BLOWBACK......

[Boxerfan]

My own opinion is that GWB / Cheney et al...are directly responsible for this latest tragedy.

They did it on purpose and the motive was profit. When PBO/ Pelosi failed to hold them accountable for even the most obvious malfeasance we sealed the deal.

One Million dead-did we think the offspring / survivors would just forget what was done to their families?. Ramifications were predicted and here we are....

Thanks Republicans!!

[bdwker]

1. Wow... thats.....amazing.

[NightWatcher]

2. Of course. They overthrew dictators who were keeping a lid on these nuts

We opened the prisons, fired the police and armies, and spilled weapons into the region.

[brush]

3. Agreed. The fired Iraqi army became ISIS, led by its generals and colonels.

[arcane1]

4. And gave all the rebuilding jobs to Halliburton, Bechtel, etc, using imported supplies and labor.

They managed to find every way to piss them off, and then did it all.

[Elmergantry]

32. Kind if like how Obama

Overthrew Khaddaffi who kept a lid on the nuts in Libya?

Or how Carter threw the Shah under the bus who was keeping a lid, or was trying to, on the nuts in Iran?

Point it, there is plenty of blame to go around.

[Jim Beard]

56. The liberal policy before was to give people their freedom.

Did we the liberals fail by wanting to give freedom to the oppressed?

[Elmergantry]

59. yes.

A lot of the "oppressed" were not interested in freedom
As we understand it in the west. Carter bush and obama
Only gave the oppressed the opportunity to do some of their own oppressing by imposing 7th century islam once they gained power.

[KingCharlemagne]

72. How did Carter throw the Shah "under the bus"? Genuinely curious what you

base this assertion on, as it seems to deny agency to the Iranian people.

[fun n serious]

76. I think we critize Obama too much

and Bush not enough.

[grossproffit]

5. When are the actual terrorists ever to blame?

[Marr]

8. Right?

Way too many liberals in this country are so scared of being called 'Islamophobic', they'd blame their own grandmothers for terrorism before they'd point at the actual terrorist, or acknowledge any of that person's own words on the topic of *why* they're killing.

[roody]

13. My grandmother did not invade Iraq.

[Skittles]

14. that's like saying all lives matter

of course the terrorists are to blame, but it was bush and cheney who poked a stick into the hornet's nest

[840high]

18. imo -now.

[JEB]

35. Never, when they are our terrorists.

W is dancing and being a goof on the bodies of a million souls. Cheney is packing another's heart around like the ghoul he is. Condi is still buying shoes and giving lectures of lies. Rummy is still sucking air. All our terrorists get away Scot free. Fuckin' A.

[Ms. Yertle]

40. Ghoul??

Maybe I'm being overly sensitive, but do you think of all transplant recipients as "ghouls," because they are all "packing around" other people's organs? there are a lot of very good people who are alive today because of the generosity of organ donors and the advances in medical science.

There is plenty to hate about Cheney, but there is no need to disparage anyone for their medical conditions.

[JEB]

61. You are absolutely correct.

That heart is the best part of Mr. Cheney.

[Darb]

45. I do not think they were born terrorists.

You seem to think they are, no?

[GeorgeGist]

50. Apparently never.

[B2G]

6. Yeah, well, that will play well here

But that's about it.

[grossproffit]

7. I don't even think it will play well here any longer. The bloom is off the rose.

[Ex Lurker]

57. Never underestimate the ability of people to contort themselves into pretzels

in order to avoid challenging their own worldview.

[6chars]

9. history doesn't stop

what do we do now?

[maxsolomon]

10. Don't overreact

ISIL is baiting the West into doing something horrific in return.

[alcibiades_mystery]

15. How long do you suppose that argument will play

It's wearing thin, you ask me.

[840high]

19. +1

[maxsolomon]

42. Probably as long as we keep Trump out of office

ISIL is being squeezed in Iraq - they are going to try and provoke elsewhere.

Its time for the Syrian War to end and Raqqa to be taken or destroyed. By whom is the question.

ISIL wants it to be "Crusaders".

[Calculating]

11. And they'll never stop

These nuts actually want Armageddon and they'll never ever, ever, ever stop killing.

[Oneironaut]

12. Most of them are stupid little boys who were sold a lie.

They believe the garbage that was packed into their head because they're naive and stupid. They think they know everything there is to know, like every other 19 year old in existence.

ISIS fighters are still human. They aren't that much different from American teenagers. They've been tricked into doing bad stuff because they have no jobs, no sense of worth, and want their lives to matter. ISIS gets recruits because they feed into base human desires (and they have the money and outreach to do it).

ISIS fighters aren't crazy. They're soldiers whose human weaknesses are being exploited by rich old men.

[B2G]

26. Dangerous little boys. Nt

[loyalsister]

44. Unfortunately positive male role models not walking around pissed

because their friends and family are dead. Thus, people with ugly intentions are able to sweep in and convince them that they can belong to something. And, they can satisfy their anger and vengeance. It's really not a very new dynamic. The fact that there is no formal state backing makes them all the more dangerous. Their numbers grow with each regime change.

[inwiththenew]

16. Wasn't France a vocal critic against the war from the very beginning?

Why do they keep getting attacked for the Iraq War that they had no part of?

[AntiBank]

29. becuase it is not the Iraq war that is driving the attacks against France (at the root levels)

France has a long history of fucking about in Islamic areas (see Algeria for instance), they have millions of Muslims slammed into ghettos with horrid chances for good jobs and also big chances of becoming socially alienated, they have a very large number of radical clerics, the EU open borders for immigration allows systemic movement for radicals into France, they have the best chance of all the top ten western powers to elect a fascist government, thus really moving into a hot war internally, they are the most likely of the big guns to leave to leave NATO, they are a soft target, etc etc etc.

[tblue37]

30. Maybe b/c ofAlgeria. A lot of bad blood from their history, and antagonists from the war settled

in France after the war. Also, immigrants have not been fully integrated into French society--or economy. Also, France has been almost aggressively secular since the French Revolution. (They have laws against wearing religious symbols in public schools, for example.) They have a long tradition of aggressively satirizing religion, including Islam, (cf. Charlie Hebdo). And they are still an active presence in their former colonies in Africa and the Near East, many of which have a predominantly Islamic population.

Here is a link to a Time article that addresses your question:

http://time.com/3660002/france-muslim-africa-organized-religion/

SNIP

First, France has been more closely engaged with the Muslim world longer than any other Western country. Since 1830, when it conquered Algeria, it has seen much of Muslim Africa as its own backyard. And after World War I, France took control of Syria and Lebanon as well. Many French settled in North Africa, and after World War II, many North Africans came to France to work in new factories, most settling in poor areas in Paris, Lyon, and the industrialized north. In the post-industrial era, factories were shut down but the settlers stayed. And it is their children and grandchildren who in 2005 exploded in rage over their exclusion from French society. The 1995 movie La Haine showed this rage before the fact—and also made clear that these explosions had nothing to with religion.

SNIP

Second, the French Republic has nourished a sense of combat with the Church—which for some means with religion of any sort. If in the 19th century, the Church retained its hold on young minds through its monopoly of primary schools, by the end of that century the state had built a secular and free system of schools. Thereafter, the Dreyfus affair pitted an openly anti-Semitic Catholic establishment against pro-Republican intellectuals, Vichy gave powers to anti-Jewish French officials, and after the war schools continued to be the focal point, a microcosm, of the battle between religious and secularist camps.

[GeorgeGist]

51. Sometimes fires spread.

[RiverNoord]

17. Um.. yeah, that's way past 'opinion' at this point. It's obvious.

Can't blame Bush too much - he was an idiot, and easily manipulated.

Cheney, Rumsfeld and the rest of the PNAC crowd did this thing, and we failed to stop them.

[George II]

20. Yeah, it was all Obama's and Pelosi's fault, right?

[GeorgeGist]

52. but mostly Eric Holder.

[Akamai]

21. You bet -- a great podcast posting on "This Is Hell" The current issue, "Into the spiral" is very,

very informative, about how the Bush debacle brought about the unraveling of the middle east, and how we now have war forever.

Very thoughtful and searing podcast episode.

Also, what crap about showing this stuff breathlessly on tv. Hartmann calls it "terrorism porn" and I agree.

This is exactly what terrorists want. We have to ignore this stuff as the Israelis have learned to do many years ago.

[Wednesdays]

37. Well, not "ignore," but

treat it as a criminal act rather than an act of war.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

38. Xi Jinping reminds me of Geroge "W" Bush

two "Princelings" of different races...

[PrideofJefferson]

22. East versus West

These attacks are an attack on Western culture and enlightenment values. If we give in we go backwards. Just like the Charleston terrorist killer these people want to pull civilization backwards to where their mind set rests. If our civilization is move forward this fact needs to be recognized.

[choie]

34. The Charleston killer wasn't Muslim

Unless we understand what's behind these acts of terrorism, the carnage will continue. Saying it's a culture of civilization is simplistic and does nothing to solve the problem. We in the West perpetrate our own type of terror.

[PrideofJefferson]

36. The terrorist in Charleston

Wanted to move our civilization backwards. For all its faults western civilization recognizes the rights of minorities. We struggle but it is a forward moving cause. When a culture that is propped up by an Islamic philosophy that doesn't honor the rights of women, LGTBQ folks, apostates, minorities, etc, starts to infringe on a culture that does we need to at least recognize that fact. And I know that our culture has plenty of room for improvement but humanity's best bet is still western culture.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

39. another haunted child, no matter what age you are

Last edited Fri Jul 15, 2016, 05:20 AM - Edit history (6)

welcome to D.U. and the Matrix Neo...

full movie, I hope:

Some (agent Smiths) consider me a teacher. If you ever need some support from "above" simply ask for it; but never pray to a fucking satellite! And if ANYONE evokes the unholy name of President Thomas [my REAL middle name] prepare to defend the U.S. Constitution! ALL OF IT, including the Second Amendment:
"The right to keep and bear arms is protected in the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution, which reads: A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."
AND 4TH AMENDMENT! GIVE IT BACK MOTHERFUCKERS!

The Fourth Amendment of the U.S. Constitution provides, "[t]he right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly ...

[Dreamer Tatum]

23. ....so they attacked Nice. Riiiight. Nt

[mulsh]

24. Not to excuse anyone but France has been meddling in the Islamic world for a very long time.

Perhaps a review of some of the era prior and subsequent to Sykes Picot & their little cartography exercise will give us all some perspective.

As bad as today's actions are I have a feeling Islamist radicals are being routed. At least that's my hope.

[StarzGuy]

25. That's exactly what I posted on MSGOP's Facebook post.

I wrote, "Thanks war criminals Bush, Cheney and the rest of the Bush Cabal." Every time one of these attacks happens we should thank the Bush Cabal, et al.

[B2G]

27. You know what? No one else is talking about blame.

Except DU. Everyone else is talking about how to stop it.

Blame anyone you want but we had better have a fucking plan to stop it and communicate it. Because there is a vacuum right now and the election is going to be here before you know it.

[Darb]

46. What vacuum are you referring to?

I know that most nations in the world are taking part in a massive effort to combat terrorism. Of that I am certain. Your mileage may vary.

[Elmergantry]

31. As if...

Islamic terrorism only started during GWB...

[Darb]

47. Do you mean....

"radical, Islamic terrorism"?

Sounds like you might. I believe the nomenclature game is not the direction we need to be pointing. What are your thoughts?

[Elmergantry]

60. Not sure I follow.

Seems to me these attacks are being done for the sake of Islam if we are to believe what the attackers say. Hence the moniker "Islamic Terrorism". Wether it is "radical" or not depends on ones perspective I suppose.

[Darb]

62. It's terrorism all right, but....

only wingers and baggers insist upon calling it "Islamic". They kill plenty of Muslims too, more actually. So being a Muslim and a terrorist does not make what they are doing "Islamic terrorism". It makes it just like all the rest, malcontents that believe in some form of bullshit for some reason or another and decide violence is their best, or only option. It is not Islamic terrorism. It is just terrorism. Is an abortion clinic bomber ever called a "Christian terrorist"? No. That would be foolish.

[Elmergantry]

63. Well,

Most muslims are not terrorists, but most terrorists are muslims.

If the shoe fits, wear it.

Abortion clinic bombers are not called Christian terrorists because nothing in Christianity calls for attacking abortionists. Not that it stops many here from tryinh. And the bombers have never said they do it for the sake of Christianity. You don't have to be Christian to be an anti-abortion zealot.

[Darb]

64. Well,

that's a crock. They are Christians and they are terrorists, just call them what they are, at least for consistency. Terrorism takes all kinds of different forms. It is terrorizing to shock and awe a population in order to topple its leader, killing thousands upon thousands, innocents and conscripts and henchmen alike. To the average muslim on the street in the middle east, that's pretty fucking terrorizing and it comes from a "Christian" nation, the USA. Not a "Christian" nation? Well, just ask your compatriots in the "radical Islamic terrorism" front.

[Elmergantry]

65. please

Show me the lists of mass shootings where the shooter
Said they did it in the name of jesus christ. I can give you a spreadsheet of those done by those claiming it for allah

Then we can talk

[Darb]

66. Want to address shock and awe?

Then we can talk. Take off the blinders first.

[Elmergantry]

67. not done in the name of jc

Done in the name of a secular govt. We have seperation of church and state u know.

[Darb]

68. I am sure that the arabs see it the same way.

Fucking derrrrrrr.

[Elmergantry]

69. irrelevant

It wasnt christian terrorism no matter what they or u want it to be. Christian terrorism is an ixymoron

[Darb]

70. I am not saying it was Christian terrorism,

I am saying that you are the same as the baggers with your insistence upon labeling crazy mideastern terrorists with the name of a religion that they profess to believe in. The uber religious often site their beliefs for their atrocities. It is more about fundamentalism than anything else. Your opinion is more than simplistic, you are trying to deflect away from the point with your "christian terrorism" argument. And you act all high and mighty when you dismiss what the Arab world thinks about a professed "Christian nation" and their "born-again" President invading and occupying two middle eastern countries simultaneously. Your slip is showing even more.

[Elmergantry]

71. they call themselves

Jihadists do they not? Religious warrior. So not wrong to call them what they are

[Darb]

73. If you are short sighted. I am with the President.

Lumping the entire muslim world into the terrorist box is fundamentally a dumb idea. The Republicans agree with you whole heartedly, though, so you can find consolation in that nugget.

[Elmergantry]

74. since the vast majority

Of terrorist Are muslim and are declaring to be doing their deeds for islam, i dont think it is unfair to say that todays terrorism is islamic. Why are afraid to call a spade a spade?

[Darb]

75. Not afraid, smart.

You sound like Melania, except it's not Michelle that you are plagiarizing, it's the teabaggers.

Why do the "Islamic terrorists" kill their fellow muslims?

[Elmergantry]

77. because there

Are differences within islam. But the one thing they have in common is the belief that those who dont believe in their particular version are apostates who should be killed. Btw we can debate without the insults. Have u noticed i am pulling it off?

[Darb]

78. Stop calling them teabaggers?

Why?

[Elmergantry]

79. stop comparing me

To trump et al. Does nothing for you argument

[Darb]

80. It is well known who plays that game.

The "you can't win unless you call it what it is.....radical Islamic terrorism" game.

I am on the side of President Obama. I think he has a better approach than the baggers, Trump. et. al.

[Elmergantry]

81. seems odd.

What is to be gained by ignoring the obvious?

Btw clinton said she has no problem calling it islamic terrorism. I like her approach better.

[Darb]

82. Seems odd.

The similarities and pugnaciousness.

[Elmergantry]

83. so you cant answer.

Ok

[Darb]

84. I'll answer your ridiculous and obviously

well tainted question. What is obvious is that you are insisting upon taking the teabagger line with this and will not take no for an answer. What is also obvious is that you cannot do simple math using simple arabic numerals. The math says that a small, small, small percentage of people of the Islamic faith are contributing to the terrorism of which you so persistently whine, again, just like many others that I know whom are less than informed. This tiny minority of violent malcontents can use any excuse they would like to lash out at the west for any number of reasons. But what is wise, and prudent, and quite frankly safer, is to call them terrorists, and not to lump the entire Muslim world in with these assholes, like you, and curiously, the fuckfaces on the right want to do because you, and they, believe you are tougher, and smarter, and have bigger penises than they do, I suspect.

So, your choosing, and the teabaggers, curiously, choosing to whine about not putting "Islamic" in front of "terrorist" is nothing more than a cavemanish reaction to a smart, forward-thinking policy of not doing stupid shit in order to prove you have a large johnson, or claim to have one, or insinuate that you have one.

You see, intelligent people do not run around trying to pick fights with cavemen by insulting them and agitating them. But other cavemen do.

[prayin4rain]

33. In what way do you think the truck driver was affected by the Iraq war? n/t

[muriel_volestrangler]

41. Tunisian-French nationality

Not 'offspring' or 'survivor' of Iraq.

[Bonx]

43. This is generic enough that it could be stickied as the default head-in-sand response

to anything bad that happens.

[Darb]

48. Do you remember what happened in Fallujah in 11-12/2004?

Whiskey Pete ring a bell? How old were these crazies back then?

[lunatica]

49. You're absolutely right on!

I've been thinking this since they declared war on Afghanistan less than a month after 9/11/2001. And it really hit home for me when the media started gearing up for glorious war, war, war against Iraq in 2003.

People on DU were never fooled.

[Gabi Hayes]

53. I was thinking about starting a similar thread the other day:

offer up to ISIS....EVERYBODY who signed the PNAC letter, and other egregious contributors to the phony war, like Judy Miller and the rest of her media collaborators, lying neocons, you name it.

tell ISIS they're welcome to do what they like, publicly, if they want to, if that will get them to stop taking it out on the rest of the world.

it could HAPpen!

[Gabi Hayes]

54. check this thread while I try to find the one I did awhile ago, regarding

Bushco's failure to nail Zarqawi when they new of his location LONG before they did their shock'n'awe schtick

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/nada-bakos-how-zarqawi-went-from-thug-to-isis-founder/

[Gabi Hayes]

55. they knew where Zarqawi was, and ignored CIA pleas to go get him:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/9/8/244417/-

Let's not forget that while the story about Sandy Berger not allowing the CIA and Northern Alliance to capture or kill bin-Laden is a complete fabrication, the story about Bush not letting the CIA and Pentagon take out Zarqawi really did happen.

The Pentagon drew up still another attack plan, and for the third time, the National Security Council killed it.

Military officials insist their case for attacking Zarqawi's operation was airtight, but the administration feared destroying the terrorist camp in Iraq could undercut its case for war against Saddam.

Or this :

"Almost every day we sent a package to the White House that had overhead imagery of the house he was staying in. It was a terrorist training camp . . . experimenting with ricin and anthrax . . . any collateral damage there would have been terrorists."

It has been the most important ignored story of Bush's time in office. The he said-she said nature of The Downing Street Memo may be hard to soundbite, but By the simple fact that Bush could've killed a terrorist, but allowed him to live as an excuse for war is straight forward and incredibly damning.The story about Bush Playing Politics With Terror (should be the Dems attack slogan by the way)should be a talking point for every Candidate.allowing Zarqawi to hideout in the Kurdish region of Iraq and develop cyanide and ricin Bush took a chance that AQ could've unleashed a massive attack in Europe. Luckily, it was POLICE WORK -- that horrible "law and order" that doesn't stop terrorism -- that prevented the attack.

Four months later, intelligence showed Zarqawi was planning to use ricin in terrorist attacks in Europe.
<snip>

In January 2003, the threat turned real. Police in London arrested six terror suspects and discovered a ricin lab connected to the camp in Iraq.

So just to be clear, Bush knew Zarqawi was part of AQ, and that they were developing poisons for an attack in Europe, but chose not to attack because he wanted to be able to claim an Iraqi connection to AQ. The irony is that new information shows that while Bush was ignoring Zarqawi, it was Saddam who actually was trying to capture or kill him.

It said al-Zarqawi was in Baghdad from May until late November 2002. But "postwar information indicates that Saddam Hussein attempted, unsuccessfully, to locate and capture al-Zarqawi and that the regime did not have a relationship with, harbor, or turn a blind eye toward Zarqawi."

[geek tragedy]

58. suggest you watch The Battle of Algiers

France, Islam and colonialism go way back, and it's still complicated.