mean their opinions are equally suseptible to being based on ignorance?

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
169. how does calling anyone anything facilitate their personal growth? Serious question.
Fri Jul 15, 2016, 08:56 PM
Jul 2016

Maybe there are legions of people out there who walk the path to increased self-awareness because someone else goes out of their way to provoke them, but honestly? I haven't met too many.


The goose has to get itself out of the bottle.

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